Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Rifle recommendation for a newbie that doesn't reload

I have an acquaintance that has come to me for advice, there is his first mistake! But he is the average “joe” hunter. He has killed lots of deer back East and one successful trip out West for elk. He wants to get into long range hunting/shooting. He does not reload and will be limited to factory ammo and he wants the ability to kill elk out to 600yds. My first thoughts are .308; 7 Mag or 270 WSM not in that order just the 3 that come to mine. He does not want to get into custom rifles so he wants a factory production rifle as well. Again not mentioning this as my answer just what comes to mine is for him to get a Tikka in one of the 3 cartridges above and go shoot. Curious as to what you all think?

Proficient shooting at 600 yards = lots of practice.

Lots of practice = lots of factory ammo.

Lots of factory ammo = .30 06

.308 gives less velocity, similar or greater cost for ammo. 7mag or .270 WSM both have substatially higher cost for ammo, more recoil, but slightly better trajectory.

Kimber Montana in .308 or Rem 700 in .308. An RPR in .308 or 6.5 Creed may not be a bad way to go.

Roger that on the 30-06. I guess my nature bias to that cartdige I didn't even consider the factory loading options for the grand 'ol 30-06. My thinking was the .308 has lots of Nato ammo for cheaper trigger time.

Cheap and plentiful ammo isn't the only requirement for a 600 yard hunting cartridge...

What about a 300 win or 300wsm?Pretty much a do all with lots of factory ammo.Mine really likes the 168 Hsm Bergers and their ammo is somewhat affordable.

06 is a solid choice. He Will need a good scope that tracks good and learn how to read the wind and his turrets.
I'm comfortable to 400 yards with my tikka 06.
For me At 500 + yards errors start to magnify and things start to open up . It's a long ways. Requires practice.
I think a magnum would be better for 600+ yards on big animal like elk.

The guy should get over on the classifieds and buy Brad's 308 M70 EW with McMillan stock....pronto....before someone wakes up and grabs it.

Slap on a 6X Super Chicken with MQ reticle., get some good ammo and he should be laying them in at 600 within two range sessions.

Cant think of anything simpler. A 308 will kill an elk at 600 with good placement.

long range.... equals a very accurate rifle . weight helps . Remington 40x, 5-r, sender or 5-r. sako long range

the rifle is more important than the cartridge.

A factory 6.5 x 284 may be the ticket; likewise the 260 Remy (or a variant).

If that's not enough soup for him (and it is for an elk), check out splattermatic's post on the 7mm Mag.

Long range is a lot about practice and practice is a lot about recoil. 'Course, if your pal is willing to lug a 10 lb rifle, more options await.

Or hell, just get a Tikka in 7mm 08 ...

Tikka CTR 308 Win.

Remington 5R Milspec 308 Win.

Given the criteria, that's probably exactly what I'd point him towards. Or a Tikka or savage of some sort. Those choices are known for their accuracy right out of the box..

Chris .... .308 should handle the chore with aplomb. I don't see why an off the shelf ADL/SPS couldn't handle the core (I have yet to have bad luck with those), but budget will dictate. I wouldn't want to lug a 5R all day unless I was playing PRS games.

g

In my opinion, this lies with the shooter and an accurate firearm more than the cartridge size.

As everyone has stated, practice, practice, practice if you're going to try shooting at long ranges of 600 yards. A well placed shot is what counts in my book. I think that more animals are lost due to someone thinking that because they have the latest and greatest new long range magnum that it will make up for a poorly placed shot. Someone that is more comfortable shooting a 260, 7-08, or .308 does much better than the guy with a .30-378, and flinch's with each round fired.

Personally, I would never try a 600 yard shot (or so I think). I've taken my fair share of elk in Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. Ive never had to shoot more than 200 yards (my choice). I've harvested 4 in Utah, 3 in Nevada, and 9 in Arizona.

The elk harvested in Utah and Nevada were taken with a .30-06 in 150 grn Sierra Spitzer boat tail handloads, or 180 grn round nose Remington Core-Lokt factory load.

Of the 9 in Arizona, all of them were under 140 yards with a muzzle loader. 5 with a .50 cal, using a .45 cal 300 grn Hornady XTP in a sabot and 150 grains of Triple 7 powder. The other 4 with a .54 cal, using a 600 grn maxi-ball and 120 grains of triple 7.

Yes, a well placed shot is what counts. Maybe have him go to the range with a few borrowed rifles to see what his recoil thresh hold is and narrow down the choices. Then start practicing.

Sorry for the rant. Just my opinion.

308, 308, 308

Having suggested other calibers, I will acknowledge it is impossible to improve on the .308 for what the OP wants. Mine would be Tikka due to good performance and light weight. And they make lefties

Norma? I second that....

308
If your twisting turrets all 30cal from mild to mighty are the same. The wind is what gets ya. If you can't read the wind to get a mild .30 Into the hot box a .30 superwizbangboom might help a c-hair. But it will never overcome cheap trigger time with a 308. There is a lot of 308 match Ammo out there that will hang with or beat some of our best hand loads.

I sent him all these replies and advised him to get a .308. He plans to look at different rifles this weekend.

Before he buys a new rifle, he should consider the power still remaining at the 600 yard mark for that particular cartridge. Even a svelte 165 Accubond in the 308 drops 76" when sighted in at 200 yards; over 6 ft.....and energy falls down to the 1,000 ft/lbs or less. That's a pretty marginal Elk round at 600 yards.

I agree but I have a feeling once he starts shooting at distance he will realize 600 yds is a poke. And in my experience 99% of the time finding away to get closer is an option.

I'm afraid if he gets a magnum sufficient range & trigger time may not happen to have the skill set to take a 400 yd. + shot in a hunting situation.

A tikka CTR in .308 or a Ruger RPR in 6.5 Creedmore
Put some sort of SWFA on it and go shoot it with decent ammo.
Creedmore has some of the best factory ammo for this purpose and there is enough .308 loads out there to find something that will shoot good.......
JMHO and worth what it cost.......

I've got or shot every chambering cited and a fhuqk of a lot that ain't. Hint.

For setting up a Newb who doesn't load,the 6.5 Creed is far and away the most for the least. Nothing in a Factory Box begins to touch it for BC,Precision and modest recoil. Nothing.

600yds is fhuqking 1st Grade child's play,with an outta da' box Montucky Adirondack Creed' and Factory 140 ELD's at 2650fps. The Agg's are stupid,ES/SD trite,the pile driving ass apparent and the lack of recoil only adds greatness to the equation. The throat is right,the twist is right and COAL latitude is right as well...so all the Terminal Affects dots are connected,because one can simply have his way with projectiles.




