Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Those with professional handgun training; carry options

I have pocket carried a Seecamp in a pocket holster for over 12 years. I occasionally carry a P7M8 in a Kramer pancake holster OWB in the 4:00 position.

A couple months ago I picked up a Glock 43. With certain pants I pocket carry it (DeSantis Nemesis). I picked up an incog AIWB holster and gave that a try when the 43 just won't fit in a pocket. It's not for me however I love the holster itself, so I converted it to an OWB by switching the side the clips are on and bent them with a heat gun. It works great! I figure I can always buy more clips!

Anyway, what position do you recommend a civilian with no "professional" training carry a CCW? I seem to like a 2:00 position, straight up, no cant. It somewhat mimics an AIWB carry, but I can still use the same size pants and it is pretty comfortable too.

Can I get your carry position opinion based on your training, your experience and any confrontations for a civilian who minds his own business and avoids the wrong side of the tracks?

Oh, and I like the little Glock just fine.

I would say try some different positions, everyone is different. I like the 2 o'clock (middle age spread) helps.

AIWB, that pistol, either at about 1, or 2. With pants at 2, it is usually just inside the line of my front pants pocket, so I can easily access pocket with full hand. The holster is adjusted high enough for an easy grasp, and so it does not dig into my thigh when seated. In this position, it is easily concealed by a suit jacket, even when unbuttoned.

When wearing something very light, such as tennis shorts w/ a loose shirt having the tails out, I move it closer to 1, concealed by the shirt.

OWB, I have a tendency to favor about 4 or so, on the flat of the hip, if concealed. If not concealed, then about 3.

For me, nothing is as comfortable and fast as AIWB with the 43. I prefer this with only one clip, the outside one, inside clip removed. Or with the single clip version. But, it is something that requires one to be squared away with regular training. I have three decades of professional training, both le and military, in addition, an extensive time shooting competition, to include on a National level, though I am now retired from that aspect.

Not sure how you define “professional” training, but I’ve trained with John Farnham, Pat McNamara, Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, and some lesser-known folks if that’s what you mean.

One of the most important things I’ve learned is that you’re more likely to shoot yourself while re-holstering than while drawing, especially after a stressful encounter. In those classes, we spent a lot of time working on the draw stroke, which means an equal amount of time re-holstering, so those instructors all specified rigs that allowed a drama-free, one-handed reholster. That can be either OWB or IWB, from nearly any maker or in any style. I can say that nearly every holster-related problem I saw in those classes could be traced to user error. The only issues that were due to the gear itself came from a European military surplus holster on a skinny dress belt.

AIWB doesn’t work with my body type, but I understand its strengths and I know that some folks do good work with it. That said, both Vickers and Hackathorn prohibit it in their classes. Hackathorn felt that his material applied to any type of holster and that a student could get training reps on their own with any holster they chose. He also pointed out that most students who show up with an AIWB rig are too overweight to pick up a mag off of the ground while wearing it, so it wasn’t such a great system for them. Vickers flatly prohibits them—one student showed up with an AIWB rig and Vickers made him switch to a different one before we started. He said that it’s a workable carry system for some people, but that IF there was a problem, then you’d probably bleed out before the ambulance showed up and he wasn’t willing to take that risk in a class.

So based on my training and research, I’d say that first you should choose a holster that lets you re-holster safely, and that you should pay as much attention to your re-holster as you do to your draw. A lightning-fast reholster nearly always means that the shooter is moving too fast for safety when there’s no reason to hurry. (For what it’s worth, people who do this are nearly always unpredictable and unsafe in other aspects of training as well.) It’s hard to over-emphasize this. You reholster after every training repetition, and you re-holster after a confrontation so the cops don’t shoot you by accident. There’s no point in winning a fight if you shoot yourself immediately afterwards.

From there, put that holster in a position that’s comfortable enough for you to carry your pistol all the time without hating it.

Then find a belt and mag carriers that let you conceal your gear under the clothes you normally wear. If this is difficult, then find other clothes.

Hope this helps,


Okie John

Very good point(s) of view and very helpful. Thank you.

