Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Honady discontinuing Amax?

Gentlemen,
As is per usual I get on the bandwagon late, however, I finally found several Hornady Amax's that work past perfect in several chamberings. Short question: Why does Hornady SEEM to be discontinuing one of their keystone products? Just got over Ballistic Tips and found Amaxs and now they are taking them off the market. What is the scoop?

Regards, Matt.

They're phasing them out with their new ELD line of tipped bullets...heat/erosion resistant tips. At this time I think they have 6.5, 7, 30, and 338 offerings. Not sure what their plans are for the remaining calibers with Amax offerings.

Hornady seems hell bent on driving customers away. Found the last two boxes of 100 gr 25 cal IL-FB's in my area last weekend.

Once those are gone, I won't buy another 25 cal Hornady bullet. It will be Noslers and Barnes from then on.

I really hope someone from Hornady reads this.

Depends on bullet weight.. supposedly the A Max tips suffer from heat deformation at high speed, and fast twists.... the ELD is designed not to... instead of changing the tip on the A Max, evidently their marketing folks are deciding a new name will sell better.. Lord knows the bullet market, consumers always seem to want something that is the "latest and greatest" vs what has been tried and true for decades...

but everyone wants a 700 to 1000 yd capable cartridge to take a deer at under a 100 yds...

in 22 cal, the 75 and 80 A Maxes are not on the chopping block, and neither is the 100 grain A Max in 6.5 mm... for now... at least as explained to me after just getting off the line with Hornady's Customer Service folks...

Pretty sure the Nosler PT continues to sell just fine

I would suggest that once consumers find a bullet that works really well, every time, they are very unlikely to leave that bullet.

Hornady is making a mistake by discontinuing the AM, IMO. Once my considerable stash of AM is gone, I highly doubt I'll pay the premium to start using the ELD. There are other premium LR bullets to choose from once you start getting into the price range of the ELD.

It will be interesting to see which A-Maxes disappear. I'd probably sell my remaining stocks of them, because using discontinued bullets in handloading articles doesn't make sense.

However, Speer claimed they were phasing Hot-Cors out in favor of DeepCurls a few years ago--and then reversed themselves.

1. Call Hornady

2. Get the straight poop

3. Profit

I wish I knew what happened to the letter I got from Ruger when I queried them about making rifles from stainless steel (like a few of their revolvers), and putting them in synthetic stocks. They said they "had no plans" but came out with them a few months later. (I think maybe I'll seek "royalties" for my successful idea! )

IOW, good luck getting "straight poop" from a manufacturer, but it's possible.

Sometimes....

....and who's making the query?

Interesting on the tip burning...

Having shot a LOT of amaxes at longer ranges, I can say I never had anything weird going on.

And if you shot one with a tip missing, its impact was WAY weird.

I'd think burning the tips off would result in some strange issues from time to time.

I think they are full of BS or that the tips burned off or melted uniformly.

Some of your Co- writers have no issue using bullets that have been discontinued in their article........
You are a fine exception in your craft.

As long as the 162 ELD is basically the same as the 162 Amax all is good. If not........ boys, get a rope.

I'm playing with some of the 208 ELD's in my '06; it likes them very much, which is a good sign. One thing the Amax is that it's always been an easy bullet to get to shoot.

By the way... Hornady made DRASTIC changes to the 162 Amax at some point. I have some of the old ones... different shape, ogive location, tip....

Matt- one other thing you might not know about this is that Horn is replacing the Amax with TWO bullets: the ELD and then a "hunting" version that is tested for controlled expansion. This is true of the venerable 162 at least. Remaining to be seen is if the hunting version shoots as well as the Amax and, hopefully, the ELD. I believe they've gone to an interlock ring on the hunting version. In theory that hurts accuracy but, who knows.

A hunting 162 Amax with the same BC and yet some resistance to blowing up doesn't suck one bit! So fingers crossed.

Hornady claimed that they had proven with radar that the bullets were not meeting expected downrange ballistic coefficients, and traced the cause to erosion damage to the tips.

Me, I would have rented one of those ultra-high speed cameras and fired bullets past it at long range, and visually confirmed the point was getting rounded off. If they did it, and confirmed that the Amax (and competitive bullets) had the problem, and the new bullet fixed the problem, then the photos could have been a terrific marketing campaign for them. But what do I know, I just design, make, and sell metal stuff?

It's not implausible that the tips round off. Aircraft that fly supersonic at low altitude certainly have significant skin heating problems. The problem might be worse with ultra-high speed cartridges.

maybe only in 223 with 75 amax you never see the problem.

I know the BC was as close as you generally get comparing to drop and drift actual shot locations.

Probably never got em hot enough?

But in the end, you'd think, hey, same amax, different material in the tip, same general price would be my thought....

Yup, the price increase and name change strikes me as an excuse to gouge.

And Hornady isn't saying the tips melt off, they're saying the tips warm up and begin deforming in flight, altering the close to mid-range BC values, until velocity drops off.

