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I did some searches and couldn't find a single source of info. Sporadic tidbits here and there. So, what have others found works with the 6.5? Accuracy, bullet effectiveness on game at 6.5 CM velocities, etc.
I've noticed a tendency for accuracy loads to be heavier, 140 for example. I have a box of factory 140 ELDs to try, along with a box of 120 GMXs. Right now I'm leaning towards a 123 or 139 Scenar, 130 VLD for plinking to ~750 yds and possibly deer and antelope (at less range).
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Also, has anyone compared RL17 MV in cold temps to warm? I did in a 338-06 and it did exceptionally well. Curious if the same in the 6.5 CM.
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Rifle - 8.5" twist, 23" barrel
123 Scenar, 44.5grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.790, unfired Hornady Brass, 3002fps.
127 Barnes LRX, 43.8grns RL17, WLR PRIMER, COAL 2.803, unfired Hornady brass, 2988fps avg.
123 SST, 44.0grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.790, unfired Hornady brass, 2977fps avg
123 AMAX, 44.0grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.790, unfired Hornady brass, 3006fps avg.
125 Partition, 44.3grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.770, unfired Hornady brass, 3001 fps avg.
None of the above loads showed the slightest pressure signs. In fact, I tested significantly faster loads (as much as 100fps) with zero pressure signs in all of the above loads but prudence dictated I back off to saner levels...
I've been lucky with this rifle - It was a barreled action purchased from SAS using one of Burley Boy's barrels. It shoots pretty much everything accurately, but the 123Scenars are SOOOOOOOoooo easy.
RL17 has been very temp resistant for me in the Creedmoor, loads chrony the same velocity from mid 20's to 80's. I don't have any "real" cold in AO, some people claim less favorable performance when the temps get near/below zero.
HTH
David
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Thanks for the info Canazes, I am also looking for some good hunting loads as most info caters to the target boys..
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kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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140gr Partition
43.5gr H4350
Fed 210
2752fps
120TTSX
44.3gr RL17
Fed 210 match
2922fps
Your Every Liberal vote promotes Socialism and is an
attack on the Second Amendment. You will suffer the consequences.
GOA,Idaho2AIAlliance,AmericanFirearmsAssociation,IdahoTrappersAssociation,FoundationForWildlifeManagement ID and MT.
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Go to the 6.5 Creedmore forums. There's more than just reloading.
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I found that after starting this. Yes, lots of good info there.
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The 140 ELD-M with RL17 shoots well. Only 2630 out of a 22" barrel though. .3" ![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HnG7ZlXLYvI/VxqNQZ5tTnI/AAAAAAAAHIc/V6tkrHbn0NUtUrvHFOgnLFCgGpb5-4jkACHM/s2048-no/IMG_4228.JPG) Shoots the factory stuff pretty good too! ![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bpl_9mCuv1Y/VxqNOY8mfMI/AAAAAAAAHIU/8ndLnSodPXE/s1024-no/IMG_4226.JPG)
Last edited by prm; 04/22/16.
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Rifle - 8.5" twist, 23" barrel
123 Scenar, 44.5grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.790, unfired Hornady Brass, 3002fps.
127 Barnes LRX, 43.8grns RL17, WLR PRIMER, COAL 2.803, unfired Hornady brass, 2988fps avg.
123 SST, 44.0grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.790, unfired Hornady brass, 2977fps avg
123 AMAX, 44.0grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.790, unfired Hornady brass, 3006fps avg.
125 Partition, 44.3grns RL17, WLR primer, COAL 2.770, unfired Hornady brass, 3001 fps avg.
None of the above loads showed the slightest pressure signs. In fact, I tested significantly faster loads (as much as 100fps) with zero pressure signs in all of the above loads but prudence dictated I back off to saner levels...
I've been lucky with this rifle - It was a barreled action purchased from SAS using one of Burley Boy's barrels. It shoots pretty much everything accurately, but the 123Scenars are SOOOOOOOoooo easy.
RL17 has been very temp resistant for me in the Creedmoor, loads chrony the same velocity from mid 20's to 80's. I don't have any "real" cold in AO, some people claim less favorable performance when the temps get near/below zero.
Good looking loads. Anyone try Superformance?
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My buddy is using 41.9 of H4350 with 140 ELD M and getting 2700 out of a RPR. Half MOA at 1k.
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Also, has anyone compared RL17 MV in cold temps to warm? I did in a 338-06 and it did exceptionally well. Curious if the same in the 6.5 CM. I never chronied them in real cold weather, but In my experience with Reloder 17 in a .260 it has been consistent in group size and elevation adjustments in varying weather for me. It only changes about 100 degrees here from summer to winter though!!!!!!  And if it lost 100 feet a second it would still be 100 fps faster then 4350 in my gun......
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Tagged for load data thanks.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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I've been playing with one. For 142 SMK, I've gone to IMR4451, 41.1 grains goes 2700 fps, shoots .75 at 200. I just ordered some 123 Scenars, 140 Berger Hybrids, and have some 127 TTSX's just in case I want to whack a deer with it.
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Campfire Ranger
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43.5 / H4350
130 Accubond
FED LRM primer
COAL - 2.795
VEL - 2753
I can get a fair amount more velocity but 43.5 is the accuracy sweet spot in my rifle. (22" tube)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/X0n16mr.png) WWP53D
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I got my creedmoor two weeks ago and have yet to shoot it. Ashamed....I had it throats for ELD X Precesion Hunter. I figure I can load to that spec anyhow. I have no doubt about the rifle builder I expect sub 1/2 rifle.
Regards,
Nick- Georgia
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I got my creedmoor two weeks ago and have yet to shoot it. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z345/joan4321/Screen%20shot%202016-06-23%20at%209.07.22%20PM_zpse5eghdis.png)
WWP53D
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Been loading with RL 17, CCI 200 Primers, Hornady brass
22" RAR Predator 6.5 Creedmoor
43 GR RL 17 140 GR Horn A Max 2744 under 1"
44 GR RL 17 130 Nosler Accubond 2850 FPS 3 @ .56"
43.5 GR RL 17 127 GR Barnes LRX around .5 " 2840 FPS
Carefull with RL 17 it does not show traditonal pressure signs.
Very impressed with the cartridge and rifle wish it was left handed.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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I got my creedmoor two weeks ago and have yet to shoot it. I know. It's been 91-97 the past two weeks here in Georgia. Not enjoyable to shoot a whole lot. Any break at all in weather, I'm on it!
Regards,
Nick- Georgia
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I just picked up a Ruger Predator rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. Has anyone tried IMR 4064 with the 123 gr bullets? I ended up with about 2 lifetime supplies worth of 4064 and would like to find something to use it in. Was planning on starting with the 123gr Scenars.
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If you can't find "an answer to what works in the Creed" it's because you haven't tried anything for yourself. Never ask an online question that you are able to answer for yourself, by doing work for yourself. To the folks asking about Superformance and RL-17: Both are much more stable with temps, than H4350, HOWEVER: RL-17 is progressive, and Superformance is VERY VERY progressive in burning curve!!! Don't think you can"walk up the velocity" and gain speed withing pressure limits!! Here are what the curves look like from work were did a few years ago. P.S. if all you can see in this is the speed and pressure, you need you punch yourself in the damn face. ![[Linked Image]](http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2015-11-26-20-21-35_zps0ktikfds.png) ![[Linked Image]](http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-26-20-33-14_zpskz7cqnti.png) ![[Linked Image]](http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j84/Darkker13/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_2014-12-26-14-36-09_zpsv6lwcels.png)
I'm a firm believer in the theory of " If it bleeds, I can kill it".
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To the folks asking about Superformance and RL-17:
Both are much more stable with temps, than H4350, HOWEVER:
...
Much more??
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What is the maximum COL the Remington SA magazine admits, please?
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Campfire Ranger
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If you can't find "an answer to what works in the Creed" it's because you haven't tried anything for yourself. Never ask an online question that you are able to answer for yourself, by doing work for yourself.
