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I do alot of hiking in the Smoky's. We see bears often, most encounters are pleasant. We see each other, sometimes at close range, we each decide to give the other its space and all goes well. These bears are people habituated and are not afraid of people. In the last 2-3 years, people are getting mauled and bitten; we've had 2 in the past month. A good friend of ours was chased last weekend and followed for 1/4 mile by a youngish bear. The prevailing theory is that the bears had a bad mast year last year, went to den hungry, and came out hungrier. I'm not sure I'm buying that story. I do believe the Park has way too many bears. I've suggested to the park superintendent that shooting half the bears in the Park would be a good idea. They aren't going to shoot Yogi.
Which leads me to my question. I carry a Ruger Security Six 357 loaded with 180 gr LBT style bullets backed by a stiff charge of 2400. I have no doubt in its capabilities against Yogi. I watched the video of the guy shooting the moose with his Glock off the snow machine and got to wondering if a semi loaded with the right bullet might be better bear protection. I think moose-snow machine guy used a Glock 40 S&W. Don't know the bullet but they obviously worked.
I've seen the gelatin penetration testing and the 9mm seems to work the same as the 40 and 45 - but bears aren't ballistic gelatin. I have a 9 and think a bigger bullet is in order when dealing with a 2-300 lb bear.
What say you guys about semi's, cartridges, and bullets for this purpose?
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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That^^^ If you want to change cartridges/calibers go for a 41 or 44 magnum.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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9mm is a poor choice for quick neutralization of a threat. Several NYS Troopers lost their lives before the department dropped the 9 and adopted a larger caliber.
A 40 cal is better and a 10mm is "more" better if you have to have a semi.
Some years ago, a fellow and his girl friend made a poor choice to walk near the Russian River late at night. Surprised a brown bear, unloaded his 40, and exited the area. The bear was found dead the next morning.
Your revolver is not a bad choice, but larger calibers are always a better choice, thinking 41 & 44 mags, or a 45 Colt with an appropriate bullet.
Imagine your grave on a windy winter night. You've been dead for 70 years.
It's been 50 since a visitor last paused at your tombstone.....
Now explain why you're in a pissy mood today.
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I'd carry a 9 without the slightest hesitation if it was only black bears I was worried about.
Tanner
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If you can draw and fire your handgun into a 6" target at 7 yards 6 times in < 3 seconds you are on the right track. When you can do this on demand w/ the gun you carry all the time you have proved your potential matches your reality.
mike r
Last edited by lvmiker; 06/12/16.
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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That's an interesting drill - and my concern. I can't do that double action. With my 9mm no problem. I practice that drill with my semis, not so much with double action.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If I was you I would stick with the 357 Magnum and the load you mention
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).
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Bear protection is an interesting subject. If you're looking to truly protect yourself from a bear it will be done with the bear attacking you and not just shooting at one because your nervous of its presence. In the case of an attacking bear I would want something more powerful. Something like a 44 mag or 480 ruger as long as you can shoot them well. No point of messing around if your life is truly in danger.
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That's an interesting drill - and my concern. I can't do that double action. With my 9mm no problem. I practice that drill with my semis, not so much with double action. My backcountry gun is a Glock 23 w/ 180gr Golddots. Works pretty good in town for CCW too. Did you mean to say single action? The drill is pretty doable w/ a double action revolver or semi auto pistol. The draw is, for me, the most time consuming portion of the exercise. mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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A .40 or 10mm loaded with a hardcast bullet would be just as good as what you are carrying now but not really any better, unless you can shoot the auto significantly better than a revolver.
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I have killed quite a number of big game with a Glock 22 using 180 grain Gold Dots. I used to carry a 357 as well but much prefer my Glock in a kydex holster strapped to my hip with 15 rounds available. I am seriously entertaining a 10mm. Anything bigger is probably not going to get carried enough.
Were I in Grizzly country I might reconsider the 40 but I'm not and you're not. A 40 is your friend.
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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We have killed 5 black bears but never had an encounter with one. I am wondering why nobody mentioned bear spray? When I visited Yellowstone last year it seemed like you can buy bear spray in every town we visited including drug stores.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is.
dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
Italian Proverb
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Get the LARGEST can of bear spray you can find and a 10 MM something; in that order.
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I used a 10 mm Mag (Glock 20) to kill an adult male black bear. He was pretty fresh out of hibernation and probably weighed between 300 and 350 lbs. I shot him out of the window of my pickup at 15-20 yards with 180-grain CorBons. The calf that he was dragging by the scruff of the neck survived. The first shot put the bear down and I shot him a second time for good measure. The Glock was my winter carry gun down on the ranch for several years.
In warm weather, I carried either a Browning Hi-Power in .40 S&W or an 4-inch S&W Model 66. I used 135-grain CorBons in the Browning and 125-grain CorBons in the 66. Both were used to put down mule deer and pronghorns hit, but not killed, by traffic on the ranch road that ran down the middle of the valley. I also have used both to administer coup de gras to animals when guiding guest hunters.
I would feel comfortable carrying any of those three pistols in bear country, although the Model 66 is the only one that I still own.
Ben
Some days it takes most of the day for me to do practically nothing...
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I know on the first hand that a 100# black bear can/did take 8 124 grn gold dots and stand and look at me at 15 ft. (I have some of the slugs I will post pictures if I can find them. ) The bear stood on all fours looking at me and took 6 like he was being stung by bees no reaction of pain or so on. He slowly turned and walked away and took two more. 5 minutes later about 40 yards away he let out a death moan. You can pack what you want but I recommend 357 10mm 45acp and up. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s394/fredstokley/F2C2873B-4ACE-4A22-88CD-13C20D2C5340_zpsktaseatp.jpg) This is a pic of the two that were in the lungs. And yes bear on the coast of wa all bear are shot at any size as they eat a good number of fawns and elk calves. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s394/fredstokley/image_zps1dff265d.jpg)
Last edited by fredIII; 06/12/16.
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Yeh, bad guys used to soak up the wonder nines too!
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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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I know on the first hand that a 100# black bear can/did take 8 124 grn gold dots and stand and look at me at 15 ft. (I have some of the slugs I will post pictures if I can find them. ) The bear stood on all fours looking at me and took 6 like he was being stung by bees no reaction of pain or so on. He slowly turned and walked away and took two more. 5 minutes later about 40 yards away he let out a death moan. You can pack what you want but I recommend 357 10mm 45acp and up.
This is a pic of the two that were in the lungs.
And yes bear on the coast of wa are shot at any size as they eat a good number of fawns and elk calves.
wow, dude...
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
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For protection from bears you don't want, or need, any expanding bullet. All you need is one you can shoot well and rapidly as you will need to poke a hole through the brain or CNS. Your 357 setup is perfectly suitable for that purpose. I know for a fact that it works on our much larger brown bears. If you prefer some brand of 9mm, Buffalo Bore makes a heavy, hard cast 147 gr bullet that gives 1100 fps from a 4" barrel and I personally wound not feel the least bit inadequate in grinning down any black bear with a magazine full of those.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I will soon make a summer scouting trip into the high country of northwest Wyoming, where I will hunt elk this fall. This area is heavy with griz. A friend of mine has seen up to 8 in a single day of backpack hunting there. I'll carry my custom 10mm Glock, stoked with Buffalo Bore's 220 grain hard cast loads. The 6" Lone Wolf barrel gives me near 41 mag type performance with these loads & I like the idea of having of 'em loaded up.
I also use this when hunting black bear and mtn lion with hounds. Although I've not actually shot either with it yet, I trust it to do the job if I do mine.
..."I will not tip toe through life, to meet death safely."
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10mm Glock is good option with Bear loads. There is a very good guide Jerry Jacques who works near Phil who uses a 45ACP after being ripped out of a tent while guiding. He uses wilson combat 45ACP.
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I pack a G23 loaded with 200 gr hard cast at about 1000 mv. Its light and easy to carry.
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For protection from bears you don't want, or need, any expanding bullet. All you need is one you can shoot well and rapidly as you will need to poke a hole through the brain or CNS. Your 357 setup is perfectly suitable for that purpose. I know for a fact that it works on our much larger brown bears. If you prefer some brand of 9mm, Buffalo Bore makes a heavy, hard cast 147 gr bullet that gives 1100 fps from a 4" barrel and I personally wound not feel the least bit inadequate in grinning down any black bear with a magazine full of those. You can get a lot of advice from people who have no experience with bears. Or you can listen to a guy with a bunch of experience with bears. If it were me, I would listen to the voice of experience before theories. I think the gentleman quoted above has one or two bears under his belt.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Surely you jest.......
