Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A .577 with Great History - a Rare find

Hello All,

Since many of you enjoy reading about rifles with "stories", I've posted this information about a Double Rifle that I acquired in late 2013. I love rifles with stories, and I really enjoy researching them.

Back in 2013 while I was searching high and low for a 577 BPE to add to my collection, I ran across a "story" from early in 2001. It was about a rifle that had all the things that everyone wants in a fine double rifle. I call them the "Lucky Seven". Here they are, not neccessarily in any order.

First, a very fine World renown Maker.

Second, a document from the World renown Maker that substantiates the original specifications.

Third, a Famous Owner.

Forth, a document from the World renown Maker that it was shipped directly to the Famous Owner.

Fifth, a documented history of use by the Famous Owner.

Sixth, a book written by the Famous Owner giving an account of the rifle's use.

Seventh, a picture in the book showing the Famous Owner holding the Double rifle.

The rifle I found is a John Dickson double rifle in 577 caliber.













(continued)

Per the original hand written John Dickson ledger, it was originally built in 1868 with the following specifications:



Since the original ledger enty is written in quill pen and hard to read, I've translated it below.



What wonderful information!

But, it is no longer a 12-bore, it is now a .577 caliber. This is unusual. However, the Barrels are marked "577EX" and "AH7186".



As I have learned, "AH" with a number, typically references Alex Henry, and the rifling in the barrels of this rifle, is Alex Henry type. A call to Dickson and McNaughton in Scotland with a request to search the Alex Henry ledger indicated that Ledger serial numbers stopped well before the AH7186 number. But, the Ledger also contained some unregistered numbers for after-market work. And there, the number 7186 was listed. It read:



(continued)

And again, since the original ledger enty is written in quill pen and hard to read, I've translated it.



This 577 double rifle is in the "rare" caliber 20-.577. This was a proprietary cartridge designed by the well known Scottish firm of Alex Henry. It is a 2 3/4" 20-gauge brass shotgun cartridge that is necked down to accept a .577 bullet.



Although I was originally looking for a .577 BPE, (black powder express) this rifle is actually a true "Nitro Express" being proved for 70 grains of "rifleite" which is an early form of cordite. This is the same powder charge as the standard .577 NE. These barrels were never intended for black powder.

And the Alexander Henry Ledger documents that this rifle was shipped to Captain M. McNeill.

Malcolm McNeill was born on January 30, 1866, the son of Lt-Col A.C. McNeill. In 1885, when he was only 19, he went into the British army. He served in several African campaigns and also in World War One. McNeill won several medals and awards during his Military Service.




Unfortunately, Capt. McNeill died in France on June 3, 1917 during WWI. He is buried in Mont Huon Military Cemetery, Le Treport, France.



During his Military career, McNeill was also a big game hunter. Many of his hunting trophies are displayed in a museum in his home town of Oban, Scotland.

In addition, he also authored a book about his Military life and his hunting trips in Somaliland. The book is entitled, "In Pursuit of the Mad Mullah--Service and Sport in the Somali Protectorate." (printed 1902). In the book Captain McNeill tells of being sent to Africa's Somaliland. Before going to Africa in November of 1900, he purchased the Dickson / Henry so he would have an adequate big game hunting rifle.

The front plate in the book has a photograph of the McNeill sitting with this 20-.577 cradled in his arms.



(continued)

In the book we have Capt. Malcolm McNeill himself, talking directly to us, telling of his using this rifle during his adventures with it in Africa. He tells how he killed 3 man-eating Lions, 2 with this exact rifle.



When you read, his writing is just like he was talking to you and telling you his story. You can almost hear him speaking to you "out loud" in your mind.



What an adventure it must have been in 1901. State-of-the-art hunting on the backs of Camels.





In the book, McNeill tells of hearing about 4 lions that were attacking a nearby village, and his taking a few days off his Military service to pursue them. He soon found the remains of a man and two camels in the newly deserted village.

"... I had with me a 12-bore paradox, shooting 4 drachms--just the weapon for night work. ... my .577 had gone on with my camels. ..."

It happens that McNeill's 20-.577 was packed away on camels some hours away, so he set-out with his 12-bore paradox double. With it he shot the first lion. It measured 8' 4" long from nose to tip of tail.

Some time later, his camels arrived bringing him the 20-.577 Dickson/Henry. With it, he went after the other 3 lions. Quoting from page 53;

"... I also had my .577 by now, and felt quite prepared to meet anything that might turn up. ..."

McNeill continued to pursue the other 3 lions and soon came upon the second. Quoting from page 57 and 58;

"... the lion was about 130 yards distant. ..." "... I immediately knelt down and fired with my .577, taking him just in front of the shoulder. On receiving the shot he pulled up at once, nearly falling as he did so, and the left barrel knocked him clean over. He managed to crawl under a small tree about 2 or 3 yards off and to get his head round facing me. I put in another shot for safety's sake when I got to about 80 yards from him, but he did not really require it--either of the first two would have killed him. This lion was the biggest of the three I got that day, 8 feet, 10 1 /2 inches as he lay--a big, powerfully made beast, but with no mane. ..."

