Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Sport hunting with no mounts?

Rather than hijack somebodies thread, I figured I'd start this as its own thread.

I would like to know this forums feelings about going to Africa, whacking a few animals and leaving everything behind.

Further, using those savings of not dipping, shipping, mounting everything to go back sooner?

Steve

It makes perfect sense, but is hard for most people to do at first. Once you've gone a few times its practically inevitable.

There are more than a few people who feel the same way as you on that subject. If you're happy with just the memories and photos/video of the hunt (and many people are), leaving all of your actual trophies in Africa is a good way to save a lot of money, time, and hassle.

I did it that way myself. I'd rather shoot more animals than put the money into mounts. I took pictures, and measured everything. That was good enough for me. You can buy just about anything already mounted if you really have to have something for the wall. I'd rather save the money from having mounts done and take anther trip, buy another rifle, etc. I don't eve. Have that much wall space. I shot a zebra, and bought a zebra rug on ebay. It looks just the zebra I shot, and I didn't have to wait a year to get it. I did have to convince my PH that I was really happy with the stuff I shot...I didn't want him to think I was disappointed with the heads. I just told him I wasn't that into mounts.

It's been pictures only for me for quite some time. I've even left two Cape Buffalo in Africa. I have plenty of taxidermy in my house and no room for more. That plus the cost of shipping and taxidermy have convinced me to just bring home the photos. My last few hunts have been cull hunts for non trophy male animals. Got to shoot quite a few head of plains game. The hunt for a 47inch Kudu was just as much fun as the one for the 54 incher hanging on my wall. Same thing for 20 inch Impala versus the 24 inch version.

You'll save a bundle and go on more trips if you forgo the mounts.

I always dreamed of an Elephant hunt but the prices are simply to high for a trophy hunt. I have however managed to shoot 3 non exportable non trophy bulls. All the fun of a trophy hunt for far less $$.

I agree, but most people have to get it out of their system. I am bringing back my Botswana stuff because my wife killed a waterbuck and I got my first eland but I am done. It is just too damn expensive. I don't regret my taxidermy but heed my advice...take pics and go on more hunts.

I've been fortunate enough to go on two African safaris, a trip to New Zealand and one to Spain.

I have had 20 mounts done and shipped home. I really enjoy sitting in my man cave and looking at the heads, but as I age and think about downsizing, I can not help but to think, what am I going to do with this stuff?

Pictures for me from now on!

donsm70

I've only been once, and suspected that, that might be the only trip, so I brought back some animals. They are at the taxidermist and I'd love to have them all shoulder mounted (except the zebra) but I'm thinking I'll save some money if I just to the European thing. Well, maybe next time. Still don't know if I'll get a chance to go again, and I keep getting older. Do some of you just do the European mounts to save the money. Sounds like most of you had trophies from the first couple of hunts before you settled for pictures.

Actually, I'm in the other camp. Personally, I feel some kind of a moral responsibility to the animal itself. I can't help but feel by shooting the stuff and leaving it, we have somehow reduced the value of these animals lives to a mere few megapixels on a camera card.

I've been in a "spirited debate" on this several times, with several people. Typically, I'm in the minority on this one, and I'm ok with others doing things their way.

Steve

If you are one of those guys (like the OP) whose been to Africa countless times, I could see some justification, but for us mere mortals with just two or three trips under our belts and maybe one or two more, no way.

Good morning Jorge,

I really don't see it as a function of "times over" I simply feel that the taxidermy itself is part of the process of Safari. In my mind, the Safari experience isn't complete until that day the taxidermist comes over, I get out the stud finder and hang them in their final resting place.

I harbor no animosity or ill will to those that feel differently. This is just always a very interesting conversation.

After I got some trophy gathering out of my system my last two safaris were culling.Non-trophy animals were culled ( broken horns etc.) so I still got some hunting/shooting in, and didn't have to go through the dipping, packing, shipping, taxidermy sequence of expenses.