I'd bet Phil may may have killed a few bears. He may even have seen a brown bear shot once.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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The 357 loaded properly is just fine. A 10mm loaded properly will do the same thing in a smaller, lighter package with nearly 3X more ammo. A 40 loaded hot will come close.
I hike in the same areas. Bear there are very common as are people. The bear have absolutely no fear of humans due to so much close contact. Usually not a problem, I've had several pass within 15-50 yards and they ignored me.
But incidents there are becoming more and more common. You'll get lots of false advice about just leaving them alone and not having food close by and you'll be just fine. I don't have any control over what the hikers did 5 minutes or even 5 days before me did. If they taught that bear that humans will give them food then it will expect a handout from me.
I have little doubt that a 180-200 gr hardcast bullet fired at 1100-1300 fps will do about as good as anything. You can do that with 40, 10mm or 357 mag.
I've carried a G20 loaded with DoubleTap 200 gr at 1300 fps for a while. I wanted something more compact and tried a G23 for a while, but just didn't feel as comfortable with it. I bought a G29 about a year ago and it seems to be about the most power available for the size.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
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S&W 69 with 240gr XTP. Hornady and Fiocchi load them. Fiocchi are cheaper.
Living in a world of G17s and 700s, wishing for P7s and 202s
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As I said, I have been doing a lot of testing and when completed and written up I'll check again to see if Lee Hoots is interested and if not will publish it elsewhere. But the simple answer to the question of whether or not a 9mm offers adequate protection against black bears, the answer is yes. Would it work on a 1000# brown bear ? It certainly will penetrate deep enough to reach the brain from any direction. ![[Linked Image]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/Grizskins/9mm_zpsshlnnxib.jpg) And it should come as no surprise to anyone on this forum that bullet construction, sectional density and velocity are all major factors in penetration.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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458 , on a related note, how do you feel about using hard cast lead in a factory Glock? I hear a lot of noise about this, but have never tried it.
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Maybe ignorance is bliss but so far they work in mine.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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If you can draw and fire your handgun into a 6" target at 7 yards 6 times in < 3 seconds you are on the right track. When you can do this on demand w/ the gun you carry all the time you have proved your potential matches your reality.
mike r I won't say its impossible, but in a realistic situation, to become aware of the threat, draw the weapon and fire 6 rounds into a small target at 7 yards or there abouts all in under 3 seconds, I think one would have to be beyond well practiced.. I don't recall my old IDPA times draw and fire, but thinking even shooting 1-2 times a month I was no where near that fast... But if you could, you should be well protected.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Having lived with and among big bears for nearly 40 years I would say that normal situations with them is not really comparable to those with inner city humans. The ability to draw your weapon quickly is not usually an issue as there is no reason to not have a weapon already in your hand if you perceive a threat. And a bear poses no threat if it is still at 7 yards. Or even 3 yards ! Notice that my pistol is still in the full flap holster as I attempt to scare these two sub adults away from the airplane. And there are at least 3 other adult bears just outside of the photo. ![[Linked Image]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/Grizskins/securedownload-1_zpsmzia1sqb.jpeg) If you can hit something the size of a 12 oz can or grapefruit multiple times in rapid succession, at 10 feet or less you should be relatively safe. I find tossing items into the air and shooting them is a good practice for instinctively hitting smallish, moving targets .
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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They'd have to be pretty close for me to feel the need to shoot, as long as I already had a round in the gun and the gun ready to work.
My guide friend has had to fire a few into the dirt in front of them a couple of times but has never had an actual DLP issue.
IMHO awareness is the most important thing.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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you are absolutely correct. ![[Linked Image]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/Grizskins/Bearspray.jpg)
Last edited by 458Win; 06/18/16. Reason: photo added
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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My apologies to Mackey - I thought his post read had 1-2 beers under his belt. I'm sorry about that.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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My apologies to Mackey - I thought his post read had 1-2 beers under his belt. I'm sorry about that. No I hadn't, but your post made me laugh so hard I may go out to the cool meat shed and get one 
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Reading posts on a phone probably isn't a good idea. Not the first time I misread a word or two in a post. Beers to bears makes a slight difference in the meaning. <G>
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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Exhibit 1. Saw this sow with 2 cubs yesterday. Pics not best quality but was more interested in getting some distance plus they are zoomed a bit. We were 50 feet from them. BTW: smallest cubs I've ever seen. They couldn't have weighed more than 10 lbs. Momma isn't too big herself maybe 100-125 lbs. Most encounters go this way. ![[Linked Image]](http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/Whitetail6319/Bear_zpsxtzldaar.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp24/Whitetail6319/Bear%202_zpsvcamewn7.jpg)
Last edited by bwinters; 06/18/16.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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Reading posts on a phone probably isn't a good idea. Not the first time I misread a word or two in a post. Beers to bears makes a slight difference in the meaning. <G> On some of these threads I am pretty sure the posters had a LOT more recent experience with beers than bears. 
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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A couple of observations that I have had. I foot snared a large black bear about 10years ago that was tearing up bee hives. At about 15yds I shot him between the eyes with a 30 30with 150 grain soft points. At the crack of the rifle,the bear collapsed,only to bounce up again. I shot him again in the same place with the same result. I did it a third time and again the bear got up. I them shot him ear to ear with a side shot,and it was dead instantly. The three shots In the forehead,had all hit the skull, mushroomed, and slid upwards between the hide a d skull.Lesson: soft points don't work in the forehead. A solid would have penetrated the skull. On another bear same circumstances,I shot it in the face with a 12 gauge with bb s at 12 yds. The bear was dead instantly with the whole head caved in. Lesson: shot guns really work. Next one will be with 357 solids. Report to follow.
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Reading posts on a phone probably isn't a good idea. Not the first time I misread a word or two in a post. Beers to bears makes a slight difference in the meaning. <G> On some of these threads I am pretty sure the posters had a LOT more recent experience with beers than bears. Phil, That has to be one of the best (classic) posts in Campfire history. I think a lot of people underestimate how fast a black bear can run. I worked in a Sporting goods store where we weighed bears and bought hides etc. 400 lbs is not uncommon in Wisconsin and 600 lb bears are occasionly taken.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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I carry a Ruger Security Six 357 loaded with 180 gr LBT style bullets Ben, that's exactly what I carry, both pistol and bullets, for grizzlies here in MT when I'm packing out elk meat. Apart from draping bloody elk meat on my back, I only carry pepper spray. I can see no real need for a pistol unless you just want to pack one. Either way I'd not be without spray.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Outfitter
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If you can draw and fire your handgun into a 6" target at 7 yards 6 times in < 3 seconds you are on the right track. When you can do this on demand w/ the gun you carry all the time you have proved your potential matches your reality.
mike r I won't say its impossible, but in a realistic situation, to become aware of the threat, draw the weapon and fire 6 rounds into a small target at 7 yards or there abouts all in under 3 seconds, I think one would have to be beyond well practiced.. I don't recall my old IDPA times draw and fire, but thinking even shooting 1-2 times a month I was no where near that fast... But if you could, you should be well protected. It is actually quite doable w/ a reasonable amount of practice. In the backcountry I usually carry my Glock in an HPG kit bag and I have to train regularly to draw and fire 6 from it in< 3 sec. I dryfire from it while on the treadmill at least twice/ week. mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Campfire Tracker
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Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night.
I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Bear spray?
There's group that studied bear attacks and incidences, collected a ton of data and charted it. I watched their entire long video report. I'm not an expert but I'll repeat what I remember...
Their advice was:
- you have to carry something! Gun or bear spray, which ever you feel more proficient with, but every one in your party should carry something.
- the bear spray is more efficient protection than a gun. They clarified that this is all about being proficient with what you carry.
After watching the report I now carry bear spray. I'll have a lightweight revolver on me too but it's not my primary bear defense and I'll tell you why.
If I'm backpacking and I reach an area that has poor visibility I'll simply unholster my bear spray and carry it in my hand, at the ready. I can't comfortably do that with my handgun.
Also, the risk of running into another hiker with gun drawn is very uncool imo but having the bear spray dawn is non-threatening.
