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Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by boatanchor
One thing that has not been mentioned is the value of a spotter in wind conditions, If you are shooting alone you are at a disadvantage in windy conditions if you have an unexperienced spotter you have the same disadvantage. If you have a spotter with the same experience as you do you can extend your range several hundred yards.

With my longtime hunting partner both of us made longrange hits in the wind several times past the mile mark, my hunting partner moved on to other things. I took my lifelong best friend with me on a hunting trip last year.....took a shot at 900yards........Where did it hit ??????

Lets go home....

Those that live in the myopia of one shot one kill have a spotter that are as good as they are.....and sometimes they miss the first and hit on the second !!!!!! No chance on the second with a crappy spotter.....


PM your address and I'll send a shoehorn to help remove your head from your ass.



Dave


He's delusional and sociopathic. He'd probably get pleasure from trying...

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What, you guys aren't OK with "shoot one and dial" on animals?

I do it all the time. On prairie dogs.......



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Originally Posted by czech1022
I've been a meteorologist for more than 35 years and in the last 15 years have specialized in microscale and mesoscale meteorology, especially doping the wind for wildland firefighters so they could stay out of the way of really large, fast-moving fires that are primarily moved by the wind.

Unless you're VERY skilled, figuring wind across a canyon is mostly a matter of luck. And even if you're very skilled, you won't get it right every time...sometimes not even most of the time.

Look at a small stream, how it moves quickly in the middle, slows near the sides and eddies where it actually makes contact with the bank. Then the eddies make contact with the slower water, causing turbulence, and the slower water creates friction with the faster water, which constantly moves the boundary between the areas of water moving at different speeds.

Now translate all of that into a vertical dimension rather than horizontal, switch the water for wind and you'll have SOME of the variability encountered in valley winds.

Kestrels are handy but they have their own limitations. Essentially, you have to accept that they are only measuring the wind they are exposed to - the wind at the height above the ground you're holding it, at the elevation on the hillside you're standing on, and only THAT hillside. It simply will not be the same in the center of the valley or on the other side of the valley.

Drawing a straight line across a valley to represent the path of a bullet, the center of the valley will generally have stronger winds because of less friction with the surface. Occasionally it will have much stronger winds because of the venturi effect that comes into play when wind is being funneled through a valley that is becoming narrower in the direction the wind is traveling.

If the valley is curving, you'll also get some rising motion on the outside edge, just like rushing water trying to make it around a tight bend in the river. We once had a nighttime backfire go exactly the wrong direction because down-valley winds picked up enough to push air up and over a cliffside that was directly above a bend in the river (the top of the cliff was where we lit our backfire).

Rising air will also play havoc with winds as the ground heats up in the afternoon. And since one side of the valley will almost always have different surface temps than the other side, influence on horizontally-moving wind will vary across the canyon, too.

Even when the wind is steady, friction with the surface will cause turbulence that builds steadily upward, turning your winds in multiple directions until it gets so far from the surface that it disengages - wherein the turbulence suddenly collapses and the wind becomes steady again. This steadiness only lasts until friction starts creating turbulence at ground-level again, building upwards from the surface in an ever-continuing cycle.

The motto of this story is simple: if you have still or very light winds, you might chance a long shot across a canyon and you will probably do well if you're a skilled shooter and if you don't wait long enough for conditions to change. But never assume the wind is doing anything you can count on - especially over long distances - and be ready for the consequences.


In for future reference


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Originally Posted by deflave
"You missed two MOA wide at that antelope 1 mile away. Shoot again."

Travis


And dial in another 4 miles worth of elevation because he moved.....into the next county.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by deflave




Dave


He's delusional and sociopathic.


This is hilarious, one guy accuses me of being what he is and the other can't decide if he is Dave or Travis !!! grin

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15" or 500 yards, whichever comes first but generally neither if it bleeds.

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Originally Posted by atse
Using a kestrel will help greatly. No guessing the wind speed.I hate shooting in the wind, but I shoot in it as much as I can up to 20mph. If you do it enough, you will gain confidence in your equip, and yourself. Its amazing the difference in bullets and drift. I shot a while back in a 17mph crosswind at 500yds.I shot my 243 with 105 hybrids. 1 mill of wind drift. 3 shots centered perfectly 2.75". I then shot my 30 06 with 180 gr corelokts. I had to hold 2 mills of wind. Same target same distance same wind speed. 3 shots 5"group. Its hard to believe that I had to hold twice the wind.BC really makes a difference.

