Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Training a Grizzly

Some years ago, while looking for elk from a high ridge at first light, my partner and I spotted two distant bulls entering a high patch of dark timber looking to bed for the day. After waiting for a bit, we decided to go after one of those bulls.

Reaching our departure point, we discovered a vehicle belonging to a young friend who also hunted this area. So my partner backed off and headed in another direction. Having already killed an elk, I stayed put and waited on my partner to return.

Soon thereafter my young friend and his buddy appeared, with eyes the size of saucers. They had been charged by a big dark silvertip grizzly, who had taken possession of an elk carcass higher up on the ridge. That carcass was the remains of an elk I had killed 12 days earlier.

My young friend had also seen those two bull elk and decided to help his buddy find them, but he did not know exactly where they had gone. Trying to find those bulls, they found a grizzly instead.

The big bear came rushing out of the heavy timber without making a sound, other than the popping of sticks. He was a big mature bear, with heavy muscles rippling each time his feet hit the ground! The bear came straight at them, and looked like he meant business!

My young friend had a can of bear spray, and his buddy right behind him had a rifle. Only one word was spoken, and that was "Bear!"

The bear suddenly changed direction slightly when the hunter with the rifle stepped out from behind his friend. The two guys pointed their collective bear spray and rifle at the bear as it ran by them at about ten yards. The bear then disappeared back into the timber.

Shortly after that encounter I met up with these two hunters.

I explained to them that I knew where the two bull elk were bedded, and that I did not expect the bulls to move until just before dark. I also said that I expected the grizzly to still be in the patch of timber where they last saw him.

I pointed out that the grizzly had already found my elk carcass, and if the two hunters killed one of the two elk, then the bear would get yet another free elk dinner just for hanging around the area.

If the hunters were successful, then they would be working on the elk after dark with a grizzly nearby and perhaps watching them! The grizzly might even decide to come down and take their elk from them!

Even worse, this appeared to be a fine way to train a grizzly to come to the shot!

And then I asked them the question that I now put to all of you.

"Do you think you would want to go after those bull elk?"

WyoM70

not if it was late in the day.

if I had help to pack the meat and time to get it done before dark, I'd go after it.

a man's gotta eat......

If I was with a group of at least three people.


Bear spray indeed!

BTDT , killing elk can get dicey in bear country.

If they got a bead on an aggressive bear with two elk capable guns, problem mostly over.

Except the cluster-fuc'k dealing with Fish and Game dept afterwards.... As sad as it is, that might end up being the worst part of killing a charging grizzly in the lower 48, assuming all people involved are safe at the end of it.

Tanner

It can even be a real PITA in Canada where there are hunting seasons. A guide I know in British Columbia had to kill a sow that was REALLY charging from a few yards away--not bluffing--and afterward said he almost wished he'd let her chew on him a little, after dealing with the government hassle. Almost....

Training is in session.

Dang, I was hoping that was a video.

It feels like poop hauling out an elk carcass in the dark in bear country without KNOWING that an angry grizzly is lurking about. I'm usually so beat that an aggressive bobcat could own me after a few miles--I'm not entering into that scenario with more risk than normal. Sounds like a great opportunity for a morning hunt or maybe just hunting a couple of ridge lines away. Cede ground in this case.

I'm not worried about that which I cannot control like grizzlies feeding on remains--I know I've contributed there with absolute certainty. If you hunt in grizzly country you occasionally feed them.

Morning hunt.

With 3 guys, I wouldn't be too concerned. I'm there to hunt elk, just like the grizzly. He can have the scraps after I'm done.

Apparently come hunting season the Griz LEAVE Yellowstone Park for the gut piles to be found outside the park. They are trained... It is said that some bears on Kodiak and Afognak have learned to come at the sound of the shot. I read one account where a brown came in to about 50 yards from the kill site, laid down and waited patiently while the deer was dressed and removed from the kill site before moving in. Nice bear!

I've hunted moose and caribou in brown bear country for over 40 years now. Only twice have I had a problem with a bear, once when I killed a moose about 100 yards from where someone had killed one the weekend before.

