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What is Smarty Pants going to compare his loads to in order to "determine" when he gets to 60k with his '06?

I agree with your premise about the other carts with higher limits, but without access to pressure testing equipment, you're flying blind. One minor whoopsie involving a popped primer was all I needed to see the light.

A feller could probably teach himself how to measure case-head expansion and get some idea about what his loads are doing, but after reading a couple of pieces about it, I decided it was more fun than I wanted to have.

Our Hero wants somebody else to go out on a limb, not do the work himself. Guys like that are usually the first ones to reach for a lawyer when stuff goes awry.


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Originally Posted by Pappy348
What is Smarty Pants going to compare his loads to in order to "determine" when he gets to 60k with his '06?


Who gives a queef about 60K PSI when shooting Arisakas and Steyr M96 SBS actions. The Steyr is claimed to be proofed at 120K PSI and Mr. Parker Otto Ackley found he couldn't destruction test the Arisakas. grin

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Years ago I worked in a small gun shop doing gunsmithing.
One of customers talked about loading four grains over the max in his .338 Winchester Magnum.
Why would you do that, I asked.
He said he and his brother were going to hunt black bears
He said they were shooting tomatoe cans full of water at 200 yds. You should see them blow up! Etc. Etc.
Next time I saw him he asked how my welding skills were.
I asked why he wanted to know

He said those little square things on the front of the bolt were starting to have hairline cracks.
I said let's send it to the factory and have them check the receiver and replace the bolt.


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Maybe the guy with a face full of bits of powder and brass!😱


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Originally Posted by Pappy348
Maybe the guy with a face full of bits of powder and brass!😱


Chill bro.

Just messing with y'all.

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Did I ever mention how my friend got a glass eye?


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Originally Posted by Bugger
My point is getting the accuracy. Probably more accuracy than needed. I get very good accuracy at the higher pressures. That is why. The 06 case is made the same as the 270 case, so those of you that think this unwarranted why don't you just keep your non- requested unwarranted opinions to your self!


What pressures are you working at?

What bullet, case, gun, powder etc... and what MV with what type of barrel and length?

I agree I get the best accuracy usually at the top end of loads, but running some over the chrono I"m not really over the top load/speed wise.

And once you start seeing pressure signs its a good thing to back off. But what pressure signs do you use? Mic the case head? With a mic not a caliper adn trained how to use a mic correctly?

Also you will almost always find as you approach top end you are not gaining MV, you may actually be sititng still or loosing sometimes. Thats beyond pressure I want to deal with for sure.

Once I stop gaining normal increments of speed on a load work up I'm done going up.

100 fps is HARD to gain without danger or doing some wild combination of things to make it all work. 200 fps above is going to take some new powder or such, you won't get there safely by normal means.

Then for rounds like the 06 the very best answer to this problem is the 300 Win/Wtby/RUM rounds.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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The WW-1 30-06 military loads were 150 gr @ 2700 fps. By WW-2 it was up to 2800 fps and modern hunting loads are usually around 2900 fps.

I can get 3000+ fps from my 22" rifle with 60 gr of H4350 which is 2 gr below max and with a powder that is not temp sensitive. There is no reason 3100 fps shouldn't be safe with a max load and a longer barrel. I actually hit 3050 fps from my gun with a max load, but got a little better accuracy at 60 gr. If 3 shots aren't inside an inch it is because I pulled a shot, the load and rifle are capable. I could care less what it does with 5 shots, I'll never shoot at game that many times.

I've loaded 165's to 2900 fps and 180's to 2800 with the same powder. All have been MOA, all are at or below book max loads and I don't consider any of them to be excessive.

I've read of guys using loads that beat those speeds by 50-75 fps;in rare cases 100 fps with really long barrels. To me it just isn't worth it for less than 100 fps. If I need more than the speeds I'm getting then one of the 300 mags will beat my speeds safely with an additional 200-300 fps.

But on the other hand I see no reason to handicap the 30-06 with the older WW-1 era loads either.


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They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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JMR- EXACTLY


Jerry


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Bugger. -

You can probably find what U R looking for Under

Reloading. Forum

Good. 30-06 loads

37 pages


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I have thought of similar things. The pressure in many rifle cartridges was set decades ago for older designs and with the fairly new technology of smokeless powder.

I wonder why this seems a joke to some. Brian Pearce has increased velocity and pressures with revolver rounds. Why couldn't it be done with rifle rounds. Of course he had access to pressure testing equipment.


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45-70 in a Marlin Lever can be fun.


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
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Originally Posted by Pappy348
Rock on, Smarty Pants!

