Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Sport hunting with no mounts?

Smokepole. If it would make you feel better, I can be less diplomatic this go around? I'm not trying to convince anyone that my opinion is correct, it is simply my opinion.

If you want me to denigrate your contrary opinion, I can do that as well. All your finding my last quotes on this does is point out I'm consistent and resolute in my morals. Is that the MO of a troll as I've been accused of here in the past?

Think this through; you decide upon a trip to Africa, you pack, you fret over what you've packed. As we all do, you un-pack and repack numerous times. You finally make it there. you do game drives, you take photographs, you immerse yourself into an interesting foreign culture. You buy a few trinkets to take home and its over.

Or;

You do exactly the same process as above but you kill a few plains game animals.

What is the only difference in the process? The killing.

Even those of you that wish to bash me probably aren't questioning my own desire to hunt and or kill. I simply feel a moral obligation to my quarry to value their life enough to treat them differently than say a nuisance prairie dog town.

My belief is that internet forums should make us all engage in a process of introspective contemplation. Myself, I'm malleable enough to be convinced there are other opinions, some my be right and if I think those through, I may come out with a different opinion. Regardless, I've used my intellect, and not a mob mentality to formulate my stance.

My father was an argumentative ridged man. He drove away his loved ones with his caustic and unbending ways. When my son was born, I made him a promise to always listen and perhaps even learn from another point of view. That said, there are moral positions that I won't change, this is one of those.

Are you the type that likes to reminisce? Do you get enjoyment out of a safari long after it's over? Do you like conversation about Africa, hunting, and travel?

Mounts can bring you all of these. Each time you look at the trophy on the wall, it takes you back to that day and time, and the people you were with. Friends that come over will ask about and admire the mounts, giving you the chance to retell the experience.

The word "souvenir" comes from French for "remember" or "a memory". Trophies are souvenirs in the truest sense.

There comes a point when your walls are full and your sense of accomplishment is sufficient that you lose interest in adding to the collection. I'm getting there. I'd mount another leopard, sable, or bushbuck. I'm not bring back any more buffalo. I have a herd now. I'd do a bear rug. I'll bring home tusks if I ever get to do elephant again.

Ones I don't mount unfortunately won't be honored and remembered as much as the others, but time and lack of wall space dictates it.

It's an open forum, say what you will and I'll do the same. But I do appreciate it when people say what they mean, instead of pussyfooting around.




Now we're getting somewhere; have at it.





Oh, I've thought it through. Many times. When you say things like the above, that not getting a head mounted is the same as shooting prairie dogs, it proves you haven't thought it through.

And when you say that not getting a head mounted is giving fuel to the anti's, that makes it abundantly clear that you haven't spoken with any. "Trophy Hunting" is in their minds the most abhorrent form of hunting. Not that I put a lot of stock in what anti's say; I know I won't change their minds so I focus on the non-hunters, the people in the middle who are the majority and whose opinions count.

They're not big on trophy hunting either, but they tend to respect killing an animal so that you can eat it; they get that.

Finally I'll say that there are just about as many reasons people hunt as there are hunters. Everyone has a little different motivation.

To label everyone who chooses not to have a head mounted as "killers not hunters," and saying they devalue hunting because they don't have the same motivations that you do is the ultimate form of arrogance.

By the way, check this out, it's in a crate headed my way as we speak:

Smokepole,

Nice mature ram. Where from? I shot mine in the Brooks range about 4 years ago. Great hunt, all backpack stuff. Killed it on day 2 of 10. Had a griz tag as well. The only griz we saw came in and took the remaining meat we had hauled with us for several days. We hunted the Kongacut (sp) River. Ate fresh Char every day.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for "traditional shoulder mounts" my definition would be skulls, horns or backskins. Just something to show that you placed more value on the life of said beast than to simply, fire and forget.

I hunted the Kilwa concession in Tanzania in October. I had a 21 day license. On it there were three buffalo, a huge plethora of PG, to include two Kongoni. I finally killed a really nice ram. The PH said, we likely won't see one this large. I chose to not shoot the second one, not really seeing the point, other than just sending 260 grains of accubond down range. I did kill three buffalo, all three will be mounted, in some degree. One, my largest buffalo to date will be a "bookend set" pedestal mount with a 44 I killed in Zambia. The other two will be Euro's.

Point being, as much as I love hunting buffalo, I just couldn't get myself to kill one without using some part of it at home.

I will emphatically agree the dipping/shipping game is a scam and prohibitive at times. BUT…we all know those cost are high going in. I just mentally pencil them in the the cost of hunting, the total cost.

Chugach Range. Ninth day of a 12-day trip, which was the last day I could hunt since it was a three-day walk out.

Walls full of mounts are fine if you're planning to stay where you're at. They're a b!tch to move! I've moved four times in the last six years and I ain't staying here. My next move will take me across the Mississip and may come within a year or two. Maybe sooner. My Moose mounts made it through a couple moves and then I sold them. The only thing better than getting those mounts done was selling the damn things. I'm too nomadic to want burdened with anything heavier than a deer mount anymore.