We had to pack the meat about half a mile to the float plane lake, over a ridge, to our camp. On returning to the lake with our last loads of meat, cached about 100 yards up the shore from our tent, we found one hind on the ground with the game bag torn and some bite marks. We cleared a shooting lane from tent to meat, then I hiked the 5 miles out to call our ride (pre cell phone days). 15 minutes after I left my partner added a 150 lb black bear to the meat pile.

The other time was when I killed a caribou high up on the wrong side of the ridge a mile and half from the truck after sunset (I posted this hunt here years ago). Had a 2 or 3 year old brown bear jump me in the creek bottom on my way back to the truck in the dusk. He was expecting meat when he or she came out of that creek and over the bank, 40 feet away, but I wasn't what it was expecting - a caribou or sheep perhaps. It was a little tense there for a bit... what with 2 rounds in the .280 and scope covers on.... . Next morning I had to yell it off my caribou kill site. It had eaten the liver, cleaned off the brisket, bitten into the heart, but was laying on the gut pile where it had rolled, some 50-75 yards down the steep slope, when I came up. I had 6 rounds in this time..... a full magazine and chambered round both.

Yeah, under the right circumstances, with at least one partner, and somewhat open visibility, I'd go after those elk just before dark - just move the meat a couple hundred yards and probably you would have no problem the next morning. At least not with coastal brown bears - interior griz tent to be a bit more aggressive I am told. Either will likely prefer the gut pile to the meat.

Hmm, how close was that bear to the location of the bedded elk, and which way was the wind blowing? I lose interest in killing an elk when I know there is a grizzly very nearby to where I am. Especially when I know it is only moments away from me. When it is that close my chosen route becomes the opposite direction from the bear’s route of travel. No shooting. Particularly if hunting alone. Not going to get to keep the elk anyway, so why kill it.

One thing for certain; I would not want to kill that elk close by where the agitated bear likely is without the ability to get the meat well away from the carcass and gut pile immediately. If I were even considering it, I would want an extra gun with me to watch my back while I worked on the carcass. I would not be at all keen on going back the next morning for remaining meat, particularly in a spot with limited visibility. Aside from not wanting the bear encounter, I would not want to lose my hard won meat.

Training? Might be, but these bears already know that elk carcasses show up in these areas this time of year. Do they make the connection between gunshot and food? They are smart critters, especially when it comes to food procurement. On the other hand, a griz can follow the scent of food molecules a very long ways upwind. Maybe they just need a breeze, not training.

Whatever, you do need to consider your choices. I would rather give the bear space if I know one is right there.

Nobody has asked THE most important question:

How big were the bulls?

Might?

Doesn't matter if you don't get to keep the elk!

Larger of the two bulls was a quite nice 6x6. Not a record book bull by any means, but most elk hunters would like to have one like that.

WyoM70

Man gotta eat...

Man must defend thyself also...

Lets see, shoulder rifle to grab bear spray.... You know how much ground a charging bear covers in that amount of time??

Boy, glad I do not carry bear spray. Stuff get ya kilt.

Bear spray is for puzzies that don't know how to use their rifles. If a bear charges me and means business, he's getting hammered by a 250gr. slug. The fish and game can kiss my azz...

For some perspective, I have been at the kill for a number of elk where circumstances required leaving the elk overnight on the ground, and then returning the next morning to retrieve whatever remained of the elk. Through good fortune, I have not yet found a grizzly between me and the elk. Nonetheless, the approach to the carcass is always intense, to say the least.

However, I saw what the outcome could be a few years ago while on the backend of a bighorn sheep hunt.

An encounter with a Forest Service guy made a big impression on me. He pulled out a couple of photos from his wallet to show me.

In the first photo, there is a happy, smiling man sitting up in a hospital bed and obviously feeling no pain.

The second photo was taken from the back side of the man. The back of his skull and his entire upper back looked like he had fallen into a meat grinder.

The man's disaster resulted from killing an elk at dusk and then returning in the morning for the carcass. In the meantime, a big grizzly had claimed the carcass.

When the unlucky hunter approached, the grizzly ambushed him and almost killed him. Without his hunting partner, the unlucky hunter likely would have died right there.

I knew the area where this happened, and I also knew it to be particularly full of grizzlies (but it only takes one).

Grizzlies taken as a whole are probably not as dangerous as many hunters imagine.

But getting on the wrong side of just one grizzly will certainly change, and may well ruin, the rest of your life.

