Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Tough Game!

I have never been to Africa but have been watching a lot of pretty good videos on You Tube lately, about hunting Cape Buffalo and lion.

What jumps out and impresses me a great deal is how much of a pounding these two animals can take before they expire,even with seemingly well placed shots.

Those animals are tough!

It seems these guys are using mostly 375's and 416's.

I'm not looking for a "this caliber vs that" conversation here just making an observation and am interested in personal experiences of those who have done either. I will never shoot a lion but am planning to go to Africa next year and a buffalo is a possibility.

A buddy of mine shot a buffalo with a .416, and the bullet passed through 2 chambers of the heart (according to the veterinarian who did a post mortem.) The buffalo was still on its feet after 20 minutes--just standing, so it was not pumping much blood due to exertion, but still an impressive display of "notdeqviting."

And on my only buffalo hunt, my rifle was chambered for a cartridge that started with a .4, and that felt about right.

Utah thanks!

It's funny...seems like you shoot them, they grunt,twirl their tail.....and run off. Like you whacked them with a fly swatter.

I hear you on the 416 and that's the advice from friends who have BTDT; but it MUST be the 375 for me....I cannot handle bigger anymore.

I had a neighbor get into a "rodeo" with a black angus once. Why he was trying to put it down, I don't recall. But when it was all said and done several 12 ga slugs and sections of fence were the cost. I imagine their wild counterparts would be even more resistant.

Bob, are thinking of hunting Africa? You should!

I don't think there's a lot of real difference between a 416 and a 375, and a lot of PH's and experts in the field say so as well. Both are considered medium bores in Africa. Until you get into the big .45 calibers and above, you aren't really dealing with a true "stopping" rifle/caliber. And if your rifle isn't in the stopping class, you might as well stay with a comfortable shooter like a 375 rather than buying a 416, which will only punish you more with minimal increase in terminal authority.

If you read books and articles by people like Craig Boddington, whose job is to sell as much stuff for as many manufacturers as possible in the shortest possible time, of course they will endorse any caliber as being desirable. But the fellows who had to (or still have to) limit their rifle battery to what they can carry for days/weeks in the bush, you learn quickly that they will carry all manner of rifles for hunting, but for stopping DG they seem to gravitate to the biggest rifle they can handle. I just finished reading Ian Nyschens' book on elephant hunting, and have read the full works of John Taylor, and many others; these guys didn't mess around with a medium bore rifle when they knew they'd be fighting for their lives against elephant and buff.

Because, as you say, these critters appear to be hard to stop.

My one and only buffalo exhibited impressive determination to not shuffle off his mortal coil after I put a 300 gr A-frame through both atria of his heart, essentially cutting off all blood supply to his ventricles. He still managed to run 75 yards, fight off another bull that was trying to gore him, and still didn't fall down for a good 45 seconds. When he finally did fall down, he continued to toss and mutter for a good 5 minutes before he let out his "death bellow". My PH, who estimates he's stopped over 100 buffalo charges in his career, had his Rigby 470 double up and ready to follow up my shot in case the buff sussed us out and charged.

Tough critters. As Nyschens says, "It's hard to believe he [Cape Buffalo] is a member of the bovine family."

Let me in on the enabling.......come on Bob you tightasss, turn loose of some of that cheddar and get on over there!

Bob,

What DocRocket posted is true--but mostly about previous generations of hunters. I've talked to a bunch of PH's about buffalo rifles, and not just those I've hunted with, and the majority think the .375 is just perfect. In fact many use it for their personal buffalo hunting, and the PH I know best, who recently retired at 65, often used his own .375 when guiding buffalo hunters (though he preferred his .458 Lott when guiding elephant hunters). As he noted, this frequently resulted in him being out-gunned by his own clients--but he also had to follow up an finish a number of buffalo shot by those bigger rifles.

The reason for all this, of course, is better bullets, which have improved enormously since the days of Taylor and Nyschens. Back then many hunters preferred solids in the .375 for buffalo hunting, because "softs" weren't reliable penetrators. Today a bunch of .375 expanding bullets work very well on Cape buffalo.

