Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Bucking the brush

I hunt in the woods and any shot would be under one hundred yards and probably under 50 yds.
I prefer my 35 Whelen with 250 gr bullets.
I also have a 375 H&H Magnum that I load down to use 220 gr. Flat nose @ 2200 fps.
That is even better.
What do you guys use when you know that the shot will be close and tree branches and brush are thick.
My land is all that way.
whelennut

I shoot the same things in those situations I do when it's open; .243, .25-06, 7.62x39, .30-30, .303 Brit, .300 Savage, .30-06, etc.

The idea of "bucking brush" with a bullet is complete horsechit. You shoot through holes in the brush, not through the brush itself.

Nothing more I can add to that.

When it's thick I will carry anything from a .243 - 45/70, all depends on the mood I'm in.

Marlin 336 in .35Rem w/ 200g corelocts

I personally would cut some shooting lanes, brush busting is a myth.

The one I favor is my 99F in 300 Sav with 180 grain silvertips but then I use it on 230 yard shots as well.....

The only effective way to bust brush is not hit it. I mostly use one of my lever action.30-30's because they've proven just as effective at killing deer in the woods/thickets as my bolt action .30-06 or .308 and I like the way they handle/carry better.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Exactamundo.

Anything works, they are just deer, and I pick lanes too.

Thick sheit and 50 yard shots is why God invented the 6x scope.

I've been using one of these. The only downsides are it's a bitch to clean and I can only fit three extra rounds in my pack.

Claymore mines in bedding areas?

Always thought the 35 Whelen would be a good one for the blood trail if needed. I start the season with my 722 300 Savage.....

Nothing is going to "bust brush" having said that my close woods guns that have worked the best for me in Northern Minnesota and the pine woods of Nebraska have been a WWII 8mm Mauser and a CZ 550 9.3X62.

For close range thick stuff I have 3: Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum; Marlin Outfitter 444 Marlin; Marlin Guide Gun .45-70. I like the big bores for close range.

I also have a Marlin 336c in .30-30 that would work as well.

I'm all for picking a hole in cover and shooting through that. And, yes, 6X scopes help alot, even at 50 yds.
I would add that if the shot does hit something, I've had better results with premium, fast opening bullets like the Nosler Partition than with fast opening cup and core bullets. C&C bullets tend to separate or deflect more readily in my experience.
It's also nice to have a fast follow up shot if the bullet tumbles.
Probably the toughest shooting I've ever had to do has been on running game in thick cover. E

I've got no qualms whatsoever about putting down the rifle and hauling out one of my slug guns. My 12 gauge is an old 870 that routinely shoots sub 1" groups at 50 yards with Foster slugs. Those flying ash trays really knock a deer hard if you put it in the boiler room. That being said, I agree with the others. My usual brush gun is also my long range gun, my mid range gun, my swamp gun, and my beanfield rifle. Nothing fancy, just an ugly old Mauser chambered for '06 that really likes 165 gr. Sierra Game King BTSP Federal Premium loads.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

"I shoot a 45-70 and kill deer through 4" saplings" said the dumbest s o b at the morning coffee shop. same guy that "took several good sound shots but didn't see anything"

The best brush guns have good optics to find the openings in brush, especially in low light, and laser flat trajectory to thread through those openings. The bullets on my brush guns will be no more than 1" above or below line of sight from 50 yards to about 135-140 yards with a 100 yard zero and will keep 3 shots well under 1" at 100 yards.

ANY bullet that hits brush will deflect, it is just a matter of how much. I've seen some data to support the idea than RN bullets deflect slightly less because the weight tends to be in the front half of the bullet where pointed bullets have more weight in the rear. Nothing to support the idea that larger calibers or slower velocity matters. A RN bullet fired from a 7mm, 270, or 30-06 at 3000 fps is just as effective as a 30-30 RN fired at 2000 fps and only slightly better than pointed bullets at the same speeds.

I'm surprised an argument has not broken out in this thread.

Looks like the experienced 'Fire members on here realize that grenades, mortars and RPGs are about the only 'things' that 'buck' brush.

In the thick Eastern wood, I use a 270, 260, 243, 30-06, 308 and occasionally a 223 or 30-30.

More important than the cartridge is the rifle. Take a rifle into the brush with a 22"+ barrel and the barrel always seen's to get into the way. My Rem 660 with it's 20" barrel worked fine. I've got a 308 in a Rem 788 with an 18" barrel I plan on using this year over in the valley with 180gr cast bullet's. Should work fine.

