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What do you think works better on deer 200 yards or less?

A fast lite bullet built for deer hunting or a larger caliber with a 150 grain or bigger.

Which one do you think would drop a deer quicker its tracks?

Lung shots only, I will take velocity with enough penetration. .

High shoulder and they won't move with either. But here I'm stuck with heavy and slow.

Penetration is the key. Years ago when bullets sucked the only way to get penetration was to go heavier. Today you can go fast and still get penetration. No reason to have to choose.

I like complete penetration. You're going to need premium bullets at speed or big and slow. Either way, it's been my experience that they run 80 yards without a heart regardless of what you hit them with. Your other choice is high shoulder shots.

I think it's hard to generalize. I can say that 130 -165 gr bullets like a Nosler Partition in 270,7mm and 30 cal,driven 2800-3200 fps kills the biggest bucks very quickly;if not DRT with chest/shoulder hits, they sure aren't going anywhere very far. Ballistics of that level tends to overwhelm them.

You will also recover very few. They tend to exit even on short shots through shoulders.

Two last year,one DRT and the ether scrambled 20 yards.

170 gr 30/30, 180 gr 300 savage, 165 gr .308 are my choices for northeastern whitetails. Lots of drts, good blood trails for typically short tracking (75 yds or less).

its hard to beat either the 130 corelokt in 270 or the 165 corelokt in '06. they both drop them dead and are flat enough to shoot POA from 25 yards to 200. the 130 especially has been good for me.

Speed and a good bullet under 200. Two fasted kills were with a 85 gr Barnes X bullet. T'was like someone kicked their legs out from under them!

Second fasted were 308 130 TTSX. Five deer less than a dozen steps between them all together in 2015.

Both.

My wife has hit several with an assortment of projectiles from a Dodge mini van to a Honda Accord.

Her latest weapon of choice.



DRT!!

I've switched off between a .30-30 and a .243 every season for 20 years and can't see that it makes much difference. I've run 100, 95 and 85 gr. bullets at 2950, 3000 and 3200 fps in the .243 and 150 and 170 gr. at 2300 and 2100 in the .30-30. With lung shots most tend to run 20-60 yds. before they fall over with either. I prefer the .30-30 with 170's in thick areas because it almost always exits and leaves a good blood trail. If you want to drop deer instantly shot placement that disrupts the central nervous system is the only thing that can be relied on. I've busted deer through the lungs with a .308, .30-06 and 12 gauge slugs many times and had them run off. Every one I killed with a .22LR was shot in the head and dropped in it's tracks.

How about a meaningless math problem? A westbound F-350 with a pallet of bricks lumbers into a blind corner. At the same time, an eastbound crotch rocket heads into the same corner at full throttle, cutting the corner as he makes the turn. Because of the bike's high speed, both the bike and the truck carry the same kinetic energy. They meet headlight to license plate. Who wins the game? Because of it's much higher momentum, the truck will win in spite of the bike's equal KE.

Obviously, the only way this can be compared to the bullets is if the fast, light bullet and the slow heavy bullet meet head-on in which case the light one will probably be obliterated. It has no relation whatever to what happens when either hits a deer. I'm just showing that you can play math games all day long and not get even close to the right answer.

Depends, light fast favors a good mono bullet IMHO. And they kill well. Not heard of anything getting far with a 243 85 Barnes....or even 223 + Barnes.

Avoid frangible bullets at high vel close shots save neck or perhaps lung shots. Yes, I've dumped them with both using 6BR and 243 using 70gr TNTs. You MUST choose shot placement when using a bullet NOT made for big game, if you want to be humane, and successful.

Shot placement delivering a payload that will destroy vitals upon penetration is the key. Vitals vary, so do bullets and placement.

I like soft bullets in soft tissue, harder bullets in harder tissue. "Medium hardness bullets - sandwiched between say a TNT or varmint bullet, and a FMJ may well work best for all around, short and long distance, at various shot angles.

On Deer, MY 1st choice is typically an Accubond, though Ballistic tips in various configs have few peers i.e. the 95gr in 6mm/243. The Partition above is one that is often the benchmark, and the Accubond seems to act very similarly in deer.

Not sure there will be enough difference to really care. All will work fine but all will eventually have an instance where the deer somehow managed to go a distance that is hard to believe and could lead to a lost animal if conditions are right. In summary they are all capable deer rounds.