I don't think that pound for pound African game is any tougher than anything else. Cape buffalo are probably no harder to kill than moose, bison, or eland. What is different, however, is what they do if they are wounded. As for lion, there are no comparable carnivores you can hunt. That said, a lion weighs less than an elk and, like all cats, its nervous system is sensitive to high velocities.

I think much of the "mystique" comes from American hunters procuring a heavy rifle that they can't really shoot well, and not practicing very much, subsequently wounding the game. They would be better off with something lighter. I have killed one lion, with a .375 through the heart. It ran about 40 yards and dropped dead. It would not have mattered if I'd used a .300 magnum with 180 grain bullets, which, incidentally, is legal on lion in Zimbabwe.

I have shot two elephants (body shots), two Cape buffalo, and two hippos, one each with a .375 and a .458. If you aim for the right place and hit it, there is no difference I could notice based on my limited experience.

It is said that Jack Lott came up with the .458 Lott after firing a lot of shots with a .458 Winchester into a buffalo without killing it. The problem was not a lack of power. The problem was that Lott was a lousy shot.

Doc: Great story! Hard to believe you can hit them that well and they manage to keep it together.


John: I have all the parts sitting here ready to ship to Gene for a 375. That's how I will roll mostly due to familiarity. Seems it's enough with good bullets and I will get busy on that as well.

I know there are a lot of experienced guys who say the 416's draw more reaction but I have been shooting a 375 for 30 years and really do not want to swap calibers now. 375 it is!


JG: Yeah I need to loosen up the chedda. i will admit to a degree of ambivalence about going but decided I want to do it.

Which I announced the other night and my daughter chimed in and said..."I'm going!"

Next day my son called my wife and said.."They aren't going without me!"

So there we go.....looks like the clan will be coming along LOL!

i agree Bob. If you love to hunt Africa is the Super Bowl

Heres a frinstance for you Bob. My pard on a buffalo hunt in Zim shot his bull in the heart with a .375 300 Gr. Swift A frame.

Switched off guns, as his tracker was carrying his .458 Lott....



Shot it in the heart with that too.



Buff still on its feet, so the PH shoots it ( in the heart) with his .500 double.



Needless to say it all worked, but the boys took the heart and hung it up in camp, the three holes looking for all the world like a bowling ball.




My buffalo caught a .375 Swift A frame in the heart, ran 100 yards, then caught three quick 300 grain Monolithic Solids, and one solid from my PHs .460 Wby....all aimed for bone, but the bastid kept bouncing back up like a rubber ball....



After this rapid fire solid action, he was convinced, and caught one more in the spine from 6 ft. as 'insurance'...



Good times!

Sam I know you been there. I kept expecting to see you in the videos....



Ingwe: That's unbelievable! What are those hearts made of? Truck tire rubber ? Sees you can't destroy them.

Craig Boddington has shot a pile of buffalo, and after a while wrote that he found the standard behind-the-shoulder, double-lung shot used on deer as effective as any. In fact he's killed several with a 300-grain .375 Sierra GameKing, placed just behind the shoulder, just like most hunters would shoot a whitetail. And no, he did not write that to promote Sierras as the perfect buffalo bullet.

But many PH's still suggest a low "shoulder" shot, to break the big bones, which usually means a heart shot--but I suspect that's a holdover from the days when solids were commonly advised: Breaking bones meant a more inside damage, due to "bone shrapnel."

But today's deep-penetrating expanding bullets make a big hole through both lungs, and kill pretty quickly. However, that's only if, (as an old elk hunter once advised) you "give them time to die." Buffalo are big animals, and like elk and, especiallu, moose it takes a while for the lungs to fill and collapse.

The tendency is to shoot any buffalo as long as it's standing, which is smart. But a second shot (or third, fourth, etc.) tends to get them moving again.

The first bullet I ever fired into a buffalo was a .375, 300-grain Fail Safe, a bullet that expanded and penetrated exactly like a Barnes TSX. I aimed at the shoulder, but the buffalo stepped forward at the shot so the bullet landed just behind the shoulder. The PH and I shot three more rounds, but the bullet that did the job was the first Fail fafe, which left an exit hole the size of my fist. That bull went around 60 yards before stopping and, a few second later, collapsing.

