Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting How Much Wind Risk Are You Willing To Take?

I try really hard to never underestimate my ability to overestimate my ability.....

I've had my own dose of wind snafu's out west.....played with it intentionally ( on rocks not animals) to see the effects.Shoot through it at the range, etc etc.

Mostly saw it back in the days when I was a lot more innocent about it than later on.

I've passed shots I considered to be "risky" in the wind....but also made one of my longest ever after "doping", which was really a well educated guess.

I wonder sometimes,lets say at 400-700 yards, how much correction do people find acceptable on an unwounded bull elk at 400 + yards?

How much full value wind will make you take a pass on the shot?

I ask because the subject seems to get a lot of press on here.

Thanks.

Travis that's pretty good Id say!

20 is moving right along,no?

I measure by how much rope stays in the air from the dog to the owner with a 20 foot rope...

I've been a meteorologist for more than 35 years and in the last 15 years have specialized in microscale and mesoscale meteorology, especially doping the wind for wildland firefighters so they could stay out of the way of really large, fast-moving fires that are primarily moved by the wind.

Unless you're VERY skilled, figuring wind across a canyon is mostly a matter of luck. And even if you're very skilled, you won't get it right every time...sometimes not even most of the time.

Look at a small stream, how it moves quickly in the middle, slows near the sides and eddies where it actually makes contact with the bank. Then the eddies make contact with the slower water, causing turbulence, and the slower water creates friction with the faster water, which constantly moves the boundary between the areas of water moving at different speeds.

Now translate all of that into a vertical dimension rather than horizontal, switch the water for wind and you'll have SOME of the variability encountered in valley winds.

Kestrels are handy but they have their own limitations. Essentially, you have to accept that they are only measuring the wind they are exposed to - the wind at the height above the ground you're holding it, at the elevation on the hillside you're standing on, and only THAT hillside. It simply will not be the same in the center of the valley or on the other side of the valley.

Drawing a straight line across a valley to represent the path of a bullet, the center of the valley will generally have stronger winds because of less friction with the surface. Occasionally it will have much stronger winds because of the venturi effect that comes into play when wind is being funneled through a valley that is becoming narrower in the direction the wind is traveling.

If the valley is curving, you'll also get some rising motion on the outside edge, just like rushing water trying to make it around a tight bend in the river. We once had a nighttime backfire go exactly the wrong direction because down-valley winds picked up enough to push air up and over a cliffside that was directly above a bend in the river (the top of the cliff was where we lit our backfire).

Rising air will also play havoc with winds as the ground heats up in the afternoon. And since one side of the valley will almost always have different surface temps than the other side, influence on horizontally-moving wind will vary across the canyon, too.

Even when the wind is steady, friction with the surface will cause turbulence that builds steadily upward, turning your winds in multiple directions until it gets so far from the surface that it disengages - wherein the turbulence suddenly collapses and the wind becomes steady again. This steadiness only lasts until friction starts creating turbulence at ground-level again, building upwards from the surface in an ever-continuing cycle.

The motto of this story is simple: if you have still or very light winds, you might chance a long shot across a canyon and you will probably do well if you're a skilled shooter and if you don't wait long enough for conditions to change. But never assume the wind is doing anything you can count on - especially over long distances - and be ready for the consequences.

Not much. That's because over the years of shooting at rocks, I've learned that in the field, at least in the mountains and deserts here in the west, the wind can do lots of tricky things.
Your elk at 400 yds. would have to be holding still with less than 3 mph wind and it would have to be in a steady direction. On top of that, I'd need to range him with a LRF, and have a solid rest to shoot from. Above all, I'd have to have field tested the load I was using at said distance(s) in such a wind....
I might be inclined to shoot at a deer more readily simply because they die easier than the big tough animals with a less than good hit.
The other thing is that if he's holding still for all of the above, he probably doesn't know I'm around. Therefore, I can try getting closer. Yes, you can get closer even across open ground. I've done it with both elk and pronghorn. E

I've had my own dose of wind snafu's out west.....played with it intentionally ( on rocks not animals) to see the effects.Shoot through it at the range, etc etc.

