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I originally bought my 28 to somewhat experiment with. But it is a boat anchor compared to the 19. And the atvantage of the 19 is being able to hot load to some extent the 38special without stressing anything. I'm kind of jacking around with this caliber, given i like 41 and 44, and 45 much better.


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i like that exension you put on the back of your house, got to start on something similar on mine for a couple of pet pigmy goats.


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Originally Posted by RoninPhx
I originally bought my 28 to somewhat experiment with. But it is a boat anchor compared to the 19. And the atvantage of the 19 is being able to hot load to some extent the 38special without stressing anything. I'm kind of jacking around with this caliber, given i like 41 and 44, and 45 much better.


You hit the nail on the head with all of that. You have discovered like many of us have, that cartridges whose caliber begins with a four can do everything the 9mm/38 special/.357 magnum can do and then some. Frankly, although I have the others and have cast, loaded, and shot them for many years, all I use very much now is a 44 special running between 850 and 1000 FPS.

Last edited by BobWills; 05/29/16.

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Originally Posted by RoninPhx
i like that exension you put on the back of your house, got to start on something similar on mine for a couple of pet pigmy goats.


If you are going to do that, you might want to consider using a roofing material that will let light in under the shed so you can see under there. I've got stacked fire wood under mine and the copperheads and scorpians just LOVE to get in that wood so I need to be able to see the suckers. In the 30 years I've been here, I've been bitten twice by copperheads out there and it is no fun.

Metal roofing places have pannels of strong material they use for sky lights that will withstand hail stones and falling limbs and still let in light. The clear PVC stuff I got from Home Depot lets in a lot of light, but it isn't very strong. If what I used gives me any more problems, I'll take it off and install some of those heavier grade roofing pannels and I should have done that to start with. But I was already at Home Depot to get other stuff, so I thought I'd try it. I did and I should have gone with what I know works and will last.

You have pigmy goats? I have these dern whitetail deer and even though I have a 7 foot tall black wire fence around the place, every now and then one gets in here and eats a few hundred dollars worth of plants over night. A dang deer is the first cousin to a goat. The only thing in the yard they will not eat is the rocks.

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I'm pretty sure Skeeter's load was 7.5 grains of Unique.

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I've been bitten twice by copperheads out there and it is no fun.


Those things are so inconvenient.

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Originally Posted by Creeker
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I've been bitten twice by copperheads out there and it is no fun.


Those things are so inconvenient.


Yep. I'll bet living in West Virginia you know all about them because you should have plenty of them up there. They seem to like the mountains and hilly or rocky areas and wood piles for some reason. I've killed only maybe a dozen rattle snakes in the yard in the 30 years I've lived here, but I kill that many copperheads every year. They like to get in the garage under or behind things and especiaslly in my wood supply. The rattlers don't come up close to the house like the copperheads do. Two years ago, a man fixing one of my heat pumps was also bitten by a copperhead and almost lost his right hand because of it and that happened after I had warned him to watch out for the copperheads.

But nobody ever said is is easy being a Renaissance mountain man and I suspect you know a lot about that too. I keep telling these flat landers who move up here that gravity is three times stronger up here on the mountain as down below. But it keeps the tourist away and the yuppies last about one year and then they sell out and move down the mountain to the golf course or around one of the lakes. That leaves only we custy old crumudgeons up here on the mountain and that is the way I like it, copperheads and all.

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When I look off the upper deck, I don't see any yuppies down there anywhere. In fact, I don't see anybody down there because there isn't anyone for a quarter mile.


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Originally Posted by mathman
I'm pretty sure Skeeter's load was 7.5 grains of Unique.


I shot 7 grains of Unique behind #358429 in a magnum case and it was all a model 19 Smith could stand. It resulted in extremely flattened primers and cratered firing pin hits with breech face imprints in the brass and hard case extraction from the cylinder. So hard in fact, that I had to bump the extractor rod on the bench top to get them out. My loading note book remarks say DO NOT DUPLICATE!!! I didn't load any more of those.

If you are interested, here are his actual loads. Click here -->> http://www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm

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I only have these two of his books because as far as I know, these are the only two that he wrote. They are listed for sale on Amazon for about $130.00 dollars each for new hard backs. I don't remember what I paid for these, but they were expensive even 25 years ago.

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I was responding to a quote of 8.5 grains under a Keith in a 44 Special.