Shoot that 375! I shot one with a 416 Rigby and one with a 9,3X74R. Both shots were quartering and through front shoulders, then on into the heart.

Both animals turned and made the Classic hop as they headed away. Both dropped about 100 yards from where they were shot.

The third one I shot was another hunter's gut shot bull that had taken six more hits with a 9.3 and a 416 Rem, the hunter's gun and PH's gun respectively. I finished it at close quarters with a 416 high spine shot.

If I were to do it again I would use my fine old FN/Sako chambered to 375 Wby, not because the Wby chambering has any advantage but because I love the rifle.

I went with the older conventional wisdom of a solid, followed with softs at the behest of the PH. Knowing what I now know, and with the many great bullets we now have, I would have several softs on top and the solid third down.

You owe yourself a cape buffalo hunt. No two are the same.

But ... your sig line says you have a 7 Mag ...

John/Luv2: Looks like anything else...hit through the lungs they will make tracks but are safely "dead".

Looks like a really fun and exciting hunt!

I have not shot a buff, YET!!

You can hunt all of North America with a 30'06,; you don't NEED a 338 to shoot elk, but lots of people do.

You don't NEED a 416 to hunt Africa but lots of people do.

Take the 375, it's been doing the job for 105 years???
The bullets are better than back in the day, recoil isn't too bad, trajectory is certainly acceptable and usable...

Hancock: Great cartridge....one of my favorites!

I've had this hanging around a couple of years now. Time to get it ready to go!

i agree Bob. If you love to hunt Africa is the Super Bowl[/quote]


Yes, it truly is.....

Good to see you are heading over Bob. I will be in Zim late next year chasing buffalo and sable with my 416 M70.

I feel fortunate to have made two safaris, with my son, to Africa. One, a plains game hunt in RSA, in 2008, and two was to Zim, in 2011 for a "poor man's" DG hunt. On the second trip, we took two cow cape buffs, a tuskless cow ele, and a hippo. Three of the four were one shot kills, with a pair of Ruger No. 1s in 375 H&H mag. I know I'll never be able to go back, but for those of you who are still thinking about it, just GO! In this crazy world, you may not be able to hunt anywhere in Africa, in a few more years.....


maddog

Talus I have a pre 64 FW 30/06,and that will be my Light Rifle if I go.



Ed those M70 416's are neat rifles. I recall yours.

Bob, if you are going to Africa, prepare to have your life changed....

Ingwe: Oh gee thanks! Just what I need. It might be too late for that LOL!

But I can see getting over there and wanting to hunt till you drop. It looks really nice, food looks great,and it seems you are always looking a some kind of animals.

I could get used to it!

Indeed, Bob!

Here's a pic of the heart of my buff taken immediately upon removing it from the chest. The wound you see here was entirely due to the bullet (300 gr Swift A-Frame), the skinner's 8-inch knife is merely shown for scale.



This bullet shattered the near shoulder blade (scapula), passed through the chest cavity and into the far shoulder, where it was found under the hide. This is about as well as you can hit an animal in the chest, and he still lived 6-8 minutes. Plenty of time for a "dead" buffalo to do a tapdance on your head if he takes a notion to do so.

Craig has a reputation for promoting all kinds of equipment, bullets, rifles, etc, which I alluded to in my earlier post, but that isn't a knock on him. The man hunts with the products he promotes, it is clear. He does promote Swift A-frame bullets in his buffalo videos, but he also gives credit to Sierra, Barnes, and Woodleigh bullets in various places.



I have no doubt that the double-lung shot will work very well on buffalo. Even Jack O'Connor believed in the double-lung shot on anything, including elephant.

I find it interesting that Boddington has come around to lung shots, after all the effort he put into delineating the heart shot in his book and videos on buffalo. FWIW, I devoured his book & video, as well as Kevin Robertson's book, in preparing for my safari.

Doc: Wow...great photo. Picture worth a thousand words.