I'm done with LW's,because I've broken too many sets and I'd simply default Reupold DD's with a 6x MQ for Utility Killing. The aforementioned Factory Fodder at the speed cited and zero'd at the 200yd line,will crush the 1050yd line on the reticle alone. Even with a "flat" mounting system,there's more than enough erector alone to reach wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy past the 1500yd line. Conjoined,a mile of reach is more than granted. Hint.

If he could miss a milk jug at the 600yd line ala MPAJ/Ruck with said platform,I'd be rather fhuqking impressed with his Dumbfhuqktitude.

Steer him towards the Sig Kilo LRF,score a coupla boxes of the ammo cited and he'd be blowing his own mind,3rd shot into the first box. Hint.



The prescribed .305 G7 BC is fhuqking money and as Factory Fodder goes,the schit is straight SINISTER.

Fhuqk the Fluff and cut to the gawwdamned chase with the GOOD schit. Handy/dandy HAMMERS ain't tough to swoon.

You've been led to water.

Hint.............................

I think he is suggesting the 6.5 Creedmore.

A good choice for a newbie for the reasons stated.

The best combination of value and accuracy is the Savage.

This model would be my choice

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/pro...sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=fn

As it would be easy to shoot well and all up is not too heavy for a man to tote.

The scope should follow the KISS plan. A Leupold 6x36 with the BH reticle is easy to use with no knob twiddling.

Shooting at big game at 600 yards is not a good idea. Stick with gongs for long range. Hunting is about getting as close as you can to make a clean kill. If you want to be Chris Kyle, join the military. No on will cry over a gut shot muzzie, our wonderful big game treasures deserve far better.

Having a dead gut shot Elk found by Sierra Club hikers next spring is a blackmark for ALL hunters.

This ain't going to take long

Everything in this post is solid, well articulated, far from a rant.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/REMINGTON-LONG-RANGE-CENTERFIRE-RIFLES/1791588.uts

I'm gonna get one in 06 soon.
Really hard to ignore.

Neat Rifle, would like one someday, but 9 pounds sans scope for a 30-06 is a bit hefty. My 300 WBY gets close to that weight with a M8 6x42 on top.

320 keith ~

Well said !

Starting with quality fixed Six
power scope forces one to learn
solid shooting skills out to 300-400.
A newbie should be proud to make
a ethical kill at that long range pre
dial up. That is if the hunter is
up to it.

6.5 Creedmoor

Yup.

Stick nailed it. I do like mine.

I like mine.

Someone said the 6.5 Creedmoor is the .260 Remington done right. It is a well thought out round.

DF

One of these days, I will break the factory load habit and stuff some hulls....but there isn't much real need.

This was among the first 3 shot groups I fired at 300 yards with the 120 gr Amax factory load. I fired another 3 and the group opened up, but still not bad for a factory load.

For reference the dot is 3".

It's become very fashionable here to recommend cocktail-time cartridges for elk-"you know, I took that bull with a 140 out of a 260, no problem". Sure, it can be done and at times with aplomb. And I also respect guys like Brad and Bob and others absolutely.

But this isn't a military scenario wherein you don't have to kill a man to get him out of the fight, just wound him, take him out of the fight and eat their side's resources. In a sport hunting scenario you want/need to kill this animal now and humanely; stop him if you will from dropping off that ridge into the next canyon. It takes adequate precision and power, a combination of those two for most one-week-a-year elk hunters, every two to five years.

This is a very big animal, very vital, and ready to flee to the next county line, or three drainages over with even a severe but not immediately fatal wound. Why dance around the edge of certainty? Not that a big cartridge guarantees certainty but if you CAN shoot it, apply some bullet weight and energy to the task at hand. Amd most of my bulls have come at close to 400 yds or over, not close in.

To six hundred yards? A 6.5, or a 308? They are simply are not the best choices for elk to that range IMO; deer? Ok,Yes, but not elk. Again, to reiterate, not that it can't be done.

Nothing against anybody here but the crux here is long range-to 600 yards for a 500 to 900 lb animal that is inclined to wanting to be gone.

This aught to be interesting.

Boolits matter wayyyyyyyyyy more than headstamps. HINT.

If only for conversation and context.

The 6.5 Creed 143 Factory Fodder at 2700fps,zeroed at the 200yd line,do thusly at the 600yd line in 10mph full value atmospherics. Drop = 75",drift = 23",impact velocity = 1888fps and "energy" = 1132ft lbs.

A 300Winny squirting a 180NPT at 3100 fps,zeroed at the 200yd line,do thusly at the 600yd line in 10mph full value atmospherics. Drop = 70",drift = 36",impact velocity = 1710fps and "energy" = 1168ft lbs.

LOTSA folks think the 180NPT at 300Winny launch speeds is THE Grail,but I'd be quick to take the reduction in recoil,noise,wind drift and increase in impact velocity,conjoined with a shorter/lighter better handling parcel,as well as a minimum of (1) extry poke in the magazine...and that's not even making mention of the FACT that the Creed' would get shot a fhuqk of a LOT more in practice.

Just sayin'.

Hint.

Killing ain't difficult.

Re-hint.









(addendum)

Feel free to cite the headstamp,that is "exempt" from projectiles having a greater affect,than it's relative Brasstitude. Don't "forget",there ain't much I do not shoot. Hint.

Keeping the rifle handy/dandy and friendly,do countless favors that are tough to quantify,until one substitutes headstamps in exchange. Doubly so,when Factory Fodder is so incredibly SPECTACULAR. Hint.

Just what would YOU "suggest" for a non-reloader,to connect something so amazingly simplistic as a 600yd dot? Lay out the rifle,mounts/rings,glass and Factory Fodder,it's zero,amount of practice and conjoin same with your version of Terminal Affects.

I don't "encourage" anything other than proficiency,boolit selection and adhering one's relative abilities.

Hint.

Box, you're right but you can carry that argument only so far before you have to consider the headstamp too.

Most guys shouldn't be encouraged to shoot elk at long ranges anyway.

I wonder why people think they can shoot 600 yards while they are new to the game.
I've seen other posts on other forums mentioning the magical 600 yards.
Is it due to the bdc reticlles that guys think he can place a round at 600 with out a problem?
Hunting isn't from the bench in perfect and ideal conditions or shot opportunity.

308, 308, 308

Shrapnel....has probably hit more elk with his truck....than the gooney birds recommending the 6.5 for elk at 600 yards!

Has anyone brought up how target bullets won't work on elk yet? I wanna make sure we cover everything.

Also, "tactical" scopes don't belong on hunting rifles.

Tanner

Along this same subject, a guy at work was asking me which 308 he should get for long range shooting. He wants the 308 for the abundance of match factory ammo and cheap practice ammo. He doesn’t reload and has settled on the 308.
He was asking about the Sako A7 Roughtech range http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-a7/a7-roughtech-range
An 11 twist, 26 inch barrel. I know nothing about the A7s other than they have some plastic parts, but are they any good?

