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Questin about bushing breach plug conversion. If i change to a bushing breach plug, do i have to adjust the headspace??? No
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Joined: Dec 2012
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henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum. Well its obvious that was not true. You should show up at Friendship and shoot in the inline match. If you want to shoot just against smokeless builds, Feel free to enter the Kentucky challenge. http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/the-kentucky-challenge/The overall winner last year shot this. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y521/pittmankyle/300%20yd%20Kentucky_zps5kzptof2.jpg)
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,258
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To you couple of poopy pants traditional gatekeepers,
You don't have have to read or reply to anything regarding smokeless guns. Charlatanism is unbecoming and provides nothing meaningful to the conversation. They may not appeal to you but I got into them because there are Army posts that have big deer and don't allow metallic guns. I started making high BC bullets for these because they were fascinating to me. They do what they were intended to do (safely) and the sabotless conversions are even more capable.
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Joined: May 2004
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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To you couple of poopy pants traditional gatekeepers,
You don't have have to read or reply to anything regarding smokeless guns. Charlatanism is unbecoming and provides nothing meaningful to the conversation. They may not appeal to you but I got into them because there are Army posts that have big deer and don't allow metallic guns. I started making high BC bullets for these because they were fascinating to me. They do what they were intended to do (safely) and the sabotless conversions are even more capable. Don't recall I was talking to you Willis. I don't give a flying phuoc what you shoot, where or when. OTOH, when someone says something totally ludricus such as... Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder. ...use your imagination to visualize that other folks might call it what it is, BS. I shoot several ML guns that are in the range of 120-140 years old. Should be obvious that with a modicum of proper care they somehow avoid death by BP. While we're chatting, what to you call a high BC bullet? Is your inline not metallic, thus legal on the Army posts? Shooting over the fence? I wait with anticipation.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,258
Campfire Regular
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The thing about public forums is you are talking to all of us. That's how this works because it is public and it's a forum. I'm weighing in just like you did.
When the comment was made about ruining an ML, I do not think it was intended as a broad description of sporting arms that load through the muzzle but probably refers to the model designation: Savage ML-II. I could be wrong but I would bet it was short hand. Where I would say that is an accurate statement about them getting ruined is the number I have seen (used) in gunshops or online that have pitting from lack of maintenance. Same can be said of the Remington 700ML. These are the two most popular platforms for conversion and a number of them need blasting to remove oxidation and prevent further pitting. Proper maintenance prevents it but maintenance is not a strong suit for lots of gun owners.
I call high BC in a .45 anything over .400 G1 since the standard for inlines has been pistol type bullets for decades. My 302gn bullet sits between .400 and .420 G1 depending on MV, my 344gn at .455-.475 G1, and my 415gn is in the mid to high .500s but I'm still drop testing it between 500 and 900m.
No, my guns are not "metallic". Metallic was in reference to ammunition (ie metallic reloading vice reloading a shotshell). My guns load through the muzzle and have breech plugs which makes them muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloading is legal so the guns are kosher according to manner of taking regulations.
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,940
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Don't ruin an ML by using anything but smokeless powder. When the comment was made about ruining an ML, I do not think it was intended as a broad description of sporting arms that load through the muzzle but probably refers to the model designation: Savage ML-II. I think that's the issue here that has some folk seeing red, mistaking the reference of "an ML" as meaning muzzle-loader. I'm not gonna get involved in the argument of who's right or wrong. Too bad narrow mindedness puts otherwise like minded people at odds, but it's been going on for decades and isn't likely to stop anytime soon. Archery vs firearms, vertical vs crossbow, cartridge vs muzzleloader and you can break each category down ad nauseam. Sad that
Charter Member
Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
"It's an insecure and petite man who demands all others like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes."
szihn
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Joined: May 2004
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
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The thing about public forums is you are talking to all of us. That's how this works because it is public and it's a forum. I'm weighing in just like you did.
When the comment was made about ruining an ML, I do not think it was intended as a broad description of sporting arms that load through the muzzle but probably refers to the model designation: Savage ML-II. I could be wrong but I would bet it was short hand. Where I would say that is an accurate statement about them getting ruined is the number I have seen (used) in gunshops or online that have pitting from lack of maintenance. Same can be said of the Remington 700ML. These are the two most popular platforms for conversion and a number of them need blasting to remove oxidation and prevent further pitting. Proper maintenance prevents it but maintenance is not a strong suit for lots of gun owners.
I call high BC in a .45 anything over .400 G1 since the standard for inlines has been pistol type bullets for decades. My 302gn bullet sits between .400 and .420 G1 depending on MV, my 344gn at .455-.475 G1, and my 415gn is in the mid to high .500s but I'm still drop testing it between 500 and 900m.