That seems to be a fair amount of damage. I have never used them but am impressed with your description of the performance of the 300 Aframe. I have herd that from more than one source.

Thanks and keep it coming! Love these autopsy reports!

Break bone and mobility on the way to the vitals.

jorg: How I have always rolled.....once I learned that's the way to roll.

Sound advice. TX.

Allen Day told me that before my first trip to Africa and at least in my experience, he was spot on. I used to go for the double lung shot on game and yes they all died, but they ran a ways. When I switched to the central shoulder shot, animals if they ran, didn't go very far.

I think Allan knew what he was talking about.

What country are you thinking of hunting Bob?

Not trying to take away anything from African game, the lore is there.

But I used to bowhunt a LOT. I"ve seen quite a few deer with an broadhead holes through the heart that have made 300 plus yards of as the crow flies distances. Generally through the lower chambers instead of uppers.

I've seen MORE deer with holes through the basic middle of BOTH lungs that were alive 3 hours plus later.

I've got a bit of experience with archery... I don't shoot dull heads. I know a bit about what I'm doing...

That said I have about zero desire for Africa, but funny, I have a desire for a kudu and I don't care how I take him. But a nice pretty hide, and representative but not huge horns.
I also have a desire for a buff. Any buff. But only with a bow.

RE other comments on recoil, I could find almost no difference between a 375 HH and a 416 Rem Mag years ago.. I'm after a 416 or 458/458 Lott to have handy in AK in the coming years... but have not been serious about the look. I don't think you can get to big really on dangerous stuff, as long as you can shoot them well enough.

Animals, and I have no clue why from one to another... there is always that how scared and did they just breathe thing thats possible, but they tend at times to live a LOT longer than folks think. Being a bowhunter I've seen a LOT of stuff die up close and personal since there is no boom to frighten em etc.... they have no clue you are there, they don't go far, sometimes coming back to you rather than other direction.... Animals are flat tough at times.

Then you see someone gut shoot one with a rifle and it falls over never to twitch again....

I often wonder in Africa if its not due to hunting on foot and the fact that the animals have to know you are there when they are in big herds. But I've never been. Hvae no clue, maybe thats not the clue at all. Maybe most animals never have a clue a human is close when they shoot.

Some folks get a bit hung up on things not falling when the gun goes boom.... a bit to hung up IMHO. I don't even think those quicker to fall die quicker, they are just immobilized quicker and are still in the process of dying while all the high fives and such are going on... And why in some cases with ANY animal, while the backslapping is going, from a DRT... the DRT gets up and goes away with a non vital high shot....

If you hunt in places where an animal can run 200 yards before it dies, and there are inaccessible-to-you locations within that radius, lung shots are less likely to put meat in your freezer and horns on your wall than shoulder-heart shots, in my experience.

And this is a strong argument for Jorge's "break down bone on the way to the heart" position.

Particularly so if the beast you've just shot has a reputation for belligerence whose propensity when injured is to attack the creature that caused its injury, rather than just running away.

Jeff I have seen heart shot stuff go quite a distance; lung shot, too....sort of a fact of life.

Shot three buffs. One with a .375 and two with 458 Lott. Didn't notice much difference, other than the distance they can run with a heart shot out is impressive. Whatever you are shooting them with is far more adequate than being in the living room over here talking about it. The best advice is practice and just go. Never regret that.

Bob, I am interested in why you are taking your 06 fwt instead of a 270?

Pat I have a perfectly good pre 64 FW 30/06 here that has never been hunted.

And a good supply of 165 gr Bitterroots.

It's been awhile since I hunted with the 30/06 and would just like to bring that rifle.

From my experience with non African game, I have one train of thought. If it has to be DRT for whatever reason, the target is the brain. NOthing else and you better hit it.

Breaking bones even on deer does not render them immobile, only the CNS does that. Spine is too small... brain is the target.

I"ve often wondered WHY shoot an elephant for the brain but nothing else?

Let me add, on precision shots, and all shots for that matter, folks get to hung up, IMHO again, on the fact taht if the PH or guide says you can shoot that animal, they feel its the PH or guide saying you HAVE to shoot that animal and NOW...