I'm amazed that someone as briiliant as you are felt the need to ask others for advice.


This.


"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that lightening ain't distributed right." - Mark Twain
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Knew dat.


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I've been capitalizing on the 30-06 case volume for many years, and often get scorned by the purists.

I'll just throw out some physics info.

Case volume comparisons.

300 SAUM - 71-72 gr give or take.

30-06 (I've measured, after fireforming)

milsurp - 68 gr
Rem - 69 gr
Win - 71 gr
Norma - 72 gr

If you are wondering what the hell I'm trying to say, reloading probably isn't your gig.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine

Case volume comparisons.

300 SAUM - 71-72 gr give or take.

30-06 (I've measured, after fireforming)
milsurp - 68 gr
Rem - 69 gr
Win - 71 gr
Norma - 72 gr
If you are wondering what the hell I'm trying to say, reloading probably isn't your gig.


1/1/1/ which 1 is 1 ?

If it walks like a duck......


I must add - IN modern firearms.

Jerry


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Bugger,

Thanks for your definition. Just wanted to know, because when SAAMI lists +P loads they define it with a specific maximum average pressure (MAP) for that cartridge. For instance, the only rifle cartridge I can recall offhand with a SAAMI +P pressure level is the .257 Roberts, and the +P pressure is 58,000 PSI--which is less than the .30-06 standard of 60,000.

SAAMI lists the maximum average pressure for the .270 at 65,000 PSI, which is also the top MAP they list for any cartridge. There are several reasons for SAAMI to list a MAP for certain rifle cartridges under 65,000 PSI, such as erratic pressure spreads (the reason the .243 Winchester is one example) and weak brass, but the .30-06 has never shown either tendency. Instead the MAP is 60,000 because of so many old .30-06's.

I don't see any reason not to handload the .30-06 to higher pressures in a modern rifle, but the question is how's +P pressure determined?

Probably the best method for the handloader is velocity, since measuring case head expansion has so many problems it's actually pretty useless. According to one old rule of interior ballistics, when using single-based powders pressure increases at approximately twice the rate of velocity.

Another (and more precise) rule is that velocity with single-based powders increase at the same rate as the powder charge: If the powder charge increases 1%, then velocity increases 1%.

Combine both rules and the increase in presssure from 60,000 to 65,000 PSI is 8.33%. But since velocity will only increase half as much (again, with single-based powders), then the increase will be about 4.16%. In a 180-grain load at the standard 2700 fps this means an increase to 65,000 PSI will result in about 2810 fps. However, some powders already reach about that level even without increasing pressures to 65,000.

But as far as an article about such increases, well, it presents all sorts of problems, including accurate pressure-testing when working up loads--and then persuading some magazine or website to publish the results of handloads exceeding standard SAAMI pressures.

Back in Bob Hagel's day this wasn't a problem, the reason some of his .30-06 handloads reached very impressive velocities--which I am sure required pressures over 65,000 PSI. But it is today, for better or worse.


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"But as far as an article about such increases, well, it presents all sorts of problems, including accurate pressure-testing when working up loads--and then persuading some magazine or website to publish the results of handloads exceeding standard SAAMI pressures."

How does Brian Pearce get printed then. Not trying to be troublesome, but it does seem Rifle and Handloader are either cutting edge with this or reckless from what you are saying.

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Bugger - I load the 30-06 above SAAMI as you suggest. H4350 is your friend for max, temp insensitive loads.

Try this: 150 gr - 60.0 grains, 180 - 58.0 grains. I've not shot many 165's but simple extrapolation indicates 59.0 grains. You need to work up to those loads using a chronograph. Assuming a 24" barrel, stop at 60.0 grains or 3000 ft/sec with a 150, 59.0 grains or 2900 for a 165, and 58.0 grains with a 2800 with a 180.

You assume the risk here but I've shot those loads for years in many 30-06 with nary a stuck case, hard bolt lift, or loose primer pockets.


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Originally Posted by bwinters
Bugger - I load the 30-06 above SAAMI as you suggest. H4350 is your friend for max, temp insensitive loads.

Try this: 150 gr - 60.0 grains, 180 - 58.0 grains. I've not shot many 165's but simple extrapolation interpolation indicates 59.0 grains. You need to work up to those loads using a chronograph. Assuming a 24" barrel, stop at 60.0 grains or 3000 ft/sec with a 150, 59.0 grains or 2900 for a 165, and 58.0 grains with a 2800 with a 180.

You assume the risk here but I've shot those loads for years in many 30-06 with nary a stuck case, hard bolt lift, or loose primer pockets.


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