IIRC you've been in a spirited debate on this subject on this very forum....?

Anwyay, I've been over a few times and chose to bring back a couple of euros and zebra rugs, and one big kudu bull. It's been pictures otherwise, and likely will be from here on out. As you're well aware, nothing goes to wasted in Africa, so no guilty conscience about that either. I find the cost to dip/pack/ship/clear US customs/ship to taxi/and taxidermy akin to highway robbery. The money saved by not doing these things again will pay for other trips over.

You're correct, it was here. Again, to be clear, I don't harbor any negative feelings towards anyone who does the opposite. These are my feelings, and mine alone.

As far as mounts, I have accumulated a fair amount. Even today, I won't kill anything without the intent to mount it. That practice has made me one, more selective and not just shoot the place up for the sake of shooting a bunch of stuff.

So why are you back to rehash the same thing again? Just curious. Last time you presented your feelings on the subject you tried to make everyone feel guilty for not feeling the way you do.

Once again, what are you trying to accomplish this time?

Unless you have your own museum or equivilent, eventually everyone runs out of wall space. At that point you get to decide if you are going to move, build on or otherwise let your taxidermy run your life. A couple of friends with homes planned around their taxidermy work have had an abrubt change of heart and claim that if they had it to do over again they wont have kept anything.

Leaving trophies is a mental hurdle. On some level people seek to turn a "profit" on hunting. A true meat hunter can't comprehend how someone can leave meat, even after it is explained that it gets used. A trophy hunter can't understand why everyone doesn't have scraps of hide and bone scattered around his cave. Still others have realized that they were just hunting for the experience and memories all along and don't need anything.

Ever ask a PH how many heads are hanging in his own home? Most have a few, but really just a tiny percentage of what they have taken in their life. Its interesting to hear the excuses, err "thought out reasons" why they don't keep everything they've ever shot, because its the same list reasons given by clients that are leaving or thinking about leaving theirs.

I've noticed that everyone involved in the trophy care and shipping biz believes that they have you over a barrel. Permits appear out of nowhere, shipping rates are whatever they want them to be, and the experience is somewhat like a hostage recovery. (Send the money or you'll never see the kud-alo again. Nice antel-phant, be a shame if something happened to it.)Then some are lost or ruined anyway.

Theres a liberating feeling in knowing that when you leave that you have spent the last nickel on that hunt.

JGRaider,

Ah, yes, as soon as I saw who started this thread I got an overwhelming sense of deja vu. Of course, the Campfire in general can provide that on any given day.

But when somebody basically posts exactly the same thing as they did once before, in order to re-recite their discerning tastes and ethics (and how many mounts they can cram inside their museum) it's not a question like ".280 vs. .280 Ackley Improved," but a mission statement.

Right you are, sir!

I'm back to receive my annual beating over this? heck I don't know. I just saw someone in another thread state they were going to just take pictures. I chose not to hijack their thread.

And as far as Mule Deer goes. He obviously has an issue with me, fine. I don't (and won't) ever see an internet forum as a place to just agree with someone for the sake of popularity. If my views are contrary to the norm, isn't that what makes a forum an interesting place?

I read his stuff, some I find fascinating, other stuff not so much. I don't just discount his writing accomplishments because I don't agree with one piece he's written. The overall "body of his works" clearly speak to his experience.

If we all just nodded in agreement, What interest does that serve?

My feeling about this forum is that there are a few superstars, all forums have em. If running off contributors, simply because they have a wide delta of opinions is the goal, that's ok as well. It makes for a dull forum if we all have to agree in order to run with the herd.

I'll say it again, I'm fine with others doing the opposite.

I think you enjoy being a PITA. I'm out.......

A pain in the arse, simply because we don't agree. Noted.