The ability to know when and where you can and should shoot is much more important.

I've passed shots on larger animals than I"ve ever seen, because I had not a good shot. OTOH I"ve shot game where I had a good shot a lot farther than most ever will.

The ability to know when and when not to, is very important.

And teh guide should never be saying... hurry he's getting away... or he's going to run....

elkhunter: SA and Namib for plains game.

Check references and make sure you go with a very reputable PH and have a solid contract in place. Trust but verify everything. Have fun; it will be great. For buff, you're best to target Zim on your journey from SA to Namibia

.. and more reason to bring it I can not think of.

:-)

To the rifle loon happiness is 'choice contentedness'.

Ready: Exactly.

Most elephants are taken with heart/lung shots and not brain shots. A brain shot is the preferred target, but harder to hit. Also, elephants are quite easily immobilized with a shot to the pelvic girdle or rear leg bone. As to DRT and the brain, I also have to disagree. Virtually all of the deer (for example), that I've taken with a 257 Weatherby and shoulder shots, have been DRT. In my view the secret is a mix of penetration, shot placement and velocity.

I think the higher shoulder shot often is close enough that shrapnel, or pieces of bone break the spine, and if it doesn't it gets both lungs. I have more DRT than with typical lung shots.

I have taken a handful of Cape and NW Red Buffalo, maybe a dozen in total. I've shot them with .450/00. and the 9.3 x62, I've brained them 8mm Mag, dropped one on the run with a .338, and even used a handgun with the 9.3 JDJ. My hunting mates have used .375, .416, and .458s.

I've found a few things to be true.

- Premium expanding bullets are more effectiv than solids in rendering a quick take down.

- a well placed shot on an undisturbed buffalo takes them without drama or complication. A shoulder/lung shot puts them down usually within yards.

- Botch your first shot and they become near bullet proof and you must hit the central nervous system to bring them down quick.

Virtually is the key word there. My 257 Wtby experience mostly mirrors yours with deer/pigs other than I"m not blowing the shoulders or such apart rather simply punching ribs/lungs or heart. Instead of DRT, we get a 30-50 foot run generally. Not enough to worry about. I can see hitting bone, but regardless, virtually is not the same as always.

I'd think, but don't know, that always would be the thing you look for on dangerous game. Rather than virtually.

RE pelvic bone on elephants, thats a preferred shot too? I had not read that. Generally I"ve read very little, but almost all old writings, about braining elephants rather than chest shooting them.

No, the preferred shot is the heart/lung on elephant, mainly because clients are not that proficient on front end brain shots. Side brains are easier, as the ear gives you a decent aimpoint. But they DO run, hence the pelvic or rear leg bone to keep them from running, particularly if close to a concession border.

On buffalo, lion, leopard and indeed everything else, If you shoot the shoulder, you WILL get the lungs and top of the heart. As to "always" on DG, that rates a "DUH". The shoulder shot accomplishes TWO things, punches the heart or lungs area AND degrades mobility, which is sort of important when it comes to DG. A heart lung shot will not.

I learn every day.

RE the DG stuff though not running brain shots on other stuff, (IE I get the elephant stuff, seems lazy that folks don't research and practice but thats another soap box of mine) Why don't you shoot lion/leop/buff etc.. in the head? There is NO issue if you brain those? Again simply the non ability of shooters is my guess? And much larger room for error on a low shoulder shot? Or do you strive for the high one and if you miss top of heart, thats fine, because the chances of damaging the spine are much higher?

I suspect since I was a kid and my mentor taught me brain shots on deer as I grew up, that I"m a bit biased to that shot and how easy it is to locate the brain and that you either know you'll make the shot or you pass it up for the next shot.

I've taken Cape buffalo with a frontal brain shot, but it's not a big target - between the eyes and under the boss. It worked for me once, but once was enough. Botch that and you have 1600+ pounds of trouble after you.

As for cats, braining them is a bit more tricky. A frontal shot has been known to fail because of the flat slope of the skull has been known to deflect a bullet without penetration. Cats, especially leopards on bait, move around and don't stay still for you to concentrate - often in failing light - on a plum sized target. Add to the equation that a head shot jacks up your trophy.

