Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting Cast Bullet question ?

This might not be the correct thread for this question but I'll start here.

Anyone have any experience using "Laser Cast" bullets ? I don't cast
my own. I hear they are really Hard. 20+ bernell. (sp)

Just want to load my own with out the problem of barrel leading.

Sorry if Iam in the wrong thread.

Rabbitdog

You are fine asking your question here Rabitt and we welcome you. Unfortunately I can't answer your question about laser cast bullets becuse unless it has been a commercially produced jacketed bullet, I have not bought or used anything other than my own cast bullets since I started loading and casting back in 1968.

But there are a bunch of others around here who probably can answer you, so hang on and one will be along shortly.

I can tell you that the leading issue is way over blown if you asked me. As long as I have been fooling with cast bullets, I have not had a lot of problems with leading once I learned about bullet alloys and how to do that correctly. I would think most commercial bullet makers would have that figured out and produce good bullets.

i have used a limited number of lazer cast in the past without issue. as made by oregon trail.
leading is a function of several things, bullet fit to the bore, velocity, the alloy mixture etc. Having a hard bullet might not work as good as a softer alloy and actually increase leading if any.
I wouldn't worry too much about it, as leading is not that much of a big deal any way.
I just cut a piece off one of those brass pot scubbers, wrap it around a normal wire gun brush, and a few licks the lead is gone, if any.
Harder bullets can be an issue to in shattering. One of the old style bullets was a hollowbase used with softer lead. Whe fired the sides would expand to fit the bore and stop gas going by. The only commercial bullets in my experience i had trouble with, was not reading the instructions.
and those were the hornady swaged wax coated .429 bullets trying to run them at 44magn velocities. They should not be run past about 800fps.

by the way you can find in one of the lyman books or via internet, the bernal rating of various alloys. Lyman no2 alloy mixture is what most molds are designed for which is about 16.5 as i remember on the hardness scale.
Wheelweights are much softer by themselves unless something like tin/antimony are added.

Everybody probably has a different method, but if I can cut and mark a bullet with my thumb nail, it is soft. If I can't cut or mark it, it is plenty hard enough for almost any cast bullet load.

Hey Ron, this over here on the wall of my loading room looks a lot like your avatar. It's Geranimo and the boys.

i have that picture hanging over my desk. Also have a couple of those rifles as in the picture that came off the san carlos indian rez, borrowed from the u.s. calvary and not returned.
I also have ONE arrow documented to cochise's band.
And i am still ticked they have not returned geronimo to arizona where he belongs with his people.

Tell it brother. What they did to him was just waaaay out of line. Check this out -->> https://www.nps.gov/guis/learn/historyculture/upload/Apaches%20at%20Fort%20Pickens.pdf

One of my nephews is the assistant city manager of Gulf Breeze, Florida where Fort Pickens is located. I have been in the room where they kept Geronomo and all over that island. They made sure he wasn't going to get away.

The Trail of Tears started very near where I now live. The stories told in this part of the country let you know the US Government has always been a liar and in many cases, a murderer as well. When I first moved here, there was a Cheorkee grave on a near by mountain that I can easly see and old hunters tell of hunting across that mountain and spending the night in the "indian cabin" that was still there then.

Not in the wrong place at all!

I have quite a bit of experience with the Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullets in several calibers.

As noted in another post, having too hard of a bullet can cause more leading than a softer bullet.

I had a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 with both .45ACP and .45 Long Colt cylinders. That pistol would NOT shoot the Laser Cast bullets without severely leading, yet when I shot the Speer swaged bullets, it didn't lead at all.

I currently have a Freedom Arms Model 97 in .45 LC that doesn't like them pushed hard, but anything below 850fps leaves no lead and is quite accurate.

Those two are the only ones that have given me grief. I shoot the Laser cast in a .458WM, .45LC, .38Spl, .357Mag, .40 S&W, and .32-20.

The only way to really tell what they will do in your firearm is to shoot them at a range of velocities.

What caliber(s) are you looking at? A softer alloy may be your friend.

BTW, there are other bullet manufacturers out there, Missouri Bullet Co LINK being one of the best, which sell "trial packs" of their bullets so you can test them.
They also sell their cast bullets either conventionally lubed or powder coated which eliminates any leading.

BTW, the word is "Brinell" after an old Swede named Brinell who came up with the method of testing hardness of materials by pushing a steel ball into the test material at a given pressure and measuring the depth of the impression to give the relative hardness.

