Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Push Feed Win Model 70 in 300 H&H - Opinions?

Here's the story.

Went to a friend's shop tonight and another guy was there. We got to talking rifles and he said he bought a 300mag and had bought some ammo that wouldn't chamber in the rifle. Around here a 300Mag is always a 300Win Mag. He asked me to go across the street to his house and see if I could figure out the problem. I picked up the rifle, looked at the barrel, and immediately diagnosed his problem. It was stamped 300 H&H Magnum!

He really wants a 300Win Mag since ammo is more available so he's looking to unload this one. We may work up a trade for a shotgun I have. The rifle is a walnut/blued push feed model and is immaculate. I doubt it's had a box of shells through it. Winchesters are rare around this part of the country. Mostly Rems, Brownings, and Savages are all that come available on the used market so I'm not real sure about the value.

I'm not a big magnum fan, especially 300s, but I've always thought the H&H was a cool old cartridge. It's definitely something that very few folks around here own, and I like being different. I reload so ammo is not an issue.

I posted a price check thread in the classifieds about this since that forum seems to get the most traffic, but if anyone wants to chime in on value, feel free. Also, what's the recoil like on these? I'm fine with a 30-06, but the 300WinMag I had was just more recoil than I wanted, especially since I don't hunt anything larger than whitetails or hogs. My heaviest recoiling rifles at the moment are 7RemMag and 35 Whelen. Any reloading issues with the round? I know the push feed 70s are kinda the red haired stepchildren of the Winchester line, but are they quality rifles? Accurate? I own a few Pre-64s but I've never owned any of the modern Winchesters. Any and all opinions about the rifle and the cartridge are welcome.

TATELAW, I can't give any personal knowledge on the .300 H&H, but recoil should be comparable to a "warm" 30-06 load. Feeding should be great with a long tapered case. Win. Model 70, push-feed accuracy has been "bad-mouthed", but as an owner of 4; a .223 Rem., a .338 Win. Mag., a .375 H&H, and a .375 AI, all are capable of sub. 1" groups with proper handloads. It's a classic combo, only thing that would make it better(only from a nostalgia standpoint) would be if it were a pre-64. All above statements are MO and true to the best of my knowledge! memtb

for me it would come down to price, quality, reliability and just how much I wanted a .300H&H. Unless I thought push-feed might get me killed (extremely unlikely for my hunting), push vs. controlled fees would not be a significant concern.

The .300H&H won't do anything you can't do with your 7mm RM. My choice, after using a 7mm RM for 20+ years, was a .300 WM. Recoil is significantly greater with full power loads but my first handloads were .308 Win velocity/recoil, followed by .30-06 level reloads. (I didn't have either at the time.) Where a 7mm RM and .30-06 will generate about 22-24 ft-lbs recoil, the .300 is around 28-29 in a similar rifle (all Ruger M77 and MKII with identical scopes).

While my .300WM will never be a target rifle, I have to say I don't much notice the recoil when in the field, even when shooting off an improvised rest or bipod/tripod.

The .300 H&H is a grand old cartridge with a lot of history. That wouldn't play a part in my decision any more than it would if the cartridge was the newest, "hottest" thing on the market. The question would be "What will it do for me other rifles won't do as well or better?" That said, I've bought rifles because I thought they would be fun to shoot rather than because the provided any advantage in the field. (My three Marlins in .30-30, .375 Win and .45-70 come to mind.) Scratching an itch is OK.

In the end only you can decide whether the rifle is worth what you have to give up to get it. I'd probably pass simply because I'd rather have a new Winchester assembled in Portugal and chambered for a different cartridge than a push-feed, post-64 New Haven .300 H&H rifle - even if the newer rifle cost more.


YMMV

Sweet rifle, identical ballistics to the 300 WSM. What is the asking price?

Had one and used it quite a bit years ago. Perhaps the most accurate factory rifle Ive owned. Recoil is like a warm '06 as someone said, but it is more of a push than a slap like the .300 Win.
I recommend it highly.

