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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Being a government administered program I'm sure there are abuses and it does likely vary state to state. The general rule around here is that unemployment is paid if you lose your job and it's not your fault, i.e. you're laid off due to downsizing, your job goes away, or your employer goes out of business. If you get fired for being a douche then no benefits.
Of course Obama changed a lot of that with all the extensions which made it closer to a welfare program than the insurance it was envisioned as so things could be different now.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Sorry, Crow...you're missing the point.
Hypothetically, some might 'remove themselves' from the dole but that is an unprovable negative (unless they could show a large percentage of 'no show' claimants after instituting drug testing).
Clearly, from the info shown, there are druggies who still try to claim benefits...and are rejected. However, the drug testing still goes on!
They don't reduce the number of tests and they don't get refunds for clean tests. Therefore, the system is still costing the taxpayers more money. Until it can be proven that a far larger percentage are 'voluntarily' dropping out, the clear facts are it is costing more money...which is the point.
None of which is an argument against keeping addicts off the dole...it's just they need a better method.
And, again, this goes to the assumption that the majority of people receiving benefits (the biggest being SNAP) are addicts and cheats. This isn't so...many are working people who don't make enough and so qualify for the (rather meager) benefits of food stamps.
What of the working person who spent X years working hard and paying taxes and then loses their job through no fault of their own? UI only helps so much and despite their efforts a good job is hard to find and they're forced to apply for some benefits (benefits they helped pay for through their years of hard work). Or maybe they got a job at huge corporation that makes billions but pays their workers so cheaply they encourage/help them sign up for benefits?
Shall we require those to submit to drug tests like a criminal (or only if they're black)?
Clearly, welfare fraud is a thing. No one argues that it isn't. It's the proportion and the proposals that are incorrect.
It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...
Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.
Stupidity has no average...
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,153
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2001
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Sorry, Crow...you're missing the point.
Hypothetically, some might 'remove themselves' from the dole but that is an unprovable negative (unless they could show a large percentage of 'no show' claimants after instituting drug testing).
Clearly, from the info shown, there are druggies who still try to claim benefits...and are rejected. However, the drug testing still goes on!
They don't reduce the number of tests and they don't get refunds for clean tests. Therefore, the system is still costing the taxpayers more money. Until it can be proven that a far larger percentage are 'voluntarily' dropping out, the clear facts are it is costing more money...which is the point.
None of which is an argument against keeping addicts off the dole...it's just they need a better method.
And, again, this goes to the assumption that the majority of people receiving benefits (the biggest being SNAP) are addicts and cheats. This isn't so...many are working people who don't make enough and so qualify for the (rather meager) benefits of food stamps.
What of the working person who spent X years working hard and paying taxes and then loses their job through no fault of their own? UI only helps so much and despite their efforts a good job is hard to find and they're forced to apply for some benefits (benefits they helped pay for through their years of hard work). Or maybe they got a job at huge corporation that makes billions but pays their workers so cheaply they encourage/help them sign up for benefits?
Shall we require those to submit to drug tests like a criminal (or only if they're black)?
Clearly, welfare fraud is a thing. No one argues that it isn't. It's the proportion and the proposals that are incorrect. You can't prove that it doesn't save money and that druggies aren't self removing either. The federal government under Obama has been fighting drug testing for welfare since Florida first instituted it. As a result states that do drug testing for welfare now have to narrowly tailor their testing to first screen for suspected drug users then test them, they can't test all. The screening process is largely left to the case workers who tend to look the other way at drug use so the federal courts have largely rendered any efforts by the states ineffective. Basically you can't prove it's saving money because the feds won't let the states collect the data that will prove it, but it was pretty obvious in Florida that it removed a lot of druggies from the rolls when they knew they were going to be busted. The costs of the drug testing is very cheap, around $1 million total over seven states as cited by that leftist biased article. $1 million is a drop in the bucket out of the billions of dollars spent annually on welfare. The cost/benefit ratio potential is huge if the feds would allow full scale testing. It won't happen under Obama but hopefully sanity will prevail sooner or later.
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,491 |
Crow Hunter - yes - I sure do understand how "insurance" works - and have been on both sides of the "payer" issue as both employee and employer. That first post was not clear, as noted, and the follow-up post is another issue. How do you make the case that the employer pays nothing and the employee pays all - that a "bait and switch" is involved?
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,213
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2006
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scenario, Colorado legalizes Marijuana use,
Colorado job applicant fails the piss test,
Illegal to not hire him? No. Failing a test can be grounds for termination for state employees in Colorado. Employers can set policies more restrictive than state or federal laws.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,619
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
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Sorry, Crow...you're missing the point.