If you limited yourself to 20 mph around these parts, you would lose a lot of good shooting days. On days ,when hunting , if I am unsure of a consistent wind I will work to shooting up or down wind position on antelope. I guess better down wind then up , but the goats do not like my flavor. In really windy conditions , it gets easier because even the goats hunker down in a hollow or a down wind side of a hill and are easier to get close to.
As fair as practice , I go when ever and try to better my guessing ability.
A guy on a local forum here had a picture on the range ,he claimed getting wind dope values, with a tornado passing about a mile or a little more in front of him. I would pass on a day like that......

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Originally Posted by smokepole
What, you guys aren't OK with "shoot one and dial" on animals?

I do it all the time. On prairie dogs.......


I am totally. As long as #1 is at a rock or clump of grass or such....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by czech1022
" Even if you have the finest .338 WTF in the world and have accounted for every perceivable variable, you are going to fugk up sometimes. Which is why I think more people should practice in the worst possible conditions they plan on hunting in, pick a max range, and leave it at that."

THAT'S IT: Simplify, practice until you KNOW it, not just think it, and "leave it at that".

Well done.


That would limit me to around 200 or so yards. I"ve shot in winds so strong they blow you and the gun around badly, such that past 200 I'd feel wrong..

But on an easy day... it opens up to way on out there..... past 800 just depending on the gun and my known value zero's.....

A good shooter knows when and when not to, and they are not always the same on Monday as they are on Monday evening....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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BobinNH,

If you're ever in OR, shoot me a PM. You've got an open invite to shoot some steel and bull... I'm sure we can exchange info and stories grin

I have no doubt that some shoot really well in heavy wind, but in the coastrange of OR you need to be skilled at reading the terrain as I've seen 5-10 mph full value hand people their asses. We've had bullets impact opposite the direction of perceived wind, and bullets get lifted by extreme terrain. Wind swirling around a knob can do a 180, and steep ridges will lift a bullet. Then there are wind shadows. Elevation on the coast isn't that high (2000' or so), but it's rugged and sometimes the clear-cuts don't provide many clues.

Fellas shooting in the PNWet have an advantage. It's the fog. There are countless times where I've seen the wind moving in completely different directions depending on elevation. One layer will be moving L-to-R, and another layer R-to-L, all in the same valley. The downside is that wisps of fog are good, but heavy fog will make a LRF useless.

On a feature-less plain with fairly constant wind, I could see how one could do really well in heavy wind. Where we shoot, a 10 mph wind can be pretty challenging at 400y, and really tough at 500y. The wind hold needs to factor in the terrain for the 10 mph wind and this is where it messes with the shooter. For the most part, a 5 mph full value has proven to be very shootable for our hunting weight rifles out to 500 from field positions. We consider hits on 6-8" targets acceptable, and anything else a botched shot. Tight groups on the edge of a manhole cover don't count grin

Jason


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We've got a 6"x8" plate at 610y that keeps things interesting, depending on wind direction and gusts. A bud recently made a perfect call for me and I hit 4-out-of-4 with a 7-08 Kimber, and he followed up with 5-out-of-5 with his 30-06.

Not many clues in that clearcut, but in other spots we've used flags as we're slow learners blush

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Originally Posted by 4th_point
BobinNH,

If you're ever in OR, shoot me a PM. You've got an open invite to shoot some steel and bull... I'm sure we can exchange info and stories grin

I have no doubt that some shoot really well in heavy wind, but in the coastrange of OR you need to be skilled at reading the terrain as I've seen 5-10 mph full value hand people their asses. We've had bullets impact opposite the direction of perceived wind, and bullets get lifted by extreme terrain. Wind swirling around a knob can do a 180, and steep ridges will lift a bullet. Then there are wind shadows. Elevation on the coast isn't that high (2000' or so), but it's rugged and sometimes the clear-cuts don't provide many clues.

Fellas shooting in the PNWet have an advantage. It's the fog. There are countless times where I've seen the wind moving in completely different directions depending on elevation. One layer will be moving L-to-R, and another layer R-to-L, all in the same valley. The downside is that wisps of fog are good, but heavy fog will make a LRF useless.

On a feature-less plain with fairly constant wind, I could see how one could do really well in heavy wind. Where we shoot, a 10 mph wind can be pretty challenging at 400y, and really tough at 500y. The wind hold needs to factor in the terrain for the 10 mph wind and this is where it messes with the shooter. For the most part, a 5 mph full value has proven to be very shootable for our hunting weight rifles out to 500 from field positions. We consider hits on 6-8" targets acceptable, and anything else a botched shot. Tight groups on the edge of a manhole cover don't count grin

Jason



If you don't understand how formations affect wind, and that wind comes in layers, you are lost to start with. Especially for long....

And thats not a knock on anyone, but wind is far from simple. Its exactly why only a fool can give a fixed answer to this question.

I've seen days where I'd shoot 1000 or more in a heartbeat.

There are days, as noted, if you can't get all the way to prone with a good sling or bipod, 200 could be pretty wobbly, and not just from wind on the bullet, but wind on you...