And beings how put out animals seem to get over dying I don't imagine one would feel "honored" knowing it's head was going on some guys wall until he dies and it hits the garage sale. I think the OP is trying to assuage some personal guilt or something thinking he is "doing right" by the animal.

hatari,

I guess I'm in your camp- The mounts I have, from trips all over the world and here in NA, are a constant reminder of happy times, and successful hunts, often enjoyed with friends and my wife. My friends and family love coming over to our house, and to admire some great taxidermy, often many times over. If there ever was a conversation starter among hunters, a trophy collection is it!

A lot of the stuff in my house is comprised of skulls, european mounts, and rugs. Photo albums of hunting trips are to be found on the coffee and end tables. In short, I thoroughly enjoy living those experiences again and again. For me, hunting is more than just killing stuff- just shooting animals isn't much more rewarding than a trip to the grocery store. I like to know that the meat is utilized by myself, my family, or in the case of places like Africa, local residents. And, not every animal ends up on a wall, far from it. Most of my hunting nowdays is here in Colorado, and mostly for meat- it's easier to get tags for cow elk and whitetail deer than anything else, and I can hunt every year.

Someday, I will have to deal with the reality of having to dispose of my collection. My wife and I have talked about it, and I have researched it enough to know there are sources out there for selling mounts to. Who knows, a new Cabelas store may open in my neighborhood someday, and they might want to buy an entire collection for their store!

For me the issue is a practical one, not a moral or ethical one.

After three safaris my man cave walls (and floors) are full and I will be downsizing my residence in a few years.

If I go to Africa again, it will be pictures only, unless I happen to take a most exceptional trophy. One exception would be a leopard. Hides take up little space.

If I go again I might be interested in a non-exportable elephant or a cull hunt.

Excellent post.

I think when you cleanly, by way of fair chase, dispatch an animal and then DON'T just let it lay there and rot, you've fulfilled any moral responsibility you have toward the animal. I've never been to Africa; but, it is my understanding the animals are all put to good use by the locals once killed by a hunter. I don't think anybody in this thread is advocating the random killing, taking photos and then leaving the animal for the vultures and hyenas. If that were the case, then your moral responsibility comment would be appropriate.

In addressing the point presented by the OP, the method of trophies being the photos and the memories as opposed to the costs associated with the transport and preservation of the actual animals, it's the only way I (and many others) will ever be able to do an African safari.

In the current political and social environment it is becoming more and more difficult to bring trophies to the US. Most airlines now ban transport of the big five or worse, an all out ban of all trophies. The Federal government now bans elephant trophies from most countries and lions from all countries. And New Jersey has passed legislation (pending the governor's signature) to ban certain trophies from entering the state.

I truly believe in conservation though hunting and believe in supporting those who practice good conservation practices. The main money makers for the guys in Zimbabwe and Mozambique are lion and elephant. If we all quit hunting lion and elephant I believe at will have a negative effect on operators ability to continue conservation efforts. From that stand point alone I would hunt elephant in Mozambique on a true fly camp, tracking, in the wilds of Africa hunt and be willing to leave the ivory with the operator. I would also hunt lion in Zimbabwe and leave the skull and tanned hide with the operator. The experience of making these types of hunts and supporting conservation efforts with good operators outweigh my need and want to take home trophies.

That being said every head of plains game I have shot is at my house or at the taxidermist. While I am not a big taxidermy guy I feel no need to shoot (as an example) another 55" kudu for the sake of shooting it and leave it behind. If a 60" kudu would be hunted I would shoot it and mount it.

Some of my best and hardest hunts have been tuskless elephant. I think in general it is accepted that no trophies are exportable from these hunts. And since it is illegal there is no way I would bring an elephant hair bracelet home, even though I do have several from giraffe hair I bought at the curio shop.

On to buffalo. I have several mounted in either shoulder or skull. One is a 49" buffalo. It is unlikely I will ever kill a larger buffalo. I have hunted non trophy on several occasion where we looked for a narrow bull with no drop in its horns. Those have been great hunts with no trophies taken home. I do regret not taking a trophy bull home. I killed it an Thanksgiving Day in the Della Valley in the Omay. Anybody who has hunted the Omay can imagine how bad the conditions are in November. We walked in from Siakobva, crossed a small mountain, and enjoyed one of the most difficult hunts I have ever been on. I left that trophy behind and to this day I regret it. It was a good buffalo but the memory of that hunt will always be with me. I wish the skull was in my office now.

Should we mount every animal we shoot? In some ways it is not practical. Should we hunt every animal ethically in a manner that supports conservation? Absolutely. Remember we are under a microscope in the public eye. Everything we do as individuals reflects on the hunting community as a whole.

Steve, you need to tackle a tough subject such as hero photos on the internet.

Hey Mike,

Articulate and informative, as usual with your posts. You've known me on various hunting forums for years. We are in agreement as to the sound conservation benefits of the hunting dollars generated from Elephant, Lion hunting.

I too agree if we stop hunting for these iconic species, they will, at some time, cease to exist, anywhere but national parks as is the case in Kenya. That said, I would never go shoot a trophy Elephant or Lion and not bring home the components required to mount them both. I do however completely understand your point and can't really disagree with you on the merits.