This. ^


I shoot 460 grain solid conicals at low to med velocity. They dont "buck brush".

Willow branches thinner than a little kids pinky will deflect the path of the bullet.

If a nearly 500 grain solid isnt a brush buster, what is?

9.3 x 57 M46 Husky. Not because it magically bucks brush, but because if it doesn't drop them right there it makes big holes that rivers of blood come out of for tracking the short distance a few have gone. And the little Husky is short and light. I like the 9.3 x 57; Sort of like either the Germans or Swedes invented the 358 Win in 1900 or so.

If I have shooting lanes over 100 yards I prefer to use a 257 Roberts or 8x57 just 'cause the 9.3x57 has the trajectory of a whiffle ball.

Everyone has preferences, nice to read what people use without an argument over it.

Man, I hope I'm never near him in the woods-that sound shooting crap is scary.

I have been involved in tactical shooting for a while.

One course involves shooting at a card board mannequin . The mannequin has a ball cap held on to the head with 2 staples.

Shots fired are with 9 MM, .40 cal, & .45 cal . All hand guns.

.223 and 12 G. slug long guns.

EVERY SHOT that hits the tip of the brim is deflected. The cap is NEVER knocked off. Amazing !

You wouldn't believe it without seeing it. I didn't.

Also , a lot of head shots strike too low ….due to trying to shoot under the ball cap.

I also hunt and have shot more than a few deer. A bud on a Birch tree will deflect your shot.

A chain saw and an electric pole saw.

I bow hunt also, so shooting lanes are important. I go out in September before the season gets going and check my lanes and trim some trees.

When gun season comes in, I use a 12ga with Breneke Magnum Crush. Muzzle Loader I use 295 grain Power Belts with 3 50/50 Triple 7.

I don't cut shooting lanes…………

I would't sit in a frizzin' tree to shoot a frizzin' deer.

I walk and hunt.

Years ago I read a test that someone did where they set up a "brush box" with several 1" wooden dowels, to simulate shooting through brush. The 1" dowels allowed consistency and easy replacement. He then tried a bunch of different calibers - traditional "brush busters" and high velocity "open country" cartridges.

The fast moving high speed rounds actually didn't deflect much, but the bullets turned sideways. The "brush busters" had the bullet stay straight, but deflect. The end conclusion was, don't try shooting through brush

The one mule deer I managed to kill in California, was lying in some tall grass, looking at me when I fired at his neck. The 150gr, launched out of a .308, clipped some grass, turned sideways, but still hit his adams apple and anchored him.

Patrick over the years Ive seen a couple such tests written up. In both cases hotter faster bullets did better( contrary to beliefs) I remember in one test a 100 grain .243 did best. And in the other a 150 grain 30-06 won out.


I am in the don't shoot through brush crowd, shoot through the holes in it.


I can only remember intentionally shooting through brush twice. Once on a WT deer at fifty yards with my .22-250 and a 55 TBBC. Only had about six inches of flimsy juniper to go through....turned the bullet sideways and changed its course. Killed the deer right away, but not as neatly as I'd planned.
Second time was on a wounded waterbuck laying in the branches of a blow down. Very sparse cover so I thought nothing of slinging a 165 A-frame at him from 30 yards. Indeed it looked like nothing was intervening, but it was. I'll never know where that bullet went. Not having a contingency plan I just fired another through thru the apparently open space, and it apparently was open, cause it arrived without any fanfare.

A Marlin 45/70 guide gun with 300 grainers and a Marlin 35 Rem with 200 grainers are my first choices followed by my 35 Whelen with 225 grain Partitions.. Otherwise it's what ever's in my hand when I run into the thick stuff.. Pick a hole and make the shot..

I wonder if faster twist helps, should one encounter a twig by accident. Testing might be indicated.

I've done some of my own testing shooting through brush. From what I've seen the slower the twist and shorter the bullet the better. The least deflected projectiles for me were .490" round balls shot through a 1/66 twist and 12 gauge Foster slugs shot through a smooth bore slug barrel. Both were still deflected enough that shooting through brush is inadvisable unless the target is very close behind it.

I remember reading a test like that - maybe the same? I remember the 1" dowels. I also remember the same conclusion.
I never shoot at/thru brush unless absolutely necessary.

Jerry

When I was young people liked the 220 gr. Rn 30-06
for woods hunting. As the years go by the bullets are getting lighter. Of course it is getting harder and harder to get a moose tag too.

I've shot two deer and missed another where I inadvertently hit intervening obstacles.