No, my guns are not "metallic". Metallic was in reference to ammunition (ie metallic reloading vice reloading a shotshell). My guns load through the muzzle and have breech plugs which makes them muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloading is legal so the guns are kosher according to manner of taking regulations. Specificity is the path to salvation when pecking at the keyboard.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 53,303
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
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henceforth I'll be posting ANYTHING that has to do with REAL MLs over on the BPCR forum. Well its obvious that was not true. You should show up at Friendship and shoot in the inline match. If you want to shoot just against smokeless builds, Feel free to enter the Kentucky challenge. http://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/the-kentucky-challenge/The overall winner last year shot this. Damned fine shooting that, and of a grade that calls out a damn fine rifle,...and accurate rifles, as The Col.W. said are INTERESTING. And I'm gonna' agree that a poorly chosen combination of words lit this off. Well its obvious that was not true. Is English your first language, or are you just picking it up ? I said I wasn't putting up anything regarding traditional guns here again,... Not that I wouldn't be posting here. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,902
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
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Interesting advice from Precision Rifle muzzleloader bullets guys in Canada. They said, if buying a used savage, smokeless ML, be sure to check that a saboted bullet goes down the barrel with consistant resistance the whole way. If previous owner double loaded it by mistake, it could have a slight bulge that you could notice via a "no or little resistance" spot when seating the bullet. He said if that is the case, the barrel has been compromised and the next time somebody makes a mistake by over charging or double charging w 2 bullets, the gun could easily rupture and cause injury.
Thankfully, mine shows no such concerns. Cleaned it up, ordered new vent liners, and looking forward to shooting it soon.
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 947 |
Yes that can happen. Aftermarket barrels and good factory takeoffs are pretty easy to find though.
What powders do you have on hand? There are quite a few that work well in the Savage.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,902
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
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I only have 2 lbs of imr 4759. Looking for alternatives as this apprently is no longer made.. Also looking for good .451-.452 caliber bullets to try with my high pressure sabots... What suggestions do you guys have?
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Joined: Dec 2012
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4759 is a very good all around powder. If you can find more get it. I like VV N110 the best if shooting mostly 250gr bullets. N110 is a bit hard on sabots. The rise to peak pressure is pretty fast. Ive had my best luck with it by not going over 41gr. It produces excellent speed too.
Reloder7 is easy to find and works really well with a 300gr bullet. Its cheap, easy to ignite and very easy on sabots.
VV N120 is awesome with a 275gr to 300gr but its nearly impossible to find now. Ive heard rumors that its being imported again. Excellent speed and really clean.
One of these sabots should work for you. Most of the other sabots are probably a bit too loose.
MMP short black sabot
MMP HPH12 sabot
Harvester RED Crushrib for smokeless
Get a box of cheap 250gr or 300gr XTPs. Not the 240gr XTP mags. Use these to get it sighted in and for getting used to the MLII. They will kill deer just fine too. Once you get it shooting good buy some Barnes or other highend bullets.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 993
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My question is can a guy build a smokeless muzzleloader off of a Thompson center black diamond XR if you have a breech plug built for this gun?
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Joined: Aug 2010
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I wouldn't even consider it. Those actions were built specifically for BP. The Savage and Rem conversions use an action build for smokeless powder.
If you want to shoot smokeless in a front stuffer, get the right tool for the job.
“Lighten up Francis”
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Posts: 993 |
Would the Ruger 77/50 work?
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Would the Ruger 77/50 work? Badger Ridge offers a sealed 209 conversion for the Ruger 77/50. Getting someone to make you a smokeless barrel for it might be expensive. You can get into a CVA Scout or Hunter 45cal conversion for less. Under $600 for Scout and under $500 for Hunter including the conversion.
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,332 |
I am going to sound a bit preachy here for a sec, so bear with me...
If this conversion you seem to be set on goes wrong, you are in a world of hurt. Just youtube muzzleloader explosions or failures before you get to excited about converting a muzzleloader to shoot smokeless. I know the Savage is expensive but twenty minutes of watching guys have guns explode might change your mind. Get the right tool for the job from the start and don't try to patch something together that could blow up right next to your face with your hands wrapped around it.
That is my $.02.
“Lighten up Francis”
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Joined: May 2005
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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My question is can a guy build a smokeless muzzleloader off of a Thompson center black diamond XR if you have a breech plug built for this gun? It is not recommended to use smokeless in any plunger type action.
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Joined: Dec 2012
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Campfire Regular
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Savage large shank is 1.12 Ruger77 shank is 1.15 Rem700ML shank is 1.25 unless you go Remage then its the same as a Savage. In theory it would be possible to have a barrel made that would be just as strong as a Savage large shank and stronger than a Savage small shank. The Badger Ridge Ruger77 209 conversion is very similar to the Rem700ML conversion that tons of people have used for building SMLs. The Ruger77 bolt though has actual locking lugs. Neither the Savage MLII or Rem700ML had them. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.badgerridgeind.com/uploads/5/0/6/2/50623279/converted-bolt_orig.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.badgerridgeind.com/uploads/5/0/6/2/50623279/bolt-feeding-primer_orig.jpg) Cost of the barrel is the big issue since its uncommon and would be a one of production. Im sure the barrel alone will be over $500 plus all the labor.
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