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Originally Posted by jwall
" Ernie the UN-tactical"

I like that !

Like J Foxworthy about clothes style.

I take 'tactical' only so far. !


Jerry

I hope I put a smile on your face grin


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Originally Posted by xphunter
Originally Posted by jwall
" Ernie the UN-tactical"

I like that ! < grin >

Like J Foxworthy about clothes style.

I take 'tactical' only so far. !


Jerry

I hope I put a smile on your face grin


Sure - didn't you see the GRIN ? whistle

grin grin


Jerry


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YES!


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Originally Posted by Deflagrate
Originally Posted by rost495

I really assumed by this day and time folks would know that an offhand zero and a slung up sitting or prone zero can be different.

And that just because the gun is on for me, doesnt' mean its on for you.


Actually, no. Most folks still don't know that. The majority still believe someone else, like the store deskclerk, can sight-in their rifle for them. Old wives' tales die hard even in "enlightened" high tech times.
You must remember that we live in an age when few of us have even been in the military and practiced slung up and offhand, sitting and prone. The majority males under 60 were busy with "other responsibilities" or were "too smart for the military" as it has been put to me numerous times in rather arrogant and defensive ways. Then these same guys tell me how experienced with firearms they are. Yep, Uncle Bill took them out to plink a few times.
The average guy actually is barely aware of how his rifle works. He puts in "bullets" and it goes bang. I've been at the range and had someone ask me "how to put the bullets" in his rifle or pistol.
A coworker (a retired Navy Chief no less) told me his "dad sited in the rifle before he passed" so he "didn't need too". That's a quote folks.
Most people who post here don't fall into the category of dork I've just illustrated above. If you do fall into that category, ignorance is easily fixed, stupid isn't.
There is usually a different poi difference between shooting off a bench and shooting prone. You can see it better with a really accurate rifle. Its all recoil related. Mine shoots a tad higher off the bench.( quarter inch). Not a big deal on an elk at 200yds. A pretty big deal on a coyote at 5 or 6 hundred yds. I sight in from the prone position because of this.

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At what distance-shooting standing-do the will not shoot at game offhand crowd lose their ability to consistently hit a gallon milk jug?

Last edited by battue; 04/26/16.

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Perhaps it is my technique off the bench, but my rifles seem to shoot pretty much on from off hand, from a hasty sling, or when I can "cheat," which is as often as I can quickly locate a tree, post, or whatever to brace against. I usually do not put the rifle directly against the brace, but rather a gloved hand or brace my arm against the aid.

For off hand practice, I use a scoped air gun in the garage. Targets are printed shioluettes, and they are little bitty cusses. This seems to sharpen my field shooting.

I did not bring up the alcohol / tranquilizer story as a recommendation. It is a true story as to how some of the old timers coped with the pressure of competition and what they did to gain a winning edge. (Personally, I have never learned to like most of the stuff. Some years I drink a marguritta on the rocks, some years I don't.) But then, I was never movitated to try to become a championship level bulls eye shooter, just pretty good made me happy. PPC was more fun.....t

BTW, deflave is on to something. Mastering the double action revolver will improve not only your SA shooting, but also your rifle shooting. I think it is trigger control!

Best,

Jack

Last edited by jt402; 04/26/16.

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Depends on the gun (handgun or rifle ).
Depends on the whether or not I have sling.
Depends on my heart rate. Have I been still hunting or have I just got through going up a mountain ridge as fast as possible?
Where I hunt for antelope and deer is in wide-open spaces. After stalking, why in the world would I want to stand up to shoot at an animal?
I regularly hunt Whitetail, mule deer, antelope and elk and after all these years I've only taken one shot from the standing position and it was with a handgun. I always try to get as low as possible or a steady as possible
A milk jug is not my target since the vitals of a big game animals are some times larger than that.
My typical targets are 5" and 10".
I have larger ones too.
It's kind of reasonable to say if I haven't been practicing from a certain position I either won't use it or I will limit my distance.


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Hunting the open spaces is obviously different than hunting the wood.

We often just mess around with a .22lr at clay targets, on a bank of dirt, off hand at 100. Bust them and then start shooting at the pieces. Obviously don't hit them all, but then again for the most part don't miss by much either.

Being an Eastern wood hunter for the most part, not being able to shoot offhand well is like being a pro golfer and having a bad short game.


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I shoot fine off hand, but it's a skill set I rarely need.
Since I hunt in the wide open spaces of the west I guess I could use your analogy of a golf game and apply it to longer-range capabilities from a variety of field positions.


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Originally Posted by jt402
Perhaps it is my technique off the bench, but my rifles seem to shoot pretty much on from off hand, from a hasty sling, or when I can "cheat," which is as often as I can quickly locate a tree, post, or whatever to brace against. I usually do not put the rifle directly against the brace, but rather a gloved hand or brace my arm against the aid.

For off hand practice, I use a scoped air gun in the garage. Targets are printed shioluettes, and they are little bitty cusses. This seems to sharpen my field shooting.

I did not bring up the alcohol / tranquilizer story as a recommendation. It is a true story as to how some of the old timers coped with the pressure of competition and what they did to gain a winning edge. (Personally, I have never learned to like most of the stuff. Some years I drink a marguritta on the rocks, some years I don't.) But then, I was never movitated to try to become a championship level bulls eye shooter, just pretty good made me happy. PPC was more fun.....t

BTW, deflave is on to something. Mastering the double action revolver will improve not only your SA shooting, but also your rifle shooting. I think it is trigger control!