On the first one I shot at a walking deer with a 350 Rem Mag and a 200 gr Hornady Spire Point at about 50-60 yards. When I walked up to the buck, I saw a 1-1 1/4" hole on the roght side that was facing me when I shot. My first thought was "what the he__?" I then realized the bullet had hit something and "pre-expanded". I went back and found that I had center punched a 1" grape vine that I hadn't seen. That bullet at around 2600 fps broke both shoulders. I cut it out with a folding saw that I had. I still have that piece of wood.

Fast forward a few years and at about 90 yards, with a 35 Whelen and 225 gr Ballistic Tip (since discontinued), I shot my heaviest whitetail (235 lbs). It was a little while after sunset and here again due to shadows, I hit an unseen branch. The buck was head-on and when I shot he dropped on the spot. I got to the deer, I again saw a big entrance hole I looked and found that I had hit a branch about 11/2" thick. That bullet took out 3 to 4 vertebrae after hitting that branch.

Between those two successes, I had another where I hit a 1/2" Devil's Walking stick with the 200 gr Hornady on the way to a walking buck about 30 yards away and didn't touch a hair. My buddy and I spent over an hour looking for any sign that I had hit the buck. No luck.

Point being I didn't intentionally shoot through brush but hit the first two deer more due to luck BUT there was enough bullet left intact to to break down those two bucks.

Having lived it, "brush bucking" refers to platforms rather than catridges....Barrel bands and/or well balanced rifles help........!



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Nav -

In the 80s I was woods hunting w/a 358 W --big slow bullet -
I had a good shot at a buck entering the last rib - I thot. At the shot the deer bolted like nothing happened. I'm confounded.

A bud & I looked hard and found hair, no blood to speak of and ground meat ?? More than enuff meat to know it didn't come from the hide over ribs or flank. Went back & searched-- close to the muzzle that 200 gr. 358 bullet cut a twig then deflected into the deer's hind 1/4.

Big slow bullets DONT always go straight. BTDT---That is the only deer out of more than 100 I ever hit in the butt.

I don't TRY to shoot thru brush with anything.

Jerry

I shot at a deer with a 45-70 Handloaded with a 300gr. HP.
I never found a drop of blood.
I went to a gravel pit and took a few shots
the rifle was sighted in fine.
Either I had flinched or the bullet disintegrated after hitting a twig.
I decided that either way that rifle needed to go to somebody else. I replaced it with a 35 Whelen,
problem solved.

My only brush busting experience ended up (luckily) with a good result. I was sitting about 100 yards off the shoreline of a lake on a corner where deer liked to move. Buck came in from my far right. I shoot right handed. I pivoted around when he was behind a tree, waited for him to come out and took the shot. I spined him. Long story short, next day I sat in the same identical spot and found a neatly cut off sapling about the diameter of my finger about 10 feet off the gun barrel. I never even saw it when I shot. The bullet traveled about 65 yards and hit the deer. Gun was a Model 99 Savage in 300 Savage with Remington factory loads-the old 180 gr. round nose.

I, too, recall that/those article(s). IIRC, the 6.5x55 with that long 160 grain bullet and fast twist did really, really well. However, the take away was that "bucking brush" was FOS and any interference at all was going to cause a serious deflection no matter the bullet, or cartridge.

'Tis the stuff many a magazine article was made of back in the 60's and 70's. There are a lot of hunters out there with mis-guided beliefs fueled by old wive's tales, rumor, and innuendo. See the deer, shoot the deer- it ain't rocket science. Sometimes I think we mind-f*ck this whole business of shooting deer. I'm as guilty as the next guy for having fretted over the ideal deer hunting rig, but the simple truth is put any old bullet of any old caliber into the right spot and the deed is done. Truth be told, I've killed as many if not more deer in my life with .45 and .50 caliber round balls at 16-1700fps as with all the centerfire rifles at my disposal. I prefer to save my fretting for stuff that really matters- which beer to drink on Friday night and which color underwear to put on in the morning!

I mostly agree, there was a thread.. whats the ideal deer rifle? Whatever the heck I have in my hand. I've said it before and will say it again, I"d have no qualms with a 22LR if it was legal.

I will say some deer just don't die, I've seen a couple of examples of double lungs that survived. But those are REALLY RARE.

There are always going to be some circumstances that dictate either having the right gun or shot choice, or passing the shot, but thats the case regardless generally speaking.

