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Do all savage ML II muzzle loaders have smokeless capability?? if not, how do i tell which ones are smokeless and which ones aren't? Saw one in the shop the other day and not sure its "smokeless". It definately used 209 primers. I googled the manual, but didnt see smokeless powder mentioned?? Any idea of value for one that looks like it has normal hunting wear but in good shape otherwise? It is stainless with a low end nikon scope.

Last edited by RatherBHuntin; 03/19/16.
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IIRC, Cabelas marketed some Savage MLIIs that were for BP and subs only. From what I understand there was little difference between it and the smokeless rated models but Cabelas didn't want the liability they associated with smokeless muzzleloading. Seems like the barrel was a bit longer and the breech plug was stainless instead of blued CM. I've never seen one so don't know how they're marked.


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The one i am looking at has the accu trigger and i believe is a modl 10 ML II. ???? Just wondering if it is smokeless, it doesnt say smokeless on the barrel anywhere..???

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To my knowledge* all Savage ML-II's were smokeless except the Cabelas/Savage which was designated ML-BP. The ML-II's were not marked "smokeless", but the ML-BP model was reportedly marked "black powder only" on the barrel. If there's no BP warning you're safe with smokeless.


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Your google skills need improvement then because its right on page 13 in the MLII manual. SR4759, N110 and 5744 are all smokeless powders.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/manuals/manual_muzzleloader_10mlii.pdf

Stainless MLIIs are going for top dollar now. Savage did not make any in SS during the last one or two production runs and now they dont make any MLIIs at all.

Even the 10ML-BP sells for top dollar. Its the same damn barrel Savage used on the MLII except its longer. It was 26" iirc and the MLII barrel was 24". It has the same large shank as all late model MLIIs also. The breach plug in the 10ML-BP was 4140 but that year Savage switched to a hex head plug. All MLIIs after the 10ML-BP had the larger 4.40 spacing, large shank and the new style hex breach plug.

SS models are easily going for over $750 these days. Ive seen them sell for $1000+ new in box.

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Another manual.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/manuals/manual_muzzleloader_10mlbp.pdf

Use with only black power or black powder subs starts on page #1. Nowhere does it recommend smokeless.


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Yeah, that is the ML-BP manual. BP stands for Black Powder. That is the Cabelas version of the MLII. Cabelas refused to sell a smokeless ML so Savage made them a version without the smokeless load data in the manual and specified BP only.

Did the barrel of that Savage say "Black powder only" on a 26" barrel?...If not, its not a BP model.

There is one other obvious difference you can spot in an instant. The ramrod guide is different on the 10ML-BP.
[Linked Image]

The 10MLII looks like this.

[Linked Image]

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Thank you!

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Just a FYI

If you get a MLII or ML-BP, both can be converted to a smokeless 45cal pretty easily and they make a fantastic shooter. Luke at smokelessmz sells the prefit barrels and any part you may want.

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I took the plunge on a used, stainless model 10 ML II. The rod guide is missing and the front sight is gone. It has a low end nikon scope and a camoulflaged stock. Dealer wanted wanted $159 but i talked him down to $125 out the door with a hard case😀😀😀. I just hope it is really "smokless". The writing on the barrel says something like "use only recommended loads and powder". If its what i think it is, i almost feel bad for the gun shop owner😀...
I will post pics later. I just want to be sure of what i have before i try the recommended smokeless powder loads.

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What special tools do i need to disassemble and clean this thing?

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3/8" socket for breach plug...Old style plug requires a special too.

Allen wrench for stock bolts and vent liner removal. Front trigger allen screw is your bolt release. Back it out and the bolt pulls right out.

5/32" or #21 drill bit to clean carbon out of the breach plug.

Use whatever center fire solvent you like when using smokeless powder. You dont really need to clean the bore very often and they shoot better dirty anyway. Keeping the breach plug clean and making sure the vent liner is still .035 or less are the two main things to watch.


BTW if you have any issues with the barrel, I know where to buy plenty of 50cal take offs pretty cheap. Hopefully the previous owner only used smokeless and chance of rust is really low.

Just the action alone is well worth what you paid. Boyds sells cheap laminiate stocks if you dont like the tupperware stock. HS Precision and Mcmillain also sell stocks that will fit but they aint cheap.