You have some real gems in there Chipper:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/9669989/Searchpage/1/Main/671817/Words/Chipolopolo/Search/true/Re:_Hunting_for_the_experience#Post9669989

I've taken some nice North Americian game.
Alaska Moose, Idaho Elk, bear and deer.
Also, countless waterfowl and upland birds.
I haven't ever felt the need to mount any.
I have kept alot of horns.
Never hung any. Just not my thing.
I have eaten well, though.
I do have a ton of photos that line the walls of my gun room.
I plan to continue the same next year on my first safari.....


P.S. If I harvest a big kudu I might ship the skull.

I've slowed down a bit on the taxidermy for a couple reasons:

My house is pretty much full, my office is full, my wife isn't a big fan, I have two daughters who, while they like to hunt, have no interest in keeping my taxidermy when I'm gone.

I enjoy the trophies immensely but it's getting tough to justify paying thousands of dollars for taxidermy that nobody will want in the future.

That being said, I have a crate of trophies from Cameroon coming soon and I'll mount a Lord Derby Eland, hartebeest, Red River hog and a roan but not sure what the hell I'm going to do with it.

I guess I'm starting to consider the big picture and I'm starting to move in a different direction as far as taxidermy.

It's not going to slow down my hunting though!

I've been managing this business for almost 25 years now. In the early years 100% of hunters took 100% of the trophy parts home plus flat skins and curios.

Over the last 10 years that has dropped considerably. Somewhere along the line the cost of a PG safari on your wall at home exceeded the cost of the trip itself. Today about 1 in 3 bring everything home. 1in 3 bring nothing home and the remainder bring home selected items. Actually in some seasons for us now over 1/2 the people bring home nothing.

I have multiple hunters come many times and bring nothing back. Saying I'm a hunter not a collector. " I can hunt much more often not spending the money on taxidermy."

If you really want to get depressed over your mounts go to an auction for taxidermy. I attended an estate sale last weekend which featured taxidermy and guns. The guns brought good prices but the prices for the taxidermy were very low. Large 8 and 10 point Whitetail deer mounts in excellent condition were selling in the $75-$100 range. Two large Kudu mounts with 55 inch plus horns sold for $350 each.

Hi JJ.

In all honesty, would you take a fire and forget client to "that last place we saw that 58" kudu?"

Or would you rather a client who is taking stuff home get the exceptional trophies?

Interesting topic.

If one doesn't want to take a trophy home then why not just go on a photo safari or at the very least take home horns and skull caps and do horn mounts? Cabela's sells antler mount kits for a song that are do it yourself and easy to assemble. Why the need to kill an animal and just leave it? I know some will say nothing goes to waste in Africa if you leave it but that seems to me to be nothing more than rationalization of disrespectful behavior and poor sporting ethics. I know guys who refuse to kill game animals they can't take home and put in the freezer, a view which I may find a bit extreme but can certainly respect, killing animals just for a photograph, not so much.

Hanging heads on your wall doesn't make you a better person. It doesn't make you a worse person either. Its just a choice in momentos, or a choice in decorating at best. Should every hunter quit hunting when his walls are full? Should only trophy quality animals worth mounting be taken? Is the hunting experience solely judged on inches of bone? When viewing hunting as a whole only a tiny fraction of animals taken are ever mounted, or even had the slightest chance of being considered for mounting.

I get an overwhelming sense of deja vu every time I read one of your snide responses.

I think this quote sums up your question:


Death is essential because without it there is no authentic hunting… The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than the sign of reality for the whole hunting process. To sum up, one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted.

At least, anyhow, for me.

It makes perfect sense and I wish I was more pragmatic. As a compromise I also like the skins and skull mounts. When the wife starts going "you have to get that one shoulder mounted" it gets tougher. Now I am out of space. On a few I am glad I got them mounted on a few I wish I had saved the money. Maybe if it is OMG you may want to think about a mount and if it is just representative of the species not.

This highlighted portion or your response is really my entire point. The killing in my view, isn't the end of the process. I feel it's my responsibility to see the process through in its entirety. Skipping big portions, simply to return to kill more stuff somehow seems cavalier.

My responsibility is to find the best trophy possible as all my hunters from this site will attest to. I have no responsibility or concern of what they do with the trophy parts after they own them.