Ed

Thanks to everyone that replied. I have been a hand loader for years. All jacketed bullets for hunting. Some handgun,but mostly rifles.

I don't hunt as much anymore but want to shoot more just for fun.
I want to load "Light". Loading 45-70, 38/357 Blackhawk,
44 Special Blackhawk. Also have my Mothers .32
Winchester Special lever gun. It is pristene inside and outand has a 1-16 twist. Would like to try light loads in that as well.
I loaded some Laser Cast .459/ 350 grain round nose flat nose in 45-70. Loaded to book speed of 1,300 FPS. Haven't tried them yet. We'll see how they work.
Just bought a New Marlin lever gun in 44 Mag. Want to load it for Deer and Hogs,

Thanks again.......Rabbitdog

Well you may be in trouble looking for a 44 magnum load to kill deer and hogs Rabbit. There are only about two dozen good bullets for doing that and about two dozen good loads for that, so your choices may be limited. And if you ask, there will be about two dozen guys to come here and tell you what they are. Heck, they may tell you even if you don't ask.

I've had pretty bad results with the Lazer Cast brand.

It's not just strictly about hardness, so much as size. A properly oversized hard bullet can still shoot just as accurately or more so than a soft bullet. I think the Lazer Cast stuff may be frequently undersized for certain bores.

Before I learned to cast my own, I used Aardvark cast bullets, because they were available locally. I always had great accuracy from them with minimal leading in a bunch of different guns, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend them. Casting my own was discouraging at first, trying to follow conventional wisdom of softer alloys and getting much more leading and worse accuracy than Aardvark's bullets.

Many,many years ago before I started casting my own I shot the Lazer Cast bullets in my Ruger BH in 357 Mag. I never had any issues with them leading my bore and cleanup was very easy with no fuss.

I still have a couple hundred in a container out in the reloading room that I'm just saving for a rainy day. I may just end up one day melting them down and mixing them with some pure lead to make some softer bullets.

I notice you mentioned a marlin in 44magnum. You might want to look at the articles by gene frixall on cast bullets at the following link: its about a lot of stuff.
part of the thing is the rifling in the marlin, what kind. Another is for some unknown to me reason they have the rifle cut to .431, where most jacketed bullets are .429. This isn't an issue unless you are trying to run cast in both the rifle and handgun. My 29 is .429 to run one over for the rifle it's at .432, or three over the revolver. He mentions in the article about not going over about 250grains i think it is for the rifle.
i cast and load for the 47/70 too, and after one time up to the firewall, no more for me of that. It isn't needed, and i keep mine with a 400grain about 1600fps. I haven't had any leading issues.
anyway the link: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44OverWeight.htm

you can keep the cost per box down pretty low on 38special.
It's one of the reasons i started casting years ago. I was getting 158grain wadcutters for practice in 38special from the sheriffs dept for 1.50 a box at the time.
When i left that stopped so i started casting my own.
Followed by a 44magnum superredhawk, that store bought ammo was way too expensive, and that was 25years ago.
I can still load 38special for about 2.50 a box, the 44stuff not much more.

fit is king, if you know what size you need your lead bullets to be see if you can buy them that size.

1 to 2 thousandth larger than your bore dia, should work well.

you just need to slug your gun first to see what you need.

Since we are talking about cast bullets, I bought a bunch of Lazercast, Leadhead, & Rimrock.. When I shoot these in my new model Smith .44's. Always get some leading.. I usually clean at the end of each session, so there has been no huge built up. Just heard about the cleaning method Ron mention with the copper pads.

What I would like to know is some leading going to happen now matter what?? I was told years ago there will be a certain amount of "frost" no matter what one does..

I like my guns clean when I am finished shooting, that is probably out of date too..

I don't think leading is a natural event. Either the composition of alloy wrong, not wide enough size wise, running too hard, lube or something.
typically if your barrell is .429 one would run at .430. as an example.
I think some leading issues are created sometimes by lead being too hard rather than too soft.
One of the reasons for powdercoating it resolves a lot of these issues.
I did read one here sometime recently someone saying you shouldn't get leading below 1200fps. I tend to agree with that if every thing is right. It is necessary to try different combinations.
some years ago, to talk about leading, i gave a grandkid a ruger 10/22. and a brick or so of .22lr. She shot it all without cleaning the gun, and it started to act funny so she brought it to me. I just about couldn't see down the barrel with a light it was so leaded up. Took a bit of work to get all the lead out, but it was taken out.
hopefully she learned from that.
Another thought is where the leading is taking place? At the front, or back at the forcing cone.