Get your butt over to Dougs message board and read all you can. Lots of guys there will be glad to help. Dont worry about the powder. The ML-BP has the exact same quality barrel as the MLII. The only real difference is its 2" longer. Im sure one of the guys on Dougs can hook you up with the ram rod guide. Lots of us changed out barrels to 45cal and never used the left over guide.

Go here http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/

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Powders you want to find for the MLII

VV N110 (awesome all around powder especially for a 250gr)SUPER clean
VV N120 (only for 300gr-325gr) also super clean
Reloder7 (only for 300gr-325gr) kinda dirty but very reliable with a 300gr
H4198 (only for 300gr-350gr)
SR4759 (great all around powder and only a little dirty)
XMP 5744 (really dirty and slow fps but its the easiest to ignite)

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Thank you so much for all the feedback. I will check out the link. Looks like i have a lot of learning to do to become confident operating this thing. Lookin forward to it.

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$125?? Wow, you oughta feel bad!! You got the buy of the decade! Would also recommend getting on Dougs and doing some reading.


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Here are pics of the breach plug area. Looks like I will need a "special tool". Any suggestions on where to find what I need? Thanks for any feedback.



[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by RatherBHuntin; 03/22/16.
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Yes thats the "special tool" plug. You can ask if anyone has one they can spare on dougs or get one from Savage. I would recommend you replace it with a hex head plug.

Hard to tell but it also looks like the plug is nearly filled with carbon too.

Luke at Arrowhead sells the OEM plug or a OEM plug with a tungsten carbide bushing. The bushing last a really really long time compared to vent liners.
http://www.smokelessmz.com/upgrades.html

Hankins rifle also sells the plugs and his are SS.
http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/...pplies/muzzleloader-building-components/

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That's probably why the guy sold it, he was getting misfires with that plugged flash channel! The ML-II I have now came to me that way. I'll look and see if I have an extra wrench. I changed mine over to the hex head.


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Tmich, thank you for the offer. I will be glad to pay you for it if you have one to spare.
I think i will upgrade with some of the links. Seems like they would be good investments over the long haul.

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There are lots of upgrades for the Savage. The MLII is basically a Savage model 10 without the bolt lugs. Strongly consider the bushing plug. In a 50cal those bushings will likely last for years. Ive worn out vent liners in well under 50 shots but they are not very expensive. Roughly $3-5 each depending on brand and easy to replace.

You might want to take a couple measurement too. Knowing your stock bolt spacing and shank size might come in handy later on. There were 2 stock bolt spacings, 4.27" and 4.40" Also known as staggered or center feed spacings.

There were also standard and large shanks. The shank is the part that screws into the action. The quickest way to determine what size the barrel shank is on your rifle is to measure the length of your barrel nut. Standard shank nuts are 7/8" (0.875") in length, whereas large shank nuts are 5/8" (0.625") in length.

Click to see the pic
http://www.savageshooters.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=619&d=1327338746

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I have a ratcheting EZ Tool. Nice to service the breech plug without removing the action from the stock.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/thread/7/pocampo-ez-tool

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Thomas hasnt been making the EZ-tool for years. Ive got one too and they do work fantastic. Ive got a couple old Rick Bibby (may he RIP) plugs and a PA Machine old style plug. I keep them mostly for sentimental reasons.

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I see "bushings" for sale on the upgrade sites. I am familiar with the breech plug and the "vent liner", but what is the "bushing", where does it go and what is it for??

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The bushing plug looks like this. The bushing and ring take the place of the vent liner. You leave the bushing in until it wears out. No muss no fuss for hundreds of shots. Just keep the channel directly under the primer cleaned out with a 5/32" drill bit.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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The bushing they refer to is in effect the vent liner. Standard vent liners are steel screws with a small (.03") hole drilled through them. They erode over time depending on the powder type and charge being used. The bushings are made of tungsten carbide and are held in place by a set screw (lock ring) with a larger hole through it. The bushing material resists erosion much better and lasts longer than the steel vent liners.

BTW, the wrench is in the mail


*Whoops, Overkill beat me to it.

Last edited by tmitch; 03/24/16.

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Can i use my original breech plug with the bushing/set screw?? No "modifications" needed??

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Savage Arms will sell you the breech plug tool, I just bought one last year.


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Originally Posted by RatherBHuntin
Can i use my original breech plug with the bushing/set screw?? No "modifications" needed??


No.

*Not that I know of, but I don't know everything.

Last edited by tmitch; 03/24/16.