McNeill then started after the last two lions. They were discovered in heavy cover. Since earlier one of natives had been bitten while pursuing the second lion, McNeill opted to start a grass fire to drive them out of the cover, rather than going in after them. Quoting from page 58 and 59;

"... After some difficulty we got it fairly alight, and after it was about two-thirds burnt, out he came. He stood at the edge of the fire about 80 yards from me, broadside on, and I at once gave him the .577 in the left shoulder. On receiving the shot he turned round and charged straight back through the fire (which was about 18 or 20 yards off), burning his whiskers and singeing himself generally, but not very badly. On getting through the flames he stood on his hind legs, pawing the air, and then fell over on his side--dead. ..."

The forth lion was a female, and McNeill's hunting ethics, dictated him not to pursue her.

So, 3 out of 4 lions in an afternoon's vacation from Duty, 2 shot with my 20-.577 Dickson/Henry. One shot at 130 yards, and the other at 80 yards.

Here is a reference to Capt. Malcolm McNeill Military Service from the London Gazette. This is a very interesting bio indeed.




(continued)

Testifying to his Military Battles is this very interesting reference to Capt. Malcolm McNeill. This was a sketch that was published on October 12, 1901, in a Newspaper called the GRAPHIC. (page 485)

It shows Captain McNeill directing his forces in a Battle (detailed in his book) Note the several Martini rifles in addition to the Maxim Machine Gun. McNeill had 2 maxims under his command, a 303, and a 450 cal.

Although Capt. McNeill is shown holding a Martini rifle, I'm sure his 20-.577 was not far away.

The caption reads; "The Expedition Against The Mad Mullah: The Attack On Captain McNeill's Zariba"



I'll continue to research this rifle and p Perhaps someday I'll find some interesting information about James Robertson, the first owner who ordered it from Dickson in 1868 as a 12 bore double rifle.

And, I intend to shoot it ... a lot.

P.S.

And if all this History wasn't enough, here's another treat. This Holland & Holland Royal Grade Double Grade was presented to President Teddy Roosevelt. It is on display in the Frazier Museum in Louisville, KY.

Look who's on the list of donors. He's the 12th one down. None-other than our "Captain M. McNeill." The text is from page 28 of Teddy Roosevelt's book; "African Game Trails."

How cool is that?




I really like ths rifle .... A LOT!! I enjoy handling it almost as much as shooting it.

(finish)
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OFF THE SCALE COOL, Buckstix! Have you shot it yet, if so what charge and how does it regulate for you? The book and provenance are AWESOME!. Anyway, if you've shot it, let us know and maybe even post some targets! Congratulations sir! Love this! j

And, here's an update,

When I received the rifle, there was accompanying loading data that was dangerously "over-loaded" and continued use these loads would have harmed the rifle. However, with some scientific pressure testing I was able to find the rifle's "sweet-spot" as can be seen by my target below. Many people unwittingly abuse these old Vintage Beauties needlessly thinking they must try to wring-out every last foot-per-second, rather than doing diligence to obtain factual period data and doing pressure testing to duplicate period loadings.

Wow, hell of a group! What velocities are you getting?

Amazing stuff. Thanks for sharing.

We're definitely going to want some details of your shooting results.

What are you using for brass?

Sounds like he was a hell of a man, and what a beautiful find, congratulations.

Wonderful post !

GTC

Great post, thanks for sharing! Amazing rifle and story with the documentation to prove it all.

What is great about this, is that Captain McNell is remembered and a much loved rifle, is being shot and maybe hunted with, all most 100 years since his death!

Great find and very interesting story. Capt. McNeill would be glad to know his rifle is in good hands.

Just incredible on all points. Beyond that, words fail me.

Absolutely Capital!!!!

Thank you for the story and accompanying photos!!!!

Most enjoyable read!!!!!

Goethe was right. Life is truly the the infancy of our immortality! Thank you for keeping the spirit of the good Captain alive!

Wow!

That gun and story are off the charts cool...

I just love that kinda stuff.

Thanks for sharing.

DF

Extremely interesting! Thanks for sharing. (Although it probably is wrong to steal space on the 'fire's server that could be devoted to more useless crap about the election. )

Outstanding; thanks for sharing!

FANTASTIC! Thanks for sharing this Great Treasure with us.

I saw the story of this gun several years ago in Double Gun Journal and tracked down a copy of the book. It is a GREAT READ. He was a wonderful fellow and you have a wonderful and special heirloom. MY heart is SO envious. I can't even imagine what this special rifle must have cost you.

You sir are a VERY VERY lucky man. What a testament to a special warrior. May his soul rest in peace.

I saw where modern, paperback versions are available through Amazon. I sure would like to find one in hardcover for my collection.

Superb rifle, superb story. To say I'm envious would be an understatement.