Hunting with a partner might save your life.

Walk carefully, and carry a big gun!

WyoM70

I read a very interesting article in Montana Magazine a few years back. Basically, they analyzed the griz attacks in the Yellowstone and Glacier ecosystems.

For whatever reason, the Yellowstone bears are far more likely to attack and kill people. Not so much with the Glacier bears.

This is why I dont arrow an elk in the evening. This is what you will get if you are in bear country. We killed a bull in the morning and I mounted my camera near the carcass and that evening this guy showed up and claimed it. Dont want to tangle with this 600 pounder, spray, rifle or otherwise. I am a morning elk hunter only.

Those who tell you to hang the meat at least 10' high between trees have never actually tried it. I've had to leave elk on the ground overnight many times and so far, I've never had a bear or wolf problem.
Last fall we had to leave a skinned deer out overnight. The next morning the heart and liver were gone but the meat wasn't touched. I'm thinking it was most likely a fox.

Dont want to tangle with this 600 pounder, spray, rifle or otherwise.


Timbermaster pretty much nails it here.

There is a lot of downside, and very little upside, that can come out of any encounter like this.

Best to just not be there.

WyoM70

I have watched a pine marten carrying off pieces of elk from some hunter's kill. He was being mighty careful to not let anyone see him doing it. It was just luck that I happened to get the drop on him, and he never knew that he was being watched!

As for hanging the meat way high between two trees, that is indeed a difficult task. Especially when you kill an elk where there are no trees that big.

WyoM70

I shot this one 6 or 7 years ago. Note the dense forest in the background. Hang 'em high.
There aren't any griz in this area but there are blackies and wolves. How high can a wolf jump anyway?

This is so true!



Look at the photo in previous comment or take a look at the trees up high in this locale. Trying to hang meat in those is also not happening. Pack it down to that timber on the left you say? But I already have to pack that meat up and over the mountain from there toward the right.

Not only are the trees too short, but it is virtually impossible to get a rope up there and haul a sack of meat 10 feet up. Your options are limited. You can try to climb up to those tiny branches with a rope in your teeth or you can try throwing a rock with a rope tied to it over a branch. Neither works great with subalpine fir. And the branches will likely break under the weight anyway. Even with larger trees lower down, the rock over the branch takes time and patience, must be repeated for several packages of meat, and pulling the meat sack up is more difficult than it sounds. Particularly with small diameter rope such as paracord. The thin diameter cord matched to rough, scaly bark makes for a lot of friction. I can hang all my weight on something even as light as an elk head with antlers and have difficulty drawing it up into the air. Often you wait to see if the branch will hold. Unless you have a substantial branch, you can’t do two 35 pound sacks of meat per branch. Best way to haul meat up in trees is use horses. . . but if you have horses, surely you are packing the meat on them.

Try this: fill a five gallon water jug, tie a rope to it, throw one end of a rope over a limb 10-12 feet up, pull the jug up to the branch with no help.

How many feet of what diameter rope do you want to carry day in and day out in your pack? I carry four 20 foot lengths of paracord, but don’t want more. Can I get meat hung safe from bears? Probably not. Maybe from wolves or coyotes. The recommendation for keeping things from bears is to hang the item 10 feet up and at least 4 feet away from the trunk. Drawings show tying a rope 15 feet up each of two trees that are at least 10 feet apart. Your meat is supposed to hang at least 10 feet up – you have to account for stretch and sag in that cross-rope, as well as how low the bottom of your sack is from your knot around the top. Or maybe you can get a lodgepole tied in that high up - without falling out of the trees - and hang the meat off the cross-timber. Really? Are you doing that in the dark? Before you head off the mountain?

So you end up with meat on the ground. Getting it away from the gut pile and carcass is a good start. Scent marking around the meat cache may actually work. Pine martins don't respect that, but coyotes seem to and wolves may - at least for a short period. Bears, I doubt it. I'll bet Rock Chuck's thief was a martin.

How fast any critter - besides birds - finds a carcass depends most on where they are relative to meat and blood laden scent streams in the breezes. Birds find things fast. Birds draw other interested parties.