You own a 35 Whelen. Unless you are running anemic loads through it recoil is nearly identical to 300 WM. I've never fired a 300 H&H, but I own a 300 WSM and it ain't rocket science. Both 300 H&H and 300 WSM shoot the same bullets as 300 WM about 50 fps slower. Recoil will be slightly less, about 1/2 way between 30-06 and 300 WM.

In my experience the PF model 70's are very nice guns that are often available at bargain prices. I don't see how you can go wrong.

If it's 98% or better I think it could bring upwards of $600-750, easy..

Is this an XTR model? Those bring a few hundred more on the used market with the (usually) nicer stocks. Checking gun broker XTR's usually seem to be sitting in the 700-1000 range depending on configuration and caliber. If the trade is in your favor, snag it! I bet that would last all of 5 minutes on the for sale forum here on the fire, if you didn't care to keep and shoot it.

Have the prices on those gone up to that much just recently? I bought an XTR in 7mm Rem Mag from Williams Gunsight last summer for $500 shipped.

This is a good description of the 300 H&H recoil. I hunted one for quite a few years and never had an issue with recoil. If a 30-06 recoil is not bothersome to you then you will be good with the H&H.
The post-64's may not have the glamour of the pre-64 but I have never had one let me down and overall the post-64's have been a little more accurate.

drover

+1
We've also got one in .25-06 I bought from a friend not long after he bought it new. I bought because it was the most accurate out of the box rifle he had. At the time he was buying and selling ALOT of rifles in all makes and calibers.

He didn't give me a price on it, he just said that since it's not a Win Mag he'd like to get rid of it and get what he wants. He's looking for a 12ga shotgun and I have an older Browning BPS that we discussed possibly working up some sort of trade on. He wants me to bring the shotgun back over after the weekend so he can see it and us talk trade. I know what I've got in the shotgun, I just need to know a good value on the rifle. It has an older Vari-x IIc 4-12 on it but I'm not sure if he's interested in the scope going with it or not.

I really wish I'd thought to get some pics of it, but I didn't. How can I tell if it's an XTR? I do remember is has the cross bolt through the stock.

I saw a comment about my Whelen and recoil. It's a T/C Encore that gets used strictly for primitive season her in MS. It's 7.5lbs ready to hunt and the recoil is stout, not an enjoyable rifle to shoot.

The .300 H&H is a fine classic cartridge. If you get tired of it, and don't care about any collector value, you can "improve" the chamber to .300 Weatherby. The push feed 70 works great and is reliable. The receiver ring is thicker than the new CRF action, because of the extractor cut on the latter's receiver ring.

Those early post '64's were mega ugly. Later on, they improved the looks, including the XTR as mentioned earlier. Those are MUCH nicer looking guns than the early ones.

I bought one of the ugly ones back in the '70's for $90 from a friend. Put it in a Royal stock, glassed and checkered it. Great gun, accurate (7RM); my son still has it.

I'd go $5-600 for an XTR is decent shape, try to stay below $500, maybe $450 or so for the ugly ones. An aftermarket stock, even a cheap one, really helps those a lot.

DF

I found some pics online to compare to his. It is definitely an XTR.

The scope bumps his a bit. You could check on line and Ebay for how they're selling.

I don't think a used BPS will wash a post '64 XTR in good shape. You may have to kick in a few bucks, even more with the scope.

DF

It'll have "XTR" stamped on the barrel near the chambering..

Depends on the part of the country IMO.. But also keep in mind there are TONS of 7mm RMs out there but dang few .300HH..

Rarity=higher prices..

I have one it cost 800 with Nikon Monarch scope. I bought it because I had plenty of ammo on hand. If you do not have supply of ammo or components buying .300 H&H makes very little sense because brass and ammo is more expensive and more difficult to obtain. The .300 WinMag is far, far better choice.