My bud from work asked me same question a couple months ago. He also does not reload. I told him I liked the Rem 700 5R, but that the 6.5 Creedmoor was the ideal cartridge for him over the 308.....

No flies on the 7-08 either in the same configuration plus plenty of factory fodder to choose from.

Just checked and saw that there are a few more 260 Rem loads out there nowadays.

Remmy should come out with a 700 5R in 260 with a couple new loadings to boot. If they made said rifle the decision would have been quick and painless. Their Premier Match line is a goatfuck and not a 260 load to be had. They have done their best to kill the 260 from the start.

He is talking 700 5R in 308 again. I just can't see going 308 over a 6.5, and I shoot 2 308s fairly frequently.

I will prolly talk him into a 10X42 SWFA SS to go on his rig. Once he makes up his damn mind.....

Boxer, apples/oranges, bad numbers on 300wm. You lose!

'3rd,

Most have ZERO fhuqking inkling as to that which is both possible and reliably repeatable,as per whim. I often gun 900yd steel with a goodly smattering of different rifles,running the gamut in both bore size and case capacities,but can shoot CBS cleans upon same with better than a dozen rifles atta whack,as per my whim,in decent conditions(bolts,lever,selfshuckers). Matters not to me,if I dope an erector or slip a reticle to arrange that POA/POI correlation. Why folks fixate headstamps so much,at the total disregard for twist/throat/COAL harmony in relation to that which matters MOST and dat's simply boolits,is one of Life's MANY constants. With today's 60+ mph gusts,there's a hurdle or two tossed in the fray...but how "difficult" is it to walk away from a 900yd opportunity when it's blowin' 60mph+?!? Easy for me,though I cain't speak for others.

There's ALOTTA folks slummin' schit Riggin',that are rollin' dice on farrrrrrrrrrrrr lower percentage odds at 100yds,due tackle and "intellect". Than a good guy with good riggin' in good conditions at the 500+ yard line. Hell...I've very often seen me shoot Chickum Eggs and Claybirds at distances greater than that. Hint.

Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't,which is prolly a handy "tidbit" to factor in extrapolation.(grin)

I never have,nor would I ever encourage someone to shoot past their abilities,understanding or Riggin'. Have seen me be a proponent however,of obscene round count and giving rifles,boolits,mounting systems and glass more than a casual thunk. Spent primers remain THE Supreme Tutorial,but a quickaloo check for honest folks,is to simply go hasty MPAJ on an empty chamber and break the trigger at the distance of enthrallment. With good dope,good riggin' and a fhuqking clue...live rounds will go to the same place. If you can't hold it on an empty chamber,you sure as fhuqk won't be able to with a live round either. Pass the attempt and get set up better BFD. Hint.

Elk die easier than lotsa thangs and happen to have big vitals. Dealin' death,is hardly "daunting" there.

If folks ACTUALLY shot as "much" as they "think" they do and "knew" as much as they "think" they do...this mind numbing STUPIDITY wouldn't arise with such alarming regularity.

It ain't the Indian,as much as the arrow...but beware the BEST Indian with the BEST arrows. Seen it.

Hint...................(grin)















Dre',

I reckon 600yds is a fixture due to some formal Target Disciplines that share a like engagement distance,as well as BDC/CDS Bullschit,amonst other Myths,Wivestales and outright Delusions.

With 7 seconds of Instruction and assumin' a gent with a clue,it's impossible to miss a milk jug at the 600yd line,in anything nearin' "fair" atmospheric conditions. Have handed off my wares 100's of times,to arrange similar and the only one who weren't "surprised",was me. There's method to the madness. hint.(grin)

The ONLY way to get good in less than ideal conditions,is to purposely chase same...just TO shoot in it. That glaring obvious escapes all. Hint.

Stupid Fhuqkers,reliably do STUPID schit and you can count upon the sanctity of that hilarity bein' a CONSTANT. Note how often BOOBS cite a headstamp,but never a particular boolit and when they do attempt projectile selection,just how badly it's fhuqking BOTCHED. Reread this very Thread from the start and note the HILARITY. Not so "surprisingly",you'll note how deep you hadta' dig,before a specific projectile was even cited. That poignant profundity is more than a "little" telling and DUMB Fhuqks can only talk in veddy veddy broad generalizations. Hint.

Not all chamberings are "equal" in all rifles. Hint.

Why?!? Twist/throat/COAL run the gamut in Make to Make. A rifle can be no better than the BEST boolit it will align and them differences are welllllllll beyond STARK. Hint.

Few have an understanding of BC and it's inherent virtue(s),though everyone "thinks" they do...which is funnier than fhuqk! Take the above DUMB Fhuqk who's stumped with plainly cited Facts and Physics. The itty-bitty Creed and 143ELD stomps the 300Winny 180NPT at the 600yd line. She couldn't handle the notion of the .697BC 147ELD at 2700fps chambered same.(grin)



Let alone a S/A 260AI squirtin' same at 2900fps ala binderless DBM and a 6x MQ. The Creed' will just "happen" to arrange an inordinate amount of Greatness,due nothing less than well executed mechanical design,where Theory pales to Application. It sounds good,but is quite a bit better than it sounds. Nice place to be as well,in that the projectiles that grant same,were constructed to have the mettle requisite to harness them impacts. Win/win/win.

Coming full circle,you've VERY obviously have not tasted in the firsthand,what a GOOD rifle will do ala Hasty MPAJ. I simply do it daily. Hint.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!..................















Sharpsman,

The only thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination. Congratulations.

Now as Factory Creed' Fodder goes and talkin' a Milford atmosphere in current conditions with a 250yd zero,the 147ELD 2700fps Factory Wrap do thusly at the 600yd line:

Drops 65"(3 Mils),drifts 20.4" in 10mph full value(.9 Mil),impacts at 1964fps and has 1260ft lbs of "energy".

As compared to say a 300Wby and 150NPT at 3400fps,zero'd same in like atmosphere and identical scope height(1.75").

The "mighty" 300Roy drops a bit less at 50.5"(2.3 Mils),drifts much more at 30"(1.4 Mils),happens to arrive the scene at IDENTICAL impact velocity of 1964fps with the whole extry 3grs of mass givin' it a microscopic "energy" edge. Hint.

Ain't it a hoot,when your inherent DUMBfhuqktitude is set on display?!? If ONLY you could savvy,just how amazingly fhuqking STUPID you are.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!................















starsky,

The gals are doing GOOD,to get a fhuqking box of boolits even opened up,if the could afford one.(grin)

Bless their hearts.