Right in front of the forcing cone.. Just a bit, but I don't like it.. Thanks.

all you wanted to know about leading, and location/causes:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

What is the throat diameter of the revolver chambers and of the Marlin? Therein lies the diameter you want to size to (or a half thou under), regardless of what the groove diameter is in those guns. It could be that your throats are pretty close to each other in size which would go a long way toward successful interchange. Sizing to throat diameter and ignoring groove diameter may well cure a lot of your leading too, as well as going with a softer alloy instead of a hard one, believe it or not.

which is a good idea. the following link is on rifle/handgun 44magnum from a few years ago. I thought it informative.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?153929-Why-are-44-rifle-bores-oversize

another interesting writeup on marlin rifles through the years and the need to size on throat diameter.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/microgrove-barrels.htm
kine of interesting to me is i just cast about 300 44 bullets from a lyman 429421 mold. I had a mixture of wheelweight and lead free solder. The mold is nominally what .429? It through to .430. And about 250grains compared to stated 245grains.
I powder coated today which adds about 2thousandths to diameter.
So they would be with no more sizing etc end up about .432.
which i think would be about perfect for my marlin rifle.
I don't think that extra 2thousandth from the paint would cause any issues in the handguns as long as they would chamber. I am tempted to see that before sizing back down to .430, or one over nominal diameter of my handguns of .429

As experienced as you boys are at reloading and shooting, I know all of you know about the Lewis Lead Remover system. When I first started shooting a .357 magnum, I leaded up my barrel until I figured out how to shoot it hot without doing that. I got a Lewis lead Remover and that was back in 1970. I still have a couple of the original brass patches. That system is quick and easy. It works like a charm. For any of you who are experiencing leading issues and you haven't yet figured out how to solve it, you might want to consider a Lewis System until you get it figured out. Or not. Mine is 46 years old and still works good, so it's a good investment.

for what it's worth not much, i had to consult my notebook on reloads after my wife found it for me. Regarding a project with another guy.
anyway powdercoated 310grain lee mold cast bullet at chrony'd d 1300plus fps out of a 44magnum contender ten inch barrel. After shooting the barrel was fresh as a daisy.
being cheap, one of those brasso pot scrubber pads cut into a piece and wrapped around a brush took the place of the lewis system for me.
another interesting thing for me has been the schmidt rubin rifles. The cleaning kits they issued were works of art, but they had tubes of grease in there they used for lubrication, but also to clean the barrels with a mesh metal pad. One of the reasons most k31's have that black crud on the stocks. the mesh pad kind of looks like window screen.

I always carry a little 3 inch barrel, 5 shot 44 special when I am hunting. Well, I carry it anytime I leave my property if you want to know the truth. Last year I was at camp by myself like I am most of the time checking on my feeders and I just walked through the woods instead of riding my 4 wheeler. As I came up on a feeder, I heard hogs and managed to ease in on them from down wind to within about 50 yards of them and killed a lillle boar for camp sausage. If it'll play, here is a video of me with that little 44 special and the hog. You gotta love 44's in any version.

Turn on the sound and set your viewer to full screen size.


Click here: http://vid1020.photobucket.com/albums/af329/BlackPrince789/DragonheadNO22012039.mp4

That hog had swamp mud on him and I got it on my hands when I loaded him on and pulled him off the 4 wheeler and that is what I am trying to rub off of my hands there.

Here is that 44 special. You will immediately notice the large Pachmayr grips. They were not made for that revolver and I had to custon fit them to it. I did that because that little sucker will bite the crap out of you using the standard grips if you load it to kill hogs or bad guys like I do. I try to limit what I shoot with it so that I don't shake it apart with those heavy loads. I had three of these, but I shot one loose and had to send it back for repairs. When it came back, my hunting frens saw them and beat me out of the other two, one of which had a non fluted cylinder. What are frens for anyway? This one is new or like new and I am careful to limit the heavy stuff in it. It shoots exceptionally well.



It goes where I go and the guy grinning on the other side got one of those little 44's from me.