Hypothetically, some might 'remove themselves' from the dole but that is an unprovable negative (unless they could show a large percentage of 'no show' claimants after instituting drug testing).
Clearly, from the info shown, there are druggies who still try to claim benefits...and are rejected. However, the drug testing still goes on!
They don't reduce the number of tests and they don't get refunds for clean tests. Therefore, the system is still costing the taxpayers more money. Until it can be proven that a far larger percentage are 'voluntarily' dropping out, the clear facts are it is costing more money...which is the point.
None of which is an argument against keeping addicts off the dole...it's just they need a better method.
And, again, this goes to the assumption that the majority of people receiving benefits (the biggest being SNAP) are addicts and cheats. This isn't so...many are working people who don't make enough and so qualify for the (rather meager) benefits of food stamps.
What of the working person who spent X years working hard and paying taxes and then loses their job through no fault of their own? UI only helps so much and despite their efforts a good job is hard to find and they're forced to apply for some benefits (benefits they helped pay for through their years of hard work). Or maybe they got a job at huge corporation that makes billions but pays their workers so cheaply they encourage/help them sign up for benefits?
Shall we require those to submit to drug tests like a criminal (or only if they're black)?
Clearly, welfare fraud is a thing. No one argues that it isn't. It's the proportion and the proposals that are incorrect. MojoHand Sorry, but you are missing the boat, not Crow... I do not have links or internet enough to find them easily, but the numbers were there in Florida right now when the testing started. Using pre-test data as a baseline it is easy to spot where testing started on the graphs... I was under random testing for many years and as a CG Master had regular UA tests. I saw extreme failures and successes with each... For example, supervisor witnessed two co-workers in a pick-up truck and one was "obviously" snorting coke. UA done on both and both were put on the grass for a couple weeks. UAs came back negative for the one seen snorting and positive for the other... Neither was fired because coke was never found in the vehicle... failure, IMO.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,153
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,153 |
How do you make the case that the employer pays nothing and the employee pays all - that a "bait and switch" is involved?
CCCC, Employers think of employees in terms of compensation packages, the total that the employee costs. It doesn't really matter if you pay an employee $45,000 a year in wages, $5000 for Unemployment insurance and supply his health insurance for $10,000 a year, $10,000 401K match (made up numbers obviously), or if you paid him $70,000 a year with him paying his own unemployment insurance, health insurance and no 401K match. The net result to the employer is that the person costs them $70K a year. Requiring the employer to pay the unemployment, half the FICA tax, etc. is just a way of hiding how much tax the employee is really paying from his total compensation. The compensation package is a result of his employment, no employee no unemployment tax, FICA tax etc. In the end it's all compensation for his labor so he's really the one that generated it thus he really paid it no matter what column you shuffle the numbers into. That's all I meant by that.
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Posts: 42,695
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,695 |
I can tell ya in this town.....
welfare, unemployment, workers comp and drug use all sorta go hand in hand....
when it involves one of the first 3, you can bet it is involving the last one, once they are collecting and being paid to sit on their fannies all week...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 17,769 |
I delivered donations of Christmas food to the "needy" in my area a few years ago, nearly every home reeked of cigarette smoke. There were cartons of cigarettes and overflowing ashtrays everywhere. One place was occupied by a large biker dude and his family, he wore a home detention ankle monitor. In the driveway along with other vehicles was parked a Harley that other volunteers said was fancier by far than any they owned. Guess it's a matter of priorities, feeding their families took a back seat to smoking and motorcycles. Those priorities also included boozing and drugging goes without saying.
Last edited by gunswizard; 05/04/16.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You read Thinkprogress?!  Figures.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,491 |
Crow hunter - thanks - fully understand the concept you express and know that some use a more "global" view in looking at the overall economics of such situations. Some folks don't care, but good for one to grasp the concept.
OTOH, although such a take is convenient when saying that the employee should receive the benefit regardless of conditions (like being a druggie) because he/she "paid for it", fellow employees ("payers" as well) and employers can justifiably look at the druggie as gaming the overall system and not a bona fide recipient of the benefit. The "global" view may not suit the millions of folks dealing with the actual workplace situation in that drug use has been shown to affect degree of work performance, quality control, dependability, etc.
NRA Member - Life, Benefactor, Patron
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Posts: 96,121 |
Nothing to add, Crow hunter has nailed it.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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