Laughing!..............















Tuner,

Don't forget how "top heavy" that glass will make 'em too.(grin)

Bless their hearts.

Laughing!...............















Kodiak',

The FAST track to getting fhuqking GOOD with a rifle,is a killer 22LR and to flog upon it to the absolute mercy of a good erector's travel(500yds++ anyhow). A brick of ammo through that,will learn a gent farrrrrr more about atmospheric influences,than whistlin' through a truckload of Mart-Mart Tree Oh Not So Great Fodder. Hint.

Anschutz 54 jingle,is the best Learnin' Loot a gent will ever spend.



There's nothin' redeeming in the Sako cited and DBM favors are only granted,when staying an AICS footprint. Proprietary schit will paint a guy in a corner and hose COAL latitude mightily. Sako screws the Pooch there,just like most others. Hint.

A Tree Oh Not So Great is always gonna need more COAL and binderless AM's,Alpha's or the like,are the fast track to said sanctity.

260 hull at S/A 700 OEM confines(2.815") with a 147 ELD extrapolation and a Creed' case illustrating the inherent .100"+ COAL advantage it bolsters in a like sized box. AICS OEM bindered mag below and to the left,AM binderless to the right. 2.975" a breeze in the AM.



The Creed' CRUSHES all things 308...despite it being a smaller case. Why? It slings a vastly superior boolit. 'Course it'll recoil less and not be as noisy either. Hint.

Boolits matter more than headstamps................(grin)

















'fish,

I shot a 7-08 once.(grin)

I'm unaware of a legit Factory LR Load and so is everyone else. Hint.

For just a leetle conversation,in regards to boolits firstly and headstamps secondly. In regards to the boolits setting alone and L-R: .224" 75'Max,.243" 105 Hornie HPBT,.264" 147ELD and .284" 162'Max. For conversation,the Creed' will shoot the 147 at the same speed a like length 7-08 will the 162...but the 147 has a .697BC instead of a .625BC. The 7-08 cain't hang. Why? Boolits. Hint.



I really like the 162'Max at 2850fps in my 7-08AI,but my 260AI will grant 2900fps with the 147ELD and it's simply a phenom.

Binderless AICS footprint mags bein' a given,in both. hint.



308 uppermost,7-08AI lower MOA/MOA Fixed Fhuqkers a given,inclination tossed copiously and a Creed' will simply thrash the pair. Binderless AICS footprint AM's a given.



'Tis a leetle bit intellesting,to gun all side by each.

Hell...I've seen me do it....................(grin)















'muchgun,

260 Factory Fodder sucks heavy ass,scratch that notion. They've a couple 5R-esque S/S 260 offerings that are 8",but they are badly COAL hosed and the stocks suck ass. If a guy HAD to suffer one,inletting it for AICS DBM is a breeze and that near 3" latitude will pay beeg dividends.

I've got wayyyyyyyy too many Tree Oh Not So Greats,though noone hates said chambering more than I. As a MBR in say HK91,it's doable and I of course suffered M1A1's,Krunchentickers and other Self Shuckers of the ilk,amongst Pumps,Levers and of course bolt guns too. Purty embarrassin' really.(grin)

I'd like to see Ronnie Barrett do a well throated 260 1-8" with the 3" box in S/S,for guys who actually shoot. A 147ELD smooch at 2.925" would be Skookum and a Giant Killer to boot.

As Fixed Fhuqkers go,the 10x MQ is a tough bitch to whoop on a Giggles Rifle. Much prefer it to MOA/MOA,though in fairness the MOA/MOA windshield do grant a silver CH more of latitude,than the 10 Mil MQ windshield. 'Horn ring the bitch and reap all the goody.

Once you see a .700 BC slice atmospherics with no recoil...all else fhuqking pales...............(grin)















ScooterDUMB,

My my my...you CLUELESS Fhuqk,I enjoy how Facts and Physics don't steal the "thunder" from the Fluff of your Imagination and it's Pretend. Congratulations?!?

Be SURE to swing for the fence and find me "mistaken",as you talk out your ass about the things you've never seen,never will do and never understand.

I cain't wait. Hint.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!..................

Not that it changes the outcome of .697/2750 vs .670/2750, but have you played with the 162 ELD yet? I'll be curious to see how the .284 180 ELD plays out. Seems the 162 ELD has a decent bump up from .625...

I've not shot either of the new NotSo Poly Tipped Non-A-Max 162's...and gotta melt tips off a couple/few thousand more 162 A-Max,before I "fret" that transition.(grin)

Prolly got a trio of Montucky 7 Whizzum's in which they'd shine in,if only for starters,but would prolly haveta slum 'em in 7-08 and 7-08AI too,in the interest of R&D. A .670BC at 3100fps+,would slip conditions rather nicely and be tough not to love.

First (3) to the left are 7 Whizzum's. The 162ELD at 3100fps would get the MQ windshield to the 1350yd line on the nose and full value 10mph wind at the 2000yd line is a paltry 3.9 Mils and only 22.4 Mils on the erector. Would haveta peel the Reupold MK4 M1 10x MilDot off and go 10x MQ,just to begin to do it justice. 1810fps of impact velocity at the 1000yd line,prolly don't suck and every (1) mph of full value wind there,is less than a scant 5.5" nudge. Not a bad place to be.(grin)



Be curious to see if they'd stabilize in a 22" SALAMI 7-08 1-10" Liljee spout,like the A-Max do. Might could be intellesting,though I reckon I might even have some in greater RPM too,if only as a control measure.



The 180 ELD in a 700 based 280 or 280AI would likely shine nicely,as I'd want some more CC's,to drive the mass increase...if in fact the aero form is there to warrant the move. Same goes the 700 based 7mmRemMag blueprint,due like mannerisms,in relation to case length and COAL latitude.

Weather really simmered down today,as it had been gustin' 80mph+. Them Chinook rains beautified the roads and made gettin' around a pleasure. Purty nice day for a Cast & Blast and we got some licks in. Time to fire up a skillet and cook some backstrap. I schlepped The Baby BR all day and Sister cain't seem to get out of KHorn Mode.




Boolits prolly do matter,after all...no matter what The Paper Hat Brigade "thinks". Laughing!

35gr V-Max from Christmas Morning.



Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't.(grin)

Hint...................

That's where I'm at, too. Still got a shelf full of 162 AM's to whistle through before I try the .284 ELD offerings. I'm thinking 180's in 50gr+ capacity chamberings to compare and do some R&D beside the 195 Berg's, if they warrant it. Getting 2900 in my 7WSM's with the 195, and should see 3000+ with the 180's.

A guy could probably get 2600-2650 from a 7-08 with the 180's. I'm seeing 2500-2550 with the 195's.