In the event you missed the memo, this IS a discussion board.
WWP53D
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“I am in love with Montana. For other states I have admiration, respect, recognition, even some affection, but with Montana it is love, and it’s difficult to analyze love when you’re in it.” John Steinbeck
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Bringing this back up.....
I'm surprised to see such a difference in the Barnes loads you guys are posting here. Looks like 3-4 grains over what Barnes has posted as max. I'm glad to see that though as the velocity numbers that Barnes posts in their info is pretty pathetic compared to others such as Nosler.
LR
Brad
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Let’s Go Brandon
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Tagged for load data, thanks.
Nifty-250
"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
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My best load is the 123 Scenar with 39 gr of Varget. 2900 fps and .8 for five shots at 200 yards consistently.
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Just picked up a pound of RL16 and some H4350. Anybody made up a load for a 140gn bullet with RL16? Looking at the 260, it appears RL17 uses the same amount of powder as RL16. I'll use that as a guide for the 6.5
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My most accurate load so far has been 41.5 grains of H4350 with 140 Gameking at 2640 fps out of my 22" tube. A max charge of H4350 and 120 grain nosler BT is also very accurate and around 2840 fps in my barrel . I have some loads made up of RL17 with 140 Speer hot cor to try out this Saturday.
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I finally tried some RL16. It showed promise. Best group was 43gn shooting a 140 ELD-M. Measured .58 and clocked at 2682. 44gn was 2750 and still decent at .8". Single data points on the velocity, but it appears to be faster than RL17 or H4350. 41.5 RL17 is still the go-to load for accuracy. H4350 had good accuracy, but very slow at <2600.
Last edited by prm; 10/03/16.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Im about to start stuffing cases with RL17 and H4350.
In the Nosler Manual they loo an awful lot like the same thing.....no?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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yes they are similar. Though I've got a tick more velocity with RL17. Applies to 338-06 and 6.5 CM.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Up again for round three with the 6.5 Creedmoor - this time without H4350. Anything new? Anyone try Hunter, H100V or maybe Superformance (cheap), with 140s+? Thinking of trying the Hornady 140+ ELD-M, 143 ELD-X, and possibly Nosler 140 CC (cheap). 147 ELD-Match? .697? Damm, that's new! Found a little info here. 147 ELD match info
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--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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I've got the 147 bullets loaded up in 6.5x47 lapua brass right now. Hoping for 2700 foot plus but we'll see. Need a break from work but most of those have involved hunting the last 3 months.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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30338, hope to hear back how they do. I think I'll try them also.
And the 142 ABLR, even if the BC is ONLY .6 or .572, or whatever, that's friggin plenty. Dug through the storage boxes and found 3lbs of RL17 so starting there, and a box of 140 CCs and dies too! Just need brass, bases and pick up the rifle next Friday!
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Went and shot it today. 40.5 grains of IMR4451, CCI mag primer, lapua brass if only obviously and a kiss. 2700 fps, and very accurate. 22" barrel, bartlein 2b. Thinking this and the creed are very close for case capacity. The .697 bc of this 147 eld bullet is pretty impressive. Might have to shoot a doe with it in a few weeks.
This was in a 6.5x47 lapua. Don't use that load for the creed moor.
Last edited by 30338; 11/20/16.
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The new Hornady bullets are certainly getting a lot of good press, but don't forget about the 129LRAB. BC was tested by Litz at .550 or so and they're light enough to make good speeds.
Now with even more aplomb
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hornady's info on the 143 ELD-X Hornady's 143 ELD-X Info ------------------------------------------------------------ RE: The 6.5mm LRABs The new Hornady bullets are certainly getting a lot of good press, but don't forget about the 129LRAB. BC was tested by Litz at .550 or so and they're light enough to make good speeds. 129 Advertised G1 BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT 0.561 G7 BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT 0.285 142 Advertised G1 BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT 0.719 G7 BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT 0.320 Thank JPro. Got to thinking about that and found some good discussion here. 14 grains less and all the goods.  That alf guy can sure shoot. LRHunting forum link. 142 ABLR Info ![[Linked Image]](https://s6.postimg.org/atgn1go29/Nosler264cal142gr_LRAccubond.png) ![[Linked Image]](https://s6.postimg.org/p16bq40r5/LRAB.png)
Last edited by MtnBoomer; 11/21/16.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Anyone try Hunter, H100V or maybe Superformance (cheap), with 140s+? I've used a decent amount of Hunter in the Creedmoor. It works well with 140s, though I prefer Re-17 over it for that. I've had very good results with a mild charge of Hunter under the 120 & 123 Lapuas, but 39.5 grains of Accurate 4064 (another mild to mid load) has been positively astonishingly good with them. Darkker has loaded quite a bit of Superformance in the Creedmoor. I have a pound or two of it, but haven't tried to work up my own load for the Creedmoor with it.
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I played with 125 Partitions using RL17 and RL16. A max of 44.5 resulted in 2911/.8" for RL17 and 2848/1.3" for RL16. Not much of a test yet, single three shot groups at 44 and 44.5. but RL17 continues to shine for me.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Thanks. I ended up with a bunch of the Nosler 140 CCs and tried five powders in hand. So far so good with IMR4451 but need to confirm. RL17 and H4350 (which I have very little off) did just well but the 4451 edged out the 17, or so it seemed. Not fast, about 2650. Hoping they blem a bunch of 129 ABLR as it really seems ideal for the cartridge as was sugested earlier. I'll look that way for hunting loads which I don't need for many long months. I did get some 150 27's and 210 30's to try and like the 'looks' of them FWIW.. Anyone try Hunter, H100V or maybe Superformance (cheap), with 140s+? I've used a decent amount of Hunter in the Creedmoor. It works well with 140s, though I prefer Re-17 over it for that. I've had very good results with a mild charge of Hunter under the 120 & 123 Lapuas, but 39.5 grains of Accurate 4064 (another mild to mid load) has been positively astonishingly good with them. Darkker has loaded quite a bit of Superformance in the Creedmoor. I have a pound or two of it, but haven't tried to work up my own load for the Creedmoor with it.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Saw the 129 ABLR on sale for $39.99 at Graf's.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Tried the 125 Partition with H4350 and the 140 ELD-M with RL16. Only used two powder weights for each.
125 Partition shot 1.1" for both 44 and 44.5 with velocities of 2790 and 2804 respectively. RL17 was both faster and grouped a bit better.
The 140 ELD-M was shot with 43.5 and 44 RL16. Two shots with 43.5 were clocked at 2727 and 2721. The three shot group was .6". The RL17 groups a bit better, but is almost 100fps slower where it groups well. I will continue to play with RL16.
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Anybody loading the 136 scenars? LGS had some. I have some imr4350,h4350 and rl17 on hand.
Dave
�The man who complains about the way the ball bounces is likely to be the one who dropped it.� Lou Holtz
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Anyone try some IMR4451 and the 129 ABLR? I tried a few charges today and like the results. Thinking of trying a ladder test - though I've sworn it off before.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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I had a chance to shoot some 140 ELD Ms with RL16 and RL 17 in cooler temps (12 deg). Ammo set out all night.
43.5gn RL16 2742/2749. Was a 2725 avg at 70 deg.
41.5 RL17 was 2578/2595. Averages 2630 in 70 deg (accuracy load)
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Campfire Greenhorn
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100 gr. a-max ,41.8 gas. cfe223 ,runs around 3170 in my savage,fed.match primer,praise dogs don't like it at all,extremely accurate.Had a Lee collet die made up for the creedmore ,it was worth the money and creates really accurate ammo.
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140 gr Accubond and 41/42 gr H4350 = DRT
Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!
They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
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My high vel accuracy hunting load : 40g HV100 under 140gr Nosler Accubond. Shoots 1/2-3/4" @ 2700 fps out of stock Savage model 16.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
3-7-77
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Is the creedmoor close enough to 250 AI to start out at low end loads for it?