My theory is if I have the gun out, I am not going to reholster it. What scenario will I encounter where I am brandishing the weapon, then decide it needs to go away? I will not be handcuffing anyone or other such duties.

When I do reholster, I actually remove the holster from my belt (I use IWB), reholster the gun, reinsert into my belt.

There is so much wrong with this theory, I am not sure I can even rebut..

Gunfights dont always stay gunfights. Sometimes folks need hands laid upon them. Sometimes folks, including yourself, need aid rendered. Sometimes stuff just happens that is not conducive to a handful of gun.

In the end, a holster that is not possible to reholster, one handed, is useless...trash, and dangerous.

Think beyond the actual encounter itself and put yourself into the officer's shoes. He or she is responding to a "shots fired, bodies down" call. What do you think will happen when they see you standing there with a gun in your hand? They have no idea who you are, but they do know that you're a deadly threat. They might just shoot you for their own safety, and it wouldn't be hard for them to convince a jury that you were a threat. It takes a pretty experienced and savvy officer to give you much more than that, and with the way police are being treated these days, I wouldn't count on that kind of luck.

If you hear sirens while you're holding someone at gunpoint, then it's time to reholster but keep your hand on your pistol. You can control the bad guy verbally and draw again if needed. You can also put your hands in the air when the police arrive without dropping your pistol where the bad guy can pick it up.


On a side note, when you practice your draw stroke, do you really take your belt off after every single repetition? Seems like it would take forever to get any worthwhile training done....


Okie John

I was told by a a deputy that if I ever had an encounter in which I used deadly force and called the law I should #1: be careful what I said on the phone and #2; tell them my firearm is now secure (if it warrants such). #2 was for my safety.

I'd rather take a chance on Glock butt than on Glock penis or Glock femoral artery.

I don't carry the G43 as a primary very much, but it is very comfortable and concealable worn IWB at about 3:00-3:30 in a TT Gunleather Reinforced Mike's Special. (Sparks did not make a Criterion for this gun as of the time I ordered the TT, or I would have ordered the Criterion.)

I spent damn near 35 of the last 40 years behind a badge and 25 of that doing firearms training. In a nutshell-

Arrange your CCW gear to make the gun readily available from standing or seated positions and allows for one-hand reholstering. For most of us that means IWB at or just behind the strong side hip.

Practice until drawing and reholstering discreetly becomes autopilot.

Don't be a gear queer. Buying the newest, cool holster only insures you've pissed away all the muscle memory built into the old one.

Dress around the gun- not the other way around. Comfort is relative... would you be more comfortable unarmed?

Think in WHEN, not 'if'. When it seems you might need that pistol PDQ, get it in your hand.

Be mindful of "handgun retention", but most who conceal will find between 3 and 4 is a good way to carry!

If I hear sirens coming, I am pretty sure my face is going to be in the dirt shortly, whether or not I have reholstered.

You don't have to condone to my theory.

The problem is that it's just that, a theory. And people who have actually been in practical application of the things you're theorizing about (the people this thread was directed at) are telling you it's a bad idea.

I would seriously reconsider your theory.




Dave

Sako,

I would move your pistol's position to center line or just behind center line. AIWB appears to invite disaster and if you watch somebody on a firing line using that type of carry, you'll likely cringe. A lot.

Just my opinion. No professional training but I do read a bunch.




Dave

Yeah, it's not for me and I have no formal training. I should have stated this before; my biggest fear is getting disarmed from the rear while somebody confronts me or distracts me, hence my try at AIWB. I don't like open carry for the same reason.

I will stay at 4:00 or there about. Just trying to learn what folks think. Glocks are new to me and far different from my P7M8, which I feel may be the ultimate CCW. Though I do like that little G43 enough to give it a go.

I like 3 o'clock position, slight can't forward OWB. Also as a civilian my actual fave is a horizontal shoulder holster.
I think like most this is the stuff I was taught lo those many years ago, and have carried so long that way that it becomes the best and most familiar for me...

I've never been a fan of pocket carry for primary carry

I've never really been a fan of appendix carry other than for very specific applications