Originally Posted by RoninPhx
i did 12grains of 2400 and crimping in the crimp groove.per a reloading manual it showed a min. load of 9.7grains of 2400 for 879fpsm and max of 15.5grains of 2400 for 1242fps. that same book showed crimping at 1.553 which is at the top of the driving band.
i would have to look at the length of the barrel they were using. They do like those ten inch barrels for this stuff.
until i shoot it i am guessing at about 1000fps or so. I did one bullet with the same load crimping to the top of that band, gonna save it to go through the chrony. I would suspect that pressure would be lower seating the bullet to the top of the band. Which is where the chrony comes in, at 12grains i will be curious to see what it gets up to. I also loaded 12grains of 2400 in a 38special and crimped to the crimp groove. Which is close to duplicating your load.
I only have a little hesitation in using these in a 19, but it is not as stout as a 27/28. Matter of fact i have the load using the crimp groove in a two inch 19 right now. which should reduce pressure as the bullet is sticking out.
Long about way of saying i was thinking similar to your thinking i don't know a reason other than a 27/28 will take more abuse than the k frames. but even lyman's reloading manual showed crimping in the magnum to the top of the band and they made the mold and wrote the manual.
I have put thousands of rounds through a four inch 19 since the mid 70's but i bet less than a box of magnums.
I probably wont make many more for use in a magnum case, the 358561 bullet is only about ten grains different, and it impressed the snot out of me breaking that river rock i was shooting with it.
that 358156 has the two crimp grooves for use in either magnum or special casings, so i am pretty sure the guys fooling with the 38/44's were following similar thinking, hotrodding the special to get into magnum territory.
Interesting enough, some years back in talking to this FBI guy he showed me a ankle gun he was packing in 9mm, it was loaded with a round pushing a 115gr bullet at about 1300fps. I ended up buying some with warnings all over the box above saami specs. Shot some too with no bad things, but i am sure a steady diet would advance wear the gun.
and probably running up 38special into magnum territory in a non N frame would do the same thing in time.
another similar thing was i loaded some "skeeter" loads for 44special recently at I think it was 8.5grains of unique. Which is up there in current manuals. But he shot it. And i don't anticipate any problems using it.

I think this is pretty much it. . "so I never saw the need to use a magnum case and crimp on the driving band."

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Well I completely missed that part. It's difficult sometimes to keep up with the discussion because we are talking back and forth about different things and Ron is so conversant with this stuff it just comes off the top of his head so easy and he can switch back and forth between cartridges and bullets and powders and guns. It makes for good discussions, but it can lead to me missing some of those changes. And I am suspicious of a man who keeps goats for pets anyway. grin grin Why can't he have a labador like any normal person??? Well okay. So he ain't normal, but we all benefit because he is sorta into this reloading stuff.


No harm done. The Skeeter books are still a good read. I sure wish he could have written more but like Bill Jordan said, you have to stop before you get yourself into trouble telling about what you did back then.

Last edited by BobWills; 05/30/16.

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Originally Posted by mathman
I'm pretty sure Skeeter's load was 7.5 grains of Unique.


looking back at my original post, that was 8.5gr of unique for a 44special using 429421.
as in second table or category two 22000psi or less, hand loader,36 brian pearce article on loading for 44special.
it actually started at 7.5 and went to 8.5grains.
the 22000psi category included colt single action army, new frontiersaa, charter arms bulldog, usaa imade in the u.s.
i probably should have called it a pearce load for certain revolvers. He had a categoy III which was warmer still 25000psi and under.
I have a n frame conversion from 28 to a 44special, i refer to it as a skeeter gun. and it has the 1950 44special barrel on it.
you are entirely right on 7.5grains.



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I have enjoyed following this subject but found out the hard way what you guys are talking about. I cast a same style bullet and loaded some 45 Colt loads for my nephew. The work fine in my Blackhawk but are to long for his Italian model. Now I have to pull them, recast, and reload them or just shoot them in my Ruger then load some more for him.