I am the NorthEast WoodsBeast!
"System version 1.3, divorced"
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Started experimenting with 140 Partitions and RL16. No data for that specific bullet, but a handful of other 140/142 bullets gave me an idea of where to start. I only ran one of each through chrono as I don't like to have the magnetospeed attached when shooting groups. But here's what resulted. 41.5 - 2665 42 - 2685 42.7 - 2728 43 - 2770 43.3 - 2778 Groups at 43 and 43.3 were .51" and .43" respectively. I think that's a fine hunting load! ![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gryAoa0Vra8/WEjZmxqCA1I/AAAAAAAAH5k/UPC8pLRvwq4VWVw5kUqIT3gSpOxzz4QjgCHM/s1024-no/RL16.png)
Last edited by prm; 01/12/17.
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Thanks for sharing!
How full were the cases? 16 looks bulkier than 17, which I think is my favorite Creedmoor powder, and is never compressed (for me?). QL makes it look like 16 will be compressed with the 120-class bullets, and _may_ be compressed with 140 class, depending.
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RL16 fills it up a little more, but not enough to be an issue. Here is 44gn of each looks like. ![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Aq8AYIHYUMk/WHpvwddxl_I/AAAAAAAAJRc/OVsdx_A8DM8/s1024-no/IMG_2043.JPG)
Last edited by prm; 01/14/17.
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24"
8" twist Brux
130g Nosler accubond, Barnes 127g Long range
41.0g of win 760
cci 250
Hornady brass, fired many times
shoots less than 3/8" groups
3130 fps
3180 is a safe max working load; groups opens just a smidge
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Thanks, prm. Looks like the fill is a little greater/higher with 16. Is that about at the bottom of the neck? (sorry, I think I must have walleyevision today) Also seems pretty similar to the H4350 fill. I don't use that powder, but I remember it leaving me a bit less room than 17.
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24"
8" twist Brux
130g Nosler accubond, Barnes 127g Long range
41.0g of win 760
cci 250
Hornady brass, fired many times
shoots less than 3/8" groups
3130 fps
3180 is a safe max working load; groups opens just a smidge Velocity seems very high to me, for that bullet/charge weight. Nosler data shows 2900 fps as a realistic expectation, fwiw.
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Thanks, prm. Looks like the fill is a little greater/higher with 16. Is that about at the bottom of the neck? (sorry, I think I must have walleyevision today) Also seems pretty similar to the H4350 fill. I don't use that powder, but I remember it leaving me a bit less room than 17. Yes, bottom of the neck for RL16. No tapping to get it to settle. The picture really isn't very helpful. The 140 Partition may just start to touch it, certainly not compressed.
Last edited by prm; 01/15/17.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Back up for reference. Any more 129LRAB loads?
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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I had a chance to shoot some 140 ELD Ms with RL16 and RL 17 in cooler temps (12 deg). Ammo set out all night.
43.5gn RL16 2742/2749. Was a 2725 avg at 70 deg.
41.5 RL17 was 2578/2595. Averages 2630 in 70 deg (accuracy load)
What rifle and what OAL?
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John Stark.
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Ruger American Predator. 22" barrel, 2.815 for all.
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John Stark.
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Back up for reference. Any more 129LRAB loads? The center and right side were shot with Nosler 129 gr. ABLR and RL17 in a 22" barrel Kimber Hunter. I plan on working with the center load but will have to wait to summer. Fishing most days now. Cartridge overall length should read 2.790 instead of 2.890 ![[Linked Image]](http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae298/rnfbubba/IMG_0588_zpsntr2qe3u.jpg)
Last edited by RNF; 03/21/17.
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CCI 200 primer, Hornady Case, 39 Gr of Varget, 123 GR Horn A Max, 4 shots at .57" today at 100 yards.
LH Ruger 24" Hawkeye FTW 6.5 Creedmoor.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Encouraging, new Hornady brass, Fed 210, 140 Nos CC, 42.5gr RL17, kissed. Back up for the believers. LOL ![[Linked Image]](https://s6.postimg.org/spp8gidg1/IMG_20170401_103152942.png)
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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OK looking for 147 GR loads got bullets on the way!
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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![[Linked Image]](http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x8/alaska_lanche/Gun%20Pics/BCE45C10-3112-41A9-A6FE-8D9E1A0D9C07_zpshw6dykjs.jpg) Was able to get 143 eldx going 2812 fps average and an ES of 13 and pretty good grouping for 5 shots out of my 24" Creedmoor using RL-16 and Lapua brass.
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^^Thats nice! RL-16 is pretty good in the CM to say the least.
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6.5 CM 24", 143 ELD, Horn Case, CCI 200, 43.5 GR RL 16
2822 FPS, 3 @ .78" pretty impressed with RL 16.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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use RL-19 out of all 3 of my 6.5CM
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use RL-19 out of all 3 of my 6.5CM
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Campfire Ranger
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darn nice shooting Alaska lanche.
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
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Was able to get 143 eldx going 2812 fps average and an ES of 13 and pretty good grouping for 5 shots out of my 24" Creedmoor using RL-16 and Lapua brass. I just noted the Lapua brass. This is the new brass with small rifle primers (vice something else reformed)? Looks promising based on that one data point.
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Campfire Ranger
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Did/does Lapua make CM brass that uses LR primers or is it SR primer only?
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
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Tried the 125 Partition with H4350 and the 140 ELD-M with RL16. Only used two powder weights for each.
125 Partition shot 1.1" for both 44 and 44.5 with velocities of 2790 and 2804 respectively. RL17 was both faster and grouped a bit better.
The 140 ELD-M was shot with 43.5 and 44 RL16. Two shots with 43.5 were clocked at 2727 and 2721. The three shot group was .6". The RL17 groups a bit better, but is almost 100fps slower where it groups well. I will continue to play with RL16.
Just wanted to comment. I've read the thread and everyone is stating speeds with RL16, for 140's in the 26's, or 2700's??? PRM, i loaded up 43.4gr of RL16, with a 140gr Nosler RDF running 2,894fps, solid node I found. 44gr of RL16 pushed the 140 @ 2964. The only load I was below 2,800fps was with below 42.0gr of RL16. I'm running the same string of powder charges with the 140 ELD's this week. Will report back those velocities.
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^^What length barrel? Mine was measured with a Magnetospeed, so I'm confident in the numbers. Maybe one of our scales is off! 
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Was able to get 143 eldx going 2812 fps average and an ES of 13 and pretty good grouping for 5 shots out of my 24" Creedmoor using RL-16 and Lapua brass. I just noted the Lapua brass. This is the new brass with small rifle primers (vice something else reformed)? Looks promising based on that one data point. Just saw this sorry for the late reply. Yes it's lapua brass with small rifle primers I am using CCI 450 primers. Both 44 grains of RL16 and 48 grains of RL26 continue to give me 1/2" 5 shot groups consistently now. However the RL26 is 40 fps faster and I had more of that powder on hand so loaded up 150 at 48 grains and am continued to be more impressed with this load. Hard to not like 2853 fps average with a .314 G7 BC
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I just finished developing a load with RL16 and 120 Barnes TTSX. 43.3 grains was the center of my node. Avg speed is 2897 fps. Shot four groups so far with this combo. Largest was .512" smallest was .201".
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Thanks, I will be getting some 120 TTSX bullets from Midway in the next couple of days. I have a tread in "ask the gunwriters" about this bullet. If already there forgive me but do you have personal experience with that bullet ?
You will not make peace with the Blue Coats, you are free to go
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24" K&P barrel. I was using a regular alpha chrony, but I tested the velocity of factory hornady eld loads, and velocity was in line with stated published velocity. That was my confirmation the chrony was accurate at least. I haven't had a chance to re-test that same string of charges yet.
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I have zero experience with the Barnes TTSX. This will be my first year trying them out.