I took my elephant with the classic heart shot. He presented broadside, and I was confident in the shot. A right and left from my double, and he was down in 50 yards.

I've been a fan of the high shoulder shot. It takes out the lungs and stuns the central nervous system for down on the spot results. If you shoot high, you severe the spine, go low and get the heart.

Truth is Grandad was probably right when he told me to shoot everything slightly behind the shoulder braodside or center of the chest looking at you. Can't really go wrong there.

And I've always been a fan of A-FRames.....

AFRAME FAILURE.

Read the thread. I'd sure like to know more about the hunt, the brush, the shot, but shows nothing is foolproof.

I've had some superb results with the RWS H-Mantle. I wish I could still find them.

"Months of the Sun"? Great read! I know several old Rhodesians that knew Nyschens and all said he was one peculiar dude. You'd have to be to spend that much time in the bush. Pondoro's books are some of my favorite reads.

It's an old thread as you can see, but the key is velocity. it certainly demonstrates if you are a speed freak, monos are the way to go...

mmm....never seen one mashed flat like that.

Jorg how about Northfork? Solid base and all that?

The Barnes 270 TSX? Read many good reports on those?

Bob: Truth be told, even though I've mostly transitioned to the TTSXs, the old fart in me still prefers copper and lead. When my best friend and I went for buffalo (he with a 375 and I used a 416 Rigby), I loaded both with A Frames with great results, same for a bunch of PGs where I also used Partitions in my 300 Weatherby, all with great results.What drove me to the TTSXs, was the overwhelming conversion by experienced African and Big Game hunters to them, that and another friend who really helped me with my first safari, experienced a failure with a Partition (not enough penetration) out of his 375 on Buffalo. On the North Forks, even though I've taken no game with them, everyone I know that uses them loves them, including a very experienced and mutual friend John S. My 450NE double LOVES them in both softs and solids and if I ever get back to Africa I will give them a try. Incidentally, for my upcoming elk hunt, even though I have 180 TTSXs loaded up in both my 300 Weatherby and H&H, I just purchased some North Forks and will try them out this week. Lastly, on the 270 TSX, both Randy and Connie Brooks prefer them to the 300 grainer-for buffalo- and the same for the 350 v the 400 on the 416. jorge

Well hell yeah, because NOBODY has ever posted a pic of a Barnes that didn't expand...

And your point is? If a bullet flattens out and fails to penetrate, the animal may be lost or in the case of dangerous game, only serve to turn a hunt into a dangerous situation. In contrast if a Barnes fails to expand (highly unlikely with the bigger bores) it still punches through and makes TWO holes, still leading to bleeding out and death. But quick, go roust the other Barnes haters....

I've shot a grand total of two buffalo - both with a 300gr Nosler Partition for the 1st shot and the rounds in the magazine were loaded with 300gr solids.

The first buffalo was shot at less than 40 yards facing me with his head up and the bullet struck at the junction where the neck joined the body. When the bullet hit his heads jerked higher and did his rear legs -- same moves used by rodeo bulls. He hid the ground hard and after 15 or 20 seconds he gave the death bellow. The bullet, which the skinner found and gave to me, had broken the neck where it dips down and then continued toward taking the heart. I'never seen anything hit the so fast or so hard.

The 2nd was a double lung shot taken at about the same distance. On impact the buffalo threw up his head spun away and ran about 29 yards and hit the ground dead.

I've only ever had two animals run very far = the first was a large zebra stallion that took two solid hits from the same .375 I used on the buffalo - the first shot was a running broadside at 100+ yards that was a solid broadside hit that rolled him over but he barely broke stride and the 2nd shot placed just behid the shoulder staggered him until we ealked up and I put a finishing shot into his neck.

The hardest to bring down from my limited experience was a large sable bull - 4 shots starting at a bit past 150 yards - the first one standing entered in front of his right hip and exited behind his left shoulder and knocked him to the ground - the next 3 shots were running and each was a solid hit that traveled the length of the body. I had to reload between shots and was reloading a 2nd time when the PH ran up and finished him off --- he gotten back on his feet and was trying to catch up with the herd.