Excellent! Thank you sir!

Dan

buckstix,

A really excellent rifle and story, and a most excellent post on your part!...

jim

Outstanding!!!! I love this stuff. What a treasure!

We banty about the term "if only this gun could sperak, I wonder what stories it would tell?"

Boys, this gun is talking and is a fabulous find.

Great find! Congratulations.

buckstix:

Thank you for sharing the pictures and stories about this great rifle and its illustrious former owner. And thanks for developing proper loads, so that the rifle may once more speak afield.

Wow thanks for the story...
Wish I knew the story behind some of my old well warn..winchesters

Beautiful rifle!! Most interesting history and story. Congratulations.

The Sutherlands battalion must have been full of great hunters, I have a photo of your man in a battalion photo, one of only two taken. In front of him is the original owner of my .318, Brigadier MacLean!!

Wonderful rifle, and a fantastic history. Being shot again.. Priceless.

Is that the original finish or has it been restored? It looks absolutely stunning. I'd love to own something like that with that much history in it.

What modern powder has the bulk,burn rate and consistency for such a large case?? Staying within the pressure parameters with enough bulk to fill the case so ignition is not a hazard or a problem and giving you the consistency for such fine regulation must have been a chore.

Blue Dot with about an inch of 5/8ths backer rod.

OH BTW, nice rifle buckstix.

Beautiful find and an awesome story to go along with it!

Very cool.

That is as good as it gets. And here I thought I was doing good by removing the recoil pad of my Sabatti .450 and putting my purchase receipt from Cabelas and my business card in the through hole in the stock. Crap now I need to write a book AND join the damn army!

Hoooooly Moooooly !!!

It's very hard to express my appreciation for the rifle, story, & THE MAN!!

Let me hasten to add my respect for your appreciation of the rifle AND your research of PROPER loading data.

K U D O S ! !


Jerry

Great read, a tip of the hat to you and your persistence on finding and maintaining the history of that fine old rifle! Well done!

Yup. This is as close as it gets to a gun speaking.

Great find and a fantastic history, but you haven't mentioned how you came about obtaining it.

Phil

Thanks for a great post on a great gun with a good story. It's always goof for a little vicarious thrill reading stuff like this, and it's reassuring to know such a fine gun and piece of history and the gunmaker's art is in good hands now. I had the pleasure of shooting a number of great old BPE doubles a friend of mine had. He was recoil shy and always enlisted me to shoot them because he knew I could give him his best and most accurate gauge of how they were really shooting. He was sharp enough to know to keep loads mild, which he was glad to do because of his own recoil intolerance. Later, he found he had a spur on his shoulder joint, and got it fixed, but that too gave him problems for years. They are VERY interesting and intriguing and just plain "different" to shoot and load for. Thanks again for taking the time to post this for us.

Hello All,

I want to thank you all for your reply and kind words about my post and my rifle. I really appreciate your comments.

A few of you had questions and I will try to answer each in reverse order as asked.

* The rifle was purchased from Lewis Drake & Assoc. as found in an ad from their web page.

* The modern Powder I use for most of my vintage double rifles is AA5744. It ignites well and similates the pressures and velocities of the day. It is also very accurate. If you email AA, they will answer questions about unpublished loading data for cartridges not found in their manual.

* I'm sure the finish of the rifle has been redone at some point in time in its long history of use since being made over 148 years ago in 1868. It was likely re-done by Alex Henry in 1901 when it was rebarreled, and perhaps subsequent to that. It was common practice "in the day" to have barrels re-blackened after each hunting adventure, as well as repaired and reconditiond as needed to be ready for the next outing.

I will continue to search for the history of the original purchaser "James Robertson, esq." from 1868. Wouldn't it be grand to find details about his hunting adventures with it as well.

Continued comments are most welcome.

Great Gun! you sure got the Hole package! great Story, Please keep us up to date one it!

Cal Pappas, author of several books on double rifles, owned that rifle at a prior date and he did the research on it. That information went along to next caretaker.
Bucky should give credit where credit is due.

After reading all Buckstix's posts on the rifle, I didn't get the impression he was taking credit for doing all the research. I even went back and re-read it after your post. He even says that a lot of the research was already done in his OP. He may not have mentioned the person responsible for doing the research but I didn't read it as anything other than Buckstix relaying the story of a cool old rifle that he bought.

From Buckstix OP:

WTF, Mike? First, I don't see where the Op "took credit" for the research and second, he bought the gun from a retail outfit who just gave him the research. But even if what you say has merit (it doesn't) does EVERY fuggin' thread on the damned place have to wind up in a pissing contest? This is a GREAT thread and your post, at least how presented, contributes nothing. j

+1

DF

IMO he should have given credit to Cal for the tedious research.

Assuming he KNEW, but even then, why? he didn't claim the research as his own. Honestly, this is picking flyshit out of pepper..

Agree...this is pretty petty. And likely stifles people from wanting to share in the future.