To get meat 10' up, that means the LOWEST part of the meat. The top is going to have to be closer to 15' up.
I you stretch a tight rope between trees, it'll have to be a strong one, 1/2" at least and maybe more. The tighter you have the rope stretched, the higher the lateral stress on it. A rope that sags only 20 or 30 degrees will have many times the meat weight on it because of angle stress.

Cant speak for the rest of you, but I have come to a personal conclusion that most people (myself included) are a hell of a lot braver about things like bear encounters etc., when they are home safe and sound.

Interesting pics.

Completely agree.

I had the opportunity to watch this Wyoming grizzly for a bit about a week ago. This is a fair sized grizzly, but certainly not the largest one I have seen.

I once watched a truly large grizzly appear from the forest near a carcass being attended by some lesser bears. When the big boy made his entrance, the other bears lost no time in vacating the scene. He was clearly king of the mountain, and there could be no dispute about that.

It is worth remembering that grizzlies come in all sizes. The size of the grizzly does not matter nearly as much as the attitude that the bear brings.

Prior to elk hunting in grizzly country, think about this bear. Come this fall, a grizzly very much like this one might be roaming the woods with you while you are stalking your elk.

It is my opinion that most grizzlies will let you pass by, and you will likely never know that they were there. Maybe tracks in the snow will give them away later.

But not all grizzlies are so inclined.

Stay vigilant, and don't be in a hurry when going through the woods. And remember to watch for the birds ahead as you move quietly through the forest.

Seeing a grizzly while on a wilderness elk hunt can add a lot to the experience. But do your part to make sure the grizzly encounter is nothing more than a good story to be retold later in elk camp.

No blood shed by either hunter or grizzly is the way to go!

WyoM70

http://www.alaskapublic.org/2016/05/17/anchorage-man-mauled-by-a-bear-near-yakutat/

Stay alert out there when elk hunting!

There were reportedly about 4 serious run-ins with grizzly bears at the beginning of last year's elk season in Wyoming.

Try not to be this unlucky guy!

WyoM70

And while we are at it, take a look at this photo which I posted some time ago comparing the humerus of a large, mature Wyoming bull elk on the left with the same bone from a SE Alaska brown bear.

The elk humerus is longer and more slender, as fits with a creature with longer legs. Still a large bone, with a substantial ball at the head of the humerus. Not all bullets can make it through the head of the humerus of an elk and still do fatal damage.

The brown bear humerus is similar in shape, but definitely different. Shorter, an even more massive ball on the head of the humerus (where it meets up with the shoulder blade or scapula), and a large ridge on the left side in this photo for the attachment of a lot of powerful muscle. This fits with the anatomical structure of an animal capable of enormous strength when using its front legs.

Consider carefully your choice of elk cartridge and especially bullet when hunting in mountains filled with grizzlies. While grizzlies in the Lower 48 are not as massive as their Alaskan brown bear cousins, this photo is still useful to ponder.

Whether hunting elk, or faced with a very dynamic dangerous situation with a grizzly, your bullet *might* need to make it through that heavy ball at the head of the humerus. It would be nice to avoid that ball, but you don't always get the shot that you want.

This photo is the visual argument for the choice of a well constructed bullet. Lesser bullets will work fine through the ribs of course.

Choose your bullet carefully.

WyoM70

If I'm the fastest one in the group........no problem.

I could be wrong but think that the Grizzly/Brown bear is more dangerous when has found a carcass or is on a kill. They bury them and guard them with a vengeance. I think that this is how most people are killed by bears. They inadvertently stumble on a hear guarding a kill. The other great risk is what the OP suggests, a habituated bear.I have withstood several bluff charges without firing. In my case, I was a flyfishing guide in Southwest AK and only carried a 44 mag. I have no idea if a 44 would have stopped a charging bear. The only time that I ever thought I might have to use a pistol was a on a mother moose. Bears were after her calf and my clients got jammed into a tight location with her. My worst bear encounter was with a young and likely starving bear. It was scraggly and missing patches of hair. I was wearing a backpack full of salmon and not carrying a pistol. The bear should not have been in the area. It was scavenging hunting camps and salmon carcasses left by other groups. I agree with MD that you better be damn sure that you want to deal with the investigation following shooting a threatening bear. The only bear kill of a human, , that i know of in the almost 100 years of Katmai National Park. was that of Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend. Most people in the know think that he was feeding the bears. He basically did everything possible to get attacked by a bear. Katmai park probably has the highest concentration of brown bear in the world. I would have shot the aforementioned elk but understand the concern.