I see people out there with nothing at all to guys carrying all sorts of heavy artillery but I don't judge. I figure I'll carry what I'm comfortable with and mind my business.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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For curious bears the spray is okay... as long as you have something else lethal. For all other bears the spray is a joke. The worse joke is a bunch of the data collected "proving" spray is better...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Regular
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A man after my own heart. You ought to see how ineffective pepper spray or the much more powerful MACE products are on bad guys. Any bear is far stronger and tougher than any human. E
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Campfire Ranger
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...Lesson: soft points don't work in the forehead. A solid would have penetrated the skull. On another bear same circumstances,I shot it in the face with a 12 gauge with bb s at 12 yds. The bear was dead instantly with the whole head caved in. Lesson: shot guns really work. Next one will be with 357 solids. Report to follow. Well, yes and no. I've had analytical dealings with GSW's on human skulls more often than bear skulls, so you can take my advice with a grain of salt if you like. But the problem with punching through the skull is most of the time not so much due to the caliber or shape or construction of the bullet, but the angle at which the bullet strikes the skull. I've seen (and treated) guys walking and talking who've been shot in the head at close range with 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and because the bullets hit the skull at too much of an angle, the bullets failed to penetrate the bone and simply tunneled around under the scalp. One guy survived 4 hits from police 180 gr .40 caliber GDHP's, but was conscious and talking to me in the ER. If you think about it, this makes sense: our skulls (and those of our relatives in the animal kingdom) evolved as rounded/pointed shapes because these shapes reflect blows/missiles more effectively than square shapes. A .22LR soft lead bullet will punch through the skull at close range if it strikes the skull at close to 90 degrees. Now, I'm sure you increase your wiggle room in terms of angle if you ramp up the velocity or use a sharp-shouldered WFN bullet, but even then you can't underestimate the design features of mammalian skulls. As Phil pointed out--and I will not comment on the number of bears, or beers, he has under his belt--a 9mm 147 gr bullet has more than enough punch to drill a hole thru the skull and into the medulla of any bruin walking this earth. But you'd best place that shot at an angle as close to perpendicular as you can manage, just to be sure.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Ranger
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Just a few observations. Critical to Phils observation is being able to hit your target. One thing to hit a paper target, he's got a LOT more experience being under pressure of a bear. I can tell you from experience, being in close proximity to grizzlys will definitely promote some Adrenalin in to the old blood vessels. They also don't help your shooting abilities. I agree that a good hard cast 357 is a bout minimum, but hitting the brain or CNS at a few feet is not an easy task. Takes nerves of steel. It doesn't hurt to be over prepared. I prefer rounds that start with a .4..
Any time a black bear decides to follow you, you better be on your game as that is a bear that is looking for an opportunity to have a picnic, with you as the primary meal. Black bears can get curious, and try to get a better look or smell, but they don't typically follow you. As Art is saying I especially don't trust black bears with pepper spray. Yes it may work, but the bear will be back once he's past the influence of the spray. When you are close enough to need the spray, I'd prefer a little more influence to determine the outcome.
What works for one bear may or may not work on another. I remember several years ago down on the Russian River a guy fishing only had a 9mm. He shot it several times and the bear eventually died, but it could have gone either way depending on proximity. It was a juvenile bear and they can be testy.
NRA LIFE MEMBER
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS
ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS!
"Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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...Lesson: soft points don't work in the forehead. A solid would have penetrated the skull. On another bear same circumstances,I shot it in the face with a 12 gauge with bb s at 12 yds. The bear was dead instantly with the whole head caved in. Lesson: shot guns really work. Next one will be with 357 solids. Report to follow. Well, yes and no. I've had analytical dealings with GSW's on human skulls more often than bear skulls, so you can take my advice with a grain of salt if you like. But the problem with punching through the skull is most of the time not so much due to the caliber or shape or construction of the bullet, but the angle at which the bullet strikes the skull. I've seen (and treated) guys walking and talking who've been shot in the head at close range with 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP and because the bullets hit the skull at too much of an angle, the bullets failed to penetrate the bone and simply tunneled around under the scalp. One guy survived 4 hits from police 180 gr .40 caliber GDHP's, but was conscious and talking to me in the ER. If you think about it, this makes sense: our skulls (and those of our relatives in the animal kingdom) evolved as rounded/pointed shapes because these shapes reflect blows/missiles more effectively than square shapes. A .22LR soft lead bullet will punch through the skull at close range if it strikes the skull at close to 90 degrees. Now, I'm sure you increase your wiggle room in terms of angle if you ramp up the velocity or use a sharp-shouldered WFN bullet, but even then you can't underestimate the design features of mammalian skulls. As Phil pointed out--and I will not comment on the number of bears, or beers, he has under his belt--a 9mm 147 gr bullet has more than enough punch to drill a hole thru the skull and into the medulla of any bruin walking this earth. But you'd best place that shot at an angle as close to perpendicular as you can manage, just to be sure. I absolutely agree about the angle of impact being a factor on penetration, but the "evolution" of the skull having to do with blows and missile strikes? I'd guess just getting out of the birth canal has a lot more to do with it. Square headed babies would tear a pu$$y up! As to the OP, a 9mm wouldn't bother me in the least.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Campfire Ranger
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I know on the first hand that a 100# black bear can/did take 8 124 grn gold dots and stand and look at me at 15 ft. (I have some of the slugs I will post pictures if I can find them. ) The bear stood on all fours looking at me and took 6 like he was being stung by bees no reaction of pain or so on. He slowly turned and walked away and took two more. 5 minutes later about 40 yards away he let out a death moan. You can pack what you want but I recommend 357 10mm 45acp and up. This is a pic of the two that were in the lungs. And yes bear on the coast of wa all bear are shot at any size as they eat a good number of fawns and elk calves. Whoa!!! That human baby is likely older than that bear baby! Lol.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Campfire Ranger
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ou ought to see how ineffective pepper spray or the much more powerful MACE products are on bad guys. Any bear is far stronger and tougher than any human. Well, you can't compare apples to oranges nor can you compare bears to people without some qualifiers. Pepper spray has a pretty good record on both bears and people the first time or two they get sprayed. But a mean man who's been sprayed before can learn to fight through it, especially if he's numbed up on booze and/or drugs. I have some direct experience in that line of research. An OC-naïve bear will usually respond as desired the first time you spray him, if you hit him right, and that should be the end of it... but if he comes back again you're unlikely to stop him with spray.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Outfitter
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Phil, Any words on your bullet testing? Kurt
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Campfire Member
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ou ought to see how ineffective pepper spray or the much more powerful MACE products are on bad guys. Any bear is far stronger and tougher than any human. Well, you can't compare apples to oranges nor can you compare bears to people without some qualifiers. Pepper spray has a pretty good record on both bears and people the first time or two they get sprayed. But a mean man who's been sprayed before can learn to fight through it, especially if he's numbed up on booze and/or drugs. I have some direct experience in that line of research. An OC-naïve bear will usually respond as desired the first time you spray him, if you hit him right, and that should be the end of it... but if he comes back again you're unlikely to stop him with spray. You took the words right out of my mouth. A mean human and a mean animal are a whole different can of worms. A human has far worse olfactory senses, and can think logically through what is happening. An animal is totally different. Most of the time OC has been wildly ineffective on people for me, personally. Angry animals on the other hand, like a sprinting pitbul or GSD, it works like a charm 99% of the time (there is always that 1%er). I have no experience with bears. I'm just adding to what DocRocket said, animals and people are two different...animals. Oheremicus, I'm also not sure what you mean about, "the much more powerful MACE products". I'd take OC any day of the week over a CN/ CS tear gas like MACE for use against an animal. There is a reason you don't see CN/CS being offered as bear spray. It works on the nervous system as opposed to OC, which works on the mucus membranes. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust a skin irritant against an animal wearing a tough hide or a thick fur coat.
Last edited by Jedi5150; 07/01/16.
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Campfire Tracker
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.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).
With comparable loads the 9mm far outperforms the .40...
********
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Campfire Tracker
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And, fwiw I killed several bears with a 9mm while on duty, only one of which was in a very bad mood. Maybe 12 feet and two to the head worked well. I have seen poor shooting account for more wounded bears than anything....Griz is another story. Hard cast bullets are the choice, but if you miss or are too slow it doesn't matter what you use...
********
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Campfire Ranger
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I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.
Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.