I for one am grateful he took the time to upload photos and share with the group. It really makes no difference if he shared who did the research for the purpose of his post...and as Jorge pointed out, that is IF he even knew who did it.

Hell, too many people I know that could afford it would shuffle it away from the light of day and never share with anyone.

Again, THANK YOU Buckstix for sharing.

IMO - this is a TURD in a churn!!


Jerry

I can't believe Cal would sell that rifle considering its condition and history. At least it seems to have a compassionate and knowledgeable caretaker. Well done, Bucky.

Well, no one has said how much money changed hands...

Not much that can't be bought for the right price...

DF

Simply superb, what a rifle and story.

Gents:
I guess I should chime in here as my name has been invoked by a mate of mine. Thanks, Mike, for keeping an eye out for me.

I owned the 20-577 double that is the subject of this thread. The history of its purchase is as follows:
Late '90s the rifle was for sale in a gun shop for $8500 in Anchorage and it was bought by a local MD.
In 2002 I traded a 1926 Cogswell and Harrison takedown Mauser-actioned .375 H&H and some money for the 20-577 from the doc.
I immediately worked to discover the history of the rifle, bought brass, dies, and a mould, found the copy of the book McNeill wrote, and a signed photo of McNeill. I wrote an article on the rifle and its history that was published in the African Hunter in 2003 or 4.
I had the rifle fitted to a case and developed loads for the rifle that shot well.
After a few years I put it up for sale via a dealer in Anchorage. A gun dealer in the Lower 48 bought it for a client of his--a dentist in Georgia. I received $13,500 for the rifle. It sold with the case, dies, brass, and the book. I kept the original photo of McNeill, original ammo, and the accessories in the case. (The reason I kept the accessories is that many dealers, including the one I sold the rifle through, have a bad habit of either keeping the accessories or selling them in a separate sale and keeping the profit).
Several years later the dentist thinned out his collection and sold this rifle, and two .600s via Lewis Drake. For this rifle, I recall Lewis was asking 15K.The .600 Army and Navy was a beautiful original rifle and his.600 Jeffery was a restock with after market engraving on it--this was reflected in the price it sold for. The A&N lives now with a doctor in Texas and the Jeffery with a fella in the southeast. Both rifles are in my book on the .600s.
I received a call from Buckstix when he was contemplating purchasing the 20-577. I was very honest with Buck and told him of several flaws of the riffle that were reasons why I decided to sell it. That was fine with him and he bought it and found some additional information on the rifle and the owner.
However, much of the history and other details were found by myself. Also, the photos here should be credited to Lewis Drake as they are his copyright.
As mentioned, the rifle has a few flaws but the history is outstanding. I have recently picked up a .500no2 with a set of shotgun barrels and a two tiered case with every accessory imaginable with a full history. And, I just sold another historical rifle--a Holland and Holland Royal in .500 bpe. The owner was a military officer and his son was an African hunter who wrote a two volume set of his safari and was speared to death by natives on his second safari. History is great and Buck has a wonderful historical rifle.
Buck--you mentioned finding info on the original owner of 1868. Contact the library of the Scottish Military Museum in Edinburgh. If Robertson was in the military they have his record--could be a listing of his name and rank and years of service, or very elaborate such as McNeill's. Also the Mormon church has genealogical records of tens of millions. Third place to look is Scotland Yard.
Buck also mentioned the reloading data he received was too hot. It came from me, although he didn't mention my name. I respectfully disagree. 75 grains of 4198 and the approximate velocity obtained were correct for this rifle. Buck's velocity is very slow for the rifle but it closely follows the 75% rule (in reverse). However in nearly 30 years I have never, nor have I ever seen or heard of, a double shooting such a small group at 50 yards. 75% rules, both the original intent and the reverse, while shoot well and acceptable, don't seem to equal the grouping from the regulated load. The 75-grain charge of IMR 4198 was the best grouping I could develop--less was apart and more was cross firing.
Just my two cents...
Cal
calpappas.com
PS. I just repurchased the Cogswell .375. But, I ask myself, what am I to do with a rifle with only one barrel?

For those interested, here is the article I wrote in 2003 as published in the African Hunter magazine:

JOHN DICKSON 2894 and ALEX HENRY 7186--ONE IN THE SAME

text by Cal Pappas

photos by Doug E. Griffin and Matt DeVincenzi

The theory of evolution perhaps came to be a fact when I began to trade and sell my Winchesters as double rifles began to call. The clarion call was irresistible and doubles have become the object of my affection. (After all, the most elaborate Winchester is nothing more than a mass-production rifle with embellishments added.) My interest in firearms evolved to the highest level with the English doubles and I have never had a moment of regret.

One aspect of my general interest in firearms that carried over to my new -found love of doubles was that of a duality of the specific era (late 1800s to early 1900s) and the history of each individual firearm. Now, a double rifle has found its way into my possession that needs to be shared with you. Not only is this rifle unique in caliber and configuration but it is also a gold mine of history. Before going into the details let me relate the circumstances on its acquisition.