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The bushing is larger than a vent liner. They are .250" and either .300" or .250" long depending who is selling them. You could have your plug modified for a bushing but by the time you are done you would have spent as much or close. Just the bushing is $30 or more.

A new vent liner hex plug is cheap. Around $30 for a factory Savage plug. About $40 for a SS plug from Hankins and around $60 for a SS from Precision Rifle. The PR plugs seal the primer differently and would more than likely require a headspace adjustment.

If you go with the vent liner plug, i prefer the Lehigh vent liners. They last a little longer and the allen recess is a little deeper.

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I have two ML11's. They have both killed many, many deer. I can tell you anything you want to know. PM me with your number. I would be happy to answer any questions. Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder.

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Originally Posted by tmc0304
Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder.


PLUS ONE on that.


NRA Endowment Life Member (and proud of it)


Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something. - Plato

Deuteronomy 22:5



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I got to agree, if you want to shoot a sub in your Savage use blackhorn.

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Gotta' LAUGH at the dialogues here.

Get's a little tough without that round brass thing, the one that looks like a CARTRIDGE that was designed to hold SMOKELESS powders.

Heavy leathers, Kevlar shrapnel blankets, and bullet proof eye protection be yours.

I gotta' agree with Sharpsman,...and swear that henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum.

On closing, I have some unobtanium that's now safe to send through the mail, and will mill / turn up some bushings, bearings, widgets required for a mere $120.
Your Savages WILL be more accurate, once you've fitted them.

GTC



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Quote
Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder.


You do standup gigs on Comedy Central too?

Me and the spirits of Dan'l Boone and George Washington are scratchin' our noggins.

DD


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Drivel,...all of this,...

Hermaphrodite,unsafe,pathetically limited in any sense of REAL ML accuracy,... over pressured pieces of marketeers wet dreams, these so called "Muzzle loaders"....saturated with the jism of clowns that actually take them seriously, and probably think they'll be anything but a comedic footnote in firearms lore, and history.

Heluva "definition" that,...it just ROLLED right offa' my head.

GTC



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I gotta' agree with Sharpsman,...and swear that henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum.


Bye and have fun washing your smoke pole in a bucket.




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In a bucket? crazy

One wet patch ( plain water) two dry patches. Reload. Repeat.

At the end of the day, a little solvent, repeat again. Apply preservative, like Ballistol. Of course, I use real black powder, not some substitute... smirk



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Questin about bushing breach plug conversion. If i change to a bushing breach plug, do i have to adjust the headspace???

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Originally Posted by Overkill45
Quote
I gotta' agree with Sharpsman,...and swear that henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum.


Bye and have fun washing your smoke pole in a bucket.





Be advised Mouthy One, you are now CHALLENGED to a 1,000 Yard ML match,...traditional BP ML RIFLES against your star wars jokes, masquerading as WTF they're supposed to be, something out of the bar scene.

Let's do this,...somewhere, somewhen,...this Campfire is JUST the place for alla' us to run our mouths, throw down challenges, and actually get together.

Got no "Bye" in me,...all I got is bring your version of an ML, and we'll bring ours.

Oh,...and bring CASH $$$

'til than, you can go soak your HEAD in a bucket Mate.

GTC


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Got just the ticket.

[Linked Image]


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Originally Posted by RatherBHuntin
Questin about bushing breach plug conversion. If i change to a bushing breach plug, do i have to adjust the headspace???


No

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henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum.


Well its obvious that was not true.

You should show up at Friendship and shoot in the inline match. If you want to shoot just against smokeless builds, Feel free to enter the Kentucky challenge.

http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/the-kentucky-challenge/

The overall winner last year shot this.
[Linked Image]

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To you couple of poopy pants traditional gatekeepers,

You don't have have to read or reply to anything regarding smokeless guns. Charlatanism is unbecoming and provides nothing meaningful to the conversation. They may not appeal to you but I got into them because there are Army posts that have big deer and don't allow metallic guns. I started making high BC bullets for these because they were fascinating to me. They do what they were intended to do (safely) and the sabotless conversions are even more capable.

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Originally Posted by KineticPerformance
To you couple of poopy pants traditional gatekeepers,

You don't have have to read or reply to anything regarding smokeless guns. Charlatanism is unbecoming and provides nothing meaningful to the conversation. They may not appeal to you but I got into them because there are Army posts that have big deer and don't allow metallic guns. I started making high BC bullets for these because they were fascinating to me. They do what they were intended to do (safely) and the sabotless conversions are even more capable.