I bought a new M70 push feed .300 H&H when they came out about twenty-five or so years ago. I doubt many were made as these are seldom seen for sale. Mine had pretty decent wood but did not shoot well with a variety of handloads, so I sold it. Other rifles in the production run may have been have been far more accurate.

The cartridge is an excellent one and my pre-'64 M70 .300 H&H is among my most accurate rifles.

I bet gun nuts from back when would like to have their pre-64 .300 Wby's back in original .300 H&H configuration. Punching the M-70 H&H to Wby was popular back in the day.

Not too many rounds cycle slicker than an H&H, .300 or .375.

DF

Got that right.. I always scoffed at guys that said they had to pull the bolt back to make sure they chambered a round, because they couldn't feel it. Now I've caught myself doing the same thing on occasion with my 375. The H&H feeds like greasy sausages....They are also very accurate in my experience. Here's how I'd answer mr. Tatelaws questions:

1. Recoils a tiny bit more than a comparable weight 30-06.
2. If it's an XTR it should be worth approx. $750.00
3. Pushfeed Winchesters model 70's are known to be pretty accurate.
4. Ammo and brass is harder to find than other 300 magnums.
5. Brass doesn't last as long because of the case taper.
6. Ballistics are almost identical to the newer 300 WSM.
7. Capacity in some rifles(like the pre 64 model 70) is 4 in the mag box vs. other 300 magnums with 3.
8. Quality of that style of model 70 should be exemplary..

Speaking of magnums...I think it was around the time Winchester did the push feed .300 H&Hs, they also did some in .270 Weatherby and I think, .300 Weatherby.

Probably not many of these around, either.

As for.300 H&H brass having a short life span, it seems that should be so, just looking at the case shape. For me, that hasn't been the situation.

I guess I've made my contribution to the deterioration of this thread.

Does anyone know what the production years were for the XTR models? Or at least when they quit making them?

They were offered for couple years in mid 1980s. Based on body taper the case would need trimming after every firing. Not sure how that affects useful life because I do not reload. As I said the .300WinMag is far more practical caliber to own rifle in.

....

The .300 H&H pushfeeds were originally a limited run done for Wammes Corp (now Acusport) in 1988. There was a "Standard Grade" and a lesser quantity of "Safari Grades" with upgraded wood. A couple years later they briefly added the H&H to the standard catalog for a short stay. Here's my Safari Grade from the Wammes run, easily one of my favorite rifles.

What does this mean? Is it that the taper leads you to believe it'll need trimming every time? Have you actually observed this need to trim every time even though you don't reload?

Some years back there was a box full worth of plated, once-fired .375 H&H brass laying on the ground at my range. I picked it up and still have it even though I don't - and probably never will - have a rifle chambered for that round. My preference, in fact, would be a .375 Ruger if I ever choose to buy a .375 bolt rifle.

Practicality is also why the .300 H&H has such little appeal to me. Yes, as others have pointed out, it feeds slicker than snot. (Yawn.) Brass for the .300H&H is about 2-1/2 times more expensive than .300WM and there are fewer options. Midwayusa.com currently lists 5 types of .300WM brass as in stock with only 2 types for the .300H&H. The story on loaded ammo is about the same with loaded .300H&H ammo costing about 3 times as much as for the .300WM and much more limited in both options and supply. Midwayusa.com currently lists 47 types of .300WM ammo in stock, almost 8 times more than the 6 types in stock for the .300H&H.

For handloaders or aficionados none of this matters much, and that is OK. If I had a shotgun I didn’t want I might trade for it myself. From a purely practical standpoint though, I don’t see the value. The .300H&H won’t do anything useful that a .300WM can’t do as well or better and as a handloader with multiple .30 rifles from .300BLK to .300WM, there isn’t much of a niche left anywhere in the middle. Practicality only goes so far though and scratching an itch is a perfectly valid reason to buy a particular item, be it a rifle or something else. If the OP likes the rifle I hope he gets it and gets a lifetime of enjoyment out of it.

Lovely!

Brass on any belted magnum won't last long - UNLESS the shooter's a reloader and uses a neck-sizer after first firing.