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Went back and retested the Nosler RDF 140gr, with RL16. I used a Labradar this time, to check my velocities. It looks like the first test I was consistently .2gr higher powder charge throughout my string than what I was reading on the scale. So my 44gr charge was actually 44.2, that was my max I tested. That got me 2,964 first test. When I tested my "new scale" that I used against my old digital scale, that's how I found out. Charting my loads and velocities, this stood out plainly. The trends matched perfectly together, .2gr off. All that being said, my second test with a true 44gr, I saw 2,905 fps. Found really good nodes at 43gr 2819 AVG, ES 7, SD 3.09, and 43.6 AVG 2894, ES 9, SD 3.68. Zero pressure even at 44gr.
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I have been doing some forum reading, research, and my own curiosity, on pressure signs or lack there of. I knew getting 2,900fps out of a 140gr 6.5CM was pretty impressive/not heard of. I tested the Nosler RDF 140gr, working up .5gr increments from 41.5 to 44.0, to test for pressure. Saw none on my brass, bolt lift was normal. Velocity at 44.0 was 2,905. I then started .2gr increments from 42.0-44.2, velocity at 44.2 was 2,964. Same as before, no pressure signs on brass, same bolt lift as normal.
I switched to the ELD to test, started in at 42.0, went up .2 to 44.0. Didn't get past 42.8 before starting pressure signs and stopped at 43.0.
I decided to call Nosler and talk to one of their bullet guru's, since I don't have quickload and see what psi I potentially am at. It was a very good conversation. He did say I was well over max pressure, they don't have any data using RL16 but made a scientific guess. Even though I wasn't seeing normal pressure signs, the pressure was still there, potentially damaging other areas like the bolt lugs.
All that being said, I thought I was in the clear since I wasn't seeing the pressure signs but that doesn't seem to be the case always. That maybe a no brainer for a lot of people but I've read a lot of posts from other guys as well, pushing the limits.
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That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I've always read that you can have pressure without signs, but never really understood that. I understand how you can have very different velocities with the same peak pressure, but not how you can have an over pressure without signs.
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Variations in brass and primers.
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Same brass, same primer, same trim length, seating depth was 0.020" off lands for ELD, and 0.030" off lands for RDF. From what I'm told, I haven't measured, the bearing surface of the ELD is greater that can cause a higher pressure than a lower bearing surface bullet like the RDF. Regardless, the pressure is there, and in my case way over pressured with the RDF at 2,900+ fps. The ELD I noticeably saw the pressure signs and backed off.
But to your point, those two things can also cause a variation in pressure.
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That's interesting, thanks for sharing. I've always read that you can have pressure without signs, but never really understood that. I understand how you can have very different velocities with the same peak pressure, but not how you can have an over pressure without signs. PRM, I was curious about the same thing, no visible pressure sign on brass, primer, or hard bolt lift. I had read a few post about it, and that's why I decided to call Nosler. He stated, it can and does happen. A lot depends on how well the rifle is put together, blue printed action, custom action, or factory action. Mine happens to be from a top custom rifle maker, which was able to take the pressure, this time. However the over pressure is still there, causing stress on areas I can't see like the bolt lugs. He made a very good analogy about the bolt lugs because I asked if I had done irreparable damage to the rifle. He said no, it's like someone who does a burn out in a vehicle. The tires will hold up but only so long before they come apart, but eventually they will. All bolts have a finite life with a given amount of pressure/stress. Over pressure shortens the life.
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Same brass, same primer, same trim length, seating depth was 0.020" off lands for ELD, and 0.030" off lands for RDF. From what I'm told, I haven't measured, the bearing surface of the ELD is greater that can cause a higher pressure than a lower bearing surface bullet like the RDF. Regardless, the pressure is there, and in my case way over pressured with the RDF at 2,900+ fps. The ELD I noticeably saw the pressure signs and backed off.
But to your point, those two things can also cause a variation in pressure. My post was a reply to the question posed by prm. WRT your experience, I would suggest that the ELD has a longer bearing surface and potentially uses a stickier jacket material, increasing pressure. The reason that you can be well over SAAMI pressure standards and not see traditional pressure signs, is the hardness/toughness of your brass/primers. They can withstand pressures over the SAAMI limit without deforming.
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I started playing with 143 ELD-Xs using RL16 and -26.
RL16
42.5 2679
43 2710
43.5 2745
44 2762
Best accuracy based on a single three shot group was at 1” for all three groups. Not really great.
RL26
Worked up to 48 which showed 2737 on my Magnetospeed. Actually two shots, 2738 and 2736. A single three shot group was .58”. Worth trying again to verify.
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kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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I started playing with 143 ELD-Xs using RL16 and -26.
RL16
42.5 2679
43 2710
43.5 2745
44 2762
Best accuracy based on a single three shot group was at 1” for all three groups. Not really great.
RL26
Worked up to 48 which showed 2737 on my Magnetospeed. Actually two shots, 2738 and 2736. A single three shot group was .58”. Worth trying again to verify. Very nice!! 48 grains is what works in my Tikka with the 143s as well. But its getting 2850 on virgin lapua brass. For some reason now that same load is going 2910 fps in the once fired brass, but primer pockets are still tight and zero pressure signs so far good.
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HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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Ive got four good loads so far for 3 different bullets in a Field Craft. 40.0 of RL 15 with 129 Hornady and 130 Berger @ 2760fps, 47.0 RL 22 with a 147 Hornady @2700 or a little more. Those three loads were around 1.5" or a little less at 300 yards for 3 shot groups. I worked up to 47.6 RL 26 for 2760 fps and it shot moa @ 300 yards but that was before I got the seating depth squared away. This rifle likes the 147 Hornady around 50 thou off. Going to try the 26 again at the right seating depth. If it does what I think it will, 147's @2760 from a 21" barrel is going to be sweet.
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Ive got four good loads so far for 3 different bullets in a Field Craft. 40.0 of RL 15 with 129 Hornady and 130 Berger @ 2760fps, 47.0 RL 22 with a 147 Hornady @2700 or a little more. Those three loads were around 1.5" or a little less at 300 yards for 3 shot groups. I worked up to 47.6 RL 26 for 2760 fps and it shot moa @ 300 yards but that was before I got the seating depth squared away. This rifle likes the 147 Hornady around 50 thou off. Going to try the 26 again at the right seating depth. If it does what I think it will, 147's @2760 from a 21" barrel is going to be sweet. Jim, that is some great velcoity...my Fieldcraft with an 18" barrel is just over 2700 fps with the 147....seems to keep 3 shots inside 1 MOA but I am right in the lands right now...need to work on backing it up some too see if I can get even better accuracy. BTW my powder charge was .1 less than yours...they both seem to like that amount of powder roughly.
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Bought Alpha large primer brass any one with any 6.5 Creedmoor data with Alpha Brass?
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Hornady brass, cci 200, 44.4gr of rl 19 I’m not a big money hustla like you guys I’m slumming it shooting 140gr nosler ballistic tips. Seated at 2.780 again I’m poor shooting these out of a savage axis 2.. no problems with the hornady brass either.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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I still haven’t washed my hand after we shook hands.. No need to mail me anything I’m back in Alaska took me 4 yrs but I’m back.. oh I buy seconds I can’t afford the non blemished bullets gees..
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Campfire Tracker
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I still haven’t washed my hand after we shook hands.. No need to mail me anything I’m back in Alaska took me 4 yrs but I’m back.. oh I buy seconds I can’t afford the non blemished bullets gees.. HAHA........riiiiiiiight
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Campfire Ranger
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I have a bunch regular ol 140 a bombs to try out as well... I need to get some 140 partitions as well.. I’m no long range shooter and I’m setting this rifle up for my kid anyhow for caribou and moose..
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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I have a bunch regular ol 140 a bombs to try out as well... I need to get some 140 partitions as well.. I’m no long range shooter and I’m setting this rifle up for my kid anyhow for caribou and moose.. Sounds like a good setup to me!!! As a kiddo gun was my excuse for getting the 6.5 I got as well.  It certainly hammered the deer, caribou, and grizzly this year look forward to seeing what you kid ends up shooting with it.