Mostly saw it back in the days when I was a lot more innocent about it than later on.

I've passed shots I considered to be "risky" in the wind....but also made one of my longest ever after "doping", which was really a well educated guess.

I wonder sometimes,lets say at 400-700 yards, how much correction do people find acceptable on an unwounded bull elk at 400 + yards?

How much full value wind will make you take a pass on the shot?

I ask because the subject seems to get a lot of press on here.

Thanks.

Expert on wind and how it works..... dip schitt on actual shooting in it.....

People who ACTUALLY SHOOT..... will have an ACTUALL grasp on their abilities.....

Wankers who like to tell other people what/when/where/how to shoot.... but actually do very little of it themselves.... have no idea what their personal limits are..... because they're inside pounding away on a keyboard when then wind is blowing harder than 2-3mph.

Knowing what shots not to take.... takes experience. You don't get that experience by NOT shooting in the wind......

But, I KNOW my limitations in the field.... because I push them all the time.

Like I tell my sales guys all the time: if you don't Know..... then it's No....

The only thing shooting in wind has taught me, is how hard it is to hit things at distance in the wind.

Shooting steel that doesn't run away when you miss, is easy enough to hit through trial and error. To boast you can guess drift before ever firing a shot in volatile conditions is probably as much luck as skill. I have a drift chart and meter, but you have to assume a lot of things before pulling the trigger.

One thing that has not been mentioned is the value of a spotter in wind conditions, If you are shooting alone you are at a disadvantage in windy conditions if you have an unexperienced spotter you have the same disadvantage. If you have a spotter with the same experience as you do you can extend your range several hundred yards.

With my longtime hunting partner both of us made longrange hits in the wind several times past the mile mark, my hunting partner moved on to other things. I took my lifelong best friend with me on a hunting trip last year.....took a shot at 900yards........Where did it hit ??????

Lets go home....

Those that live in the myopia of one shot one kill have a spotter that are as good as they are.....and sometimes they miss the first and hit on the second !!!!!! No chance on the second with a crappy spotter.....

PM your address and I'll send a shoehorn to help remove your head from your ass.



Dave

PM your address and I'll send a shoehorn to help remove your head from your ass.



Dave

I've been a meteorologist for more than 35 years and in the last 15 years have specialized in microscale and mesoscale meteorology, especially doping the wind for wildland firefighters so they could stay out of the way of really large, fast-moving fires that are primarily moved by the wind.

Unless you're VERY skilled, figuring wind across a canyon is mostly a matter of luck. And even if you're very skilled, you won't get it right every time...sometimes not even most of the time.

Look at a small stream, how it moves quickly in the middle, slows near the sides and eddies where it actually makes contact with the bank. Then the eddies make contact with the slower water, causing turbulence, and the slower water creates friction with the faster water, which constantly moves the boundary between the areas of water moving at different speeds.

Now translate all of that into a vertical dimension rather than horizontal, switch the water for wind and you'll have SOME of the variability encountered in valley winds.

Kestrels are handy but they have their own limitations. Essentially, you have to accept that they are only measuring the wind they are exposed to - the wind at the height above the ground you're holding it, at the elevation on the hillside you're standing on, and only THAT hillside. It simply will not be the same in the center of the valley or on the other side of the valley.

Drawing a straight line across a valley to represent the path of a bullet, the center of the valley will generally have stronger winds because of less friction with the surface. Occasionally it will have much stronger winds because of the venturi effect that comes into play when wind is being funneled through a valley that is becoming narrower in the direction the wind is traveling.

If the valley is curving, you'll also get some rising motion on the outside edge, just like rushing water trying to make it around a tight bend in the river. We once had a nighttime backfire go exactly the wrong direction because down-valley winds picked up enough to push air up and over a cliffside that was directly above a bend in the river (the top of the cliff was where we lit our backfire).

Rising air will also play havoc with winds as the ground heats up in the afternoon. And since one side of the valley will almost always have different surface temps than the other side, influence on horizontally-moving wind will vary across the canyon, too.