The last non-double rifle I planned to dispose of was a classic Cogswell and Harrison Mauser bolt action in the .375 H&H magnum cartridge that dated to 1926. It sported a Griffin and Howe side mount, three leaf express sight, a 26-inch barrel, cheek piece stock, and a desirable takedown feature. Cased in oak and leather it was a difficult one to part with. What awaited was by far more of a treasure.

The double rifle that was soon to me mine (after a trade with a bit of boot added) was a John Dickson exposed hammer, Jones underlever rifle in the rare caliber 20-.577. This cartridge was a proprietary round by the Scottish firm of Alex Henry. It is a 2 3/4" 20-gauge brass shotgun cartridge necked down to accept a .577 bullet (.584” dia.). The powder charge was the same as the standard .577 3-inch at 165 grains (six drams), although one is known to the author with a proof of 7 drams, and a few have a nitro proof stamp.

The rifle sported 28-inch barrels, a straight grip stock with a semi-pistol grip formed by the bottom strap, a cheek piece, and recoil pad. The action was finely engraved and the rifle had undergone an excellent refinish sometime in the past--stock finish, case colors, and barrel blue were in excellent condition. Last of all the Dickson rested in an oak and leather case with accessories. (I've never missed the .375...much).

Upon acquisition of any new rifle I first attempt to learn about its history. The summer of 2002 seemed to be a good time to so.

I was on vacation from my job as a high school history teacher and was spending the next eight weeks in a full-length leg cast due to a complete rupture of my left Achilles tendon sustained on the last day of a hunting trip in South Africa the week prior. (Just before I departed for my hunt the Dickson became mine.)

A letter was faxed to Dickson and McNaughton (a fairly new corporation encompassing most of the famous Scottish makers of the past century). A reply was short coming but upon reading the copy of the Dickson ledger I was disheartened. The rifle, my prized rifle, was made for a James Robertson, Esq. in 1868 as a "double central fire breech-loading rifle, number 2894, gauge 12." That's right a 12-bore rifle! Did I have a non-original rebarrel?

The ledger continued with the stock dimensions and the "weight of barrels 5 3/4 lb., length 27 inches. Back lock, charge of powder 3 drams, stock unvarnished, spur guard." I now knew the proper name for the grip formed from the bottom strap--a spur guard. But I was saddened by the 12-gauge rifle barrels with the 27-inch length.

But wait! On the barrel flats was another number: AH7186. Knowing the 20-.577 cartridge was developed by Alex Henry and, to the best of my knowledge, was not released to the trade I reached for the phone. My call to Dickson and McNaughton came with a request to search the Alex Henry ledger. (I must state the folks in the Scottish and English gun and rifle trade are the most polite and willing to assist).

The sad news (I was told) was the serial numbers stopped well before the AH number, 7186, of my rifle. However, before a tear could fall, my new found friend in Scotland said, "One moment, here are some unregistered numbers for after-market work." Then he read to specifications of number 7186. "New barrels to Dickson rifle, 20-.577, 28 inch steel, nitro proved, upright sight--standing and two leaves, 1-2-300 yards, usual front sight--plate tip, 26th Nov., 1900, Kynoch solid drawn shell, 70 grs. rifleite, 650 gr. bullet, nickel coated soft nose, barrel weight 7 lbs. 10 oz. for Cap't McNeill." A copy of the ledger would soon be mailed.

I looked at the new object of my affection. Everything I enjoy about double rifles was here--quality, originality, and history. Since it would be a while before I was able to walk to the range and shoot it I sent if off to my friends at Griffin and Howe in Bernardsville, New Jersey (908-766-2287) for an inspection and a replacement of the recoil pad. I also placed and order to Rocky Mountain Cartridge in Cody Wyoming (307-587-9693) for two boxes of brass cartridge cases and to 4D-CH tool (740-397-7214) for a set of dies and a shell holder.

A good friend in Alaska who is also perhaps the finest machinist I know made a chamber cast for the reloading die specifications as well as a bullet mould to the approximate weight and shape of the original projectile. I requested a 650-grain bullet that I planned to cast from wheel weights. Two days later I received a call, "I have your mould ready. It casts at 647 grains. Is that OK?"

The 2002 summer drew long in my full-leg plaster. I cast a lifetime supply of bullets for all of my rifles and lubed and sized the same. I was unable to pursue my outdoors passions in the 24-hour daylight in Alaska as I have done for the past twenty years. All of my hunting trips (moose, caribou, black and grizzly bear, as well as a permit for Dall sheep in one of the finest areas of the state) had to be canceled.

All facets of double rifle ownership that I enjoy were coming together but there was still one more question to be answered--who was Cap't McNeill? Well, I wasn't going anywhere so I began to follow this route. A letter to the Scottish Military Museum was promptly answered by Ms. Edith Phillip from the library. If gold had been struck in the factory ledgers, I was about to uncover the Mother Lode!