Don't recall I was talking to you Willis.

I don't give a flying phuoc what you shoot, where or when. OTOH, when someone says something totally ludricus such as...

Quote
Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder.


...use your imagination to visualize that other folks might call it what it is, BS. I shoot several ML guns that are in the range of 120-140 years old. Should be obvious that with a modicum of proper care they somehow avoid death by BP.

While we're chatting, what to you call a high BC bullet? Is your inline not metallic, thus legal on the Army posts? Shooting over the fence?

I wait with anticipation.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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The thing about public forums is you are talking to all of us. That's how this works because it is public and it's a forum. I'm weighing in just like you did.

When the comment was made about ruining an ML, I do not think it was intended as a broad description of sporting arms that load through the muzzle but probably refers to the model designation: Savage ML-II. I could be wrong but I would bet it was short hand. Where I would say that is an accurate statement about them getting ruined is the number I have seen (used) in gunshops or online that have pitting from lack of maintenance. Same can be said of the Remington 700ML. These are the two most popular platforms for conversion and a number of them need blasting to remove oxidation and prevent further pitting. Proper maintenance prevents it but maintenance is not a strong suit for lots of gun owners.

I call high BC in a .45 anything over .400 G1 since the standard for inlines has been pistol type bullets for decades. My 302gn bullet sits between .400 and .420 G1 depending on MV, my 344gn at .455-.475 G1, and my 415gn is in the mid to high .500s but I'm still drop testing it between 500 and 900m.

No, my guns are not "metallic". Metallic was in reference to ammunition (ie metallic reloading vice reloading a shotshell). My guns load through the muzzle and have breech plugs which makes them muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloading is legal so the guns are kosher according to manner of taking regulations.

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Originally Posted by tmc0304
Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder.


Originally Posted by KineticPerformance
When the comment was made about ruining an ML, I do not think it was intended as a broad description of sporting arms that load through the muzzle but probably refers to the model designation: Savage ML-II.


I think that's the issue here that has some folk seeing red, mistaking the reference of "an ML" as meaning muzzle-loader.
I'm not gonna get involved in the argument of who's right or wrong. Too bad narrow mindedness puts otherwise like minded people at odds, but it's been going on for decades and isn't likely to stop anytime soon. Archery vs firearms, vertical vs crossbow, cartridge vs muzzleloader and you can break each category down ad nauseam. Sad that


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Originally Posted by KineticPerformance
The thing about public forums is you are talking to all of us. That's how this works because it is public and it's a forum. I'm weighing in just like you did.

When the comment was made about ruining an ML, I do not think it was intended as a broad description of sporting arms that load through the muzzle but probably refers to the model designation: Savage ML-II. I could be wrong but I would bet it was short hand. Where I would say that is an accurate statement about them getting ruined is the number I have seen (used) in gunshops or online that have pitting from lack of maintenance. Same can be said of the Remington 700ML. These are the two most popular platforms for conversion and a number of them need blasting to remove oxidation and prevent further pitting. Proper maintenance prevents it but maintenance is not a strong suit for lots of gun owners.

I call high BC in a .45 anything over .400 G1 since the standard for inlines has been pistol type bullets for decades. My 302gn bullet sits between .400 and .420 G1 depending on MV, my 344gn at .455-.475 G1, and my 415gn is in the mid to high .500s but I'm still drop testing it between 500 and 900m.

No, my guns are not "metallic". Metallic was in reference to ammunition (ie metallic reloading vice reloading a shotshell). My guns load through the muzzle and have breech plugs which makes them muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloading is legal so the guns are kosher according to manner of taking regulations.


Specificity is the path to salvation when pecking at the keyboard.


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Originally Posted by Overkill45
Quote
henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum.


Well its obvious that was not true.

You should show up at Friendship and shoot in the inline match. If you want to shoot just against smokeless builds, Feel free to enter the Kentucky challenge.

http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/the-kentucky-challenge/

The overall winner last year shot this.
[Linked Image]


Damned fine shooting that, and of a grade that calls out a damn fine rifle,...and accurate rifles, as The Col.W. said are INTERESTING.

And I'm gonna' agree that a poorly chosen combination of words lit this off.

Quote
Well its obvious that was not true.


Is English your first language, or are you just picking it up ? I said I wasn't putting up anything regarding traditional guns here again,...
Not that I wouldn't be posting here.