Just my opinion on the matter.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms Why would you shoot something with FMJ's if you were intending to kill it? I wouldn't have any problem showing a black bear 15 properly loaded 9mm's as fast as could pull the trigger at close range. Just my opinion on the matter.
"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
~Admiral Yamamoto~
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.
Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.
Just my opinion on the matter. How many Iraquis did you see shot with 45s?
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms Why would you shoot something with FMJ's if you were intending to kill it? I wouldn't have any problem showing a black bear 15 properly loaded 9mm's as fast as could pull the trigger at close range. Just my opinion on the matter. Hague Convention
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Campfire Ranger
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I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.
Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.
Just my opinion on the matter. How many Iraquis did you see shot with 45s? Zero, though I wish I was afforded the pleasure.
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If you can draw and fire your handgun into a 6" target at 7 yards 6 times in < 3 seconds you are on the right track. When you can do this on demand w/ the gun you carry all the time you have proved your potential matches your reality.
mike r I won't say its impossible, but in a realistic situation, to become aware of the threat, draw the weapon and fire 6 rounds into a small target at 7 yards or there abouts all in under 3 seconds, I think one would have to be beyond well practiced.. I don't recall my old IDPA times draw and fire, but thinking even shooting 1-2 times a month I was no where near that fast... But if you could, you should be well protected. It is actually quite doable w/ a reasonable amount of practice. In the backcountry I usually carry my Glock in an HPG kit bag and I have to train regularly to draw and fire 6 from it in< 3 sec. I dryfire from it while on the treadmill at least twice/ week. mike r Dryfire from a treadmill ?? I can't wait to give that a try.
Whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad.
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Campfire Member
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I saw Iraqis shot 5-6 times with FMJ 9mms before they were no longer a threat...this is an apples to Buick comparison, but it left me with zero confidence in the 9mm.
Better bullets and non-opium fueled bears changes the equation, but I still have zero confidence in the gangsta` 9.
Just my opinion on the matter. How many Iraquis did you see shot with 45s? Zero, though I wish I was afforded the pleasure. T-Inman, thank you for your service! You might have been similarly unimpressed with a 45. From what I've seen, most handgun rounds are underwhelming on human targets. The 9mm has a considerably bad rep among people who are forced to use FMH. A nice, hot round like a Ranger-t +p in 124 grain will have a considerably better effect than an FMJ, but as with all handgun ammo, shot placement is key (and luck). There have been numerous examples of 45ACP performing exactly as you described. Hollywood has us all filled with false expectations of handgun rounds. Just my .02 cents as a deputy sheriff/ coroner/ medic.
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Bear spray?
There's group that studied bear attacks and incidences, collected a ton of data and charted it. I watched their entire long video report. I'm not an expert but I'll repeat what I remember...
Their advice was:
- you have to carry something! Gun or bear spray, which ever you feel more proficient with, but every one in your party should carry something.
- the bear spray is more efficient protection than a gun. They clarified that this is all about being proficient with what you carry.
After watching the report I now carry bear spray. I'll have a lightweight revolver on me too but it's not my primary bear defense and I'll tell you why.
If I'm backpacking and I reach an area that has poor visibility I'll simply unholster my bear spray and carry it in my hand, at the ready. I can't comfortably do that with my handgun.
Also, the risk of running into another hiker with gun drawn is very uncool imo but having the bear spray dawn is non-threatening.
I see people out there with nothing at all to guys carrying all sorts of heavy artillery but I don't judge. I figure I'll carry what I'm comfortable with and mind my business.
I worked on a road job in Yellowstone for 4 month. Only time I seen bear sprayed deployed was when a Nutty flagger girl deployed a can by accident. In the front of her carhart pants. Worked good, she was down to just panties and a tee shirt in no time running for a creek!!!!!! She was a strange person to start with and this did nothing to allure her to others, but it was funny and broke up the work day!!!
Last edited by wyoming260; 07/01/16.
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.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).
With comparable loads the 9mm far outperforms the .40... Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Having lived with and among big bears for nearly 40 years I would say that normal situations with them is not really comparable to those with inner city humans. The ability to draw your weapon quickly is not usually an issue as there is no reason to not have a weapon already in your hand if you perceive a threat. And a bear poses no threat if it is still at 7 yards. Or even 3 yards ! Notice that my pistol is still in the full flap holster as I attempt to scare these two sub adults away from the airplane. And there are at least 3 other adult bears just outside of the photo. If you can hit something the size of a 12 oz can or grapefruit multiple times in rapid succession, at 10 feet or less you should be relatively safe. I find tossing items into the air and shooting them is a good practice for instinctively hitting smallish, moving targets . And just why the hell are you parking your plane at a bear feeding station?????? 
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night.
I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC Betcha you do have griz in Colorado. You just don't know it. All bears are elusive, generally. At least the good ones are. I have between 4 and 10 brown bears in my immediate area of my home here in Sterling. And it's fishin time, right now. Saw a brownie track in the driveway this morning. Haven't actually seen a bear in years. Here. Good neighbors! There were "no grizzlies in Northern Idaho" when I was USFS summer trail crew there in 1967 and 68. Ha! And she had cubs, so there was a male around! In period 78-80 I was in gunsmithing school in Lakewood. A bow-hunter had to hand-kill with his arrow a griz that was on him. - said griz of course did not exist at that time in Colorado. Officially. Hard to argue with a hand-stabbed carcass, tho.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Tater
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Having lived with and among big bears for nearly 40 years I would say that normal situations with them is not really comparable to those with inner city humans. The ability to draw your weapon quickly is not usually an issue as there is no reason to not have a weapon already in your hand if you perceive a threat. And a bear poses no threat if it is still at 7 yards. Or even 3 yards ! Notice that my pistol is still in the full flap holster as I attempt to scare these two sub adults away from the airplane. And there are at least 3 other adult bears just outside of the photo. If you can hit something the size of a 12 oz can or grapefruit multiple times in rapid succession, at 10 feet or less you should be relatively safe. I find tossing items into the air and shooting them is a good practice for instinctively hitting smallish, moving targets . And just why the hell are you parking your plane at a bear feeding station?????? The Silvers were running !! Plus bear photographers were having fun
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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I've never sprayed a bear with either peper spray or a CN/CS weapon. But I have spayed more than just a couple of people with both CN and CS tear gas. In fact, in order to allowed to carry or use them, I was sprayed with both.
That and I've seen both CN and CS used by several others on people. Those same people tell me pepper spray is alot "nicer" and not nearly as effective on people. It was adopted by law enforcement because tear gas was very unpopular, or, in other words, pepper spray is more politically correct.
Very emotional people, or those under the influence of some drug/alcohol do not "think/reason their way through being sprayed." If you were ever sprayed with either you'd know what I'm refering to. With CS gas, the biggest problem is straying on your feet and not vomiting.
Bears, to me at least, are far tougher/more emotional, etc. than people. Since I've seen and experienced such a poor record for CN/CS teat gas on agitated people, I have no desire to gamble with my safety by using it on a bear. E
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Campfire Kahuna
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Thats what my wife carries in AK if she isn't carrying a 329 PD.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Not much to add but any pistol is not a bear stopper. I have only shot one black bear with a 45 colt with a Corbon load.
I have pulled a pistol several times on grizzlies and am so glad I did not need to do the deed. This was when I was a fly fishing guide on the Unalakleet. Bears there were hunted and harassed by the locals so less of a problem then elsewhere.
Whenever clients were on their own and I loaned them a pistol I always instructed them to wait until they could insert the muzzle into the right nostril of the bear and this would provide the proper angle. If this didn't work I suggested saving the last round for yourself, all this to get their attention and avoid a serious situation. Just glad no one had to do this.
Forgot to add my other piece of advice. If you don't have claw marks on you I will gladly provide some with my fillet knife.
OK listen to Phil.
Last edited by Tejano; 07/05/16.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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peashooter I bought a Glock 20 and use 220 gr Cast loads by Buffalo Bore. Very popular up here 220 gr load and 14 of his friends! Easy to shoot well, and easy to throw it in my bag with 3 mags 45 rounds.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_003411.JPG) This party was unknowingly hosted by friends of mine. The guests were, you guessed it, Ursus arctos. The treats included: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_00409.JPG) ...oven cleaner, Aqua-Chem toilet chemical (w/ formaldehyde), urethane aerosol foam for appetizers, among other aerosol treats...WD-40, starting fluid, etc, etc. I guess I am less than impressed by what chemicals might do to an imminent bear.