How'd those Toyo's do on that sheer ice? Trying to remember if you got them studded?

What barrel length, twist, and which powder?

26", 8", 7828ssc

24", 9.5", 7828ssc

If your wanting long range on a budget,
Get the Savage 116 300wsm (Stainless synthetic)

Damn. matches the top speed i've seen out of my 24" 7 weatherby. Those 195's are phenomenal, I have limited terminal performance to draw upon, as my tags this year were archery and musket, then broken leg. but a few buds ran them thru deer and elk and gave the thumbs up.

Also i was dickin' around with my L691 270wby and 170 EOL's, they were key holing..Thought nothing of it until Barsness reported them flying true out of a 1/10" 270 win. So i measured my twist, 11.75" is what i came up with..Eat a dick douglas!

I requested a 1-10" when i sent it in years ago, but never bothered to verify till the 170 EOL came on the market. Oh well, a 1-8" will shine.

Yeah, the 195's are simply awesome, but they sure don't dig very deep! I caught one last year under the offside hide of a decent WT buck shot broadside. It did punch both shoulder blades, but I would have thought that 195 grains of 7mm bullet just might exit. How'd it do for your buds?

A nearly 12" twist in a .277" bore brings no joy. I'm sure life will be better once you go 8" Did you hear anything about Matrix discontinuing .277" offerings? On their site they're not listed for sale anymore...

Out of curiosity did you run any over the chronograph? I have a 1 in 9 twist 270 Win and some of those 170's but adding a 270 Wby has always been intriguing. Hope to load a few this week finally.

Of the deer shot, only one exited and that one was at over 900 yards.

The elk was taken out via gutless, so no real idea there other than he died within 20 yards of impact,no exit.

Time will tell, need a few more victims to draw a conclusion. I hadnt heard about the matrix.

Gerry, 3025fps with H1000.I didnt work with it much at all given my twist situation.They show promise with the right barrel.

Thanks for the info.

The 195's were an "interesting" workup in both my 7 WSM's with 7828. Be careful, as in extra careful. When you find pressure, you'll most definitely know it.

Can't wait to play with the 6.5 147 ELD's in my 6.5 SAUM. Got the barrel early, and the stock gets here in a few days so it's time to get the reamer. Woohoo!

If factory ammo is the requirement and the OP is researching this for a LR noob, the 6.5 Creed would seem to me to be the obvious choice. Can't speak to how it'd work on elk at 600 yards, though there is a video of (I believe) Van Zwoll killing a bull cleanly at that range with a Creed.

...... and unless the OP's friend is the exception to the rule, this whole thread will fall on deaf ears and he'll buy a 300 WM anyway.

Not really hard to tell who can drive and who don't...

I suggest you hunt with a bow for a while. Learn some skills then apply same with a rifle. Shooting critters at extended ranges is about as exciting as phone sex. It may get the job done but you're missing out on the best part IMHO. It's hunting not shooting. Get closer and worry not about the hammer so much. Many have been taken with 30-30's in the hands of skilled HUNTERS. Stick has valid points on the physics but I have yet to see any pics of his including anything bigger than a black bear. He's so full of hot air he could blow a 6.5 Amax out his azz with better trajectory than his Montana Creed.

Said Creed load is an ELD X bullet with a.623 G1 BC. A proven long range HUNTING bullet.

Stickbow,
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you DO realize you are on a Long Range Hunting forum, right? Maybe your advice would be better given on the rimfire forum or general hunting forum.....

If you haven't seen pics of Stick's hunting quarry he bagged it has to be because you aren't paying attention. He posts tons of pics of the Sitka Blacktail deer and Black bears he kills, which is about all that is available to him on the island he lives on- besides a few crows and vermin.

Bob

And the OP asked about elk not Sitka or black bear. Perhaps a 7 mag with 162 GR ELD X loads would be more appropriate. And getting closer never hurt nothing
No slam on the Creed but for a "newbie who wants to hunt elk extra punch isn't a bad thing. Plus the fact that Creed ammo isn't everywhere. If he was rolling his own it's a different conversation. 7mm Mag in a big green box will kill elk all day even way out there and you can get it at a gas station.

Jordan,

I've some of the .670 BC ELD M 162's waiting for me at the house,because I couldn't stand not knowin'. Also some Nuzzler RDF 105's,Hornie 108 ELD M's and Hornie 75 ELD M's...just to see WTF. Also scored some Alpha 6.5 Creed Virginity(through Copper Creek) and it is supposed to be THE Schit. We'll see.

The M162's will be for Montucky 7 Whizzum's expressly,the RDF's will get shot round robin in a herd of Killer Spouts,for straight up R&D and aero form confirmations. Prolly won't whistle 'em through a 7" 5R Krunchenticker 243 SALAMI,until aero merit is proven elsewhere.

Finger on gunning the 75's in some Sinister Spouts too,in more than a coupla flavorings of headstamp,just to see WTF and how they fly. I figure after PN,Hart,Liljee,Brux,Bart' and 'Rock Test Drives,conclusions will be crystalline.

Will go a leetle more esoteric/boutique with the 108's and they's destined for a particular Flyweight 243 Aye-Eye and a Crazy Flyweight 6BR(no-turn). They'd haveta SERIOUSLY fhuqking impress,for the 105 Hornie BTHP to get called offa da' Field.

The Toyo 265 MT's hooked to the OME Dakkar stern tracking system and OME/Bilstein bow trackers are simply routinely AMAZING,in how they gripple stuff that others simply cain't begin to. It's like wearing corks while in your barefeet. No studs,as they ain't my jam.

While draggin' bags to start for the airport,I gots a leetle suplize. James Kessler does NOT fhuqk around and I had a new spout and various accoutrements arrive,that I didn't expect until several days later. Was curious to see what all this fuss was about with them slickery 147's and that there new Kreedmire. Laughing!



I wanted a 1-16",but he met me in the middle. Cain't win 'em all.(grin)



Everything was shiny where it were supposed to be and I've gots me a hunch,that I were pleasantly suplized.




Always wanted to try one of them MacaMillion stocks,to see what the fuss was there too. Fingered I could inlet it easily enough with a JackHammer,so I did. Been hearin' about them DeeBee Em's too. Laughing!



Put on the HSS Finishing Bit and all is well.



I reckon it ain't anywhere near "fair",to shoot wares that actually EXIST...but it is funnier than fhuqk to give The Do NOTHING Gang opportunity to Whine.

Bless their hearts.

Laughing!...................















rph',

What in your "experience",wouldja' deem as "positives" in regards to the Salvage Tree Hunnert Whizzum? Throat,twist or COAL? Congratulations?!?