Here is a buck I killed with a 6 1/2 inch barreled Smith model 29 shooting Keith's 250 grain bullet (Lyman 429421) over 22 grains of 2400. You can see how much bigger and heavier the Smith is than the little 44 special. They are both 44's and they both kill deer and hogs, but one get's in the way and the other does not. I am not even aware the little 44 special is there.

Bob, Great photos.. Like that little .44.. Good story as always, and this time with pics.. Thanks..

You can get the same effect with a bit of copper "Chore Boy" scrubbing pad wrapped around a wire bore brush. Or better yet, the "Big 45" metal cleaner; pretty much the same thing but made of a soft stainless.

Then again, I've hardly touched any lead remover since discovering powder coating. Just sayin...

i loaded some 44magnum powder coaed 429421 yesterday, and going to do some for 44special tomorrow. powdercoated same bullet.
I have a 696smith that will appreciate it
pulled out an old brian pearce article from handloader in 2006 and i think i am going to do the skeeter load of 8.5gr of unique pushing that bullet.
I have a 28 that was rebarreled to 44 a skeeter conversion in six inch with tt th, and a trigger shoe, plus an action job.
that 429421 powdercoated is going to be pushed by 8.5gr of unique.
i pulled out an old brian pearce article from 2006, surprising how much wallop you can put in a 44special if the gun will withstand it. Not that it is necessary
i have that skeeter conversion in a very similar holster sitting on my desk rightnow, just like in your picture.

Dang Ron!!! You cut a wide path through the south west. About as close as I ever got to Skelton is his books and sadly, I only have two of them. I have not tried powder coating and probably will not. I have two Lyman sizer/lubbers and lord only knows how many sizing dies and enough lube made up to last a lifetime. What I am shooting is not causing any problems and has not caused me any problems over the last half century. A properly cast, fit, and loaded bullet isn't going to give any problems.

But I do enjoy and thank all of you fellas for showing this old dog the new tricks of powder coating. And like coyotehunter, I really enjoy the photo's!! I didn't know a bullet could actually be good looking until I saw the pictures of yours. At this point in life, I don't want to start new projects. Heck, I'm just hoping I live long enough to finish those I have already started. I burried another friend just yesterday.

Coyotehunter

That little 44 is a Rossi model 720. I am sad to say it is not a Smith, which is the reason I am being very careful with it. I've already shot one of those all loose and had to have it repaired and I don't want to do this one that way. It is just right for most of what I use a 44 to do. I would have never imagined a three inch barrel could make such a BIG DIFFERENCE in shootability over a 2 inch, but it really does. And I would never have imagined a three inch barrel would carry very much easier than a four inch, but it really does. It may not be for everybody, but it's just right for me and what I need. Of course, I'm in the deep south and all we have down here are deer, hogs, and a few black bears, and a properly loaded 44 special will let daylight all the way through those critters. There have been very few times when I have wished that I had the big Smith 29 instead to that little 44 special.

Most of my shooting is with .44 spl. loads, Skeeter's Unique load, or a similar load in a mag. case. Lots of good info. here and great pictures.. Thanks for the show..

Here are two 44 caliber bullet molds with bullets cast in them. Left is Lyman 429421 250 grain Keith and on right is a Saeco 200 grain wad cutter hard cast from pure linotype and water quenched.



Here is what those wad cutters look like up close after sizing and lubing.



Here are the wad cutters loaded frontwards and backwards. The backwards thing comes from old law dogs loading 148 grain hollow base wadcutters backwards creating a huge hollow point for use on mean people. At least, I am told they did that, but I have no first hand knowledge of it of course. It made no difference in the accuracy of those 44 wadcutters loaded front or backwards. They shoot really good either way.

I killed over a dozen beavers with that wad cutter running at 1000 FPS, a half dozen hogs, but only one buck because I only shot one buck with it so far. I normally use the heavier 250 grain bullet for that kind of thing and was surprised to see that little wad cutter kill so well. But all of those shots were 50 yards or less and it probably will not kill much further than that. If you like shooting 44 special loads, that wad cutter is dang good for targets and general plinking and if you load it right, it won't shoot your revolver loose, but don't ask me how I know about that.