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Hey Alaska, can you tell about your grizzly please? Shot a big Whitetail myself but only that...drt w/1 shot (142ablr over R17).
Thanks,Mac
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Campfire Tracker
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Hey Alaska, can you tell about your grizzly please? Shot a big Whitetail myself but only that...drt w/1 shot (142ablr over R17).
Thanks,Mac It wasn't mine, I just ran the scope and dope while my buddy used my rifle. It did take 2 shots to kill it, but so do other grizzlies I have killed with much larger cartridges at closer range...could be that unlike ungulates we shoot, we always keep shooting so long as the grizzlies are still moving.
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Thanks, elk the same is what I was taught...shoot it til it's down.
Last edited by Mac284338; 12/23/17.
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Campfire Ranger
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Found a promising load.
Savage axis 2
IMR 4350- 41.5grs
Fed 210
Hornady brass
140gr hornady spire point (regular ol Flat base interlock)
Seated at 2.680
5 shot group avg .644 group.
Little more work, up the charge to 41.7 and 41.9 also going to try out the Eld-x as well and 140 accubonds along with the 140 hornady interlocks.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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42.1gr IMR 4350
WLR primer
Hornady brass
143gr ELD-X
Seated at 2.181 at ogive
Last edited by 79S; 01/08/18.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Good Load in my 6.5 Creed Moor 22" Ruger American Predator LH winter conditions so group size might be in effect.
Primer CCI 200, Case Horn, Powder RL 17 43 GR, Bullet 140 Nosler Accu Bond, 4 @ .83" 1-11-18, 4 @ .70" ,3 @.5" ,4 @ 1.17" Fog bad conditions, all at 100 yards, 2784 FPS
Last edited by kk alaska; 01/11/18.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Here are a few loads that worked for me. I loaded for both a Howa and a Ruger American 6.5 Creedmoor, and I was surprised to find that both had the same preference for bullet, powder, and charge. Probably just luck. Both are 1-8" twist and 22".
130 ABs and 129 ABLR behind 42.5g of RL17 was probably the best overall hunting load. Around 0.5" for the Ruger and 3/4" for the Howa. Right around 2,800 FPS, and a little faster in the Ruger. I could load it hotter, but groups opened up I went up to 44.0g looking for another node, but didn't find it. I found the 130 AB and 129 ABLR to be interchangeable. Same POI and they always grouped the same at 100 yards, regardless of the gun or charge. 42.0g of H4350 had the same tight groups, but at around 2,720 FPS. Seating depth didn't matter much with these bullets.
A great youth load is a 100g NBT behind 36.5g of Varget at about 2,720 FPS. The Howa shot this under a half inch (6 in a row were touching) and the Ruger shot it about the same. Groups opened up if I tried to push it faster, but this load was the most accurate in both rifles.
The Ruger loved the 120 NBT behind 43.5g of RL17. 2,950 FPS into 0.7". The Howa preferred 43.0g of RL17 and shot the 120 NBT and the 120 Sierra Game King both right around 1.0". The NBT had a 2" higher POI, though.
Neither really loved the 140 bullets. I tried 140 ABs, 142 ABLR, and 143 ELD-X. The Howa did shoot the 142 ABLR just under an inch behind 41.5g of H4350 or RL17. Both powders at around 2,680 FPS.Groups opened when I went faster. I was surprised to find that neither shot the 143 ELD-X very well (1.5"-3"), despite everyone else seeming to have great luck with them.
An interesting observation was that H4350 and RL17 could almost be used interchangeably (within 0.5g) and get the same accuracy results. RL17 would run about 50 FPS faster with the 120-130g bullets, but they were about the same with the heavier bullets. At least in these two guns, anyway.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I never can use loads I see posted here. I just can't figure out how to get the bullet behind the powder.
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The order of the bullet and powder is user choice
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Ive got four good loads so far for 3 different bullets in a Field Craft. 40.0 of RL 15 with 129 Hornady and 130 Berger @ 2760fps, 47.0 RL 22 with a 147 Hornady @2700 or a little more. Those three loads were around 1.5" or a little less at 300 yards for 3 shot groups. I worked up to 47.6 RL 26 for 2760 fps and it shot moa @ 300 yards but that was before I got the seating depth squared away. This rifle likes the 147 Hornady around 50 thou off. Going to try the 26 again at the right seating depth. If it does what I think it will, 147's @2760 from a 21" barrel is going to be sweet. Jim, that is some great velcoity...my Fieldcraft with an 18" barrel is just over 2700 fps with the 147....seems to keep 3 shots inside 1 MOA but I am right in the lands right now...need to work on backing it up some too see if I can get even better accuracy. BTW my powder charge was .1 less than yours...they both seem to like that amount of powder roughly. I have run 47.5 of RL 26 in a 22" barrel with the 147 ELD-M and am getting 0.75" consistently at 2768. Have gotten as small as 0.43" and more than a few groups at 0.60" or less. I'm not super-crazy about running the ELD-M on game the size of elk so I am wanting to see what RL 26 can do with the 143 ELD-X and 142 ABLR. Anybody tried these two bullets with RL 26?
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2018
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RL26
Nosler brass
cci200LR
47.3 @2861
143 ELDx
22"
7mmRM the perfect North American cartridge!
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RL26
Hornady Brass
BR2
47.7 = 2719fps (magnetospeed)
22”
The 143s were not bad on accuracy in either a few loads I tried or factory, while the 140 M was incredible.
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RL26
Hornady Brass
BR2
47.7 = 2719fps (magnetospeed)
22”
The 143s were not bad on accuracy in either a few loads I tried or factory, while the 140 M was incredible. Thanks. I picked up some 143 ELD-X and a box of 142 ABLR yesterday and will start working up loads this week.
Last edited by seattlesetters; 03/05/18.
What could be a sadder way to end a life than to die having never hunted with great dogs, good friends and your family?
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Campfire Ranger
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I tried rl26 and goodnight it was a no go looks like I will stick with imr 4350
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Posts: 28,229
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Tag.
Anybody have a really good 120 TTSX load? Mostly concerned with seating depths.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Anyone have good loads for the 139 Scenars? Going to give those a run in my Fieldcraft. Have RL16, -26, -17 and H4350 to start with.
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Anyone have good loads for the 139 Scenars? Going to give those a run in my Fieldcraft. Have RL16, -26, -17 and H4350 to start with. prm, Just last weekend I loaded up some 139gr Scenars due to Dogshooter's comments regarding successful results by him and his buddies. He also mentioned how easy it is to get them to shoot. Dog was spot on! I loaded 30 rounds just to see if I was on the right track. Started at 41.5grs and worked up to 42.5gr. Tikka CTR 20" Barrel RL-17 42.5gr Max load (no signs of pressure) .015 off lands 3 shot average 2699fps - Magnetospeed Following is the 100yd 42.5 grain target (can't figure out how it got rotated - the pic is fine on my desktop). The 41.5 target looked similar. The center group was with the Magnetospeed attached. Going this weekend to shoot the 42.5 loads in bigger groups to see how they hold up. I also have H4350 and RL-16 that I will try at some point. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/medium/69289.jpg) Glen
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,695 |
30 grains of 4198, 100 grain Ballistic Tip...
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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I think that speer data is pretty close. I got 2889 fps with 140 Interlocks and 47 grains of Re 26.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Campfire Tracker
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Tag.
Anybody have a really good 120 TTSX load? Mostly concerned with seating depths. 43.0 H4350 2.710 For Predator, Fire Formed, neck turned. .0015 run out.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
Pronoun: Yes, SIR !
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Campfire Tracker
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For long range target applications you may get great results with the ALCO line of bullets. Very high BCs. Have not applied them to hunting...yet.
Don't ask me about my military service or heroic acts...most of it is untrue.