They are whopping pieces of fhuqking schit,from any/all angles. Hint.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!.........................















rosco,

Holy Schit a 195 jump in a Weatherby,would impress Bob Beaman!

Tough way to do bidness,when TwistChow,ThroatChow or COALchow.

Happiness is connectin' all dots.................















JeffZero,

Factory Ammo will always do you the most favors,with your "pursuits". Congratulations?!?

Mebbe some day,it'll ship in velcro fastened parcels...so even someone as fhuqking STUPID as you could get inside. Don't "forget" to say sumptin' about scopes. Hint. Just sayin'.

Bless your heart.

Wow +P++!

Laughing!...............















Shefire,

Mebbe wax eloquent yet again,on the Sweet "Satisfactions" of plagiarizin' pics and how only someone as fhuqking STUPID as you,could miss 100% of the crux. Congratulations?!?

You poor poor(literally) STUPID Fhuqk.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!.................















'bow,

You Whining CLUELESS Fhuqk,the high pitched nasal whine of STUPIDITY escaping tour trembling lips,is fhuqking HILARIOUS. Congratulations?!?

The only thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination. Do NOT "forget" you reserve the right to find me "mistaken",but pardon wellllllll in advance,FACTS precluding same. Hint. Laughing!

Like YOU have even "seen" a 162 ELD?!? You sad sack Day Dreaming CLUELESS Kchunt.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!.............















Bob,

I ain't even ever seened one of them Elkseses.(grin)

Don't go picking on 'bow...she's simply doing the BEST she can,with what incredibly fhuqking little she has to "work" with.

The Paper Hat Brigade NEVER disappoints in their sheer and utter DUMBFHUQKTITUDE.

Bless their hearts.

Laughing!...........................

Stick,

Off topic...

Do you still like the NuCanoe? And is yours the Classic? And if so, is the the 12' or 10'?

They started stocking them locally so I'm going to pull the trigger this spring.




Travis

There you are you LITTLE pariah. Thought we may have lost you to cirrhosis. Never seen a 162 ELD X? Hornady must be doing false advertising then as those be the little Crown Jewels sitting atop all my 280 AI cases.
I will give due credit to the little Creed and the Montana rifle. It isn't hard to combine a good cartridge with a good rifle and have good results. Where you severely lack is in reading comprehension. Facts given that the shooter is a newbie, doesn't handload and is going to chase elk, make me steer away from the Creed.
Long range hunting/shooting is a process or an evolution. New people make mistakes like losing or forgetting ammo for a hunt, lose interest in the game, misjudge distance and are hunting in areas where game can cross borders quickly.
A 7mm Remington Mag makes sense over the Creed IMO because if you leave ammo behind you can get decent ammo damn near anywhere. A 7 mag can be pedaled easier if the new shooter loses interest or wants to get money for a Creed. And comparing the two in like ammo lines (Hornady Precision Hunter) you have a higher BC bullet with more horsepower. A plus when you're shooting at a draft horse sized animal. Available platforms in 7 mag are as ubiquitous as an '06. Recoil is very tolerable for the performance with good bullets. It is not as well designed as the Creed but for THIS intended purpose it has advantages.

I think that you will like that Rem-age Criterion. Mine is flat awesome in .260. I am not a super-range guy, though, so I only shoot 129 Interlocks at deer!

Stick,
What was I thinking? I forget most of these characters haven't been around this forum as long as we have and don't understand the vagaries of posting "etiquette".

I was sure you had seen an elk or two, but didn't want to speak for you. You are doing just fine in that area by yourself- shame most here don't understand your english....

For the OP, if he is still around- if it were me, I would find a rifle you like the feel of and handles well to start with. Then find it in a cartridge you can tolerate, recoil wise and your idea of what it takes to kill elk efficiently. Some guys think it takes a 375 H&H minimum to kill elk and others feel a 25-06 is sufficient. As usual the truth falls somewhere in between. I've seen them killed with everything from 270's up to 416 Remington Mags and they all worked just fine when the bullet was in the right place. Personally, I carry a 338 WM and my son carries a 300 Weatherby. But, that doesn't make that the right cartridge for you.
The next thing is find ammo you can pick up fairly handy and in sufficient quantities that you can afford to shoot a lot of it. If you are going to shoot long range, you better be practicing an awful lot or you have no business taking long shots in the first place. Finding a handy place to shoot and lots of cheap ammo to practice with is the first step after acquiring a rifle/scope package.

This brings up the important point most people here are tiptoeing around. The reason most guys reload for this type of shooting is to control some of the variables and because it is a lot cheaper to shoot a lot of ammo if you handload it- which is partly what got me started loading 45 years ago. Can't remember the last time I shot a factory loaded round except to empty it out for the brass or .22 rounds. I'd reload those too if I could figure out how...
IOW- if you are serious about this hobby of long range shooting, think very seriously about taking up hand loading. Every guy needs a couple expensive hobbies just to tick off the better half...

Bob

'flave,

Am I gonna get teased again,about owning more boats,than The Paper Hat Brigade has IQ Points?!? You KNOW how fhuqking tender they are,regarding wares beyond their means and that...is mean. Laughing!

Wanted 10' and bought 12',because it were available and within 1000 miles of the house. They'll pack a purty good charge and reliably schlep more wares than The Paper Hat Brigade even fhuqking has. Seen it.





They'll happily pack a purty good charge,are amazingly stable,draw little in the way of requisite water depth,are tougher than fhuqk,it's no thang to throw over a shoulder and choogle with. They's well thunked and very versatile. Now The Paper Hat Brigade can say they've "seen" one of those too. Laughing!

Looks to me like a 162 A-Max exit,but all this stuff gets sooooooo confusing. Laughing!



Cain't remember what I paid...but nothing else will do,what they do....................
















DUMBow,

Cracked me the fhuqk up,that you couldn't even spell "due" correctly...you poor poor(literally) STUPID Fhuqk. Congratulations?!?

Lemme letcha' in on a leetle "secret",I miss NOTHING. Ever. Hint.

I get it,that you are doing the BEST you can,with what incredibly fhuqking little you have to work with and are at the mercy of your "means","abilities" and "experience"...which is THE most slippery of slopes. You "lucky" kchunt.

Pardon Facts,Physics and Reality,colliding with your Fantasy. Though I do VERY much enjoy your Drooling Dumbfhuqkery on the What If Chronicles and the EXCITING tales of forgetting everything,selling stuff you cain't afford and all the schit you are gonna ALMOST "do". Laughing!

The 7mmRemMag 162 ELD from Hornie Factory Ammo has 2275fps of impact,1860lbs of "energy" and 35" of drop from a 200yd zero at the 500yd line.