I agree with all of the above. I am often humored by "arm chair quarterbacks" that tell you what they would have done in a grizzly encounter. If the bears were a major danger to hunters and hikers they would have all been shot by now. For some reason there exists a real but uneasy truce between man and bear. Bears make people nervous and people make bears nervous. Almost every situation ends well.

http://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2016...ul-to-be-alive-after-brown-bear-mauling/


Lucky young man I think, and I wish him the best for his recovery.

I can not imagine the horrible feeling of being under a brown bear, and I hope to never get anywhere near that point either!

This fall I will continue to hunt elk in the midst of the grizzlies. As I have for years.

But staying vigilant, always armed, and hunting with a partner can help stack the odds at least a little bit in my favor.

The very best strategy is to be smart about what you do, and where you go.

Sometimes you just need to turn around and go somewhere else for the day!

WyoM70

It's never not funny when the guy from TN talks about armchair bear experts!

Is it any less funny when the guy from TN spent multiple seasons as a fly-out guide in the Bristol Bay area of AK? It was not uncommon to see 10 or more different brown bears in AK on any given day fishing. These encounters commonly were within 25-50y. The "arm chair quarterback" stories I was referencing usually involve how someone should have shot the bear.

Being able to deal with a variety of bears at short range and still keep both bears and clients safe is the mark of a professional with a cool head. Bonefish has been there and done that.

There are always those who are in favor of shooting any and all bears under just about any circumstance. That is not usually possible nor is it advisable.

As mentioned earlier in this thread by John Barsness, dealing with the aftermath of even a justified bear shooting is a major headache at best. Far better to avoid that.

So the best thing to do is to be smart in your decision making when facing a bear, and keep a cool head. With a little bit of luck, everybody will be just fine.

No harm, no foul.

It doesn't get any better than that.

WyoM70

I don’t think Bonefish is incorrect in this observation. Nor do I think he lacks personal experience just because he presently resides in Tennessee. His statements of personal experience ring true, and appear to make him something other than the “armchair quarterback(s)” he is referring to in his second post.

Case in point is one of the most recent fatal grizzly attacks in Wyoming. This was the 2014 death of the forest researcher, Adam Stewart, killed by a grizzly near Brooks Lake (well known for its grizzlies). The map below derived from the incident investigation shows a scenario exactly like Bonefish’s description. The young man was reported to be a swift walker, which probably exacerbated the effect of the physical circumstances. He was carrying neither bear spray nor a firearm and was solo. He was reported to have been concerned about the potential of meeting bears at the time of the year – early September – when they are very active in their search for food. He may or may not have been mentally prepared for, or actually even expecting, a bear encounter. He had worked all over the world on different projects and had spent some time in Wyoming previously, and apparently had never had a close call. That all changed when he walked into a grizzly guarding at least one cached deer carcass. When it was all done, the bear had two cached deer, and a human cached as well.



As you can see from the map, the location of Stewart’s death was a setup for a disaster. Not only was the vegetation thick and the sight-distance short, but according to local information, there was a rise in the terrain ahead of him, presumably where the first curve in the trail was, that would have prevented him from seeing even a few yards ahead. The point at which the bear hit Stewart was determined from the location of his hat and sunglasses. Judging from the sketch map scale, at the contact point Stewart was probably about 37 feet (12 yards) from the bear’s daybed. If the bear had been in that daybed, it would have taken less than a second for him to reach the victim. Even if he had had bear spray or a firearm, likely he would have had no time to deploy it. That is where a second person might have had a chance to save his life, but no guarantee under such a circumstance. The article in the link below gives more detail on the fatality.

http://www.ishn.com/articles/100727-field-worker-worried-about-grizzlies

Another incident comes to mind from a number of years back. This was in Moccasin Basin, not at all far from Brooks Lake in Togwotee Pass, WY. In this incident a hunter was badly injured when he walked into a grizzly in thick cover where the bear was guarding a couple of gut piles. The bear slapped him around and “neutralized” him (if I recall correctly he was knocked unconscious for a bit), then departed, only to run into the man’s companion, who was quick enough to shoot. He killed the bear. The resulting inquest eventually determined self defense in the killing of the grizzly. The injured hunter recovered.