That little 44 special Rossi is made on a frame the same size as a Smith K frame. It isn't big enough or strong enough to shoot a lot of heavy 44 loads without damaging the guts inside. In fact, the first one of those I ever saw, I thought it was a K frame Smith 357 mag. Big surprise when I saw the hole in the end of the barrel and I had to have one.

i got some cast bullets from a guy back in your part of the woods for .41magnum. the cool part was they were heeled bullets. reverse them and that is one deep hollowpoint. I have fired them that way out of a handgun and a 41mag rifle.
although i did read somewhere that although kind of neat looking, really don't work all that well.
I like full wad cutters for close distance.
i have a mold for 148 and 160gr .357, and i have shot a gillion of them.
I don't have the mold belongs to another guy but have cast a 170gr wadcutter for 41magnum too.

I figured as much. Most old law dogs have. I cast, load and shoot them by the 2 pound Maxwell House coffee can full. And like you, have probably shot a gadzillion of'em. Still do as a matter-of-fact. These are loaded 148 grain wad cutters and ready to shoot. If you pay attention to sight picture and trigger control and shoot enough of those, you can get to be a fairly good shot. In fact, you can shoot your way into the master class with them.

Bob,

that is a really nice, neat handloading space--i like the shelving, brackets, the neat gray color, etc., it all looks really good--quite meticulous.

it appears to be siding on the walls--if so, did you frame a room onto an inside corner of the outside of the house?

great modification on those grips on the .44 special--it appears to me that you like all of your stuff "just so"--something that's great to see in this day and age....

You nailed it HV. That area was once an outside 10 X 12 porch that had a half wall to the outside and screen above that. My wife and I had a set of bunk beds out there and when our nephews visited us (we had no children ourselves) they loved to sleep out there. One morning we woke up to yelling on the porch and a black bear came up on the porch like they sometimes do, and it looked over the half wall through the screen at the boys and they saw the bear looking in at them. That woke'm up real qiuck and they still talk about that to this day. One of those boys is now a chief petty officer and a navy seal who has been in a lot of action that he won't talk about. He said he thinks that bear scared him more than some of the stuff he has seen as a seal. He was only about 10 or 11 at the time that happened.

But boys don't stay boys long and all too soon, they grew up, so I took that porch in as my loading room and left the cedar siding on the walls. My dad retrired from the Marines and then went into building houses, then comerical construction, and then into heavy construction. I was raised building things and started working on those projects with him when I was 16. But by then he was the construction superintendant, so my age was never an issue. I built the three houses my wife and I have lived in and the one we are in now, (photo below) so building that loading room was no biggie.





I built this house 100 yards off the road on a five acre lot on the side of a mountain and it's hard to get to a spot where I can get a photo of it. There is only one road in and one out and I am on the high ground and can see anything approaching for a long way off. I do not have a missle air defense system . . . yet. I do have my own water and power supply and a years worth of non-parishable foods stored. My property line borders the Chattahoochee National Forest and the southern end of the Appalachian Trail is about 3 miles north of here. I am 60 miles north of Atlanta and I pray that is far enough away. It was when I came here, but that was 29 years ago and I'm begining to see more cars on these mountain roads than I once did. I don't like it and I'm too dam old to move and build another house. So I make bullets, reload, maintain a small vegetable garden, keep up my shooting skills and my fire wood supply. Oh, and converse with you boys who I hope are also getting ready for what is coming.

Bob,

it sounds like you are quite a skilled guy--and energetic too, in order to build 3 homes--a real task. i'm not surprised about your construction background--as the skillsets evident in those neatly constructed shelf brackets (which i assumed you had built), point to someone who likely grew up doing that sort of thing.

quite a story about those boys too--it seems like incidents that happen at a younger age like that leave very strong, lasting impressions.

i've enjoyed your posts--the stories, the nice rigs, and the photos. without a doubt, you are a great addition and asset to the campfire.

btw, i remember the old "wadcutter reversal" loading--first learned about it some 30+ years ago--though i've never tried it during all of those years...

Well as Paul Harvey used to say, and now for for the rest of the story. Go down to the knife and blade forum below and look at the thread "What was the first knife you made or tried to make." I posted that thread about a couple of knives I made because I tried my hand at making a few over the years.

Here is one of them:






How I made it is documented in the thread on the knife and blade forum. Old goats need something to keep them busy or we get into trouble. Below is one I made but have not shown to the boys on the knife and blade forum. It is my favorite.





I also did all the leather work design and construction on the knife sheaths.

Nice house and beautiful knives!! Great stuff as always!!

Mr Wills,

How do you keep your loading bench so danged clean!?!?

PS All you guys rock with the sharing of the knowledge and skills.