I'm a real fan of North Forks. Two 300 grain NF soft points (not even the stronger cup point) I recovered from a buffalo were perfectly mushroomed and weighed in excess of 290 grains. One had broken the buff's spine and I could not tell the difference between it and another that had penetrated an impala stem to stern. I used their solids on elephant, hippo, and follow ons for buffalo.

As for shooting cats in the head, the chest is a much easier target and skull measurements are how trophies are judged. Besides, the skulls look cool if they're not blown to bits.

I watched a Barnes hit a whitetail in the ribs and then deflect up and exit out the neck. Was that due to it not expanding? The world will never know.

Yes the animal was obviously recovered. But I still consider it a failure. If that bullet had picked a different angle to go the buck might have ran off.

I'm not a Barnes hater. If I was, I wouldn't be shooting them in several rifles. I just don't buy into the whole thing about them being the worlds greatest bullet.

I don't either, and in fact most of the game I've ever taken has not been with either the TSX or the TTSX. I started using them for two reasons, they are the most consistently accurate hunting bullet I've ever uses (with the Partition on the other side of the spectrum), and lots and I mean lots of folks I know and respect, with literally hundreds of species taken, almost all swear by the TSX/TTSXs.
My 300 Weatherby and H&H, for example, like both the NPs (and I took at least a half dozen animals in Africa with them) and the TTSXs, but in contrast, my 375, 257 and 7mmWeatherby do not shoot them well.
So I go by either personal experience of advice from folks I know and trust. North Forks are also superb bullets according to all my friends who use them and they have indeed been accurate in the calibers I've used, so I would love to try them someday. Accuracy and consistent performance is what I look for, particularly on high dollar hunts, and in my observation, the Barnes' have proven to be the best.

Jorge,

It is a mystery why some rifles love NPT's, other don't. Same with the TSX/TTSX; some like'em, some don't.

I've heard it postulated that the relatively open base on the NPT can spread somewhat, expanding to obdurate into a slightly oversized bore; better engagement of bullet with rifling, better accuracy.

Not sure if anyone really knows, but it has and is being observed. The Barnes are very uniform and can be extremely accurate. I find that with Cutting Edge copper bullets, similar results with GMX and E-Tips.

Do you find mono's to be more consistently accurate than NPT's, or said another way, do more rifles across the board perform better with mono's than NPT's?

I guess that's what makes Loony stuff so loony (and interesting)...

DF

DF: I've only tried T/TTSXs and CBEs (in my 450 NE only) and I've found the Barnes' to be consistently more accurate than any other bullet in just about every caliber I've tried.

I am truly a Barnes fan, but it was strongly suggested to me that I consider Swift A-Frame for my 2015 Cape Buffalo hunt in the Free State of the RSA.

I was carrying a Dakota Model 76 in .416 Rigby with 400 gr A-Frame bullets.

The initial shot dropped the buffalo in its tracks, but I "paid the insurance" with another shot to the heart as it was lying there.



The bullet was recovered during the skinning process against the off side hide. The 400 gr A-Frame retained over 390 gr of its original weight.



It was a high shoulder shot, but it worked for me.

donsm70

Don: That is exactly the same combo I used on buffalo. My friend used a 375, also with A Frames. That is what surprised me about the link I posted, although the impact velocity explains the failure and that is where the Barnes shines. I think anyway.

Any thoughts on 250gr TTSX for buffalo?

It'll kill 'em.

The 270 TSX has such a following, I guess the newer 250 TTSX is the step child.

To me, the 250 TTSX makes a lot of sense, better B.C. for a long shot and classic Barnes penetration.

I'd have to give it a serious look if going for buf. I've read some accounts claiming the 270 TSX is more accurate. I'm gonna try them both pretty soon and we'll see what my M-70 has to say about it.

DF

Huh?

B.C.'s: 250 TTSX is .424; 270 TSX is .326.