But, this discussion isn't and hasn't been about conservation. Its about greed and lack of respect for wild things. To only care about coming back sooner to pull the trigger more, simply tells me many of my fellow sportsman only care to kill things, to simply take their picture. You may disagree with my statements but if you re-read it, it is exactly what you are doing. Simple justification is the argument, not the process.

You point about the hero shots was to be the follow up. But since you brought it up, here goes.

Long ago, prior the dentist or the circumstances surrounding him, I had a mantra. For those familiar with the Brad Pitt movie, "Fight Club," there was a rule. "Don't talk about fight club." Simple enough.

If an activity is so controversial, or under a magnifying glass as Mike states, why on earth would we as sportsman, supply a cohesive opposition any ammunition in the form on "Hero shots" here or on AR, FB or any other social media? If you look at the sites of the opposition, they have copied trophy photos that we have provided them to raise awareness and money to stop our sport.

The international hunting community is far to small to make any difference as far as public opinion goes. Even American recreational, deer hunters, by and large don't necessarily agree with hunting Lions or Elephants.

Convince our elected representatives to agree with us?

Politicians for the most part only care about one thing, re-election. There are roughly 10,000 American sport hunters that travel to Africa annually to hunt. Of those there are, in total 1800-2000 that travel for either Lion-Elephant of both. (numbers now are far less). If you take that number and do a little math, do you think any elected politician is going to take the side of maybe 50 hunters? Their demographic, the great un-educated and un-informed masses of brainwashed, politically correct followers will vote them out of office, first chance.

Therefore, the only way, as I see it to continue to sport hunt internationally, is to fly under the radar. I've personal posted photos, but have long since sanitized them removed anything that may be used against the hunting demographic, my brothers.

There are those of you that would marginalize or diminish my personal opinion about this. Those that do, only silence my principles as I have no voice, when my silence is the goal.

I've been castigated on AR and FB for these thoughts. Some, tell me I've retreated. I have not, I simply feel that those that need to pose behind a trophy and post pictures all over the internet are simply doing so to feed their ego's. My skin is sufficiently thick to at least make an effort to perhaps change just one mind here. If I can accomplish that, mission accomplished.

I don't think ANYONE will argue that the Dentist and Cecil was the impetus as to the current attacks on hunting, even the New Jersey thing. Can anyone argue the point that had that picture, NOT been posted and the enlist simply went about his business, the landscape would be far different than it is now?

So, should our goal be to be right, or to continue hunting?

Dr. Palmer inadvertently caused many problems. All the poor guy did was share a photo. The crime in all is what the crazy anti-s are allowed to get away with.

After that photo was posted, the antis hacked the photo library of my good friend who is an outfitter and PH in RSA. Found a folder labeled "Hatari" family safari, from 2011. Looked me up on the Google, found phone numbers, and I had about 2 weeks worth of harassment.

Yes, the world has changed.

Personally, I like seeing photos of hunters with their kills. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if we stop posting those because we're afraid of what the anti's will say, they've won.

Can you please point to one Social Media campaign that sportsman have won?

I see nothing but a long list of losses, USFWS regulations, countries closing certain species or closing all together.

The public at large will never be convinced of hunting through conservation, regardless the science. If you think putting up more pictures is the way forward, carry on. You and those like you have taken my choice from me.

As I stated prior, do you want to be right or do you want to continue hunting? Simple choice actually. I even think these forums should be pay sites. The anti movement has one weakness, they're cheap. They would never spend their own money for published magazines or books. If they can't "right click save" they won't pursue it. The monies could be further put back into conservation projects. A self fulfilling prophecy.

If you think that's what I said, you should improve your reading comprehension.

I said we shouldn't be afraid to.

Come on Smokepole, That was clearly (I thought) meant to read as "you" the collective.

I understood your comment. I'm not afraid to post pictures either, I just know better.

I can look back at my African hunting and feel pretty comfortable in knowing I did pretty much all I wanted to do. With Ethiopia being the exception. When I did Tanzania in October, I said to myself, several times, this is getting ridiculously complex. The gun permitting, the airlines gun policies, dealing with curt and rude TSA and Immigration officers.

About 8 years ago, I discovered fishing in South America. It gives me all the adventure I need, The costs, I can do 4-5 trips to Brazil, Guyana or Suriname for the price of a single Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. There is no taxidermy, no trophy fees, no dipping and shipping. The weather is nice all the time. three hours time difference from Arizona (no jet lag) .

I also appreciate the fact that my days are mine. I have an Indian boat driver, who just goes where I ask him to go. It's all on me. My success or failure is mine an mine alone.

Point being, many of us, myself included consider ourselves sportsman first, hunter or fisherman it doesn't matter to me, I'm an outdoorsman.

I never thought there would come a time in my lifetime that I would see the sunset of hunting in Africa. As Mike70560 states, without the iconic species being hunted, the rest don't stand a chance in wild Africa. There will likely always be game farms for us to hunt if thats what we desire.

I have zero problem with hero shots and I put them on FB.

Not sure what all that has to do with posting photos, but if you don't want to, then don't.

But don't try to tell me that I can't.