Should they donate them to the camp or take them home is not relevant! I would not try to influence or try to push my opinion on anyone with the success in life that allowed them to achieve this hunt. I don't deal with idiots, uneducated folks or the financially limited folks frequently. Most have achieved some level of upper middle class status with a history of good life decisions. I'm in no position to second guess these people.

At this point they understand the financial element of the process to get that trophy on the wall 12,000 miles away. I'm highly interested in cooling all edible portions of the carcass quickly and properly. As well as proper preperation of the hide and horns should the hunter choose to keep them.

At this point, the decision is made by the owner of the trophy, and that is the hunter.

I would be more inclined to want the hide than the head.

I don't think mounting trophies has to be a part of the process. A big part of the process is eating some of my kills. It is primal and as important to me as the stalk.

Good post. That's how I see it as well.

+1 again.

I don't like to shoot anything without utilizing something of it. Just me. In fact I can't really be brought to do that.

And I wouldn't be the one to travel that far and spend that kind of money to do it.

Especially when there is SO much in the US to experience first.

That said, there isn't a thing in the world wrong with pictures. Though I think I'd have to have at least a few skulls and or a few just tanned hides. I couldn't fathom shooting a buff and not bringing the skull back. But then if you've shot a lot of them, I get it, kind of like a hog here for me.

At the point of not bringing though, i'd be like ingwe.... I'd be shooting something to help the herd, culls and numbers, and leave the trophies for others.

Example I probably, at 51, shot my last whitetail buck trophy last fall. I won't find a larger one, where we hunt, and as such I'll shoot culls and does and I"m good with that, because it helps the herd and they eat really well.

I'd have a problem not being able to bring meat back from Africa personally. Guess I'm just weird that way. At least bring some back.

But in the end, its a personal question. Do whats legal always. The rest is up to you.

JJ gives some good info there. I would not have bet on folks going that far and spending that much money and time to bring nothing back.

It's like deja vu all over again. From a past thread:



From a different thread:



I don't know how anyone can honestly say "I have no animosity towards people who don't feel the way I do," while having the opinions stated above.

Smokepole. If it would make you feel better, I can be less diplomatic this go around? I'm not trying to convince anyone that my opinion is correct, it is simply my opinion.

If you want me to denigrate your contrary opinion, I can do that as well. All your finding my last quotes on this does is point out I'm consistent and resolute in my morals. Is that the MO of a troll as I've been accused of here in the past?

Think this through; you decide upon a trip to Africa, you pack, you fret over what you've packed. As we all do, you un-pack and repack numerous times. You finally make it there. you do game drives, you take photographs, you immerse yourself into an interesting foreign culture. You buy a few trinkets to take home and its over.

Or;

You do exactly the same process as above but you kill a few plains game animals.

What is the only difference in the process? The killing.

Even those of you that wish to bash me probably aren't questioning my own desire to hunt and or kill. I simply feel a moral obligation to my quarry to value their life enough to treat them differently than say a nuisance prairie dog town.

My belief is that internet forums should make us all engage in a process of introspective contemplation. Myself, I'm malleable enough to be convinced there are other opinions, some my be right and if I think those through, I may come out with a different opinion. Regardless, I've used my intellect, and not a mob mentality to formulate my stance.

My father was an argumentative ridged man. He drove away his loved ones with his caustic and unbending ways. When my son was born, I made him a promise to always listen and perhaps even learn from another point of view. That said, there are moral positions that I won't change, this is one of those.

Are you the type that likes to reminisce? Do you get enjoyment out of a safari long after it's over? Do you like conversation about Africa, hunting, and travel?

Mounts can bring you all of these. Each time you look at the trophy on the wall, it takes you back to that day and time, and the people you were with. Friends that come over will ask about and admire the mounts, giving you the chance to retell the experience.

The word "souvenir" comes from French for "remember" or "a memory". Trophies are souvenirs in the truest sense.