I've used both. Usually a 308 165 gr @ 2600 fps. With my 77/44, you can eat the meat all the way to the bullet hole. With the 7mm Mag, have to trim a good deal more. Big and slow for table fare (for me).

Aside from CNS hits...speaking of busting lungs/heart only:

Light bullets with thin jackets drop them fast.
Heavier, stouter cup and cores not as fast as above.
Light or heavy monolithic's not as fast as either of the above.

If not shooting bone, fast and frangible works quickest, but there are some demanding shots where it might not offer the penetration. I've found medium speeds with medium weight and moderate construction to be most reliable. A good mid-weight cup/core or bonded version at 2,600-2,800 fps seems to produce pretty dependable results on deer.

A fast bullet that's light for caliber and sturdy like a Barnes just plain works when it hits Bambi and because it's easier on the shooter, they usually shoot it better too.

As far as dropping them in their tracks...that will be whichever one you can most consistently put into the CNS. So, probably also a light fast bullet.

This I know for certain: I can destroy the contents of the chest and drop blood pressure to zero instantly. Doing so is no guarantee of dropping the deer where it stands though.

Given those facts, it really doesn't make a lot of difference Last year I did pretty much that with a bow. Three through the heart top to bottom one of which stayed with the 2 inch Rage in the heart. A fourth one severed the arteries and veins feeding the lungs, so 0 BP on that one instantly too. One went 6 feet. One went 60 yards. One went 100 yards. One went 200 yards. If you can't predict accurately what very consistent wounds will do to a given deer any better than that, the question is moot. I have seen a deer with all four lower legs broken and held only by skin do a remarkable job of running off. I have never seen a CNS hit deer run off though. Hit them way back in the spine near the pelvis and they go down right there. They might try to drag themselves by their front legs, but the back end goes down and stays down. I've shot a lot of deer in the head (usually just under the skull to clip the brain stem) and never seen one of them go anywhere but straight down and stay there.

I shot a fawn 6-8 years back with a 250 grain Barnes out of a muzzle loader. 1700 FPS right through both scapula at the base, just above the shoulder joint. When I gutted it there was a chunk of lung the size of my fist and the rest was red soup. The heart but for 1/4 of it was gone, and what was left was well shredded. There was a golf ball sized hole all the way through. That little deer not only didn't go down taking a hit like that, it had the nerve to run off. Made it 50-60 yards.

The good bullets we have now have changed the game but I still tend to favor heavier ones.

A rapid drop in blood pressure can cause an animal to go into shock. I once shot a smallish bull elk 4 times through the lungs with a 270 using 150 gr bullets. He didn't move but just stood there the whole time before he ran out of blood and flopped. Each shot was a killer and he was dead on his feet. His lungs were like jello, just a gooey mass. One shot broke the far shoulder. I don't know how long he would have stood there if the bone hadn't broke.

again, deer live a LOT longer than folks think they do.

Folks are amazed when they witness it. IE the 4 shots to the elk.

Generally most animals run off and by the time you get all your stuff together and go look they've died.

But the ones that don't run.... you see it.

Even if you bang flop one, you are still gathering gear, and so on, such that you don't realize its down but its still dying.

I've brain shot a LOT of animals over the years... DRT... yeah, well given some time that is true.

I've been able to shoot a few just to see, and as soon as the gun goes off I"m heading their way, and you can still see the blood pumping, a few times felt the heart, and obviously at some point minutes later the hair goes through its reactions to death by standing up on end and then relaxing.

There is no point to my post, other than DRT only really mostly means they won't move as they die.

To answer the topic... doesn't matter to me.. I've shot em with literally about everything you can shoot em with. I've seen em drop to tiny rounds and run like hell when punched with the 50 bmg. And about everything in between.

I tend to fall back to mid to heavy barnes almost exclusively for game these days. And the exception is running heavy berger target bullets in my 308. Even that gun is tuned for 168ttsx for some jobs.

I prefer shooting over the heart, while saving the heart for table fare. Any chambering/load combination causing excessive damage, is bad and a no go in my book. There are numerous great combinations that do work exceedingly well, for inside 200 yards. Using a 270 Winchester as a single example:

My best results came from a traditional 150 grain round nose. The long straight length in the bore is inherently accurate and easily results in great loads, and inside 200 yards is extremely effective, while resulting in a clean, quality meat yield. Light and fast combinations in this chambering tend to cause excessive damage that ruins too much edible meat.