The Creed' 147 ELD Factory Fodder from same and sighted same,arrives the scene at 2092fps,has 1428lbs "energy" and drops 43 inches. PS and by the way,pardon the 147's BC(.697),trumping the 162's. Just sayin'. Hint. Laughing!

I'm rather at ease in "suffering" a "whopping" 182fps difference,432lbs of "energy" difference and 8" of drop difference at the 500yd line,to sideline a long action H&H based attempt and drive a 22-250 case insteada. Mainly because I shoot it all and am afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess. Hint. Laughing!

I never can remember if I shoot 7mm bore sizing or not. So be SURE to "tell" me "more". Laughing!





Now obviously,nobody could cite your Retardation and CLUELESS Fhuqking Stupidity better than you can/do and I'd certainly not wanna steal that "thunder" from you. So I'll letcha' obliviously quantify those depths even further,by granting you even more slack on the rope and letting you "extoll" on how that Bad 'Em 'Em of your's is set up,in regards to the "advantages" your Imagination and Pretend are granting you the Delusions to Fabricate. I ohhhh sooooo fhuqking dare you,you Drooling DUMB Fhuqk. Subtle Hint. Hint. Laughing!

Mebbe muse the rifle,base/rings,glass,POA/POI arrangement(s). Use as much Imagination and Pretend as you dare,to make them thangs "real". LAUGHING!

Now for REALITY. A Montucky Creed' gunning over da' counter 147's and a 6x MQ,will simply fold schit in it's tracks,is a hoot to shoot in volume pursuits(we in da' bidness call it practice),is cheaper to feed,of far less noise/recoil,will reliably getcha' an extry round in the belly(if not two),slips atmospherics better and due the nature of it's mild mannerisms,will receive a whole 'lotta more yerks on the trigger. You gotta remember,some folks ACTUALLY shoot...though you "get" to read about it. Hint.

Anywhooo...spent primers remain THE Supreme Tutorial and handy/dandy rifles trump all. Facts and Physics are more than a touch handy to have in one's hip pocket and glass that is utterly foolproof in how it tracks/repeats,is THE foundation upon which all is assembled. Kudos on botching it all! Laughing!

Now you can say you've "seen" the blueprint. Laughing!



Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't.

Hint.

Just sayin'.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!............................















'hooper,

I bought it longer than I wanted (26"),just for the satisfaction of taking a SawzAll to it,multiple times over,in the interest of 147 ELD R&D. Looking to a 21" Finish Line and the 2000yd line will be a breeze with .025" rear base shift and 40MOA 'Horn's,coupled with a 10x MQ and a 200yd zero.

A rifle can be NO better than it's boolit and that constant trips most folks up.

Assuming 8",a 700 based 260 just simply begs for an AICS footprint DBM,stoked with binderless mags and 147 ELD Smooches. My 260AI loves 'em at 2900fps ala '17 and Lapooey 308 formed false shouldered Virgins.

The Creed' 147 Factory Fodder CRUSHES a 260 and 129's. Why? Boolits/boolits/boolits and roughly in that order.(grin)

129 InterRock BC's,bearing surface and mettle,are veddy veddy easily whooped.

Hint..........................















Bob,

I'm on the ropes...so don't go spookin' the hole.(grin)

A handy/dandy rifle shooting stratospheric BC's with minimal recoil,will teach nothing but GOOD habits,which will reliably garner GREAT results in the Field.

Distances that make The Do NOTHING Gang tremble,are fhuqking hilarious in their ease.

Perspective is never not intellesting and it ain't ever been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't.

Bless their hearts.

Laughing!.........................

Stick:

Post some more pics of the rifle parts above getting put together...would like to see how inletting finished up...would like to see how that rifle progressed!!

I am being serious...not messing with ya (this time).

Thanks, 'Stick.




Dave

300HAG,

Coffee just flew out my nose and my eyes are fhuqking waterin',after reading your version of a reply. Congratulations?!?

Fascinating Delusion,that you "think" your INCREDIBLE Dumbfhuqktitude fhuqks with anyone other than yourself! Hint.

I'm fhuqking cryin'...I'm laughing sooooooooooooo fhuqking hard!!!

Inletting a stock is really "difficult". Laughing!

Wow +P++!

Bless your heart.

Laughing!................















'flave,

They be right proper handy.

Sister often throws it over a shoulder,walks down the driveway and tosses it in The Milford,with Big Yella' in tow and paddles all over The World.

It's THE schnizzle for Duck Kchunting and I reckon a guy could prolly even feesh from it.(grin)

I am as "surprised" as you are,that DUMBow shut right the fhuqk up,after that first hand glimpse of her Retardation. Too bad too,as I reckon her heralded 'Em 'Em is REALLY rather sumptin' and done did alotta deeds!

Bless her heart.

Laughing!.................

Yeah yeah yeah...blah blah blah same OLD stuff, you need a new gig there Ace....just post the pics .....wanna see your "handy" work....it ought to be SPECIAL!!

Then post some tree pictures too...what the phhuck..keep on keepin' on....still stuck at 1 post a day I guess??

.........Lots of possibilities here depending on one's budget and other considerations as well.

For 600 yard (or maybe longer should the situation arise?) elk hunting, some rounds will be better than others in terms of downrange retained energys, flatter trajectories and reduced wind drifts. In choosing a round for long range work, downrange ballistic performance imo is first consideration.

Although a 308 you mention is capable of such long range work, I personally would prefer additional assurance where flatter trajectories, less wind drifts and retained downrange energys/velocities are concerned.

Of the three you mention and if given the choice, I would eliminate the 308 as well as the venerable 30/06. The 270 WSM and the 7 mag would make better choices.

If there are not too many budgetary concerns, and if your friend would like to have better levels or upper levels of assurance where downrange ballistics are concerned, then consider either a potent 6.5, a potent 270 or a potent 7mm. There are a few.

26 Nosler, 6.5/300 Wby, 270 WSM, 270 Wby, 7mm Rem Mag, 28 Nosler.

Factory ammo is available for all.

If you were to sit down and play around with a downrange ballistics calculator and do some long range/downrange trajectory and retained energy comparisons, the above six choices imo would be excellent...Without going with the more expensive 6.5/300 Wby Accumark, the 26 and 28 Nosler are both absolutely outstanding ballistically.

Of those six, the beltless 26 and 28 Nosler are my two favorites. And you don't need to buy the more expensive Nosler rifle to get either chambering. Browning chambers both and is the only other manufacturer to my knowledge that does so.

But as with anything where benefits are increased in certain areas, there are tradeoffs. If your friend is going to shoot a few hundred rounds per year at the range, the time line of barrel life from either a 6.5/300 Wby or the 26 Nosler will be reduced. Maybe a 1,000-1500 round life from either if properly cared for.

But on the flip side, if he fires 100 or so rounds a year the tube will last much longer.