Pronoun: Yes, SIR !
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Tag.
Anybody have a really good 120 TTSX load? Mostly concerned with seating depths. 43.0 H4350 2.710 For Predator, Fire Formed, neck turned. .0015 run out. This is weird......very weird......that's exactly where I wound up in my Tikka T3x. Around .7 MOA.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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I just saw that Federal now has a decent selection of factory ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. I asked them about a component Edge TLR or Trophy Bonded Tip bullet and they basically waffled and said it was possible, but not this year. Either of those in a 140ish grain bullet would be a nice addition.
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Anyone have good loads for the 139 Scenars? Going to give those a run in my Fieldcraft. Have RL16, -26, -17 and H4350 to start with. prm, Just last weekend I loaded up some 139gr Scenars due to Dogshooter's comments regarding successful results by him and his buddies. He also mentioned how easy it is to get them to shoot. Dog was spot on! I loaded 30 rounds just to see if I was on the right track. Started at 41.5grs and worked up to 42.5gr. Tikka CTR 20" Barrel RL-17 42.5gr Max load (no signs of pressure) .015 off lands 3 shot average 2699fps - Magnetospeed Following is the 100yd 42.5 grain target (can't figure out how it got rotated - the pic is fine on my desktop). The 41.5 target looked similar. The center group was with the Magnetospeed attached. Going this weekend to shoot the 42.5 loads in bigger groups to see how they hold up. I also have H4350 and RL-16 that I will try at some point. Glen Did you ever get to shoot the 139s with RL16?
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Campfire Regular
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Anyone have good loads for the 139 Scenars? Going to give those a run in my Fieldcraft. Have RL16, -26, -17 and H4350 to start with. prm, Just last weekend I loaded up some 139gr Scenars due to Dogshooter's comments regarding successful results by him and his buddies. He also mentioned how easy it is to get them to shoot. Dog was spot on! I loaded 30 rounds just to see if I was on the right track. Started at 41.5grs and worked up to 42.5gr. I also have H4350 and RL-16 that I will try at some point. Glen Did you ever get to shoot the 139s with RL16? Not yet. Hope to get out this weekend and try the RL16. I'll post the results when I do. Glen
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I see Alliant only has the 6.5CM listed with R-16 data - so I'm off to the lgs. I'll start with a pounder and maybe get an 8#er later.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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I've had good results with IMR 4064 and PowerPro 2000-MR with 120 grain AMAX/ELD-Ms. Bug hole accuracy and 2930 fps from a 21" RAR. Although a little dirty H414 and a 130 gr ELD-M gives me 2850 from the same rifle.
Shooter's Edge
FFL in Western CO
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Finally had a chance to start loading for my Barrett Fieldcraft.
147 ELD-M, 47.8 RL26, BR2, 2760 FPS, .48” group.
139 Scenar, 43.7 RL16, BR2, 2742 FPS, .6”
140 Berger VLD Hunting, 43.7 RL16, BR2, 2766, .53”
127 Barnes LRX, 44.8 RL16, BR2, 2943 FPS, .56”
I wouldn’t hesitate to use any of these for hunting. For LR plinking that 147 would be the ticket. I still to play with seating depths and possibly refine the powder charges.
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Hi everyone im new to the Forum.
I own 3 6.5 creedmoors. A RPR a savage 10fcp sr and a kimber loghtweight hunter. My go to load for the RPR and the savage is Lapua brass CCI#450 41.2gr of H4350 with a 140gr RDF velocity is 2725fps SD's run from 4 to 7 and even had an ES of 1 and SD of 0 once but that was only a 3 shot group the load repeatably shoots sub 1/2 minute groups in both guns and shoots very well all the way out to 1150yds.
I am currently trying to develop an elk hunting load for the kimber it has a 22" barrell and Im trying 140gr accubonds with RL-16 powder the magazine on the kimber only allows me to load to 2.800" OAL I havent got a chance to shoot any yet but today when I was loading up a ladder test I found that at around 41.8gr of RL-16 I started hearing the powder crunch down when I was seating my bullets. Reading through this post I see a lot of you guys are using quite a bit more powder than that and I was wondering if you guys are just loading longer or are you just shooting compressed loads
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Hi everyone im new to the Forum.
I own 3 6.5 creedmoors. A RPR a savage 10fcp sr and a kimber loghtweight hunter. My go to load for the RPR and the savage is Lapua brass CCI#450 41.2gr of H4350 with a 140gr RDF velocity is 2725fps SD's run from 4 to 7 and even had an ES of 1 and SD of 0 once but that was only a 3 shot group the load repeatably shoots sub 1/2 minute groups in both guns and shoots very well all the way out to 1150yds.
I am currently trying to develop an elk hunting load for the kimber it has a 22" barrell and Im trying 140gr accubonds with RL-16 powder the magazine on the kimber only allows me to load to 2.800" OAL I havent got a chance to shoot any yet but today when I was loading up a ladder test I found that at around 41.8gr of RL-16 I started hearing the powder crunch down when I was seating my bullets. Reading through this post I see a lot of you guys are using quite a bit more powder than that and I was wondering if you guys are just loading longer or are you just shooting compressed loads I have shot compressed loads in about every cartridge that I own, over the years. Compressed loads are fine. You have got to play within the confines of your magazine and compressed loads are very common in short cartridges.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,735
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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So far my two are H4350 and R-16. Still getting velocities and patterns cataloged in order to decide. This with a 22" laminated Tikka and a 24" SS Tikka. Concentrating on 143 ELD-X's @ SAAMI 2.810". At this point, they all look darn good but I'll keep recording the data. Most likely will go to AK. next month with a CM for caribou.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
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Sounds fun! Happy hunting.
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Todays session involved two rifles, two bullets and R-16.
1. 44gr. R-16 with a 130gr. Acc. went 2742fps with a 22" Tikka.
2. Same as above with a 24" barreled Tikka went 2761fps.
3. 43gr. R-16 with a 143ELD-X and a 22" barrel went 2653fps
4. Same as above in a 24" barreled Tikka went 2697fps and a 5 shot group that measured 1/2". OAL was 2.800"
Six range sessions to date consistently show R-16 edges out H4350 in velocity - granted not by much. No downside to accuracy either. An extra grain of H4350 may catch-up but no need to hot rod.
Last edited by bigwhoop; 07/27/18.
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
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I’ve shot quite a few combinations in my new 6.5 lately. I’ve settled on 140 Berger Hunting VLDs with 43.7 RL16 and BR2s for hunting deer and elk and longer range plinking. Consistently shoots .4-.7 in my Fieldcraft. Last three were clocked by labradar at 2778, 2775, 2776. I’ve been trying different support combinations at the bench so group sizes have varied a bit more than normal.
130 Sierra Tipped Gamekings have been a disappointment. Best group I could get with RL16 was at 44.5gn for groups of .9-1.0. Only three shots each. Velocity was 2850s. Switched to RL17 and had slightly better accuracy on average. .85” at 42.6gn (2832, 2812, 2820). 1.0” at 43.2. Only one reading of 2850.
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The Bergers continue to impress. These average roughly 2755 FPS. Not sure about velocity changes day to day. These were recorded with a Labradar and depending on where it picks the bullet up it could vary. Seems plausible anyway. Will take it out to 500yds this weekend. ![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/78484.jpg)
Last edited by prm; 08/22/18.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The Bergers continue to impress. These average roughly 2755 FPS. Not sure about velocity changes day to day. These were recorded with a Labradar and depending on where it picks the bullet up it could vary. Seems plausible anyway. Will take it out to 500yds this weekend. That's a great spot to be with that bullet.... I run Bergers at about 2800 MV and they impress way down the impact velocity window...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Tikka T3X CTR, 24" Barrel...