On the H&H series the neck will stretch a bit quicker - but just pay attention to length and it'll be a piece of cake..

Wow!

You done good...

That's a keeper, for sure.

DF

Last year I tried to set up an identical 2nd elk rifle to my semicustom 700 chambered in 7STW. The 7STW came with a B&C stock with their Maxxguard (rubbery) finish that I really liked for our cold rainy elk seasons. I looked and looked and finally came upon another identical stock. Looking for barreled actions to put into it, I came upon a custom 700 chambered in 300h&h. I was excited as when I was growing up my Grandpa's only hunting rifle was a model 70 in 300h&h. This h&h has proven to be accurate, and its recoil shooting 168 E-tips noticeably less than any 300wm I've shot. Brass is easy to find, it might be a bit more than 300wm brass, but its a hunting rifle so I won't be exhausting brass every month. Lee even makes their collet die for it - though I'll full length size the brass before hunting with it, but its nice for making quick practice rounds. I have a ton of 168 nosler custom comp blems that I use for cheap practice.
Bottom line - its accurate, good power for the recoil given, its a little bit unique, and components are readily available. I like it.

IMO,buy the .300 H&H TATELAW.

These are basically the reasons the rifle interests me, the main one being I like older, less common cartridges. I prefer my 220Swift to my 22-250. I know the 300WM is more practical. I've had a couple and the recoil in a sporter weight rifle was more than I cared for. I won't own another unless it's in a heavy barrel, Sendero style rifle. I had a 300WSM. I don't know why, but WSMs just don't trip my trigger.

The H&H is pretty much the only 300 magnum I have any interest in owning, otherwise my 7RemMag will do anything I need from a magnum. I probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in this one if I had to buy it outright instead of trading a shotgun I don't use and some boot for it.

+1!

Imagine that. Campfire members encouraging another member to buy a rifle. Who woulda thunk?

It's the only time the 'fire can agree on something!

Hey,when it comes to spending someone elses money what's not to agree on?

IMHO those M70's are way underrated. And as far as .300H&H casings and reload tools go their available.

I've had a few Winchester Model 70 push feeds, and for the most parts they have been fine and accurate. Also had a pre 64 in 300 H&H, that one was very accurate. Like folks say more like a hot 30-06, more of a push than a smack for recoil. I would certainly consider a push feed in 300 H&H, they did not make many. Having said that the one rifle I never could get to shoot under 2" was a push feed Model 70 XTR in 243.

Great post. I've contemplated buying a 300 H&H many times as different rifles presented themselves. Most of the ones I've seen have been pre 64 model 70's. Talking to a few members here, they explained to me why the 300 H&H may not be the best rifle to buy. I've listed reasons above in an earlier post. Regardless, a few mangina's got bent out of shape: Redneck, the casings of the 300 H&H will not last as long as a comparable 300 win mag or its ballistic twin, the 300 WSM. Pretty plain and simple fu cking truth, that may be hard to swallow. It's not about it being a "belted mag", it's about case taper and mechanics. Hint... As long as I have a good 30-06 and 338 win mag in the stable, I don't need a 300 magnum of any kind. To the OP, buy it if you want it. They are fun and also have some pros to consider, as I also pointed out in my previous post. It's your money and not my hard earned money, so you need to do what's right for you. Often times, we look for support from other members here to help spend our money. I think this is one of those times...

The issue with the cases is that a 300H&H headspaces on the belt. Most newer magnums have a shoulder that controls/or can control headspace. As long as one ONLY neck sizes the case and uses the same case in the same rifle then at least for myself I never had issues with brass. Most cases were loaded more than 7 times before any issues. One will see where it stretches just before the belt, leave it stretched and only neck size and it is not an issue. When the bolt is just a bit tight on chambering you have sized the case correctly. Of course if one loads to the max every time case life is shorter.

I've got one DF. Wouldn't give it up for three times what I paid for it. Still feeds those WBY cases really slick.