There comes a point when your walls are full and your sense of accomplishment is sufficient that you lose interest in adding to the collection. I'm getting there. I'd mount another leopard, sable, or bushbuck. I'm not bring back any more buffalo. I have a herd now. I'd do a bear rug. I'll bring home tusks if I ever get to do elephant again.

Ones I don't mount unfortunately won't be honored and remembered as much as the others, but time and lack of wall space dictates it.

It's an open forum, say what you will and I'll do the same. But I do appreciate it when people say what they mean, instead of pussyfooting around.




Now we're getting somewhere; have at it.





Oh, I've thought it through. Many times. When you say things like the above, that not getting a head mounted is the same as shooting prairie dogs, it proves you haven't thought it through.

And when you say that not getting a head mounted is giving fuel to the anti's, that makes it abundantly clear that you haven't spoken with any. "Trophy Hunting" is in their minds the most abhorrent form of hunting. Not that I put a lot of stock in what anti's say; I know I won't change their minds so I focus on the non-hunters, the people in the middle who are the majority and whose opinions count.

They're not big on trophy hunting either, but they tend to respect killing an animal so that you can eat it; they get that.

Finally I'll say that there are just about as many reasons people hunt as there are hunters. Everyone has a little different motivation.

To label everyone who chooses not to have a head mounted as "killers not hunters," and saying they devalue hunting because they don't have the same motivations that you do is the ultimate form of arrogance.

By the way, check this out, it's in a crate headed my way as we speak:

Smokepole,

Nice mature ram. Where from? I shot mine in the Brooks range about 4 years ago. Great hunt, all backpack stuff. Killed it on day 2 of 10. Had a griz tag as well. The only griz we saw came in and took the remaining meat we had hauled with us for several days. We hunted the Kongacut (sp) River. Ate fresh Char every day.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for "traditional shoulder mounts" my definition would be skulls, horns or backskins. Just something to show that you placed more value on the life of said beast than to simply, fire and forget.

I hunted the Kilwa concession in Tanzania in October. I had a 21 day license. On it there were three buffalo, a huge plethora of PG, to include two Kongoni. I finally killed a really nice ram. The PH said, we likely won't see one this large. I chose to not shoot the second one, not really seeing the point, other than just sending 260 grains of accubond down range. I did kill three buffalo, all three will be mounted, in some degree. One, my largest buffalo to date will be a "bookend set" pedestal mount with a 44 I killed in Zambia. The other two will be Euro's.

Point being, as much as I love hunting buffalo, I just couldn't get myself to kill one without using some part of it at home.

I will emphatically agree the dipping/shipping game is a scam and prohibitive at times. BUT…we all know those cost are high going in. I just mentally pencil them in the the cost of hunting, the total cost.

Chugach Range. Ninth day of a 12-day trip, which was the last day I could hunt since it was a three-day walk out.

Walls full of mounts are fine if you're planning to stay where you're at. They're a b!tch to move! I've moved four times in the last six years and I ain't staying here. My next move will take me across the Mississip and may come within a year or two. Maybe sooner. My Moose mounts made it through a couple moves and then I sold them. The only thing better than getting those mounts done was selling the damn things. I'm too nomadic to want burdened with anything heavier than a deer mount anymore.

And beings how put out animals seem to get over dying I don't imagine one would feel "honored" knowing it's head was going on some guys wall until he dies and it hits the garage sale. I think the OP is trying to assuage some personal guilt or something thinking he is "doing right" by the animal.

hatari,

I guess I'm in your camp- The mounts I have, from trips all over the world and here in NA, are a constant reminder of happy times, and successful hunts, often enjoyed with friends and my wife. My friends and family love coming over to our house, and to admire some great taxidermy, often many times over. If there ever was a conversation starter among hunters, a trophy collection is it!