This is exactly the type of scenario that we elk hunters face come hunting season. As gut piles and carcasses start to appear, the grizzly bears start to claim them. One must remain vigilant and alert to the possibility that someone else may have left a carcass. It is imperative to pay attention to the bird activity, smells, drag marks, dug up vegetation, and any other abnormal cues. Even returning to your own kill, knowing its location, may be marginally less risky. Look again at those photos provided by Timbermaster. Those nighttime infrared photos may be spookier than color daytime photos would have been, but that is a substantial bear, and he owns that carcass, not you as the returning hunter.

Remember, this is what we are hunting in. A stationary bear on a carcass has all the advantages if you are walking into it.

Having read the article link from the post by Jaguar, I have to say that the comment by the Board of Review of there being no radio-collared grizzlies in the vicinity of the fatality site is likely true but also rather disingenuous, whether by intention or not.

The inference might be that only radio-collared bears are likely to be a problem. Radio-collared bears have already been in trouble somewhere, and might reasonably be assumed to be at higher risk of being repeat offenders. However they are not the only bears that might cause a problem!

The Cub Creek area is very well known for its presence of grizzly bears, whether any of them are wearing radio collars or not. Any person with reasonable experience in that area would conclude that the likelihood of there being grizzlies in the Cub Creek drainage would be very high.

All that aside, the situation as described was about the worst possible setup. Quite possibly no scenario of bear spray or weapons would have saved that young man.



One of my outfitter friends has sustained several full-on grizzly charges. He describes suddenly seeing a grizzly at about 50 yards, and having maybe 3 seconds elapse before the grizzly reached him in full charge. He survived because of the bear spray already in his hand.

Having looked at a grizzly at 50 yards myself, I can tell you that the bear looks too close. If anything is going to happen, it will be really fast.

For this young man, at those very close distances, there was simply no time to make any choices at all.

When things are that close, the bear makes all the decisions.

WyoM70

The salmon eating bear may not be fair to compare to the interior Grizzly. When there are no salmon, they eat squirrels, berries and clams. They are arguably less statistically dangerous than the interior Grizzly that makes a living as a top order predator. This is a guess on my part. I have never seen a bear outside of Alaska.

^^^^ Knowing this is disquieting, particularly so when the G&F chase plane is circling immediately above you when you cut the track so fresh in the new snow that the pad cracks and wrinkles are still in sharp relief. Five minutes old, maybe. The plane was centering on exactly where I was heading to look for a bull, within +/- a quarter mile of me. It happened very close to Cub Creek, even closer to Brooks Lake, and across the highway from Moccasin Basin. I made tracks in the opposite direction. Why reinforce training in an already problem bear?

for reference, this is how fast it happens:

the action starts about 1:50

Someone mentioned using a rifle capable of stopping a grizzly....how about us bowhunters? Yikes. I will be carrying bear spray in NW MT this fall while archery elk hunting. I have also been practicing tripping people ... I figure it will be really easy to outrun my hunting partner if he is laying on the ground!

In all seriousness, it is something that everyone needs to be always aware of.

You don't often hear of an attack on 2 people, that does make me feel a little better.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/3...-glacier-national-park.html?intcmp=hpbt3

Yet another reminder that grizzly bears are what they are. Death by grizzly bear is very rare, but the potential is always there when people are around big bears.

Personally I do not think that grizzlies are really trying to kill people most of the time. The bears just explosively react, and the puny humans can not stand up to the punishment that the bear gives out. And we are not fast enough to get out of the way either.

So a violent reaction that would mean little to another bear might well be fatal to a human being.

Startling a grizzly is never a good idea! And no one would if they could avoid it.

I have found myself within 50 yards of a grizzly while elk hunting, and I had no way to know that bear was there before that point. Fortunately for me, the wind was blowing from the bear to me, so the bear never knew I was there.

I simply let him go on his way, while I quietly pondered my options and stood ready for whatever was going to happen. Luckily nothing happened at all! Big sigh of relief on my part!

More than once I have wondered what would have happened had the wind suddenly reversed, and the grizzly realized that a human was unexpectedly right behind him. Really glad that scenario did not play out.

Be careful out there.

WyoM70