Norma Brass, cci BR2, 43.5 H4350, 139 Scenar, 2.890" - 2840 average - shoots 5 shots under 1/2" and velocity drops verified to 800 yards
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Reloader 26 is like pixie dust in the 6.5 CM... 48 grs with 140 Amax was ~2900 in a 24” barrel. 1/2” 3 shot group.... no pressure signs... ![[Linked Image]](https://s20.postimg.cc/kd0823eu1/E8_C036_A3-_E6_F9-484_A-9032-713_D7_D653740.jpg)
But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Phil. 4:13
I DON'T NEED A WSM AS I HAVE A WEATHERBY!
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Campfire Ranger
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What primer/case on that 2,900fps load? I've got some 143's and a jug of R26 to start playing with.
Now with even more aplomb
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Campfire Outfitter
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Hornady brass with CCI200. Don’t try Federal brass as it’s short on capacity.
But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Phil. 4:13
I DON'T NEED A WSM AS I HAVE A WEATHERBY!
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Noted. Appreciate it......
Now with even more aplomb
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24” Bartlein 5R, 8” twist chambered by Jon Beanland. Hornady Brass 42.8gr H4350 140gr ELD Tula LRM primer BTO 2.117” .309” for five shots. Four of them went into .148”. Haven’t chronoed them yet. John ![[Linked Image]](https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9963/go55rQ.jpg)
Last edited by Hondo64d; 09/27/18.
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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OP
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First time loading the 6.5 CM, used some Big game with 120 Bt and achieved 1" groups. Next was H4350 and dang that was easy. I don't load for the highest velocity and accuracy, just trying to find a good hunting load.
Lapua brass
45 H4350
120 gr BT
CCI 450
.5 grp
HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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I didn't bother to work a load for the new Creed. Just used the same stuff I shoot in my others..... 42.5 H4350, CCI 200's and 140 amaxs. ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/MOnQaa.jpg)
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Campfire Tracker
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My Creedmoor likes 40.1gr Varget behind the 130gr Berger AR Hybrid in Hornady brass. About 2900fps from my 24" Bartlein. Warm load so work up carefully. These are 10 shot groups.John ![[Linked Image]](https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3466/UlzC1X.jpg)
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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I didn't bother to work a load for the new Creed. Just used the same stuff I shoot in my others..... 42.5 H4350, CCI 200's and 140 amaxs. no pressure signs? barrel length? velocity?
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147ELD, H4350/IMR4451, Tula primers and decent brass (I've been very happy with Alpha) have been gold in a handful of 6.5CMs now. Barretts, RAR-Ps, Tikkas. Great accuracy, low ES/SD, and very consistent LR performance. Super easy load development, I'm a big fan.
I've seen more well-shot game lost with TSXs than any other premium bullet.
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Moly’d 143 Hornady ELDX. 41.3 grains of RL 17. Federal 210M primer Hornady Brass. Savage Axis. 1:8 22” SWFA 6X MOA Quad One hole five shots at 100 yards.
RL17 meters like ball powder and with this result I will be shooting this combo for a long time.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
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Found a promising load.
Savage axis 2
IMR 4350- 41.5grs
Fed 210
Hornady brass
140gr hornady spire point (regular ol Flat base interlock)
Seated at 2.680
5 shot group avg .644 group.
Little more work, up the charge to 41.7 and 41.9 also going to try out the Eld-x as well and 140 accubonds along with the 140 hornady interlocks. I found that same load with 143 ELDX’s. Fed 210M primers though.
Keep your powder dry and stay frosty my friends.
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A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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24” Bartlein 5R, 8” twist chambered by Jon Beanland. Hornady Brass 42.8gr H4350 140gr ELD Tula LRM primer BTO 2.117” .309” for five shots. Four of them went into .148”. Haven’t chronoed them yet. John was this not a HOT load for you?? 42.4 in Alpha Brass was too hot in my 20" Proof. maybe the Hornady Brass is more forgiving?
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Alpha has a bunch less case capacity than Horn.
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Alpha has a bunch less case capacity than Horn. thought so, thank you !!!
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Campfire Tracker
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Still investigating but ran a pressure series with 7828ssc behind 147gr ELDs today. 10 rounds with .5gr between charges. Started at 42gr and ended at 46.5gr. 46.5gr gave 2886fps. Primer was a little flat but no heavy bolt lift and no ejector mark. All ten rounds went into a group a little over an inch. Not going to go any higher though..,
Winds permitting, group testing tomorrow...
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Still investigating but ran a pressure series with 7828ssc behind 147gr ELDs today. 10 rounds with .5gr between charges. Started at 42gr and ended at 46.5gr. 46.5gr gave 2886fps. Primer was a little flat but no heavy bolt lift and no ejector mark. All ten rounds went into a group a little over an inch. Not going to go any higher though..,
Winds permitting, group testing tomorrow...
John That is smokin' for a 147! I only run them at about 2745, over re 26.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Yeah, you don’t get something for nothing. My group testing will center around the charges that gave 2800 fps or less.
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Grouped 3 different charges, 44, 44.4, and 44.8gr. None of them showed me anything special, grouping about .8” for five shots. Extreme spreads weren’t great either, running about 37fps. I’m going to load some up and see how they do at long range just for grins.
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Please don't feed the trolls!
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Shooter71 spun on a Hawkhill #2 8 twist for me. Chopped it at 22". Goal was to build a factory ammo shooter for my daughter. So pulled a low round count Hart #2 in 260 Remington to do it. First 3 shots ever down the barrel was Berger Factory Ammo 135 Classics. Those went around .4" to start things off. They held that accuracy out to 500 yards within the first box of 20 factory rounds. It then shot the 140 vld and 147 ELD handloaded stuff quite well too. Most info should be on the targets. These were all among the first 30 rounds ever fired in it. Shooter71 did give this one a .150 throat so I can hit the lands at around 2.805 with the 147 eld and 140 vld. Good smith, good Lapua brass, good barrel, pretty easy to work with. ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/921/dXlxKF.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/1Ofhh2.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/27xMxj.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/921/jRzzQ7.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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30 grains of 4198, and a 100 grain Ballistic Tip....
it will impress your friends or really piss them off....
"Minus the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the Country" Marion Barry, Mayor of Wash DC
“Owning guns is not a right. If it were a right, it would be in the Constitution.” ~Alexandria Ocasio Cortez
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Alpha brass,.003" constriction,200's,'17 and a 147 Smooch.
Hint...…………………..
Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Reloader 26 is like pixie dust in the 6.5 CM... 48 grs with 140 Amax was ~2900 in a 24” barrel. 1/2” 3 shot group.... no pressure signs... Was raining today, so the ProChrono didn't get brought out, but I think the RL26 may indeed be the ticket. Hornady brass, CCI200, and the 143ELD-X over 47 and 48 grains both shot around a half inch at 100yds. No pressure signs at 70F. Bergara HMR. 2.855" OAL. Not bad for a used factory rifle and cheap brass.
Now with even more aplomb
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Campfire Outfitter
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Was only able to get about 45 grains of RL26 in my case due to a shorter throat.CCI small rifle mag primer, lapua brass. Shoots the 147 eld well with that powder too. ![[Linked Image]](https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/J5kArq.jpg) Shot more RL26 after this with 45.5 grains and 147 eld. Muzzle velocity is 2700 fps and holding around .3-.4" off bench.
Last edited by 30338; 07/17/19.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My best load is the 123 Scenar with 39 gr of Varget. 2900 fps and .8 for five shots at 200 yards consistently. Yep Varget has characteristically low S.D's, great consistency, popular with the target crowd and for good reason. DF ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/jh1ZsYH.jpg)
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Grouped 3 different charges, 44, 44.4, and 44.8gr. None of them showed me anything special, grouping about .8” for five shots. Extreme spreads weren’t great either, running about 37fps. I’m going to load some up and see how they do at long range just for grins.
John I know, different strokes, but any load that puts five shots from a hunting rifle into .8” at 100 yds. is special in my opinion.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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My best load is the 123 Scenar with 39 gr of Varget. 2900 fps and .8 for five shots at 200 yards consistently. Yep Varget has characteristically low S.D's, great consistency, popular with the target crowd and for good reason. DF Looks great, what brass, primer? I have a lot of Varget that needs used.
HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Hornady brass, Fed 210 primers, Hornady dies.
I think Varget is a good choice with light bullets. Varget is known for low SD’s, consistent performance, probably one of the reasons why the target crowd likes it.
I’d probably try RL-26 with 147’s.
BTW, I use Lapua brass when and where I can. IME, this Hornady brass is very good. The batch I’m using is pretty close to Lapua. Some may squawk at that. Just reporting, you decide.
DF
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Hornady brass, Fed 210 primers, Hornady dies.
I think Varget is a good choice with light bullets. Varget is known for low SD’s, consistent performance, probably one of the reasons why the target crowd likes it.
I’d probably try RL-26 with 147’s.
BTW, I use Lapua brass when and where I can. IME, this Hornady brass is very good. The batch I’m using is pretty close to Lapua. Some may squawk at that. Just reporting, you decide.
DF I'll try some Varget with the 120's, if I can get the groups like the H4350 I'll be happy. Currently using Lapua brass also but do have some Starlline to try sometime.
HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Doesn't Lapua CM brass use small rifle primers?
If so, I'd go with 450's...
I prefer LR primers in a case that size.
DF
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Grouped 3 different charges, 44, 44.4, and 44.8gr. None of them showed me anything special, grouping about .8” for five shots. Extreme spreads weren’t great either, running about 37fps. I’m going to load some up and see how they do at long range just for grins.
John I know, different strokes, but any load that puts five shots from a hunting rifle into .8” at 100 yds. is special in my opinion. This was out of my match gun with an M24 contour barrel. Not your typical hunting rig. With loads it likes, .3s and .4s are pretty common. Attached one below. This one was actually .291” Same load as the ten shot groups I posted on one of the previous pages. John ![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/2yWnxVmP/6-A061109-FE25-4381-A8-CE-5-AC9-E248-BF72.jpg)
Last edited by Hondo64d; 07/27/19. Reason: Added pic
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Doesn't Lapua CM brass use small rifle primers?
If so, I'd go with 450's...
I prefer LR primers in a case that size.
DF Yes that's what I use is 450's primers , with 120 Bt.
HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Grouped 3 different charges, 44, 44.4, and 44.8gr. None of them showed me anything special, grouping about .8” for five shots. Extreme spreads weren’t great either, running about 37fps. I’m going to load some up and see how they do at long range just for grins.
John I know, different strokes, but any load that puts five shots from a hunting rifle into .8” at 100 yds. is special in my opinion. I like good hunting rifles to group better than .8 5 shot groups as well. .8 avg for 10 shots is even mo betta: ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/oC5CIV9.jpg) .6 is even better: ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/DidxkXh.jpg) But a good lightweight hunting rifle. I'll take .8 10 shot groups all day long...: ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/TInieXz.jpg)
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Hondo,
Thanks for the explain. I now understand your desire for little groups. My hunting rig puts its favorites into less than an inch for three shots regularly, but I’ve really got to be on top of my game with five shots. The reason for my comment.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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My hunting rig is a Beanland built Bighorn Origin with a #3 Bartlein in a McMillan Adjustable Game Scout. On one of those rare occasions when the wind was relatively calm here, I did a little load development at 500 yards. Five 5-shot groups from five different loads averaged .555 MOA at 500 yards. From a barrel that light, that is simply outstanding. The next day, I took the best load from 500 and put it on paper at 100. It was pretty gusty that morning and my portable bench was wobbling pretty good but it still gave me this five shot group. Load specifics are on the target. Subtract 1” from the displayed OAL for the BTO. John ![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/BQ86PKc9/5-B8-AFE22-5-CBD-48-C6-9062-2-C353-C165-D45.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](https://i.postimg.cc/W4fnd5PJ/05511629-20-FD-4215-9-AE2-869-F216-B0-CF2.jpg)
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's a nice one. Inch at 500 out of a hunting rifle. It just don't get mo better than that...  DF
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I wish it was an inch at 500. The load that is on paper above did .498 MOA at 500 which is 3.66”. I can live with it though.😁
John
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I wish it was an inch at 500. The load that is on paper above did .498 MOA at 500 which is 3.66”. I can live with it though.😁
John Yeah, that would be something. I’ve shot a few three shot eye openers. My .240 HS Precision loves the 100 NPT over MRP. I once put three in 1,7” at 400. Doubt I could ever repeat it. But that was fun, one of those groups you don’t dare try another round. I’ve shot slightly over 2” at 400, 120 E-Tip at 3,450 fps 26 Nosler with 869 powder. Barrel gets too hot with 5 shot groups. Those kinda groups are definitely the exception. I always enjoy it when that happens. DF
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's pretty sweet John. Thanks for sharing..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Great info guys. Keep it coming.
Ron
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Orwell
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I tried 48 grs. RL- 26 with 140 AB, Lapua brass this weekend. Not sure of the speed but it groups under 1/2". Not sure why Alliant doesn't show any load data for RL-26 though.
Last edited by Remington280; 08/19/19.
HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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I tried 48 grs. RL- 26 with 140 AB, Lapua brass this weekend. Not sure of the speed but it groups under 1/2". Not sure why Alliant doesn't show any load data for RL-26 though. I have not figured that out, either. If it was not so good, I could understand it, but Reloder 26 is a fantastic powder for the Creed.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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Morning Sid! Good to see you’re still around! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,691 |
Was playing with Sierra 130gr Gamechangers and H4350 last night. The 41gr load Nosler has as it's most accurate was also mine. A 4 shot group had 3 in one hole and one just right opening the group to 1/2". Not real fast at 2740fps but dang accurate. Bumped it up to 42.0, got just under 2800 fps w/ 4 shots going into just under 1". Went to 42.5gr and groups opened up another 1/8" to 1 1/8" and velocity was 2825fps. Need to verify but that 41.0gr load was impressive. Details - Hornady Brass CCI 200 Primers H4350 - 41.0gr Sierra 130gr TGK 2.80 COL 85 degrees 3-5 wind 2740fps +/- 5 fps 4 shots in 1/2" @ 100 yards Should add this was from my Bergara Woodsman w/ 3-10 scope. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/Kt2NlyW.jpg)
Last edited by centershot; 08/20/19.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,518
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,518 |
That’s a good looking rig you’ve got there, centershot.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,691
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,691 |
That’s a good looking rig you’ve got there, centershot.
Thanks, Here is a better pic. Wood on this rifle is beautiful for an off the shelf rifle. Even better, it shoots as good as it looks! - So good that I got a little carried away on a new scope. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/CsaNN7G.jpg) Another load I have had great luck with is Hornady 129gr SST's with 38.5gr of RL-15, CCI 200's, Hornady Brass, 2.820 COL. 2760fps
Last edited by centershot; 08/21/19.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,877
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,877 |
That’s a good looking rig you’ve got there, centershot.
Thanks, Here is a better pic. Wood on this rifle is beautiful for an off the shelf rifle. Even better, it shoots as good as it looks! - So good that I got a little carried away on a new scope. Another load I have had great luck with is Hornady 129gr SST's with 38.5gr of RL-15, CCI 200's, Hornady Brass, 2.820 COL. 2760fps How does it feed? My brother and I both have B14's and the feed rails are terrible. The brass looks like you ran over them on a concrete driveway after a few cycles. I tried to polish mine but didn't help much.
HMM-161, HMM-364
Semper Fi Brothers
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,691
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,691 |
No issue feeding, does scrape the brass a bit ejecting. No worse than any of the 700's I have owned. I personally think they are one of the best production rifles currently out.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,588 |
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Orwell
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![[Linked Image]](http://s1185.photobucket.com/user/joan4321/media/Screen%20shot%202016-06-23%20at%209.07.22%20PM_zpse5eghdis.png.html)
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