Now that's a bad azzed rifle Scotty. You should post pics of it in the Winchester forum. "Let's see your model 70's"....When did you get that one and how does she shoot????

It's been kicking around for awhile BSA. Haven't done a whole lot with it yet to be honest. I'll post it up over there though.

I like the rifle, metals pretty good, functions nicely. Stocks refinished but pretty decently done. It's a elk rifle so it's not likely to stay in that stock anyhow, but I'll keep at it a little at a time. For the pure P64 guy it's a travesty, to me, it was a score. I like the 300 WBY and I love P64's....

Hey, throw that one in a McMillan and rock on. It will take care of elk almost as well as your favorite elk rifle... . I'm liking that one.. and if the diminished collectability of the rifle bothers you that much, next time you are down visiting your buddy in Lyle look me up. I'll take it off your hands... . Not much that rifle can't handle with 84 grains of IMR7828 and 180gr. Nosler partitions...

They are great rifles. I had one that dearly loved the 180 grain Winchester factory load and like a big dummy I traded it off.

Not one of my stellar gun moments.

You will find the 300 H&H easy to shoot. It kicks much less than the 300wby, and is extremely accurate.

Yup, you are entirely correct. It's a neat rifle. Never been much of a 30 caliber nut.

Time permitting I'll work with it a little and see if it's worth the work. I'd imagine a McM or Legend would make it pretty darned good though.

If full-length sizing is used, you're absolutely correct.. But proper neck-sizing and trim will allow nearly an equal shooting number between the two before toss.

I've done it now for, oh, about 42+ years...and it's got nuthin' to do re: mangina... Sorry to disappoint..

Redneck: My experience with the .300 H&H brass coincides with yours. I neck size minimally and bolt closes with very slight resistance. After a number of firings, a full-length size may be required. I've never counted the number of times a case can be loaded, but it's comparable with other rifle brass.

Just guessing, but I'd say full-length sizing after each firing would limit case life to four or five loadings, particularly if a stout load is used.

Exactly.

You're not guessing my friend - you're spot on. Full-length sizing for a belted magnum is honestly safe to 3.. I would not go over 4 before tossing and starting over.. But that's just me.

Thought I would update this thread.

The owner of the H&H traded it to someone else that I know and that I ran into last night at a mutual friend's place. The new owner evidently didn't realize the difference in a 300 H&H and a 300 Win Mag either. He tried to load a Win Mag cartridge and it wouldn't fit. He looked down the barrel and saw what he thought was the brass ring of a casing that had separated from the head and gotten stuck in the chamber. Instead of confirming this with a gunsmith, he decided he could get it out himself. He proceeded to run a tap up in the chamber intending to screw it into the brass casing and pull it out but it wouldn't come out. After he told me this story I offered to take the rifle to my gunsmith and see if he could get it out, if that was indeed the problem. I didn't tell him what I feared he had done.

After a quick look by my gunsmith today, he confirmed that there was no brass in the chamber and the chamber was ruined. Re-barreling is about the only option.

The rifle is indeed an XTR model, stamped on the barrel, and it is pristine other than the ruined chamber. Expensive lesson for him!

Ohhh, that's gonna leave an impression with the new owner. I'll bet he wishes he never tried to do that.

I wonder if he could punch it to .300 Rum or .30 Nosler and clean the chamber up?

I hope it costs him to be stupid.

Bubba is alive and well too bad he screwed up a nice rifle.

drover

I took the rifle back to him and he has found a 300 Win Mag XTR barrel for sale on Ebay. That was the cartridge he wanted in the first place, he's just going to have a lot more money in the rifle than he intended in order to get it.

I thought about the RUM or 30 Nosler myself but I don't know that he could get peak velocity with a 24in barrel. Probably would be able to get 300WinMag speed with much more expensive ammo. He's not a reloader so he will be using factory ammo. I figure he'll be happy with the rifle after the barrel swap.

I hope it hurts to be that stupid.