Last edited by Klikitarik; 07/05/16. Reason: stupid spell-check
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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.40 has been proven to have better intermediate barrier penetration than 9mm or .45 so its safe to assume it would out penetrate the other two on wild animals (if using identical bullets in all three calibers).
With comparable loads the 9mm far outperforms the .40... Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh! Having done many tests on penetration and on real life situations, I can assure you that 40 caliber rounds were developed for the FBI merely to appease the rank and file....I stand by my statements...
********
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I will be hunting this year in Oregon with a 45/70 and my Remington 1958 cap and ball most of the Deer and Elk hunting seasons. I also will have a Bear and Cougar tag. hope to take a Deer with the cap and ball revolver if the distance allows.I won't shoot it over 30 yds. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a bear or cougar with the 44 Remington if close enough.
No doubt the 45/70 is up to the task.:-)
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Campfire Sage
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Having done many tests on penetration and on real life situations
+1 Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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This party was unknowingly hosted by friends of mine. The guests were, you guessed it, Ursus arctos. The treats included: ...oven cleaner, Aqua-Chem toilet chemical (w/ formaldehyde), urethane aerosol foam for appetizers, among other aerosol treats...WD-40, starting fluid, etc, etc. I guess I am less than impressed by what chemicals might do to an imminent bear. That's amazing. I mouth full of EZ Off would be nasty shidt!
I do not entertain hypotheticals. The world itself is vexing enough. -- Col. Stonehill
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Looks like my daughter's room.
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As I said, I have been doing a lot of testing and when completed and written up I'll check again to see if Lee Hoots is interested and if not will publish it elsewhere. But the simple answer to the question of whether or not a 9mm offers adequate protection against black bears, the answer is yes. Would it work on a 1000# brown bear ? It certainly will penetrate deep enough to reach the brain from any direction. And it should come as no surprise to anyone on this forum that bullet construction, sectional density and velocity are all major factors in penetration. I just saw this thread. Thanks very much for sharing your expert opinion! I’ve got no bear shooting experience, and I don’t have the time or, quite frankly, the ability to get good with monster caliber handguns or even a Buffalo Bore 180 hard cast out of my .357 SP101 (tried it a couple of times :)). I can hold my own with a semi-auto in service calibers, and practice stuff like shooting from weird positions and while moving, and shooting at moving targets. I like the idea of merely switching ammo and carrying my everyday guns while bowhunting or just tooling around in the woods. jwp475’s test using Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P 255 Hard Cast Flat Nose against water jugs got me thinking about merely doing an ammo change. Since then, I did his test using my gun, tested here. I also tested the 9mm +P Outdoorsman in both the Glock 43, tested here, and in a Glock 19, tested here. (As an update concerning the Glock 43, I recently was able to get two rounds to register over a chronograph, and I got (IIRC) between 1025 and 1030.) So, I am pretty sure these rounds will penetrate deeply in soft tissue, and I am looking forward to seeing what they do to skulls! I’ll pay for that data! The last couple of years I carried the G30 while bowhunting. I am carrying the Glock 19 more on pavement, so I am toying with carrying it in the woods this year. The black bears aren’t too big where I hunt, and there are no grizzlies. The biggest threat probably is a moose. Thanks again!
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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I wonder how well bear spray works from inside a tent if the bruin decides he wants a midnight snack? I'm guessing not too well. More spray may end up on the sprayer than the sprayee. Adds a Mexican flavor to the meal I guess.
Luke 22:36
εγώ δεν θα συμμορφωθεί
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I have no experience with bears, but would want to hurt him DEEP, a good semi auto pistol that I could shoot and was past 100% reliable with a hard flat nosed bullet is where I'd start looking.
Trump Won!
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I bought a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag with a 7.5 inch barrel after a close encounter with a black bear while bow hunting. In retrospect the bear wanted to get away from me as bad as I did from him. That big hogleg proved to be too big to carry on my hip and ended up in my pack where it was of no use.
I bought a Ruger SP101 .357 with a 3" barrel and it is small enough that I carry it most anywhere I go in the woods.
My point is that your chosen weapon needs to be comfortable and small enough that you actually carry it or you won't carry it. Colorado doesn't have Grizz so my .357 is plenty.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I had a black russian boar scare me so bad while bow hunting in a ground blind here on the farm I don't leave the house without a pistol on me, carried my little LW commander in 38 Super loaded with 125 gr Barnes copper hp's at 1341 fps a lot last fall and winter.
That roguey bastard had 3"s of tusks showing and weighed at least 250 lbs, he was a noisy jittery twitchy buckwild sombitch that had blood on his mind, the wind didn't give me away, glad he didn't smell me!
Trump Won!
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"It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."
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Any three would work fine if you wanted to avoid the agony of being killed by a bear, that is if you were planning on shooting yourself. Be sure to open your mouth wide. Stick the barrel into the mouth pointing upwards. Squeeze the trigger. Don't jerk the trigger and miss.
Last edited by Bugger; 07/21/16.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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how about the 45 auto with best load? no coments about 45 or just a mention.
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In the past 33 years of living and guiding on the Alaska peninsula from our families homestead I have never had to kill a bear in defense of live or property. DLP as the state refers to it. Two days ago I was guiding a married couple and we bumped into a bear at close range on our way to the fishing stream. We yelled and it ran but circled around and then charged. The couple were 10 or 12 feet behind me and the bear came out of the brush so close it was within 3 feet of my clients before I could shoot. They both intentionally fell to the ground just before I shot the bear behind the shoulder. It immediately spun and I continued shooting, all the while keeping the position of my clients in perspective. After six quick hits the bear turned and ran 20 yards and died . We were planning on a quick couple hours of fishing and rather than packing my normal S&W 44 Mtn gun I was packing a S&W 3953 dao auto with 147 gr Buffalo Bore 9mm ammo. ![[Linked Image]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/Grizskins/DLP_zpsawwhojen.jpg)
Last edited by 458Win; 07/23/16.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Phil,
Just curious, after this experience, have your feelings about packing a 9mm changed?
It's amazing after 33 years it would happen on a day you are packing a 9mm. I'm glad you were able to use it effectively.
Shane
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Double Wow  Good job Phil!
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My compliments Phil. Having spent some time with DOA S&W autos your using one of them and achieving multiple rapid hits is even more impressive!
I realize you've spent a vast amount of time around bears and no doubt finished off some wounded ones that were charging but what you did with a compact 9mm......well holy cow!
Me thinks this settles the OP's question for me anyway.
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Wowza! That is timely.
I too am curious about an autopsy. I did end up with a 40 S&W and am looking at the Buffalo Bore ammo. Think I'm done looking at it................
Thanks for the post.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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In the past 33 years of living and guiding on the Alaska peninsula from our families homestead I have never had to kill a bear in defense of live or property. DLP as the state refers to it. Two days ago I was guiding a married couple and we bumped into a bear at close range on our way to the fishing stream. We yelled and it ran but circled around and then charged. The couple were 10 or 12 feet behind me and the bear came out of the brush so close it was within 3 feet of my clients before I could shoot. They both intentionally fell to the ground just before I shot the bear behind the shoulder. It immediately spun and I continued shooting, all the while keeping the position of my clients in perspective. After six quick hits the bear turned and ran 20 yards and died . We were planning on a quick couple hours of fishing and rather than packing my normal S&W 44 Mtn gun I was packing a S&W 3953 dao auto with 147 gr Buffalo Bore 9mm ammo. Unreal!
When I die I hope I don't start voting democrat.
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I ordered some of that 9mm after reading your previous post on this thread and now feel like a genius. Thank you so much for sharing your life of genuine experience with us theorists.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Talk about remaining cool and collected! Wow!
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Campfire Ranger
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Um, that had to be a bit......nerve racking.
Glad it turned out well for you and your guests.
All six in the chest? Exits?
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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As I said, this only happened a few days ago and the clients have left and I still have to turn the hide, skull and paperwork over to F&G in King Salmon this week. Like any shooting incident, it will take a little time for all involved to process and is not something to seek notoriety for. But it can be used as a learning experience and I have yet to decided how much and where I want to share it.
It is a coincidence that this forum topic, , my recent testing of 9mm and 357 Buffalo Bore ammo and then this incident came about at the same time.
The quick takeaway is to use common sense, listen to advice gained by experience, and take time to become comfortable and confident with your weapon of choice.
Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore ammo, designed ammo for the "lessor" handgun calibers specifically for people who didn't want to expend the money and time to gain profeciency with large caliber handguns but still wanted something that gave them a resonable chance of surviving highly unlikely encounters like this with a handgun that they already own and are familiar with.
I had originally offered my article of my testing with the ammo to Lee Hoots, the editor at Wolfe Publishing, but he says he is not interested as there is not sufficient interest in the subject. I will eventually explore the possibility of working with AK F&G or somewhere where the topic is relevent.
Oh, and as much as I appreciated the light weight of the little 9mm, it's larger magazine capacity and ability to rapidly make multiple hits, I am not yet ready to give up either my S&W M-65 357 or my S&W 44 Mtn Gun ! And the jury is still out on whether a pistol like my son's Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh would have been an asset or a detriment as complete pass throughs could have endangered others. Plus I was able to achieve 3 hits with the 9mm, each eliciting a response from the bear, by the time it would have taken me to recover and shoot a second shot from the SA Linebaugh.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Glad everyone made it through the encounter okay. Definitely a hair raising episode.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
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SW 329PD for me with 240 grain 1200 fps limited expansion bullet. This was after much research.
I suspect that anything that makes a loud bang will work 99% of the time.
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Phil, what kind of bullet were they?
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Double Wow Good job Phil! TRIPLE WOW!  Good shooting, Phil.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/X0n16mr.png) WWP53D
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Buffalo Bore loads 147 gr hard cast bullets at 1100fps from a 4" bbl.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Holy crap! What a story.
Sounds like my Sig P226 with 16 rounds of that BB 147gr. just might be adequate after all.
I'd also pack an extra pair of titey whiteys.
Let's Go Brandon! FJB
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Oh, and as much as I appreciated the light weight of the little 9mm, it's larger magazine capacity and ability to rapidly make multiple hits, I am not yet ready to give up either my S&W M-65 357 or my S&W 44 Mtn Gun ! And the jury is still out on whether a pistol like my son's Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh would have been an asset or a detriment as complete pass throughs could have endangered others. Plus I was able to achieve 3 hits with the 9mm, each eliciting a response from the bear, by the time it would have taken me to recover and shoot a second shot from the SA Linebaugh.
Wow! I only come here about once an week and was checking this specific topic since I was thinking of ordering a box or two of the Buffalo Bore for the upcoming season. The timing and your response in this situation is incredible. I hope the couple you were guiding left a good tip!!!! It is ironic that you alluded to the multiple hits vs possible 1 hit (or miss!) with a larger weapon. The last time I fired my 44 magnum, I wondered if I would be able to get off more than one shot under duress due to the recoil and how quickly an animal/attacker could be on me. Thank you for sharing this experience. I am ordering a couple boxes pronto!
The truth angers those whom it does not convince
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[...] I had originally offered my article of my testing with the ammo to Lee Hoots, the editor at Wolfe Publishing, but he says he is not interested as there is not sufficient interest in the subject. I will eventually explore the possibility of working with AK F&G or somewhere where the topic is relevent. Looking at the hits this thread received, I believe Mr. Hoots is of his editorial rocker.
Member of the Merry Band of turdlike People.
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I was just in Juneau a few weeks ago and had my Glock 43 with buffalo bore ammo in it for hikes in the wilderness.
My friends thought I was stupidly under gunned. Now I feel much better about my decision.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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The BB ammo performed just as well from the Glock 43 and I did a lot of my testing with it as I knew it would be popular due to it's size and weight and actually had been carrying mine in the chest pocket of my Simms waders but the day of the incident was wearing hip boots so decided to take the S&W.
Another side note on my tests was that a lot of 9mm 115 gr fmj ammo , while not as deep penetrating as BB, was a pretty solid performer as well. And the little 30 cal Tokarev with steel jacket fmj was very close behind the BB 357 with 180 grs !
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Mr Shoemaker;
Could you please write several books about your interesting life in Alaska.
Thank you in advance
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In the past 33 years of living and guiding on the Alaska peninsula from our families homestead I have never had to kill a bear in defense of live or property. DLP as the state refers to it. Thanks for sharing your story. It certainly contributes to the knowledge base of many!
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Mr Shoemaker;
Could you please write several books about your interesting life in Alaska.
Thank you in advance I'll second that. mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Wow,Pretty impressive.I would like to read that article !.
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Phil, glad it worked out easy to get complacent living up here. I get used to my areas and often dont carry going to change my bad habits. Makes me feel better about my choice of the Glock 20 and 220 gr cast loads by BB. Take care Kurt
Did any of the 9 mm exit the bear?
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Has anyone used the 10mm Auto for bear protection?
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Campfire Kahuna
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[...] I had originally offered my article of my testing with the ammo to Lee Hoots, the editor at Wolfe Publishing, but he says he is not interested as there is not sufficient interest in the subject. I will eventually explore the possibility of working with AK F&G or somewhere where the topic is relevent. Looking at the hits this thread received, I believe Mr. Hoots is of his editorial rocker. Yup!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Did any of the 9 mm exit the bear?
I'm curious as well. Sounds like it very well may have been full length shot angles coming and going?
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Did any of the 9 mm exit the bear?
I'm curious as well. Sounds like it very well may have been full length shot angles coming and going? Talk about remaining cool on the stool MM, damn!
Trump Won!
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Probably the best advice you will get is to learn to carry and deploy BEAR SPRAY effectively.
When applied by competent people,with the right intent, common sense goes along wayt
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I have used bear spray on a number of occasions and do recommended it -- but in this situation, where the bear came at a full charge through the brush and only appeared when he was within 6 feet of me and was between me and the clients within a very tight space, I am not so sure how effective bear spray would have been.
I admit it probably would have been better than than nothing
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Phil, in the picture, the inordinate proportions of "the bear" and "the gun" belie the focus of one with the experience with both the animals and guns.
While I've had many handguns, I'm continually impressed by a good load out of a 9mm +P from my diminutive Sig 938.
Very good shooting.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Probably the best advice you will get is to learn to carry and deploy BEAR SPRAY effectively. And that is probably the worst advice. I am only suffering under the delusions created by two attempts on real bears though and my lying eyes may have deceived me...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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I have used bear spray on a number of occasions and do recommended it -- but in this situation, where the bear came at a full charge through the brush and only appeared when he was within 6 feet of me and was between me and the clients within a very tight space, I am not so sure how effective bear spray would have been.
I admit it probably would have been better than than nothing
Phil, did you see the study from Port Armstrong on using tazers to haze bears? Pretty impressive. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...y_Interesting_Bear_Hazing_A#Post10924746
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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I was just telling our local biologist about it yesterday. It was quite interesting. But I am not yet ready to give up my guns for a tazer with a blue dot lazer
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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![[Linked Image]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/Grizskins/incident_zps8ggwj2ms.jpg) Here is another photo showing the distances we were talking about. This is where we were standing and the dead bear can be seen in the background just left of the client
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Oracle
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Good thing you can shoot!
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Any three would work fine if you wanted to avoid the agony of being killed by a bear, that is if you were planning on shooting yourself. Be sure to open your mouth wide. Stick the barrel into the mouth pointing upwards. Squeeze the trigger. Don't jerk the trigger and miss. Get a lot of bear charges in South Dakota?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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I haven't ever been around bears, but have hunted where they live without incident. My question is why do people think that a handgun is more effective than bear spray-which, by the way, is 90+ percent effective from everything that I have ever read.
It is pretty easy to say a pistol is better, if you have never used it and are not absolutely confident in your abilities. Bear spray, is easy to master and effective when used APPROPRIATELY.
I would sure like to see a study of results compared after reading all the input from the Wyatt Earps on here.
You did not "seen" anything, you "saw" it.
A "creek" has water in it, a "crick" is what you get in your neck.
Liberals with guns are nothing but hypocrites.
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I'm gettin' the popcorn ready.......
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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I haven't ever been around bears, but have hunted where they live without incident. My question is why do people think that a handgun is more effective than bear spray-which, by the way, is 90+ percent effective from everything that I have ever read.
It is pretty easy to say a pistol is better, if you have never used it and are not absolutely confident in your abilities. Bear spray, is easy to master and effective when used APPROPRIATELY.