A lot of the stuff in my house is comprised of skulls, european mounts, and rugs. Photo albums of hunting trips are to be found on the coffee and end tables. In short, I thoroughly enjoy living those experiences again and again. For me, hunting is more than just killing stuff- just shooting animals isn't much more rewarding than a trip to the grocery store. I like to know that the meat is utilized by myself, my family, or in the case of places like Africa, local residents. And, not every animal ends up on a wall, far from it. Most of my hunting nowdays is here in Colorado, and mostly for meat- it's easier to get tags for cow elk and whitetail deer than anything else, and I can hunt every year.

Someday, I will have to deal with the reality of having to dispose of my collection. My wife and I have talked about it, and I have researched it enough to know there are sources out there for selling mounts to. Who knows, a new Cabelas store may open in my neighborhood someday, and they might want to buy an entire collection for their store!

For me the issue is a practical one, not a moral or ethical one.

After three safaris my man cave walls (and floors) are full and I will be downsizing my residence in a few years.

If I go to Africa again, it will be pictures only, unless I happen to take a most exceptional trophy. One exception would be a leopard. Hides take up little space.

If I go again I might be interested in a non-exportable elephant or a cull hunt.

Excellent post.

I think when you cleanly, by way of fair chase, dispatch an animal and then DON'T just let it lay there and rot, you've fulfilled any moral responsibility you have toward the animal. I've never been to Africa; but, it is my understanding the animals are all put to good use by the locals once killed by a hunter. I don't think anybody in this thread is advocating the random killing, taking photos and then leaving the animal for the vultures and hyenas. If that were the case, then your moral responsibility comment would be appropriate.

In addressing the point presented by the OP, the method of trophies being the photos and the memories as opposed to the costs associated with the transport and preservation of the actual animals, it's the only way I (and many others) will ever be able to do an African safari.

In the current political and social environment it is becoming more and more difficult to bring trophies to the US. Most airlines now ban transport of the big five or worse, an all out ban of all trophies. The Federal government now bans elephant trophies from most countries and lions from all countries. And New Jersey has passed legislation (pending the governor's signature) to ban certain trophies from entering the state.

I truly believe in conservation though hunting and believe in supporting those who practice good conservation practices. The main money makers for the guys in Zimbabwe and Mozambique are lion and elephant. If we all quit hunting lion and elephant I believe at will have a negative effect on operators ability to continue conservation efforts. From that stand point alone I would hunt elephant in Mozambique on a true fly camp, tracking, in the wilds of Africa hunt and be willing to leave the ivory with the operator. I would also hunt lion in Zimbabwe and leave the skull and tanned hide with the operator. The experience of making these types of hunts and supporting conservation efforts with good operators outweigh my need and want to take home trophies.

That being said every head of plains game I have shot is at my house or at the taxidermist. While I am not a big taxidermy guy I feel no need to shoot (as an example) another 55" kudu for the sake of shooting it and leave it behind. If a 60" kudu would be hunted I would shoot it and mount it.

Some of my best and hardest hunts have been tuskless elephant. I think in general it is accepted that no trophies are exportable from these hunts. And since it is illegal there is no way I would bring an elephant hair bracelet home, even though I do have several from giraffe hair I bought at the curio shop.

On to buffalo. I have several mounted in either shoulder or skull. One is a 49" buffalo. It is unlikely I will ever kill a larger buffalo. I have hunted non trophy on several occasion where we looked for a narrow bull with no drop in its horns. Those have been great hunts with no trophies taken home. I do regret not taking a trophy bull home. I killed it an Thanksgiving Day in the Della Valley in the Omay. Anybody who has hunted the Omay can imagine how bad the conditions are in November. We walked in from Siakobva, crossed a small mountain, and enjoyed one of the most difficult hunts I have ever been on. I left that trophy behind and to this day I regret it. It was a good buffalo but the memory of that hunt will always be with me. I wish the skull was in my office now.

Should we mount every animal we shoot? In some ways it is not practical. Should we hunt every animal ethically in a manner that supports conservation? Absolutely. Remember we are under a microscope in the public eye. Everything we do as individuals reflects on the hunting community as a whole.