Even when the wind is steady, friction with the surface will cause turbulence that builds steadily upward, turning your winds in multiple directions until it gets so far from the surface that it disengages - wherein the turbulence suddenly collapses and the wind becomes steady again. This steadiness only lasts until friction starts creating turbulence at ground-level again, building upwards from the surface in an ever-continuing cycle.

The motto of this story is simple: if you have still or very light winds, you might chance a long shot across a canyon and you will probably do well if you're a skilled shooter and if you don't wait long enough for conditions to change. But never assume the wind is doing anything you can count on - especially over long distances - and be ready for the consequences.

"You missed two MOA wide at that antelope 1 mile away. Shoot again."

Travis

He's delusional and sociopathic.

Using a kestrel will help greatly. No guessing the wind speed.I hate shooting in the wind, but I shoot in it as much as I can up to 20mph. If you do it enough, you will gain confidence in your equip, and yourself. Its amazing the difference in bullets and drift. I shot a while back in a 17mph crosswind at 500yds.I shot my 243 with 105 hybrids. 1 mill of wind drift. 3 shots centered perfectly 2.75". I then shot my 30 06 with 180 gr corelokts. I had to hold 2 mills of wind. Same target same distance same wind speed. 3 shots 5"group. Its hard to believe that I had to hold twice the wind.BC really makes a difference.

What, you guys aren't OK with "shoot one and dial" on animals?

I do it all the time. On prairie dogs.......

" Even if you have the finest .338 WTF in the world and have accounted for every perceivable variable, you are going to fugk up sometimes. Which is why I think more people should practice in the worst possible conditions they plan on hunting in, pick a max range, and leave it at that."

THAT'S IT: Simplify, practice until you KNOW it, not just think it, and "leave it at that".

Well done.

BobinNH,

If you're ever in OR, shoot me a PM. You've got an open invite to shoot some steel and bull... I'm sure we can exchange info and stories

I have no doubt that some shoot really well in heavy wind, but in the coastrange of OR you need to be skilled at reading the terrain as I've seen 5-10 mph full value hand people their asses. We've had bullets impact opposite the direction of perceived wind, and bullets get lifted by extreme terrain. Wind swirling around a knob can do a 180, and steep ridges will lift a bullet. Then there are wind shadows. Elevation on the coast isn't that high (2000' or so), but it's rugged and sometimes the clear-cuts don't provide many clues.

Fellas shooting in the PNWet have an advantage. It's the fog. There are countless times where I've seen the wind moving in completely different directions depending on elevation. One layer will be moving L-to-R, and another layer R-to-L, all in the same valley. The downside is that wisps of fog are good, but heavy fog will make a LRF useless.

On a feature-less plain with fairly constant wind, I could see how one could do really well in heavy wind. Where we shoot, a 10 mph wind can be pretty challenging at 400y, and really tough at 500y. The wind hold needs to factor in the terrain for the 10 mph wind and this is where it messes with the shooter. For the most part, a 5 mph full value has proven to be very shootable for our hunting weight rifles out to 500 from field positions. We consider hits on 6-8" targets acceptable, and anything else a botched shot. Tight groups on the edge of a manhole cover don't count

Jason

Growing up in Wyoming, you kinda just get a feel for it. 20 mph was common. 30-40 mph gusts happened a lot. Wind reduces your range. Just too much drift to ethically shoot an animal (except prairie dogs and coyotes) at 300+ yards in high wind. Too great a chance for a Texas heart shot..

Thats one hell of a wind if it blows it to the side and then around the back end, to change course and hit a TX heart shot.....

Thats one hell of a wind if it blows it to the side and then around the back end, to change course and hit a TX heart shot.....

I had an experience shooting a bull at about ~ 450 yds across a canyon in Co some years back that impressed upon me greatly how the wind even with the best of gear and info could really ruin your day.

I found a bull at 8:00 am, slowly feeding up, broadside on a trail in front of a vertical cliff. The bull was feeding toward a copse of trees at the top no doubt to bed. The wind was at 90 degrees to my anticipated shot, left to right, at about 20 mph; at least that's what the forecast predicted. It as about a -20 wind chill too.