I would sure like to see a study of results compared after reading all the input from the Wyatt Earps on here. Bear spray has a ton of advocates, mostly for bear safety (not human safety from bears) and the claims are often beyond ridiculous. One ad I saw included the claim of turning bears from attacks at as much as 50 yards. The wind direction can make it completely useless, and that wind direction just happens to be the single most important direction... you are far more likely to stumble into a bear at close range if that bear is unable to smell you first. Big emphasis on APPROPRIATELY so you should understand there are a ton of things spray does not do. Not all bears are going to be turned by spray. Young insecure bears testing the waters are the most likely to need spraying and the most likely to leave because of it... but it is way too fickle to be relied on only. And 90% is not going to give me a warm fuzzy feeling in areas where I might easily see 100 bears in a day... A firearm pointed with the same APPROPRIATELY caveat will work virtually 100% of the time.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Pepper spray might work in many situations.
I carry a gun because I don't want to be trifling with a pissed-off bear in any situation. Especially when the wind is blowing 20-30+ mph, or I am awakened in my tent in the middle of the night.
I'll save the pepper for my food.
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Pepper spray might work in many situations.
I'll save the pepper for my food. These two statements sum it up for me. I've never had to shoot a bear but have been in a couple of weird situations at close range. A gun feels much mo' better than a can of spray. A person really needs to be within 20 feet of a 500+ plus bear to grasp how insecure a guy can feel - especially when there's no where to go.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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I was just telling our local biologist about it yesterday. It was quite interesting. But I am not yet ready to give up my guns for a tazer with a blue dot lazer As one who has felt the effects of a taser in a training situation, I can testify to its effectiveness on humans, but I have a couple of concerns about using one in a situation anything like the one Phil handled so adroitly with his 9mm. A taser is certainly powerful enough to take down a bear or a bull under ideal circumstances, but: First, a taser shoots out two fine wires with sharp probes, which must contact skin in order to guarantee that the electric charge is delivered to the subject. It requires both probes to hit the target. If only one hits, there is no circuit established and there is no effect on the subject. From Phil's pictures, it would be difficult in my opinion for the probes to reliably penetrate the brush, and even a stout blade of grass would probably stop or deflect a probe. Also, the bear's fur coat would be quite likely to keep a probe from making close enough contact with the skin. No contact, no shock. Additionally, you only get ONE shot, and there is no such thing as a quick reload. If the probes remain in the subject, however, you can pull the trigger additional times for additional shocks. Lastly, as soon as the "ride on the lightning bolt" (typically 5 seconds per trigger pull) is over, the subject, whether man or beast, is immediately back to 100% physical and mental capacity. Most humans decide to be more cooperative, but a bear might just be mad. I can see how a taser might be useful in a captive bear control situation, but have grave doubts it would be a good choice for bear defense in the field.
Last edited by wildhobbybobby; 07/27/16.
Life is like a purple antelope on a field of tuna fish...
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Pepper spray might work in many situations.
I'll save the pepper for my food. These two statements sum it up for me. I've never had to shoot a bear but have been in a couple of weird situations at close range. A gun feels much mo' better than a can of spray. A person really needs to be within 20 feet of a 500+ plus bear to grasp how insecure a guy can feel - especially when there's no where to go. Same here, if I had but a 9mm in my hand when a grizzly appeared at 6' I'd probably start shooting myself with the damn thing, there is NO replacement for experience!
Trump Won!
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Here is another photo showing the distances we were talking about. This is where we were standing and the dead bear can be seen in the background just left of the client I posted this photo to show exactly how close and thick things were. The bear appeared in full charge from where the photo was taken and both me and the client are standing where we were. The boar was already in full charge when he became visible and maybe, just maybe, if I had started spraying bear spray as he erupted he might have changed his mind. Fortunately he was making quite a ruckus on his way toward us so I had my pistol in hand. And for those who wanted to know about penetration here is a photo showing both the entrance and exit with the bullet still in place. this shot was not well placed as it was too far back and too high, but he was highly agitated and twisting and biting each time I hit him. ![[Linked Image]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/Grizskins/penetration_zpsx1a8jimz.jpg)
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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As I said, this only happened a few days ago and the clients have left and I still have to turn the hide, skull and paperwork over to F&G in King Salmon this week. Like any shooting incident, it will take a little time for all involved to process and is not something to seek notoriety for. But it can be used as a learning experience and I have yet to decided how much and where I want to share it.
It is a coincidence that this forum topic, , my recent testing of 9mm and 357 Buffalo Bore ammo and then this incident came about at the same time.
The quick takeaway is to use common sense, listen to advice gained by experience, and take time to become comfortable and confident with your weapon of choice.
Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore ammo, designed ammo for the "lessor" handgun calibers specifically for people who didn't want to expend the money and time to gain profeciency with large caliber handguns but still wanted something that gave them a resonable chance of surviving highly unlikely encounters like this with a handgun that they already own and are familiar with.
I had originally offered my article of my testing with the ammo to Lee Hoots, the editor at Wolfe Publishing, but he says he is not interested as there is not sufficient interest in the subject. I will eventually explore the possibility of working with AK F&G or somewhere where the topic is relevent.
Oh, and as much as I appreciated the light weight of the little 9mm, it's larger magazine capacity and ability to rapidly make multiple hits, I am not yet ready to give up either my S&W M-65 357 or my S&W 44 Mtn Gun ! And the jury is still out on whether a pistol like my son's Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh would have been an asset or a detriment as complete pass throughs could have endangered others. Plus I was able to achieve 3 hits with the 9mm, each eliciting a response from the bear, by the time it would have taken me to recover and shoot a second shot from the SA Linebaugh. I shot a grizzly on the Kelly River in 1988 with a 475 Linebaugh that came in on me while cleaning a moose. I was shooting a LBT 390 grain LFN that I cast out of wheel weights and water quenched. My friend hit the bear first with a 250 partition out of a 338 win. The bear went down and imediatley got up up as if spring loaded. From my angle I hit the bear in the back of the rib cage angling toward the off shoulder. At the shot the bear went straight down with a four legs straight out and never got up again. This was the first bear and moose ever shot with the 475 Linebaugh. I was impressed with the performance of these big bore revolvers then and now when loaded and shot properly. ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg) u Great job under pressure ,Phil!
Last edited by jwp475; 07/27/16.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I haven't ever been around bears, from everything that I have ever read Bear spray, is easy to master and effective when used APPROPRIATELY.  Regale us on your experience.
WWP53D
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Pepper spray might work in many situations.
I'll save the pepper for my food. These two statements sum it up for me. I've never had to shoot a bear but have been in a couple of weird situations at close range. A gun feels much mo' better than a can of spray. A person really needs to be within 20 feet of a 500+ plus bear to grasp how insecure a guy can feel - especially when there's no where to go. Same here, if I had but a 9mm in my hand when a grizzly appeared at 6' I'd probably start shooting myself with the damn thing, there is NO replacement for experience! That's the truth. I sent the story to a guy I know that has seen bears on TV and hunted deer once when he was about 14yrs old. He called and started with how he would have had blah blah, I said stop right there because you would have done the same thing I would have, chit your pants and blowed your damn feet off trying to drag whatever you have out of your holster. Those people were lucky to have 458Win with them. Had it been someone like me the only thing that wasn't injured by gun fire would have been the bear.
When I die I hope I don't start voting democrat.
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8 or so years back I met (now retired) WYF&G officer Bill Long. He had a long and storied history with F&G. We were hunting the Gros Ventre area and he was adamant that we carry bear spray as the bears were in the midst of a huge comeback in the area. He carried as his sidearm, a Glock 10mm. Mine will be loaded with 200gr Double Tap hardcast flat noses while we hunt Alaska in 6 weeks time. I sure don't expect it'll be needed but there's nothing else I'd rather carry.
I think it's hard to beat that combo of power, firing speed, bore size and number of rounds available from a magazine.
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Had it been someone like me the only thing that wasn't injured by gun fire would have been the bear.
That is really funny <G>
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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Phil, really glad you were able to work all the wrinkles out in your most recent endeavor. There really isn't anything like experience in tough spots.
I don't view spray, pistols, or long guns as mutually exclusive. Each has a use. My experience using spray is that It gets on you every time you use it. I can deal with that, although I don't like it. Spray has been very effective for me on grizzly bears, black bears, moose, and dogs. I like it. I don't view it as spray vs guns. Here in the lower 48 States I really don't think effectiveness boils down to young or old bear, habituated or not. The failures I am familiar with regarding spray mostly involve environmental conditions. Although how you define a failure is important to me. Each tool has a use. Certain tools are useless in certain situations. I don't ever go looking for a fight with a bear simply armed with a pistol.