Such good combinations can be found in numerous chamberings.

100gr 25 cal Hornady @ 3700+. over forty deer from 25 yards to 350 and not one has taken a step. Speed kills..

22 responses and not a single "Hammer of Thor" reference?

The Hammer Of Thor is definitely a 270 Winchester FWT with 130 grain BT...

Yikes, I must have been typing when the critic was announcing the lack of "HOT"

Thank gawd there are still signs of intelligent life in this place.

This.

Bullet construction matters more than what is on the cartridge head stamp. With deer, I've found 90-150 grain bullets such as Nosler BTs to be about as good as it gets out of 243s to 30-06s and about every cartridge in between. They get it done on deer..

my personal favorite,

I think that a 220 gr from a 06 or a 160 gr from a 264 mag is the ticket, so I'm in the heavy and slow

I tend toward the heavy for caliber mind set. The exception being the 270 Win. In the 270 Weatherby and WSM,I'll take the heavier pills. As far as dropping deer in their tracks goes,sever the spine close to the head. If you plan to shoot them in the body,don't expect a lot of them to drop on the spot. Here are a couple deer from my past that bucked the system.

One was a big old breeder doe. Range was just shy of fifty yards. Took her right through the pump with a 200g 338 Win mag bullet. She pulled her legs up and bounced when she hit the ground. Little if any edible meat was harmed. Pretty unexciting wound channel.

Number two is a similarly sized doe,close to your 200 yard criteria. Same shot. Right through the heart. 130gr 270 Weatherby mag. She made a mad dash for fourty or fifty yards soaking the brush with blood. The entrance wound was as big as my fist.

One would think the fast explosive bullets would yield quicker on the spot kills. Not necessarily.

You are on a quest that will yeild unconclusive results...and the expendature of needless dollars. Have fun!

Thanks for all the great information!

Give me speed w/a decent bullet. powdr

Crotch rockets are highly frangible...

Speed and construction.

Yep!!

Both, thats why I like the TTSX's.

Shot placement trumps all else.

That said, a fast-opening bullet that also has enough azz to punch through and leave two holes for leaking blood is very helpful, as is the spray of tissue and blood and hair that gives solid evidence of a hit at the spot where the deer was standing. Also helpful are holes low enough on the body that blood accumulating in the chest will begin to drip out and leave a trail. There are lots of bullets that can do the job now and weight need not be much of a factor, except maybe for straight cup & core designs.

The buck I killed in 2011 was hit center-chest, tight behind the shoulder with a 130gr Hornady IL, which didn't exit, but did knock a clump of hair off the far side of the chest. The deer ran about 150 yards without leaving a drop of blood even though his lungs were totally souped. A lower hit or a pass-through would have given me a blood trail to work with instead of just tracks in the leaves.

15 years ago if a man even thought about shooting a deer w/a .224 caliber rifle he'd of been thought of as a low down cacklin heathen. Today w/the advent of the tsx it's common practice. powdr

My 30-06 weighs a pound less than my 22-250. It's no contest on which one I carry deer hunting.

ttsx may kill good but nothing i shoot likes them.

the 270 with 130,140 or 150 gr bullets i consider mid weight
and the best weights for deer.some like 50-75 grn,to light for me. i never seen the need for 180-220gn on anything in north america.

just give me a regular old hornady sp bullet.

It has been my experience that one can never predict how a critter will react to a lung or shoulder shot, regardless of speed, bullet construction or the like. Sometimes they drop instantly, sometimes they run up to about 50 yards...and in rare cases they run 100+ yards, sometimes even with broken shoulders.

A CNS hit is the only 100% reliable way to instantly drop a critter, regardless of any variable put into the bullet/impact speed equation. Speed does tend to drop them quicker in general, whether straight lung or shoulder shot. The flip side of that coin is that light bullets start shedding velocity faster, but at 200 or less in this thread's example this point is moot.

Way before we could have this kind of debate on the Internet...I wondered the same...so I informally did some real testing...and always insisted on killing a deer with every center fire rifle I own...
The best most consistent is the 30/06 loaded with 150 gr Speer....always bang flop...blood shot meat tho..
Worst was 243. Never could get one to drop in his tracks...always killed fine just some tracking involved..blood shot too.
220 swift kills like lightning..blood shot meat
257 Roberts love it....less meat damage lots of DRT
7 mag 280 rem. always pass through and deer runs off and dies 100 yds or so..
223 with tsx ....will work in a pinch but not fast enough for me...
300 why. With 200 ab....works fine but too much gun for deer..
6-284----same result as 243
Never fired a 270 at a deer....