Best,

Jack


Either you are really lucky or you are not putting much sling tension on the gun for the zero's to be the same. I think it affects iron sights more than optics but there is still a change in impact.

The bottom line, if it works for you thats all that matters.

RE bracing, I"ve never known anyone to suggest you don't use some insulation between the gun and a hard object, thats the way you are supposed to do it, so you are doing that correctly.


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Originally Posted by atse
Originally Posted by Deflagrate
Originally Posted by rost495

I really assumed by this day and time folks would know that an offhand zero and a slung up sitting or prone zero can be different.

And that just because the gun is on for me, doesnt' mean its on for you.


Actually, no. Most folks still don't know that. The majority still believe someone else, like the store deskclerk, can sight-in their rifle for them. Old wives' tales die hard...
The average guy actually is barely aware of how his rifle works.

Most people who post here don't fall into the category of dork...


There is usually a different poi difference between shooting off a bench and shooting prone.


I agree with Deflagrate that 'most' average hunters/shooters don't know that how a rifle is 'held'/ braced affects POI.

I discovered many yrs. ago that my rifle wasn't zeroed the same for friends and vice versa.

IF IF our body ergonomics happen to be very similar... there can a lot of difference in our vision - focus/angles/refractions etc.

IMO most of us loonys have discovered these things but I'm not sure all loonys have. There is a difference between a 'gun' loony and a 'shooting' loony. You'd think they would/should know but it doesn't always work that way.

Something I started a long time ago is to 'rest' the fore end of the rifle when grouping or sighting in AS SIMILAR to field shooting conditions AS POSSIBLE.

You can alter a group or sight in by simply applying different pressure on the fore end OR butt stock.

I never use a 'tight' sling BUT... I use shooting sticks MOST of the time. When the rare off hand shot at moving game occurs I TRY to LET the fore end rest in my palm.

This might not work for YOU or someone else but it does for me.


Jerry


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I would like to add:

I've never tried to shoot 'groups' from my sticks or braced as in field positions. I've never thot of it and I KNOW I can't shoot groups nearly as well in hunting situations as from a bench or good rest. I do practice and shoot qt. oil bottles and milk jugs at varying distances from field positions.

However I can guarantee you I can shoot 1/2 minute.......

of DEER. grin

Jerry


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tongue in cheek of course... hitting a target half the size of a full grown deer, I wouldn't be pulling the trigger if I wobbled that bad. LOL.


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Originally Posted by prm
I have 3 blanks loaded up that I cycle through while sighting on various targets. Repeat a few times a night for a month prior to hunting and the sight picture really steadies out. Likewise, if I don't prepare, I know my shots will be further limited.


This is in line with my post a few weeks ago regarding dry-fire practice. I've read that Bell was a huge proponent of it. I've started using a magazine full of snap caps, and I can already see the improvement in steadier hold and calling my shots.

By the way, as for alcohol helping, sometimes it's an issue of adrenaline. Some folks get the adrenaline rush after the shooting is over, some before (i.e., buck fever). From what I understand, among other things, alcohol serves as a beta blocker that can help calm tremors and steady the nerves. Prescription beta blockers do the very same thing, only far better, and without the worry of falling out of a tree stand. whistle


"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
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FWIW I had finally overcome my mental block about shooting. The famous knee high winds.

That morning I forgot to put on my superstitious best shooting boots, and drank a huge cup of coffee on the way to the range. Full leaded coffee.

Shot the 495 in a leg match with no sighters that is the reason for my handle... won the match hands down even though one of last shots at 600 was a nerve shot for a 9, for a 199 finish at 600yards......

I learned then and there...that mental can be overcome, IE buck fever, but you have to practice boht mentally and physically to overcome it. Its(buck fever) the fear of missing or failing pure and simple...

Dry firing mixed with live firing can sure find some hidden issues.

And we never went a day without dry firing almost 30 minutes of offhand. That was to get to the point that I called decent at offhand, not good.


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On the subject of alcohol...

Many years ago some World War I aviation experts had a discussion about the pervasive use of alcohol before and even during flight by those early aviators.

Reasons given at the time were to steady nerves, and ward off the debilitating cold so often experienced in open cockpit airplanes, even in summer.

During their primary training the student pilots were often encouraged to take a nip or two before flying to help them relax. During that time all aviation was extremely dangerous. Nerves were often an issue.

In combat a flask filled with brandy was considered a standard item of personal flight gear.

Later, the historians wondered if the alcohol use had contributed to the accident rate. The old pilots that survived the war claimed that in addition to the alcohol making them feel less fearful, and numbing the cold, they believed that they actually flew better with a little alcohol in their system.

Today we would laugh and say that is like the drunk that thinks he can still drive just fine. But we are not talking drunk, just a little under the influence.

Some psychologists put the question to the test. In a controlled experiment they had two groups learn a new, unfamiliar task that took some hand and eye coordination.

One group learned while sober, the other group while slightly under the influence. After the task was mastered, each group was tested sober. Sure enough, the group that had learned the task with a bit of a buzz performed less well when they were tested sober.

The conclusion was that performance of a task learned while under the influence will be performed better at a later time if also done under the influence.

Therefore, if World War I pilots learned to fly under the influence, they probably did fly better when they continued to fly slightly buzzed.

If we learned to shoot sober, we should normally expect to shoot better sober. And safer, too.


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alcohol is not the way to deal with knee high wind.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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