Captain Malcolm McNeill was born on January 30, 1866, the son of Lt-Col A.C. McNeill. He entered the army in 1885 when he was 19, serving in several African campaigns and World War One. He won several medals and awards and died suddenly on June 3, 1917. (It is not stated if McNeill died of illness, war wounds, killed in action, etc...). His main recreation was big game hunting, fishing and shooting and a museum stands in Oban, Scotland (his home) with his hunting trophies. And it gets better. He authored a book about his military life and hunting trips in Somaliland. Entitled, "In Pursuit of the Mad Mullah--Service and Sport in the Somali Protectorate,” the book only had one printing (1902). I had to locate a copy.

My mom has a bookseller friend in (the People's Republic of) Massachusetts and she asked him to do an internet search. Three copies were found. The two in England were not in the best of condition. Johannesburg, South Africa, was home to the best copy and it was soon on its way to my home in Anchorage as a birthday gift. A framed photo of the captain was located in London and it, too, was expressed to me.

Captain McNeill was scheduled to go to India in late 1900 but had a last minute order change that was to see him off to Africa's Somaliland. He purchased the 20-.577 in late November of that year so he would have an adequate rifle for his big game hunting. "...just as I was preparing to return to India, I received notice from the War Office to the effect that I had been selected for service with the Somaliland Field Force, and that I was to report myself without delay at the Foreign Office" (p.2-3). McNeill had served (and hunted) in Somaliland in the mid-1890s and his dream to return was fulfilled.

I had thoughts of Captain McNeill's book filled with stories of man-eating lions and charging elephants all stopped with his trusty 20-.577. Of course the book would be decorated with photographs of the captain, his rifle, and his large and dangerous trophies he brought to bag. Reality was almost as good!

The front piece of the book has a photograph of the captain sitting with the 20-.577 cradled in his arms. No game photos are printed with my rifle but one is printed of McNeill's first lion (one of four man-eaters he was after) killed with his 12-gauge Paradox double. The story is a good one.

While on a mission to capture the renegade Mahomed Abdullah the Captain was told of four man-eating lions that were terrorizing a small village. He detoured from his mission to investigate and found the remains of a man and two camels in the newly deserted village. "I had with me a 12-bore paradox, shooting 4 drachms--just the weapon for night work--and a .275 sporting Mauser. The latter was hardly the rifle for lion shooting, but I had brought it for dibtag, and my .577 had gone on with my camels" (p.45).

The first lion he took (with his 12-bore) was 8' 4" long. His camels arrived soon after and he was able to now take his 20-.577 in pursuit of the remaining three lions. "I also had my .577 by now, and felt quite prepared to meet anything that might turn up" (p.53).

Upon successfully tracking lion number two, McNeill "...immediately knelt down and fired with my .577, taking him just in front of the shoulder. On receiving the shot he pulled up at once, nearly falling as he did so, and the left barrel knocked him clean over. He managed to crawl under a small tree about 2 or 3 yards off and to get his head round facing me. I put in another shot for safety's sake when I got to about 80 yards from him, but he did not really require it--either of the first two would have killed him. This lion was the biggest of the three I got that day, 8 feet, 10 1/2 inches as he lay--a big, powerfully made beast, but with no mane" (p.57-58).

The remaining two lions were out of sight in the tall grass. Later that day McNeill bagged his third lion--the second with the 20-.577. Unable to flush the beasts out, McNeill started a grass fire. "He stood at the edge of the fire about 80 yards from me, broadside on, and I at once gave him the .577 in the left shoulder. On receiving the shot he turned round and charged straight back through the fire (which was about 18 or 20 yards off), burning his whiskers and singeing himself generally, but not very badly. On getting through the flames he stood on his hind legs, pawing the air, and then fell over on his side--dead" (p.59). The last lion, a female, departed for safer grounds and was not seen again.

I was one happy camper! The remainder of the book is divided into McNeill's military exploits and small game hunting with his .275.

Now it is spring 2003 and nearing the end in perhaps the warmest winter on record in Alaska. McNeill's book has been read and reread, the dies are here, the brass is here, the rifle has returned from Griffin and Howe, and I have reloading information from a friend in Florida who also has a 20-.577. (His rifle is a Holland and Holland, regulated for black powder, is a best quality weapon, and very accurate).

My prior experience with light nitro and nitro-for-black loadings has shown IMR 4198 the best choice. In most instances I have found accurate loadings will result with a grain-for-grain charge. Since my rifle was proved for 70 grains of rifleite (an early cordite) I began with a starter load of 60 grains of 4198 with kapok filler. I increased the charge 2.5 grains with each 4-shot string. Shooting through a PACT chronograph I recorded the velocity as well as noted the left and right pattern on the 50-yard target.