Most folks have no clue that mirage and wind are two seperate effects on bullet impact totally.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Growing up in Wyoming, you kinda just get a feel for it. 20 mph was common. 30-40 mph gusts happened a lot. Wind reduces your range. Just too much drift to ethically shoot an animal (except prairie dogs and coyotes) at 300+ yards in high wind. Too great a chance for a Texas heart shot..



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Jason I have shot wind in areas of the west, mostly Wyoming....nothing formal, mostly rock, PD's and the odd coyote at great distance just to watch results and see how much drift etc. This was years ago and made me very cautious about it.

I also saw how you could have those bad windy days but terrain would block, or deflect it, if you were below the wind somehow. I made a quick judgement in a situation like that at a big mule deer wounded by a companion one time....not much time but figured he was in the "lee"and I was below the drift. The wind was also not full value.I made no allowance and got lucky.... I hit where I needed to.

Another time I refused to shoot at a big AZ bull at about 600 straight across a big canyon,because I had distance figured, but could not dope a howling full value wind. This broke my heart because, while not an expensive hunt, it was a rare opportunity at a huge AZ bull on a hunt I knew I could never afford to duplicate again.

I probably could have taken the chance and hit him somewhere but that did not seem like a good option. I sat behind the trigger for almost an hour contemplating all this.

Even at sea level, back here at your home range at 600, the flags at the butts will be showing strong L/R, while the 300 yard flags are 90 degrees switching. It's the tunnel effect creating by trees blocking and deflecting the wind.

Drive you nuts... smile




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The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by WyColoCowboy
Growing up in Wyoming, you kinda just get a feel for it. 20 mph was common. 30-40 mph gusts happened a lot. Wind reduces your range. Just too much drift to ethically shoot an animal (except prairie dogs and coyotes) at 300+ yards in high wind. Too great a chance for a Texas heart shot..


Thats one hell of a wind if it blows it to the side and then around the back end, to change course and hit a TX heart shot.....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Thats one hell of a wind if it blows it to the side and then around the back end, to change course and hit a TX heart shot.....


You sure got that right. smile


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If you live, shoot, hunt in Kansas you have two options:

1. Shoot in the wind

2. Stay home


Even birds know not to land downwind!
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So I hear....I have never stayed home because of a little breeze.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by WyColoCowboy
Growing up in Wyoming, you kinda just get a feel for it. 20 mph was common. 30-40 mph gusts happened a lot. Wind reduces your range. Just too much drift to ethically shoot an animal (except prairie dogs and coyotes) at 300+ yards in high wind. Too great a chance for a Texas heart shot..


Thats one hell of a wind if it blows it to the side and then around the back end, to change course and hit a TX heart shot.....


In Wyoming we call that Wednesday.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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I had an experience shooting a bull at about ~ 450 yds across a canyon in Co some years back that impressed upon me greatly how the wind even with the best of gear and info could really ruin your day.

I found a bull at 8:00 am, slowly feeding up, broadside on a trail in front of a vertical cliff. The bull was feeding toward a copse of trees at the top no doubt to bed. The wind was at 90 degrees to my anticipated shot, left to right, at about 20 mph; at least that's what the forecast predicted. It as about a -20 wind chill too.

I hesitated briefly because of the wind but had a Volkswagen Bug-sized Boulder right in front of me and laying over my pack on it it was as good as it ever gets in the field.

I had some model of Leupold scope at the time with the B&C reticle with the 10 and 20 mph wind hash marks on my 340 at the time and placed the 20 mph hashmark of the appropriate vertical on the bull's chest and squeezed off.

There was a loud crack and dust flew from the rock wall behind the bull as it seemed to turn a 180 and then I thought I saw legs in the air just as it was getting behind another boulder.

I was shooting a 210-gr TSX at about 3050 fps if memory serves. Upon climbing down and then back up the other side of the canyon I found the bull with the bullet entrance being in the distal part of the neck not that far below the lower jaw. It broke his neck and killed him instantly then hit the rock wall with enough force to knock a big chunk out.

But the question, why was the hit a good two feet to the left and in the neck, was answered by realizing the wind "up there" on the bull's side of the canyon was just as strong as my side but going in the opposite direction, something indeterminable from that side because he was essentially on a rock slide with no tale-telling vegetation whipping about. The wind on both sides of the canyon in this instance effectively canceled each other out.

As there is anything from 15-20+ inches of horizontal movement at 400 yds with a 90 degree, 20 mph wind, with a whole hat full of cartridges, let alone these other kinds of complicating factors in the mountains, I take each circumstance individually and decide if it's an ethical shot for me or not but won't shoot past 400 with more than a 20 mph wind on an elk sized animal and preferably much less.

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