Considerations,,,,,,,,considerations........Have fun.

I would recommend to him a Tikka CTR in 6.5CM. You can get him into a rifle that: a) is under $1000, easily; b) will be as accurate as or more than any other factory offering; c) fires one of the better dual purpose rounds available (dual purpose = hunting and long range shooting); d) is cost-effective, thus won't break the bank; e) has an excellent selection of factory fodder; and, f) is not too heavy to fill the dual purpose of both bench shooting long range and carrying as a hunting rifle. Good luck with your search.

Twig. My argument isn't with your choice of weapon system but with you being a complete dickhead. And one thing that is fact is that at this point in time Creed ammo isn't available everywhere. Hopefully that changes.

One can't help auto spell and you surely aren't one to cite rules of grammar.

Keep up the hard work twiggy and don't get chased off. It's always fun to see how much you give a chit about what everyone else thinks even though you say you have everything dicked.

6.5 Creedmore is the one that I would recommend. The main reason is you get custom rifle specs right off the shelf and factory ammo that works right along with it. From the start your friend will be looking at a savings(vs custom)of 5-6 hundred. That's more than enough to get started in reloading. I would tell him to spend his money there instead of high priced ammunition, he can have a lot more fun that way getting into long range. If he's on a really tight budget tell him to look at the Kimber Hunter. If he can spend more, make it a Montana.

I'm looking forward to getting one, Montucky it will be.

I don't know why y'all can't get along with Stick, he's always been good to me. It is good to know that if I start acting stupid he will straighten me out right away<grin>.

300HAG,

Of course it is the same old stuff...your kchunt has never left the fhuqking couch and you've assuredly not turned a single fhuqking move,you "lucky" kchunt. The "changes" are NONE. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Don't "forget" that Imitation is THE most Sincere form of Flattery and perhaps wax eloquent upon how your sheer and utter fhuqking STUPIDITY,is a Secret Squirrel "advantage". Hint. Laughing!

Inletting is REALLY daunting for DUMB Fhuqks and there ain't no slightin' how very well founded your Insecurities are,in regards to your "means","abilities" and "comprehension". My hand/eye coordination is offa the fhuqking charts and ain't it a fhuqking hoot that the schit you fret most,is a breeze for me and you'll haveta' pardon my not feeling compelled to apologize for them facts. Hint. Laughing!

As per your always,it's a very GOOD call to refrain ALL things The Rifle and to Whine instead,if only because it is the only fhuqking "move" you've got. Looking forward to your next Whine and a fresh batcha' Excuses.

Trifecta for you,just so you can "live" vicariously and you can keep tryin' to convince yourself that "you could too". Just sayin'. Laughing!



To copiously frost your Imagination and it's Pretend and to graciously offer you yet another Delusion,practice tellin' yourself you could whoop my ass too. You poor poor(literally) STUPID Fhuqk. Do NOT let the cat get your tongue,nor the couch your kchunt. Dangle a pic. Hint. LAUGHING!

Wow +P++!

Bless your heart.

Laughing!..................















bigtease,

You Day Dreaming DUMB Fhuqk,the only thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination. Congratulations?!?

Keep floggin' on that calculator and "flaunting" your Imagination and it's Pretend.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!...............















TheBitchingSniveler,

Tikka botches most everything and there's nothing redeeming in the CTR. Any/all mags that aren't AICS footprint,are a heavy concession,milk jugs suck and it is a Goat Fhuqk in general. Bang for the buck,it's a big can of suck.

Light done right,has no equal for Utility and trigger time trumps all(even calculatin'). Laughing!

Hint.

Now you "know".

Bless your heart.

Laughing!................















DUMBow,

Pardon my not fretting your tender feelers,but VERY much enjoying your Delusion(s) of having a first fhuqking clue. 'Tis a shame you don't have the 17 IQ Points requisite,to be privvy to such hilarity...you "lucky" kchunt. Congratulations?!?

ONLY someone as fhuqking STUPID as you,would be incapable of feeding a Creed'. Now ain't that too,a rather intellesting Dichotomy?!? Hell...some day you MIGHT even see one in the flesh. Hint. Laughing!

I'll feign my GREAT "surprise",that you are more than a touch hesitant to extoll the "virtues" of your beloved 'Em "em and all thangs that pertain to the very crux,which is POA/POI correlations. Good time to start firing up your GoogleFu,yet again. Hint. Laughing!

Pardon my Engleesh Skeelz bein' offa da' fhuqking chart. Being great ain't easy,but it's worth the effort,but at least you "get" to read about it...you "lucky" kchunt.

I enjoy how "real" your Imagination and it's Pretend are to you. You are doing "great"! Don't "forget" pics again. Hint. Laughing!

Just saying.

Bless your heart.

Laughing!..............















'ggun,

Never been tough to cypher who shoots and who don't and it's only "fair" to grant them that don't...ALL the slack on the fhuqking rope,that they "think" they can handle.(grin)

There's much to be said for aligning twist/throat/COAL and such parcels by literal default,are at distinct mechanical advantages,less a single concession.

You boys might talk me into trying one of them there Montuckys yet! Are they expensive?

Laughing!.........................

Stick,

Good stuff. Be curious to know what you think of the new projectiles and the Alpha brass after you've had a chance to shake them out.

Rifle is coming along nicely. Liking the low-pro pillars. Thinking the barrel will shoot, despite you only getting half the twist you asked for

Twiggy; Your reading comprehension is still astounding and is only trumped by your grammar. No one is bitching about the Creed or it's capabilities. Gotta love it when you compare a match bullet to a "hunting" bullet and then assume elk are paper targets. Just poking to keep you rolling so you have an audience to feed your ego. Keep an eye on your six for karma though as that chit is never far away. We'll see how long you last once peeps start posting your history as a reminder as how dumb you are.

First, happy new year Big Stick. Second, sorry I offended you and got you so upset. Third, I guess I should change my opinion, huh? I don't know why though as it does everything you and I both agree upon. Somehow you seem to have got the impression that, through my use of the English language, I suggested that all stated does not include trigger time/practice. I apologize, even though I don't know how that was derived from what I said. Of course reading your utilization of the same English language, I guess I could see how you could draw such false conclusions.

On another note my friend, you have really got to stop letting all of these guys live rent free in your head. Wow, do you ever get worked up over what other people opine or suggest. You really need to loosen the bone Wilma. Hang in there little buddy and be well.

I could hear that one fly over your head.

He can't help himself. There is no point to these threads after the first page once twiggy posts. It is basically a game of rattling his cage and giving him enough bait and ammo to keep him going with the insults. You keep him going long enough and he'll get so pissed off he'll cross the line and get banned. Nothing else to do this time of year I guess until we get good ice.