Barnes tops the 270 TSX at around 2,800+ fps. They don't currently have data for the 250 TTSX on their web site.

Surely a 250 will fly a bit faster than a 270 out of the same gun.

Higher velocity + higher B.C.'s = flatter trajectory. Both will penetrate and kill stuff.

Just saying.

DF

I'm sitting at 135 buffalo now, spread across 3 continents. Most were taken with a .458, but plenty were with the .375 and some with the .416, .450 and some 30 cals as well.

If there's a better buffalo bullet than the A-Frame I sure don't know what it is. The Barnes is OK, and a darn sight better than many but its no A-Frame. Solids suck in general.

Damn what a beautiful ole hard bossed bull, Bob, what Hatari says would ring true with me, a 375 or 416 with three or four hundred gr Swift A Frames would be hard to beat imho.

That's really interesting....

ever try the woodleigh? just out of curiosity.

Gunner that IS a beautiful old bull!

They are impressive animals.

Just the Hydro solid on buffalo. Didn't like it, but it's probably fine for what solids are good for; almost nothing.

Used a pile of Woodleigh 180s in the 30-06 at moderate range, they are a very good bullet. Much prefer them to the TSX.

M70Guy: You seem to prefer the tougher heavy bonded bullets over the monos. How come?

They hit visibly harder on everything, rip bigger wound channels and yet always seem to have enough penetration. Many mono hit animals don't even look hit.

Thanks!

Some A-frames covered from water buffalo, which are considerably larger than the African. You'll notice the .375s have a distinctive double bulge from the higher velocity, while the .458s are straight sided from a 2200 fps launch. At Lott speed they also start the double bulge. The lone solid entered beside the tail and stopped in the bottom lip.

Bullet picking gets boring with A-Frames. They are boringly predictable, you've seen one you've seen them all.

sounds and looks like a set of barnes X type bullets. Boringly the same results round after round after round.

That said, I've nothing against A frames either, just that I prefer the extra bit of insurance that a Barnes gives me.

I get all that but I thought you (we?) were talking buffalo where a 100 yard shot is long?

Sure enough Bob, they have my undying respect.

I understand.

I'm not a buf hunter, probably never will be.

Just Loony stuff, but one would have to show that the 270 TSX will out penetrate the 250 TTSX, and it may, to make a case for it over the 250. There must be a trade off somewhere between the extra few ft. per second and 20 extra grains of bullet.

If I was facing a buf, I may go with the 300 gr. A-Frame as suggested by another contributor. I've read some accounts on .375 300 gr. NPT performance to suggest that the A-Frame may be the best of that type bullet.

The 250 TTSX should be a good choice for all around use, not excluding a buf.

Just thinking out loud...

DF

Thanks DF and MD,

I have a pile of the 250's, but was reading Robertson and he was pretty high on the 350 for buff out of the 375. I'm thinking of a buff hunt and may have opportunity to go sooner than I thought I might. Just wondering if maybe I should try the heavy heavy. I suppose I'm thinking too hard and should just go with the 270 TSX or 300 A-Frame...just thinking aloud. Cool thread guys. I love this stuff.

I'm sort of incapacitated right now so have been watching a LOT of African hunting videos for want of anything better to do.

Seems to me an awful lot of guys are using 375's and 416's to shoot EVERYTHING. I mean I don't think I've seen light rifle in use yet. It all seems like 375....375....375 LOL!

Here you go Bob,the smallest and largest I killed in Africa with a lowly .30/06 and 180 gr Nosler Partitions.

Steinbok.


Zebra.

In 2002 I took a .30-06 (and a Remington 700 at that) with a 3-9x scope and 180-grain Partition handloads to South Africa, just because I wanted to demonstrate what a plain-vanilla combination like that would do. It worked fine, of course, including dropping a big kudu at around 350 yards.

Of course, at the last minute a bullet company asked me to fiueld-test a new one, so I had to take another rifle--but a spare can come in handy on a long trip. This time it did, because a hunting partner's rifles never did show up in Johannesburg until a week after we headed dome. But the .30-06 worked fine on a bunch of animals throughout the two-week safari.