All 4-shot groups patterned quite well but the rifle shot several inches high at 50 yards. (A bit of filing on the rear sight should take care of this minor problem) The load settled on was 75 grains of 4198 with a tuft of kapok pillow stuffing to keep the powder next to the large rifle magnum primer. The wheelweight cast bullets of 647 grains exit the barrels at an average of 1743 fps. The muzzle energy calculates to 4366 fpe and John Taylor's knock out value is 94. The recoil is a bit heavy but manageable in the 12-pound rifle. The bores pick up a bit of lead due to the pits remaining from the cordite days. Woodleigh 650-grain jacketed bullets should solve this second minor problem.

What does the future hold? 2003 was spent hunting with a .450 no2 double and saw success with a cape buffalo, giraffe, and an arctic grizzly bear. Next year the 20-.577 may see a spring bear hunt or perhaps a water buffalo hunt down under. Whatever happens, it will be a joy to take Captain McNeill's rifle to the field after a 100+ year rest.


One last note: due to the complexities of reloading and the condition of antique rifles neither the author or publisher of this journal makes any claim as to the safety of the loads listed herein. They have only been proven to work in the author's rifle. Have your antique rifle checked by a competent gunsmith before firing. Good shooting!

Post Script: The long, cold, and dark winter nights are here and I’m reading one of my favorite stories. Teddy Roosevelt’s African Game Trails has been my companion on more than one subzero night at my cabin over the years. This time, something struck me as if hit by lightning. How could I have missed it before and now have it standout so significantly? There it was, right in front of my eyes, in the “List of zoologists and sportsmen who are donors of a double elephant rifle to the Hon. Theodore Roosevelt, President U.S.A.” (p.28-9). The rifle was the elegant Holland and Holland Royal .500-450. On the list, accompanied by famous names such as Rothschild, Buxton, and Selous, was... Captain M. McNeill!

It not get any better than this!

Sir we do not know each other but I TIP my HAT to you for BOTH,

The long post....
and
The detailed history of that rifle.

Admiration all around! !


Jerry

Hello All,

Once again I wish to thank you for all the kind replies to my post.

My intent of this post was to share with all of you, my happiness of owning a wonderful rifle with a unique history. I hope you all enjoyed it.

Unfortunately this post, like so many others, has gone astray. So, I find it necessary to clarify a few facts.

I find it a bit odd that 5744 pistol powder supposedly gives him the pressures/velocities of early nitro powder.

Another gent from 'down under' uses 93 grains of Varget to light up his 20/577 and get 1650fps out of it with about 8 tons of pressure. 10T was the accepted pressure for DR's.

I'm personally using 64 grains of IMR4198 with a 650 Woodie
out of my 577 3" BPE and it likes 92 grains of Varget using the same bullet.

Thanks Carl and Stix, VERY MUCH for what is arguably the best post on this forum in YEARS. I still don't see where Buckstix did anything wrong. Carl?

Hmmmmm, I suddenly have a feeling that Buckstix is an old acquaintance with the initials HWS?

Maker of Buckstix flash hole cleaners, bullpup rifles, and at one time field trail labs?

Am I right?

Buck:
As to the history, follow my suggestions for the Military museum, Scotland Yard, and the Mormon Church to get info on the original owner. Between the three, you should find something on Robertson. The local Mormon church either has, or can direct you to another office that has, a huge computer base of their records. I would bet they have Robertson's name listed and his family. It would take some time as you would have to approximate his age and his location would be the UK--all guess work for 1868 when he bought the rifle. Begin looking in Scotland first, then down in England.

I do remember we spoke of the rifle when you were thinking of buying it but I don't know how you got my email or phone. We discussed the fantastic history of the rifle, some of the caliber, and the non matching hammers, pitted bores (mentioned in my article), restock and poor inletting at the top strap and Deeley latch, refinish, and being muzzle heavy. (I thought all UK rifles were balanced well but I just picked up a .577-500 no2 bpe with very heavy barrels that also balances far ahead of the hinge pin--although it balances just right with the shotgun barrels). Notice the position of the front sling eye in the photo of McNeill and where it is now. If memory serves, it is slightly different in its location.

As to the off face, I'm lost on this one. It was fine when I had it and shot it for targets. I know it went through three dealers and at least one owner who shot it. I don't have any knowledge of it going anywhere else, but it was out of my hands after I deposited it to the dealer in Anchorage. Later, I did speak with the owner in Georgia about reloading for it.

Anyway, look up Robertson and let us know if you find anything. I didn't bother to do this as McNeill owned the rifle as it is. Since it was no longer a 12-bore, I guess my interest was not stimulated to look further.
Cal

Buck?

Hello hatari,

Thanks for the reply.

Well, Hmmmmm, ... HWS ?.... perhaps, who are you? I dont know a lot of people from Atlanta.......anymore.

Funny who you might run into at the Campfire.

PM sent

Confirmed that Buckstix is the guy I know.

He's been a gun nut, and an entertaining writer in his past lives. Used to have stories in Gun Digest. He is a good addition around here. I hope he posts more good stuff.

Doc please advise yer Pard about the "suck levels" of envy 'cuz I have to say that he Ludicrous Sucks!!!