Steve, you need to tackle a tough subject such as hero photos on the internet.

Hey Mike,

Articulate and informative, as usual with your posts. You've known me on various hunting forums for years. We are in agreement as to the sound conservation benefits of the hunting dollars generated from Elephant, Lion hunting.

I too agree if we stop hunting for these iconic species, they will, at some time, cease to exist, anywhere but national parks as is the case in Kenya. That said, I would never go shoot a trophy Elephant or Lion and not bring home the components required to mount them both. I do however completely understand your point and can't really disagree with you on the merits.

But, this discussion isn't and hasn't been about conservation. Its about greed and lack of respect for wild things. To only care about coming back sooner to pull the trigger more, simply tells me many of my fellow sportsman only care to kill things, to simply take their picture. You may disagree with my statements but if you re-read it, it is exactly what you are doing. Simple justification is the argument, not the process.

You point about the hero shots was to be the follow up. But since you brought it up, here goes.

Long ago, prior the dentist or the circumstances surrounding him, I had a mantra. For those familiar with the Brad Pitt movie, "Fight Club," there was a rule. "Don't talk about fight club." Simple enough.

If an activity is so controversial, or under a magnifying glass as Mike states, why on earth would we as sportsman, supply a cohesive opposition any ammunition in the form on "Hero shots" here or on AR, FB or any other social media? If you look at the sites of the opposition, they have copied trophy photos that we have provided them to raise awareness and money to stop our sport.

The international hunting community is far to small to make any difference as far as public opinion goes. Even American recreational, deer hunters, by and large don't necessarily agree with hunting Lions or Elephants.

Convince our elected representatives to agree with us?

Politicians for the most part only care about one thing, re-election. There are roughly 10,000 American sport hunters that travel to Africa annually to hunt. Of those there are, in total 1800-2000 that travel for either Lion-Elephant of both. (numbers now are far less). If you take that number and do a little math, do you think any elected politician is going to take the side of maybe 50 hunters? Their demographic, the great un-educated and un-informed masses of brainwashed, politically correct followers will vote them out of office, first chance.

Therefore, the only way, as I see it to continue to sport hunt internationally, is to fly under the radar. I've personal posted photos, but have long since sanitized them removed anything that may be used against the hunting demographic, my brothers.

There are those of you that would marginalize or diminish my personal opinion about this. Those that do, only silence my principles as I have no voice, when my silence is the goal.

I've been castigated on AR and FB for these thoughts. Some, tell me I've retreated. I have not, I simply feel that those that need to pose behind a trophy and post pictures all over the internet are simply doing so to feed their ego's. My skin is sufficiently thick to at least make an effort to perhaps change just one mind here. If I can accomplish that, mission accomplished.

I don't think ANYONE will argue that the Dentist and Cecil was the impetus as to the current attacks on hunting, even the New Jersey thing. Can anyone argue the point that had that picture, NOT been posted and the enlist simply went about his business, the landscape would be far different than it is now?

So, should our goal be to be right, or to continue hunting?

Dr. Palmer inadvertently caused many problems. All the poor guy did was share a photo. The crime in all is what the crazy anti-s are allowed to get away with.

After that photo was posted, the antis hacked the photo library of my good friend who is an outfitter and PH in RSA. Found a folder labeled "Hatari" family safari, from 2011. Looked me up on the Google, found phone numbers, and I had about 2 weeks worth of harassment.

Yes, the world has changed.

Personally, I like seeing photos of hunters with their kills. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if we stop posting those because we're afraid of what the anti's will say, they've won.

Can you please point to one Social Media campaign that sportsman have won?

I see nothing but a long list of losses, USFWS regulations, countries closing certain species or closing all together.

The public at large will never be convinced of hunting through conservation, regardless the science. If you think putting up more pictures is the way forward, carry on. You and those like you have taken my choice from me.