I hesitated briefly because of the wind but had a Volkswagen Bug-sized Boulder right in front of me and laying over my pack on it it was as good as it ever gets in the field.

I had some model of Leupold scope at the time with the B&C reticle with the 10 and 20 mph wind hash marks on my 340 at the time and placed the 20 mph hashmark of the appropriate vertical on the bull's chest and squeezed off.

There was a loud crack and dust flew from the rock wall behind the bull as it seemed to turn a 180 and then I thought I saw legs in the air just as it was getting behind another boulder.

I was shooting a 210-gr TSX at about 3050 fps if memory serves. Upon climbing down and then back up the other side of the canyon I found the bull with the bullet entrance being in the distal part of the neck not that far below the lower jaw. It broke his neck and killed him instantly then hit the rock wall with enough force to knock a big chunk out.

But the question, why was the hit a good two feet to the left and in the neck, was answered by realizing the wind "up there" on the bull's side of the canyon was just as strong as my side but going in the opposite direction, something indeterminable from that side because he was essentially on a rock slide with no tale-telling vegetation whipping about. The wind on both sides of the canyon in this instance effectively canceled each other out.

As there is anything from 15-20+ inches of horizontal movement at 400 yds with a 90 degree, 20 mph wind, with a whole hat full of cartridges, let alone these other kinds of complicating factors in the mountains, I take each circumstance individually and decide if it's an ethical shot for me or not but won't shoot past 400 with more than a 20 mph wind on an elk sized animal and preferably much less.

Oh the rifle was a .300 Ultra with a 200 gr. SBT.

Lefty

Bob,

I had a similar situation about ten years ago. 550 yards nice bull across a deep ravine. Wind blowing like hell. I saw a nice round rock about a 100 yards to the right of the Bull and held right on it. I hit about 4 feet to the right went back to the elk held off and fired. He fell over right there and stayed down. 2 1/2 hours later I got to the elk. Broke his neck. If that shot had been 4 or 5 inches either way would have lost him.
Pretty reckless and lucky, and I more than likely won't do it again but it worked pretty good that time.
Oh the rifle was a .300 Ultra with a 200 gr. SBT.

Lefty

Thanks Jeff. Since I've seen Hodnett and some of his "students" shoot several times, in wind, I do understand what you said, very well in fact. I just do not have the equipment, time, nor desire to become what I'd consider "good enough" to start launching sighters and such at big game animals. Hogs, coyotes, and other vermin....no problem, and I practice on those myself.

Jeff I have some top shelf competitive shooters as close friends and I sometimes shoot with them. They understand your language.

I am not in the class with you nor them. You guys operate in a different league. When I practice i take my conditions as they come, note effects,and adapt.

In the field sometimes adapting means not taking the chance. I won't pull a trigger on an animal unless I am 90%+ certain of positive results.

My options were exercised decades ago....due to time constraints, work, family I had time to compete.....or hunt. Not both.

I chose to hunt and live within my shooting limitations.

I understand exactly what you were saying.

It's not the amount of correction that matters.

It the amount of variance in the gusts.

I dropped an antelope in a 40 MPH full value crosswind, but it was dead steady. No gusting, no variation. Dial it in, allow for the spindrift, simple.

I've had some less spectacular results with lower, but more variable wind values.

I'd love to spend time in open country learning long range shooting from people who are really good at it. That is both a science and an art. I simply cannot comprehend all that it takes to connect on 500 yard shots, let alone pushing a half mile. It fascinates me.

Paul, it's not as hard as you think. I thought the same when I moved out west but connecting at 500 came pretty quickly. It's everything beyond that that takes practice. And it's not only fascinating, it's one of the things that's the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

I'd love to spend time in open country learning long range shooting from people who are really good at it. That is both a science and an art. I simply cannot comprehend all that it takes to connect on 500 yard shots, let alone pushing a half mile. It fascinates me.

Just south of Denver. The best shooting is out east, where the huntsmen roam the plains.

I'd live down in the San Juans but the need to keep my job prevents that.

Drive out here. My ranges goes to 1K.

Bring beer.

And boudin.



Dave