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scott to go further off topic as i usually do, a lot of this isn't set and dry.
I have had a problem for a long time producing 38special that will fit in my daughters ladysmith. It was only when i took the expander/decapper pin out of a die, and used that to squeeze down the round i started to get a glimmer.
I got to looking through my messy stash of dies and realized i had 4sets of rcbs 38special/357 dies. They look the same but not the same. I was also using brass that had been sized and primed, but not belled or loaded, done my a deceased friend of mine back in the 60's. I don't think he had the dies set quite right.
I am still screwing around with that idea of a 200grain or larger bullet at about 1000fps.
Along with what i wrote above, i loaded up some rounds of 38.40 today, starline brass, and a 180grain bullet, non gas checked.
I have always heard that 38.40 is difficult to reload, no it's not but it does have its issues. The mouth is pretty thin and if you don't have it lined up right when seating, you will squash them on the mouth with very little pressure envolved. I only wrecked one today which is better than last time.
The other thing I habitually forget to do, but it is good to do, is run the completed round in the guns intended for to see if they fit. I have one 41magnum that won't take a long round like a 57 or 58.
now these 38wcf rounds all measured to 1.60 all seated an crimped nice and proper, and i ran them in a cylinder. Wouldn't go in easy on a number of them. Why, just a little dab of lube on the casing or on the side of the bullet. Wiped it off and no issues. when i turned the cylinder over they didn't just fall out, and to give a slight push with a pencil which means that 1.60 oal is really tight in these cylinder bores, like right on the money. as is the diamer of the cylinder holes, hardly any slop.
The cylinder was one ruger cut for me in 38wcf. And they had to be right on the specs, as in little no wiggle room of casing, and so on.
I had that little ladysmith of my daughters checked a couple of times by competent gunsmiths, they both told me it was tight. Which translates that brass being off just a little, fowled up the works. If i load anymore for her, i am going to have to have the revolver.
Try some revovlers that might have three different diameters in the barrel.
oh by the way, that 180grain cast bullet should be flying at about 900to 950fps. One of the guns i will shoot it in was successful in killing a guy on whiskey row in prescott back in the day, and has an inscription inside the grip about two shots killing a grizz in mexico turn of the century. I should bring it to quemato with the period holster, leather cutout for the triggerguard/trigger. It IS a piece of history. the other colt bisley i have in 38wcf was also successfully used by one indian in oklahoma to kill another indian in the 30's. I don't think you need the speed so much, as the mass.

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If Lyman sells an M-die expander in an appropriate size it can mitigate bullet seating problems. Instead of a plain flare expansion of the case mouth it produces a step which will allow finger seating for a little start.

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Originally Posted by mathman
If Lyman sells an M-die expander in an appropriate size it can mitigate bullet seating problems. Instead of a plain flare expansion of the case mouth it produces a step which will allow finger seating for a little start.

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and that would be a good idea too.


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i tend to bell just enough that i can set the bullet in the casing by finger pressure. My issue is me getting them out of line on the way up into the seating die. fat fingers.


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They're also great for straight starting jacketed rifle bullets in bottle neck cases for which a "competition style" support sleeve seating die isn't available. Lowers runout with ordinary dies.

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Originally Posted by Scott F
I have enjoyed following this subject but found out the hard way what you guys are talking about. I cast a same style bullet and loaded some 45 Colt loads for my nephew. The work fine in my Blackhawk but are to long for his Italian model. Now I have to pull them, recast, and reload them or just shoot them in my Ruger then load some more for him.

scott
my worst "issue" was one time having to uncork about 500rounds of m1carbine that i screwed up. I was cussing the whole time for being stupid.


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this stuff can get real fascinating.
a member on this board sent me some projectiles for 41mag, they are almost completely seated in the casing, kind of reminding you of the 7.62mosin revolver round.


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Originally Posted by RoninPhx
this stuff can get real fascinating.


Now that is the truth Ron and I really enjoy all the comments and photos from the different posters. Between all of us, we can keep each other straight and also share some interesting information.

Something that has always facinated me about casting bullets is how different casting methods and techniques can be taylored to match your needs. Those who cast only light weight bullets don't consider the variance in bullet weight because as a percentage of the total weight, those variances don't amount to much, certainly not enough to cause any problems.

But when I was shooting BPCR rifles with bullet weights running 500 grains or more, it became an issue, particularly when those bullets got out there at 800 to 1000 yards at the very end of their rotational stability range and then dropped back through the sonic barrier as they lost velocity and became sub-sonic. That transonic transition from super sonic to sub somic bullet speed causes a lot of problems with bullet stability and accuracy.

Having bullets that weigh the same or very near the same becomes critical to accuracy then because a bullet varience of a half a grain or more in bullet weight makes a big difference when velocity and rotational stability is already compromised and then it hits that transonic range and things don't go very well. At a BPCR match one day a fellow shooter and I were talking and he casually mentioned how he selected the bullets he used in competition and how he cast them using a hand ladle. Heck I hadn't used a hand ladle since I got my first bottom pour pot. But I tried it and was surprised to learn that when I used a hand ladle and cast those big bullets using it instead of a bottom pour pot, that I got more consistant bullet weights even though I was using the exact same metal composition, the same mold, and casting at the same temperature. I never did figure out why, but many BPCR shooters cast their big bullets that way for the same reason.

So a casual remark during the usual shooter talk at a BPCR match improved my over all scores by about 10 percent using that simple technique to cast my bullets. You never know where these gems of wisdom and information are going to come from. They just seem to drop out of the sky every now and then and I am always greatful when they do.

Last edited by BobWills; 05/31/16.

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