GTC




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-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain





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Interesting advice from Precision Rifle muzzleloader bullets guys in Canada. They said, if buying a used savage, smokeless ML, be sure to check that a saboted bullet goes down the barrel with consistant resistance the whole way. If previous owner double loaded it by mistake, it could have a slight bulge that you could notice via a "no or little resistance" spot when seating the bullet. He said if that is the case, the barrel has been compromised and the next time somebody makes a mistake by over charging or double charging w 2 bullets, the gun could easily rupture and cause injury.
Thankfully, mine shows no such concerns. Cleaned it up, ordered new vent liners, and looking forward to shooting it soon.

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Yes that can happen. Aftermarket barrels and good factory takeoffs are pretty easy to find though.

What powders do you have on hand? There are quite a few that work well in the Savage.

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I only have 2 lbs of imr 4759. Looking for alternatives as this apprently is no longer made.. Also looking for good .451-.452 caliber bullets to try with my high pressure sabots... What suggestions do you guys have?

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4759 is a very good all around powder. If you can find more get it. I like VV N110 the best if shooting mostly 250gr bullets. N110 is a bit hard on sabots. The rise to peak pressure is pretty fast. Ive had my best luck with it by not going over 41gr. It produces excellent speed too.

Reloder7 is easy to find and works really well with a 300gr bullet. Its cheap, easy to ignite and very easy on sabots.

VV N120 is awesome with a 275gr to 300gr but its nearly impossible to find now. Ive heard rumors that its being imported again. Excellent speed and really clean.

One of these sabots should work for you. Most of the other sabots are probably a bit too loose.
MMP short black sabot
MMP HPH12 sabot
Harvester RED Crushrib for smokeless

Get a box of cheap 250gr or 300gr XTPs. Not the 240gr XTP mags. Use these to get it sighted in and for getting used to the MLII. They will kill deer just fine too. Once you get it shooting good buy some Barnes or other highend bullets.

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My question is can a guy build a smokeless muzzleloader off of a Thompson center black diamond XR if you have a breech plug built for this gun?

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I wouldn't even consider it. Those actions were built specifically for BP. The Savage and Rem conversions use an action build for smokeless powder.

If you want to shoot smokeless in a front stuffer, get the right tool for the job.


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Would the Ruger 77/50 work?

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Originally Posted by Jeremy783
Would the Ruger 77/50 work?


Badger Ridge offers a sealed 209 conversion for the Ruger 77/50. Getting someone to make you a smokeless barrel for it might be expensive. You can get into a CVA Scout or Hunter 45cal conversion for less. Under $600 for Scout and under $500 for Hunter including the conversion.

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I am going to sound a bit preachy here for a sec, so bear with me...

If this conversion you seem to be set on goes wrong, you are in a world of hurt. Just youtube muzzleloader explosions or failures before you get to excited about converting a muzzleloader to shoot smokeless. I know the Savage is expensive but twenty minutes of watching guys have guns explode might change your mind. Get the right tool for the job from the start and don't try to patch something together that could blow up right next to your face with your hands wrapped around it.

That is my $.02.


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Originally Posted by Jeremy783
My question is can a guy build a smokeless muzzleloader off of a Thompson center black diamond XR if you have a breech plug built for this gun?


It is not recommended to use smokeless in any plunger type action.

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Savage large shank is 1.12
Ruger77 shank is 1.15
Rem700ML shank is 1.25 unless you go Remage then its the same as a Savage.

In theory it would be possible to have a barrel made that would be just as strong as a Savage large shank and stronger than a Savage small shank. The Badger Ridge Ruger77 209 conversion is very similar to the Rem700ML conversion that tons of people have used for building SMLs. The Ruger77 bolt though has actual locking lugs. Neither the Savage MLII or Rem700ML had them.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Cost of the barrel is the big issue since its uncommon and would be a one of production. Im sure the barrel alone will be over $500 plus all the labor.

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Ok thanks for the info

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CVA Hunter 45/70...about $250
CVA Scout V2 45/70...about $350-380
Conversion with parts...about $200-325 depending on ignition type. 209 is cheaper and LRMP with modules is the most expensive.
Adjustable sizing die...about $160
Easily capable of sending a sabotless 275gr bullet down range at 2400fps or more....priceless.

That is faster than any Savage MLII book load using cheap easy to find Hodgdon 4198 powder.

Watch the video on Youtube.

Last edited by Overkill45; 10/06/17.
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I use Dead Center bullets and 5744 powder in mine

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