I am of the school of thought that because the attitude and position of game can not be predicted and because any bullet must penetrate to the vitals to kill quickly speed can become less important than accuracy and sectional density. I tend to want a minimum SD of .240 and prefer something above .250 if possible. Deer hunting I am most likely to go with rifles from .257 to .308 with "heavier for caliber" bullets and then adequate speed for consistent PBR accuracy at nominal hunting ranges. Few "average" hunters are competent beyond 300 yards at "minute of deer" and over 300 I am not as comfortable as I would like to be. Many in here seem to be much more skillful than most people afield and more power to them. I am not restricted by law to lead-free ammo but I have tried many and found no measurable benefit.

Well said...
I have settled on 180 gr 30/06 load as my favorite
257 Roberts with a RN 117 a close second..
My son uses a 708. And has great success..
Heavy and slower trumps speed for most hunting situations as you may have to pass a quartering forward shot with a 22 cf...where a heavy bullet will have no problem busting through a shoulder..

Interesting. I think you need more testing.

The 257 is a reliable killer.

Have only shot varmints with the 243. Never thought much of it and still don't.


Not surprised at the 30/06. Although I have bang/flopped as many or more more with the 7 mag/280 category as the 30/06 and see no difference.They are both as good as the 30/06.

The various 300 mags are very effective killers which isn't hard to figure. I wouldn't call them too big to the point you shouldn't use them but they aren't needed either. On a a combo hunt where deer are mixed with bigger animals they are great.

The 270 is a wicked killer on the largest whitetails and mule deer.....FYI

I don't dislike either 7 mag or 280... These 2 and the 30/06 have taken the most deer....wonder if our 2 experience diff are more a product of range shot and size of deer? Most of the deer I shot were actually inside 100 longest being 325 with the 06...more a product of my hunting area...
I had to think but I was wrong on the 7 mag I did have a bang flop with the 7 mag...very large body buck at close to 200..
What I learned over the years is there is not much out there that won't get it done....6mm was my least favorable result in my hunting situation....if I were hunting bean fields with expected shots at 300 plus I would be ok with the 6-284.. But I would still reach for the 300 wby....then shoot a buck at 40 yds like I did last season....there is really no ideal calibure to cover every situation...that why we need one of each.....

rainier: Different bullets maybe, different days and deer, ranges vary etc. Lots of variables show different results.

Most all my deer have been mature bucks because most of the hunts have been for those,and the northern variety from New England to Central Canada,so are fairly large in body weight. But not all!

Generally I have liked cartridges like the 270/280 which i would use on any deer anywhere.....elk, too!

Agreed... I bet I could get by with a good ol 7x57

I think a bullet that opens well offers quickest results but not if penetrations was a trade off.

By slow- what do you mean? I tried slow with 44mag 225g Lever Revolutions that put some good size holes in things but did not see much expansion. I am switching bullets for this rilfe.

I used a downright sluggish, by this crowds standard, 140 gameking in my 260 and I have never gotten that typical 80- yd run mentioned in a prior post.

Using Hornady Interloks in my 270 in 130-150 I had deer run. Using 140 Gameking - did not (but a limited sample).

People swear by 95nbt for 243. I have yet to try them but always have deer run when hit with anything else 85-105 I have tried in my 6mm even with great penetration. Sampling of a few dozen over years.

Within certain parameters it isn't cartridges or even bullets. It's placement. Anything 270 to 30 caliber gives similar results.

Lung shots....you will get runners sometimes no matter what you use. Shoulder or taking running gear angled through vitals you will get a lot more bang flops than with straight lung shots.

Within 200 yards I have not seen anything to beat a Nosler Partition from 270 to 30 caliber. Penetration is usually complete and DRT's common.I haven't had a buck move out of sight after being hit by one in a very long time.....unless they went straight down.

I often wonder whats the best powder for them things. Is she using Reloader 87 or Superformance 94? It sure left a mark either way.

I was deer hunting with a 22-250 over 20 years ago. And it wasn't especially rare then. The .222 had long enjoyed a great reputation as a deer getter with those 50 grain Remingtons.