Brush bucking, well I was taught to miss anything between myself and the animal was the only sure way. If I just had to... I'd actually probably prefer #4 buck and close enough.. or #1, lots more "chances"

And I've been deflected twice. Once a lost deer, that lived IMHO, broke his leg low after hitting a vine I never saw. And once a missed deer, and I looked and looked for that deer, then went and shot the gun and it hit a dime size marker at that distance so even though I never found the twig, I dang sure never found the deer or buzzards either.

Sure makes life a lot easier, eh?

Sam Adams...or Budweiser??

I grew up reading those old magazines. They were more interesting than my homework.

More than caliber, I aim for areas that will put the deer down NOW. I take base of neck and shoulder shots. The thick cedar swamp where I hunt oft times if a deer runs off and one is forced to wait until morning, you'll have a skeleton due to the coyotes. I've lately been gravitating to larger calibers too...favorites being a 303 Brit and 338 Federal.

I pick holes in brush, and aim VERY carefully with the intention of DRT.

Good advice. I hit a 1" grape vine once with a ML using 240gn xtp , 80grains pyrodex at the time was the standard load. 30 yards? maybe 40? deer just stared at me then trotted away. Only when I cleared my head and the smoke did i figure out that I hadnt seen the grape vine Not sure how, since I had a 2x scope, but i didnt. Bullet barely made it through, jacket separation.

2 or 3 years ago I shot at a small doe trotting across a trail. I knelt down, saw her crossing maybe 25-30 yards away form me, a few dozen feet behind some thin bushes. BIG heavy slow 460grain no excuses conical. Chip shot. Deer ran off. Snow. no blood. gone.

3 clipped twigs, each one lower and lower. we are talking what, 24"-36" of deflection over a few yards. 3 yards maybe.

I am convinced there is no brush bucking.

Too bad you didn't learn anything that was actually correct.

I don't buck brush with bullets. I HATE any shot that does not have a wide clear lane from muzzle to critter. If I see intervening brush, I don't break the sear (with one exception: I take any shot at a wounded animal escaping). But I also have a habit of hunting thick stuff, so my solutions go another route.

Brush is the reason I like low powered scopes with medium to small objective bell mounted as close to bore as possible. I want the bullet to fly along the same path that my eye is looking, especially when I am looking through a hole in brush. In thick stuff I also try to hunt in a way that lets me shoot at calm animals standing still or walking slowly very close to me. IE. On a bobcat at 12 yards or less I deliberately shot through a tennis ball size hole in hard dry twigs, after I did some leaning and looking to find a hole through. Shot a 175 class mule deer at 40 feet through a basketball sized hole as he walked slowly.

I just made a list and recall five critters killed after a bullet hit brush and tumbled, and on none of them did I see the intervening twig etc. before the shot. Sideways entry holes, hits two feet from aiming point, etc. Bad juju. On three mysterious misses, a deflected bullet was the probable cause of the miss.

I only recall two shots in my life that I deliberately shot through brush, at least 30 years ago, and I don't plan to ever take another. One was a tip sprig of fir needles and the other was flat leaves. The fir needles were within 18 inches and more likely a foot of the deer while he stood still 15 yards from me. The 6mm 95 grain Nosler Partition deflected about 45 degrees and luckily still killed the buck. The leaves were flat against the side of a black bear, touching him, and the 180 grain NP from a 30-06 went true.

My current brush battery is a .243 shooting 95 grain NP, and a 30-06 shooting either 180 Swift A-frames or 165 Hornady Interbonds.

Good point about the scope height. It's hard to thread the needle when 0 yards is 1.5" low and you're sighted in 1.5" high at 100. I've started leaving one or two guns sighted in at 75 just in case I decide to venture into the timber.

Most of where I hunt (in the woods at least) is in very thick blackjack oak and cedar thickets. I don't venture into the thick stuff often as it's the most difficult of still hunting propositions due to the 30 yard maximum visibility and the thick bed of leaves left crunchy after a hot, dry Oklahoma summer. I put together a 7.62x39 upper for my AR with a 1.75-6x32 VX-3 With heavy duplex in a cantilever mount that allows me full eye relief with my stock fully collapsed. Total weight slung and loaded is just under 7#, and it shoots the Federal Fusion 123 gr load into 1.25" groups at 100 yards. The entire package is right about 30" long with the stock collapsed and follow up shots are very quick due to the AR platform and the general lack of recoil from the Russian round. I shot a doe this past fall with it at 15 yards and she was dead within 35. The blood trail was the best I have ever followed, with immediate puddles at the area of impact the size of paper plates. Don't know if it was just a great shot or the Federal Fusion is just that good of a bullet.