They could have simply changed the tip without changing anything else...they decided to scrap the whole line and change the name to ELD which rhymes with VLD, pretty obvious why.

I'll never buy an ELD. Fact. If I get to the point where I'm worried about bullet tips burning off, I'll use a Skinner or a Berger.

I'll buy shïtloads of them, if they shoot like the 162 Amax. And I'm buying another box of the 208 ELD's tomorrow, and they are considerably cheaper than Bergers, as well, at least at Cabelas.

If they don't? As I said... boys, get a rope.





I gotta think that Hornady just MAYBE knew what they had in the Amax and didn't make it WORSE........ hell, maybe it's actually a little better now.

Could be. Probably a big difference in aerodynamic heating, between 2700 fps and 3300fps, when using a bigger cartridge.

I sent Hornady an email, and they confirmed the ELD-M are the SAME as the A-max with the new tip. The ELD-X are a different animal. Email copied below:

tech
Apr 25

to me
Mr. Lake,

At this point in time the only thing that is different between the A-Max and the ELD-M is the tip.

Thank you

Just the tip?

That's what she said.


Somehow there's a correlation in the two scenarios,

Somebody's going to get the shaft.

Even running the amax 75 at 2850 instead of 2700 isn't as much as 3300 I would agree.

And when running fast, I don't recall running amax in the 22-250 at 1000, just the 80 jlk and 80 smk at that time...

Reading further the new ELD M should be same cost or a few pennies more than the old ones due to new tip material.

Unless the new tip material is that bastard unobtanium stuff.

I swung through Cabelas and saw that they had gotten in some 162 ELD-X's. Grabbed a box to try. Please please please let them be super accurate!



I like pics showing controlled expansion with attached impact velocities. And, what a BOX!

Here it is next to a 162 Amax.... Amax on the left. Clearly a different bullet. The blood-red tip is a nice touch.

Dude,


Get a jackrag next time.....

Never been that excited over bullets.

Jackrag! Thanks, I learned something new today. That should come in handy...

Who needs a jackrag when Hornady furnishes 'what a BOX'....





Just jack-in-the-BOX.......

I may go up and shoot a tester with the X's here this morning..... if they are super accurate, THEN I'll need the.... WTF do you crazy kids call it... "jackrag"....

A legit long range bullet that holds together up close remains a bit of a Holy Grail...

Good to read that quote from Hornady about the regular ELD's/Amax. When I was emailing with their tech department about it, I never could pin the dude down to saying that specific thing ("it's exactly the same except the tip").... that's comforting.

(This all probably sounds a bit crazy to peeps who don't use Amax's but they are such an accurate and just as important EASY bullet to get to shoot really well that any changes are spooky! )

It doesn't exist.

But it's no suprise that you would swallow that kind of crap up.

At least you got the box open. Congratulations!?!

Sadly so.

Early reports are that ELD-X are kind of soft for up close/hv. Time will tell.

If they could only come out with a more modern tip like bronze or aluminum (some call that silver).

Gad, you can be a tool.

I'm not talking timber hunting, poop-shoot up close, dingbat. Which you knew. But your tooliness got the better of you. Tool.

Ok. Please explain your current issues with the terminal performance of the Berger VLD and Scenar.

And then explain how the magical ELD will solve all of the problems you describe. Please.

Steve and Jason Hornady, and company should have spent a little more time planning the 'phasing out' of the AMax. From what I'm seeing the demand for the 6.5mm projectiles - AMax, ELD-M, and ELD-X - is likely beyond their wildest dream. Bare shelves cannot help sell a product - new or old.

Should have asked when they plan on running enough to stock dealer shelves! Bet they have a 'canned' response for that question.

Ill admit I don't get the whole premium bullet thing. The c&c said have always worked fine for me. From the mfg. perspective it does offer a opportunity for charging more but I'd be a bit concerned about losing market share.

No offense and fellow NM guy to NM guy, but have you ever thought of giving up posting for maybe a few years? I will if you will, at least outside of the classifieds. All to improve the fire!

He did give up for a while, but just like chronic diarrhea he returned.

Why would I shoot either one when I can shoot a Sierra?

Gentlemen,
I greatly appreciate the input...

I think Jordan hit this one spot on. Nosler is still able sell the rather old fashioned Partition without a name change every time they've made a modest improvement through the years.

Hornady HAD one hell of a worldwide following with the Amax. Why risk that? Fix what's broken don't futch up what is working splendidly. Will be curious to read what Nathan Foster at Ballistic Studies has to say about the new bullets.

Regards, Matt.

Wonder if the tips will melt while Nathan's "annealing" the bullets.

I do like certain Hornady bullets, but I find this whole melting tip thing laughable.

Start shooting stuff a long way away, and "premium" bullets make a lot more sense.

Plus one; sure seems like a pure marketing ploy.

All will be forgiven if a) they drop right into existing Amax loads and perform the same and b) they are obtainable more easily than the 162 AM was. At least at the one store locally that really stocks this kind of stuff, looking good.... they had all manner of ELD's and some ELD-X's in stock as well.