As I stated prior, do you want to be right or do you want to continue hunting? Simple choice actually. I even think these forums should be pay sites. The anti movement has one weakness, they're cheap. They would never spend their own money for published magazines or books. If they can't "right click save" they won't pursue it. The monies could be further put back into conservation projects. A self fulfilling prophecy.

If you think that's what I said, you should improve your reading comprehension.

I said we shouldn't be afraid to.

Come on Smokepole, That was clearly (I thought) meant to read as "you" the collective.

I understood your comment. I'm not afraid to post pictures either, I just know better.

I can look back at my African hunting and feel pretty comfortable in knowing I did pretty much all I wanted to do. With Ethiopia being the exception. When I did Tanzania in October, I said to myself, several times, this is getting ridiculously complex. The gun permitting, the airlines gun policies, dealing with curt and rude TSA and Immigration officers.

About 8 years ago, I discovered fishing in South America. It gives me all the adventure I need, The costs, I can do 4-5 trips to Brazil, Guyana or Suriname for the price of a single Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. There is no taxidermy, no trophy fees, no dipping and shipping. The weather is nice all the time. three hours time difference from Arizona (no jet lag) .

I also appreciate the fact that my days are mine. I have an Indian boat driver, who just goes where I ask him to go. It's all on me. My success or failure is mine an mine alone.

Point being, many of us, myself included consider ourselves sportsman first, hunter or fisherman it doesn't matter to me, I'm an outdoorsman.

I never thought there would come a time in my lifetime that I would see the sunset of hunting in Africa. As Mike70560 states, without the iconic species being hunted, the rest don't stand a chance in wild Africa. There will likely always be game farms for us to hunt if thats what we desire.

I have zero problem with hero shots and I put them on FB.

Not sure what all that has to do with posting photos, but if you don't want to, then don't.

But don't try to tell me that I can't.

So I assume you brought every fish back and is stuck on your wall somewhere. Please post some pics. If you didn't you're an egocentric, unethical sportsman.

It's called catch and release.

Not trying to tell you what to do. It's called a discussion. Do as you will.

What it has to do with posting photos is, this last episode with the Dentist and Cecil has tipped the critical mass of effort/rewards on hunting to a point that many,many sportsman are looking elsewhere for adventure. There is a thread on another forum right now. It is discussing how African hunting has become so expensive and complicated, many are pulling the plug.

You unethical slob........

Egocentric, Unethical slob, Noted.

What amuses me with this forum. There is precious little posting in this sub-forum. This thread, as of right now, has 63 posts and over 3,000 views, since Friday.

There are only a few on the front page that have more and those have been up for weeks or months. There are a few forum "cool kids" here. They seem to set the tone.

It's obvious to me, that someone with real world experience, that has some views contrary isn't really welcome here. So, that said, I won't bother you or any of the other forum superstars any longer.

You know what they say when the name calling starts eh? You've lost the argument.

Cheers and good hunting.

Chip, you keep bringing up Cecil. The issue there was not that the "Hunter" posted a photo. It was the backstory.

Save the money for mounting and shipping, towards another trip

I see absolutely no issue with that.

To suggest that someone is not ethical because they choose not to deal with all the hassle and expense is ludicrous.

I am going on my first trip to Africa in a little over a month. I do not have any set plans as to what I will do with any of the animals I have successfully hunted. The hunt and the experience will determine what will get mounted, turned into a rug, European, or stays on continent.

I am not going over there with a grocery list that needs to be checked off, or a tape measure. I am going over with the attitude that I am getting to experience Africa and will gratefully accept whatever the hunt brings.

Taxidermy of our hunts are special to us in this house and each bring back memories of special or challenging hunts, and lifetime experiences.

I am much more concerned about your language of "whacking critters". That tells much about your hunting mentality regardless of what you do after they are "whacked"

If you ain't bringing back ALL the meat to eat, you're a slob.

It's obviously up to the individual. No wrong answer IMO.

Yeah, I'll tough it out being a slob then. Really looking forward to the evening meals though.

EdM, you are spot on.

Concur..