No rhyme or reason to it it seems. When I hunt the brush I carry short, fast handling guns. Cartridge who cares?

Some of youse guys need to do some actual tests B4 jumping on the BS wagon.. Big subsonic hunks of lead vs a 243,30/06 etc = no contest!







Of course everyone doesn't tote a Sharps around..

You nailed IT. No further discussion is needed.

Classic!

I admit that I have certain rifles to hunt heavy brush areas. I have hunted in these areas for decades and have come to few conclusions about what works and what doesn't. All bullets (large or small) will deflect when striking brush in an erratic and unpredictable way. Shooting "through" brush is a losing proposition.

Most of the rifles I choose are of larger bore and with heavy for caliber bullets. This is NOT because I believe these rifles (or chamberings) are better at "busting brush"....because they are not. I repeat....All bullets will be deflected when striking brush.

However there are advantages to a bigger, heavier bullet. Some (but not all) deflected bullets may still strike an animal. A bigger, heavier bullet has a much better chance of penetrating and killing (or disable) an animal even though the bullet may be "tumbling" and far from the aiming point. It is simply a matter of physics. A 200 grain bullet that has deflected, deformed and quite possibly lost half it's original weight has a much better chance of still being effective that a 100 grain bullet does.

Of course the goal of any experienced hunter is to NOT strike the brush at all. To thread-the-needle and find an opening THROUGH the brush. It has been my experience that large bore rifles tend to "strike harder" and more consistently result in quick kills and short runs by animals hit. This isn't foolproof and small caliber rifles sometimes kill like lightning while bigger bore rifles sometimes result in long blood trails.....but I tend to play the odds and I've found bigger bullets to be more often quicker to kill.

The problem is that sometimes, no matter what rifle/bullet you use.....the animal WILL run. When this happens in thick brush a good blood trail can be critical to recovering your animal. Maybe I am influenced by where I grew up hunting....the Big Thicket of East Texas. I have hunted all over the United States and....not to step on any toes....most hunters have no idea what REALLY thick brush is like.

Compared to where I grew up hunting the thickets of the deep south (in places) are what I would call "thick brush" and some of the Pacific Northwest comes pretty close, but when hunters from the Northeast or Mid-west talk about "cedar breaks" or "swamps" are actually hunting in areas I would consider to be fairly open woods. I've been there and seen it....When you can SEE (not nessisarilly shoot)more than 20 yards....it is NOT what I grew up in.

In those thick areas blood trails are critical. For that reason I tend to start my choices of a "brush gun" at .30 caliber or more....usually more. My favorite guns for thickets are rifles chambered in something like the .35 Remington, .44 Magnum, .375 Winchester and .45-70. These all work very well.....with one exception.

When I grew up we had thousands of acres of this thick brush where a long shot was 50 yards or so. As times have changed and clearcut logging has become the norm....it is quite likely that you may be faced with a shot of 250 yards or more n a days hunt. When that happens those low velocity "brush rounds" become a liability.

What is needed is a round that will perform well in the thick stuff and still have the ability to reach out a bit when needed. For this reason I most often choose something like the .308 Win. or even better the .358

It is just as important to choose a rifle (no matter what it's chambering) that is quick handling. This generally means a fairly short barrel, lightweight rifle that can be brought into action quickly. Quick follow-up shots (although you hope they will never be needed) can sometimes be important as well.

My most often used "brush guns" are a pair of Savage 99s in .308 and .358 chambering. If I "know" (and you never can be sure) the ranges will be less than 150 yards I like a Ruger 44 Carbine, a Remington Model 14 (.35 Rem.) or a Winchester 94 in .375 Win.

A 'dozer blade' works well!!

Texas Rick,
You have explained it very well.
My brother in law shot a buck that was standing in brush. He thought he was aiming for the chest but the deer was looking over its shoulder and he actually shot it in the but.
The .308 penetrated the full length of the deers body luckily.
People that shoot black bear usually prefer the big fat bullets but some guys only have one rifle
that they use for everything.
I will use the .375 with 220 Hornady from now on.
I like it even better than my 35 Whelen.

Whalen, what load do you use in your .375 H & H and the 220 Hornady? I have some but have not loaded any yet.

for "brush" guns i like 33 and up. my favorite is one of my stubby barreled marlin 35's with 200 CL's. decades ago my dad shot a little spike and when we went up to it, we saw that he had shot right through about a 3" tree that he hadn't seen. deer was DRT. not a recommended use, but because it hit the tree dead center it drilled right through and didn't deflect.