Rabbitdog, you came to the right place. I have used at least four thousand Lasercast with no real problems. Then I started casting and though I do not make good bullets yet I am having too much fun. Come back and come often.

what got me onto a 696smith
years ago a deputy friend got in a shootout with a misunderstood individual with the shots coming at him in the drivers seat of the patrol car. Like everyone he was packing a model 19smith. He emptied the gun at the guy and it ended well as my friend was not hurt. About a week later i ran into him in a store buying a charter arms bulldog five shot 44special.
I never forgot that, and when the chance came to buy a 696, i took it. I am actually the third owner, the first owner was a guy that writes for the gun rags. Second guy had an action job done on it. there isn't going to be a fourth guy.
In one of pearce's old articles on the 44special he had three separate load ranges for that round. the 696 was capable of taking more than the standard factory specs.
it is flat surprising what you can push one to if you had a mind too. I have no intent of that, but a 250grainer you can get in the 950fps range pretty easily. And i am happy with that.
I also worked up some snake loads with no 12 shot from a venturino article, and like to carry it dove hunting.

You are DA MAN Ron!!! I looked for a 696 Smith for a couple of years before giving up on finding one and bought those three Rossi's. If I ever come across one of those 696 Smith's locally, it will come home with me. But I want the 696, not the 696-1 and for sure not the 696-2. Meanwhile, the 44 special Rossi is my constant companion and I'll just have to learn to live with the indignity of it not being a Smith.

mine is a no dash, i was talking to a friend of mine in his gunshop yesterday, blowing smoke with a few others. He said he had one in the safe, but price i think is gonna be 950 to 1000 bucks. Kind of ouch.
i got mine some years back from a guy who is/was kind of a gun hustler.
but not as much aware as he thought/thinks. It was owned prior to him by another guy who i know, had an action job done on it. first owner was a pretty well known gun writer.
I think i paid 300bucks for it, and i am sure he had plenty of boot in it. He sold it to get a 296 as if that made any sense.

those knives by the way are pretty sweet. probably my first addiction going back to childhood. Part of it was my dad could make a good knife, had a forge that kind of thing. I, on the other hand, never could do it. But spent a lot of hours researching metals, knives made around the world that kind of thing.
just like guns, almost nobody understands how much thought and skill goes into a good knife.
When i first saw yours i was thinking of a little three inch skinning knife i have made out a sawblade. works good. The only problem i ever had was in colorado where using it the fat on the deer would congeal on that cold blade. usually doesn't happen in arizona.

along that line, knives, i have one made by my dad out of a sawmill piece of steel. It's so friggin hard i can't get an edge on it, but that's normal for me, like i said no skill.
i had the same knife that i finished at the same time. an exwife when she took off in 1969 took that knife with her out of spite. few years ago i ran across her on facebook with that knife still on my mind, course she didn't know anything about it.

You said a mouth full of truth there. I can't tell you how many guys have come to camp with a gut hook knife and ended up cussing it before he got his game skinned. The gut hooks on their knives keep coming out of the cut and will not stay hooked nor will it cut very well even though it is sharp. Why?

It's simple: the gut hook is too small, is built at the wrong angle to the blade for cutting, and with insufficient hook pilot or lead. But it is in proportion to the knife and it looks good. I made the gut hook on my knife first and then let the rest of the knife go where it needed to and didn't give a fig about how it looks. It WORKS REALLY GOOD which is what the whole exercise ought to be about. But it's amazing how many people buy a knife for how it looks rather than how it works. If you want to see many examples of that, just read the blade and knife forum below. I don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading some of that. To each his own I guess, but I can't help recall Ronald Reagan saying so much of what some people know is just not true!!!

The first knives with that hook in the back of the blade were not sharp. It was there to use to place or remove pots with bails on them on and off the camp fire. They were intended to be pot hooks and that's all. Then some jazzbo sharpened one and then everybody did. But they didn't change anything else. A hook that works great for pots does not work for skinning. It is at the wrong angle. It is not long enough to stay hooked. It is not big enough to change the angle or the hook design. But knife makers have always made them that way, so guess what?? They don't work very well because they were never designed to do what they are trying to do.

But if you make the hook bigger and increase the angle and the lead on the hook, it makes the knife look unbalanced and out of porportion and ugly, and nobody wants an ugly knife except me because form follows function far as I am concerned. So they make good looking, balanced, properly porportioned blades that don't work very well. Sounds like politicians and I don't want anything designed or made by politicians because it usually doesn't work very well.