Shot a few 162 ELD-X's the other day... they held MOA but that's crappy for that rifle.

By all accounts that I trust, the ELD Match are shooting as well or better than the AMAX across the board.

Because if the Sierra bullet used is a Tipped Match King (TMK) the tip might melt.

Awesome. I have 700-800 Amax 162's left but I'm running through them fast.

I typed that last post in a hurry. Don't want to give the impression I'm getting bad results from the ELD-X. First try, which was very casual because I was mostly messing with a new scope, I simply dropped the ELD's into my fairly mild Amax load, made sure I wasn't in the lands, and shot them. They did "ok". I'll do a more formal load workup next week.

What I like in THEORY with the ELD-X's is that the Interlock design is well-liked and trusted. I've only used Interlocks on game in .35 caliber so what do I know, but I sure hear them getting some love from guys like Dogzapper and many others..... so if they'll hold together like that, shoot really good, and have that .630 BC then they become very interesting to a guy (me) who hasn't yet settled on a LR elk bullet.

When Berger started claiming how their match bullets worked on game, everyone thought they were full of crap.

When Barnes started selling pure copper bullets, nobody ever thought they'd work good if they even worked at all.

Hornady may or may not be onto something. I think it's pretty funny how many will bad mouth Hornady for something that they can't prove, yet Nosler prints false BC's time and time again (that are easily debunked) and uses them in their advertisements!

The real pisser about the Hornady "just the tip" campaign is the cost increase. Hornady bean counters will consider it a win because of guys like JeffO who shoot more than anybody else and skew the popularity numbers...

The owners just might be happy, too.

Agreed. A minor improvement would be welcomed, but when there's a cost increase for something that so far hasn't been a problem, I'm a little annoyed.

I have 3 rifles that luv them some 162 Amax, yes indeed I will make the bean counters at Hornady happy if the ELD's do the same or better.

Personally, ammo cost has only ever caused me to stop shooting in one instance, when NATO surplus 7.62 dried up. I had two M1a's that got heavy use when battle packs of milsurp were $45/200 rounds... when that went away I sold them. Couldn't afford to feed them.

You don't think they are counting beans?

32 cent bullets out of three rifles is ok? But god forbid a couple .308's are expensive to feed....

This is why I find the whole thing laughable. Here we have numerous shooters/hunters at 24HCF that have proven the AMAX as a good flyer and killer at distance. On the other hand, we have Hornady who says they had to invent a new bullet because the current AMAX was a faulty product.

Which group is full of crap? I gotta say Hornady.

It was only faulty in that it wasn't giving them the profit margins they would have liked.

They never said the Amax was faulty, simply that it could be better.

So a melting bullet tip isn't faulty?

The only way to make the Amax better would have been to make it cheaper. Dumb bastids.

Cheaper? How much cheaper did you want what was already the cheapest relevant long range bullet to be?

I swear...folks will bitch about anything. God forbid a manufacturer attempt to make a product improvement. I didnt see a great wailing and gnashing of teeth when Sierra tipped the Match King...and the price of that increased as well. Hell, the ELD Match and ELD X are still cheaper than the TMK..

I wasn't bitching, but I'd be really happy with free bullets.

The difference is that you could still buy the regular MK as well. I'd gladly welcome the ELD if they still offered the AM at the same time.

Everything always gets more expensive, it never gets cheaper. Unless they start making the same product with half-ok quality in China or similar. Then prices drop dramatically.

At least that's the way it works here.

I was saying that they couldn't improve on the Amax. But whatever.

fwiw & imho,
Marketing stupidity in action... The Amax name has earned a superb reputation far beyond our shores. Rob Furlong, the Canadian Sniper in Afghanistan for example, made the second longest sniper shot in history with a McMillan Tac-50 and a Hornady 750 grain A-Max... Thomas Haugland on Youtube is fairly interesting and he bought 123 and 140 grain 6.5mm Amax's in bulk. Made it very clear the 140 was his favorite bullet... They could have corrected the tip issue, IF THERE WAS A TIP ISSUE, and maintained the name and cache it has EARNED. Oh no let's start over...

Someone tell Nosler it is about time they ditch the Partition and Ballistic Tip... Change the names so no one can find chit that they've been using using for years. One need look no further than Alliant's Powder Lineup if you want confusion. We now have Reloader 15, 16, and 17. I say add an 18, 20, and 21 as well... They can't even keep up with current demand for LEGACY products and they continue to expand the product line. This must make sense to someone... When he is found get him to explain it all...

Regards, Matt.

If you want sticker shock, price the 7mm scenars.

FWIW, I have been messing with the 162 ELD-X, the hunting version in my chunky 7 WSM. Today I found my load; 7 shots into 1/2" or so center to center. Best part, exact same POI at 100 yards as the 162 Amax, which given that they are very different bullets, was not a given.

We will see what we see terminally, and if the BC holds up at long ranges, but the bullet just got veddy eeenteresting to me.

Now where's that jackrag.........

Has anyone tried the 162 BTHP? No tip and a little loss in BC but they've shot well (in other calibers) for me.