Ah Hell, I'll do it so he duzn't get offended

Standard envy-you suck
much higher envy-officially suck
mind blowing envy-turbo suck
absolute blinding envy,highest level-Ludicrous suck

Yeah, that falls into the Ludicrous Sux category. I couldn't get much greener oogling that rifle and story.

Hello hatari,

Thanks for the reply.

Its nice to hook-up with you again after all these years.

Please check out my many web pages giving the History of two World Famous Wisconsin Gunsmiths, and several of their rifles that are in my collection / study.

http://yostaction.com/vanadestine.html

http://yostaction.com/yosthistory.html

Here is my web page telling how I hunt Wisconsin whitetail deer with a cannon. - a real cannon - and how I went about building it, in memory of a "Medal of Honor" soldier.

http://buckstix.com/howitzer.htm

This is a "how to" page telling how to hunt feral cats - with a Mortar. Peta hates this web page.

http://buckstix.com/CoehornMortarHunt.htm

And here is the info about one of my books. It tells the story of a Famous Wisconsin Custom Knifemaker.

http://yostaction.com/vanadestine.html

enjoy

Oh hell, all you had to say was the mortar/cat guy.

Hello 280shooter,

Thanks for the reply.

So, you have seen my Mortar/Cat page? I'm closing-in on a million hits on my Howitzer Hunt page.

Very cool .577 Buckstix!

Just read your howitzer deer, and mortar cat stories, and damned near pizzed my pants! Hilarious stuff. Nice job!!!

Jeff

Hello akjeff.

Thanks for the reply.

I had some fun with those web sites, but at a cost. I've had the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources Game Wardens visit me twice about hunting with a cannon, and I've had the Wisconsin State Attorney General weigh in on a Public Petition to the Governor, to close down my Cat Hunt page because of animal cruelty. Seems like the "stick-in-the-butt" Government officials in this State, don't have a sense of humor.

Not to mention Hate Mail from PETA.

I've even gotton Hate Mail from the "Spider Lovers of America" about my Camel Spider webb page. (another page, just short of a million hits)

http://buckstix.com/camelspider.htm

Oh well.

I'd seen the howitzer deer hunt web page years ago, but had never seen the feral cat hunting with a mortar. The mortar page is hilarious.

Hello 458 Lott.

Thanks for the reply.

That's the page that had the Cops stop by my house. Apparently the California PETA people contacted them.

The Cops wanted me to prove that all the cats was unharmed. I just laughed and asked if I could take their pictures for my web page. That started a whole new level of discussion.

I explained; "Life is a sense of Humor test - in the end we find out if we passed or failed."

As I told Buckstix, he should write more. He has a wicked sense of humor that fits in well aroundhere.

If you haven't read the links to the Canon and Mortar satire, you should for a good laugh.

I am sure the PETA people had virgin birth over the feral cat story!

Hello hatari,

Thanks for the reply.

I enjoy all the feedback from my web pages, both good and bad.

My favorite page is the Camel Spider page. I never knew I could get do much "hate mail" from spider lovers.


Take a look at some of the stories submitted by my readers.

http://www.buckstix.com/camel%20spider%20stories.htm

I'm probably 25-30 of those hits and have sent many that way. Great stuff.

Hello 280shooter,

Thanks for the reply.

When people ask me what kind of "cannon" I hunt with, I direct them to my web page.

BTW, 280 is my favorite small caliber.

Hello War_Eagle

Thanks for the reply.

- Yes, that pretty much sums it up!
.
.

Thanks for sharing. That is very interesting.

Hello hanco,

Thanks for the reply.

I love telling the story about this wonderful double.

Two way street, that...

We really enjoy reading about it.

Thanks for the fine and inspiring text and pics.

GTC

Hello crossfireoops,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll be hunting with this rifle again this Fall. I'll post pictures if I'm succcessful.

Wow, just caught up with the entire thread - that is an incredible find along with solid documentation. So much to absorb. Take care of that rifle!

Hello bigwhoop,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, this is one of my favorite double rifles. Its really neat to shoot something that actually hunted in Africa and killed 2 man eating lions.

buck, you likely saw my post regarding envy and suckitude levels. I have an inkling of your position. I love Sharps Rifles. I own an original 45/110 that was actually used as a buffler rifle in Wyoming from 1878-1883. I WISH that I knew the hunters name. Lost in time. I did go back to the region in Wyoming in 2012 and killed a buffler with the rifle. Hard to describe how it feels to look over the sights at its intended game after over a century. It is a real gas to be able to do things like that as I am certain you know. Thank you for a glimpse of adventure and history you lucky bastard!!!

Good to see you around!

Hunting season starts soon......

Hello hatari,

Thanks for the reply.

Too many favorite guns to take hunting, and not enough season for them all. Its really getting hard to choose which ones go - and which ones have to stay home.

this is probably the best thread I've read here in at least 3 years

Hello acooper1983

Thanks for the reply.

And thank you for the compliment about my thread.