I feel D Smith's evaluation of spray vs guns is unfair in the situations it compares. Wounded bears vs a bear some jogger runs into for example. Not really apples to apples. But i do like spray, for me it's easy to use, light, and cheap. But it doesn't fit every situation. While it has always worked in the situations I chose to use it, there are certain situations I would not even attempt using it.
I've killed a few grizzlies at spitting distance. I know they aren't monster brown bears but bear with me... Some went well, others did not. The outcome in these situations hinged entirely on the initial shots. In my experience the first or second shot were all that mattered. Maybe with a smaller more controlable round it would have been different??
I really like a good horse and good dog in bear country. They are way more aware and effective than I. But your brain isn't a bad tool to use in bear country either.
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wwy, I admire your experience and agree with you about bear spray. I still carry a can on most trips. I prefer it's non-lethal, educational effect and have used it a few times, mostly to educate young bears or deter "teenage" boars testing how far they can push humans.
Spray, and the Kimber "PepperBlaster", can be carried and used, even in campgrounds and other public areas, by people incompetent with firearms, without the fear of someone getting shot. they are also perfect around town and rural areas with agressive dogs too. And from my limited use, they are effective.
But no one tool is perfect and if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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wwy, I admire your experience and agree with you about bear spray. I still carry a can on most trips. I prefer it's non-lethal, educational effect and have used it a few times, mostly to educate young bears or deter "teenage" boars testing how far they can push humans.
Spray, and the Kimber "PepperBlaster", can be carried and used, even in campgrounds and other public areas, by people incompetent with firearms, without the fear of someone getting shot. they are also perfect around town and rural areas with agressive dogs too. And from my limited use, they are effective.
But no one tool is perfect and if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. Absolutely agree, especially the concern over armed incompetents in crowded areas. Kodiak has far more than its share on the road system.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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It's not just Kodiak, all of Alaska has more than it's share !
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night.
I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC I spoke with a Game warden a few years ago about grizzlies here. He said officially there are none here, but the department was investigating claims of a guide, who had a ton of experience guiding in Alaska, that he had seen a Grizzly in the northern part of the state.
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OK where in Anchorage can you buy BB 9MM 147 Gr cast bullet loads? Shipping not an option. Checked and called all the shops I know, Grace does not show it as an option?
When you ask for it be prepared for what are u thinking ?
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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As I said, this only happened a few days ago and the clients have left and I still have to turn the hide, skull and paperwork over to F&G in King Salmon this week. Like any shooting incident, it will take a little time for all involved to process and is not something to seek notoriety for. But it can be used as a learning experience and I have yet to decided how much and where I want to share it.
It is a coincidence that this forum topic, , my recent testing of 9mm and 357 Buffalo Bore ammo and then this incident came about at the same time.
The quick takeaway is to use common sense, listen to advice gained by experience, and take time to become comfortable and confident with your weapon of choice.
Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore ammo, designed ammo for the "lessor" handgun calibers specifically for people who didn't want to expend the money and time to gain profeciency with large caliber handguns but still wanted something that gave them a resonable chance of surviving highly unlikely encounters like this with a handgun that they already own and are familiar with.
I had originally offered my article of my testing with the ammo to Lee Hoots, the editor at Wolfe Publishing, but he says he is not interested as there is not sufficient interest in the subject. I will eventually explore the possibility of working with AK F&G or somewhere where the topic is relevent.
Oh, and as much as I appreciated the light weight of the little 9mm, it's larger magazine capacity and ability to rapidly make multiple hits, I am not yet ready to give up either my S&W M-65 357 or my S&W 44 Mtn Gun ! And the jury is still out on whether a pistol like my son's Hamilton Bowen 475 Linebaugh would have been an asset or a detriment as complete pass throughs could have endangered others. Plus I was able to achieve 3 hits with the 9mm, each eliciting a response from the bear, by the time it would have taken me to recover and shoot a second shot from the SA Linebaugh. I shot a grizzly on the Kelly River in 1988 with a 475 Linebaugh that came in on me while cleaning a moose. I was shooting a LBT 390 grain LFN that I cast out of wheel weights and water quenched. My friend hit the bear first with a 250 partition out of a 338 win. The bear went down and imediatley got up up as if spring loaded. From my angle I hit the bear in the back of the rib cage angling toward the off shoulder. At the shot the bear went straight down with a four legs straight out and never got up again. This was the first bear and moose ever shot with the 475 Linebaugh. I was impressed with the performance of these big bore revolvers then and now when loaded and shot properly. u Great job under pressure ,Phil! The right shaped hard cast bullet with proper meplat even at moderate velocities is indeed a stellar killer, good shooting to you both JWP and Phil!
Trump Won!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Pepper spray might work in many situations.
I'll save the pepper for my food. These two statements sum it up for me. I've never had to shoot a bear but have been in a couple of weird situations at close range. A gun feels much mo' better than a can of spray. A person really needs to be within 20 feet of a 500+ plus bear to grasp how insecure a guy can feel - especially when there's no where to go. Same here, if I had but a 9mm in my hand when a grizzly appeared at 6' I'd probably start shooting myself with the damn thing, there is NO replacement for experience! That's the truth. I sent the story to a guy I know that has seen bears on TV and hunted deer once when he was about 14yrs old. He called and started with how he would have had blah blah, I said stop right there because you would have done the same thing I would have, chit your pants and blowed your damn feet off trying to drag whatever you have out of your holster. Those people were lucky to have 458Win with them. Had it been someone like me the only thing that wasn't injured by gun fire would have been the bear. LMAO  , you GD right Bearcat, I watched a Wyo mountain grizzly from the next draw over[125 yards] for a couple hundred yards, and knew then and there I was in the presence of a killing machine, the feeling of impending and instant death was mind numbing, I could feel and hear my heart beat! Anyone that can't respect that is one dorky bastidge that needs to go back home and get back on the couch. I can't imagine the level of cool resolve and experience one would have to posses dealing with one like 458 did at 6 damn feet, and yes, those clients couldn't have won a better guide in a damn lottery!
Trump Won!
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Campfire Oracle
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OK where in Anchorage can you buy BB 9MM 147 Gr cast bullet loads? Shipping not an option. Checked and called all the shops I know, Grace does not show it as an option?
When you ask for it be prepared for what are u thinking ?
3 Bears Kenai carries it but is out. Might have it in a week or so. They have the 124 gr. as does Gator Guns. FYI if you get down this way. I can drop off at artsy's if I make a trip to the big city.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Brad,
We don't have grizzlies in Colorado (I think)In the summer I sometimes carry a titanium 4" .357 with 7 180gr Buffalo bear buster bullets. In 40 years of hunting/camping I only have had one bear experience. I was scouting for MD in late August camped in my little Hilleberge UNA. Warm night left the front open. My attack beagle was asleep at my feet. I awoke to a pretty good sized black bear snuffing my face. yikes! I made some short of sound, bear bolted. dog woke up ran over my face. .357 was useless as it was outside my bag. I thought about bringing it in the bag but didn't want to have a dream and end up blowing my nuts off....long night.
I have carried bear spray in areas were there were grizzlies. My daughter was a wrangler in Yellowstone and the Tetons for 3 or 4 years and she always carried spray but never had to use it.
LC I spoke with a Game warden a few years ago about grizzlies here. He said officially there are none here, but the department was investigating claims of a guide, who had a ton of experience guiding in Alaska, that he had seen a Grizzly in the northern part of the state. 1979 a man named Wiseman was mauled by the grizzly he killed somewhere east of Pagosa Springs, Colorado almost into New Mexico. I remember thinking that it was possible that bear traveled through the 55 mile territory of railroad I was working at the time. Everyone said there wasn't any grizzly around but looking at the area I couldn't savvy why not. Sometimes on the news it is mentioned that our troop casualty rate might be say, 1%. I have long concluded that if you are the one involved it is 100% to you. My thinking on bears is along the same bent and has been ever since that guy was mauled by the bear that wasn't there.
Last edited by Captain; 07/30/16.
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The Bear season in Oregon starts August first. I have been climbing a ridge to a vantage point on a private cattle ranch to look for bears in the wild fruit trees, and the black berries. I am up there until is it's too dark to see and then hike the 45 minutes back the the ATV for the several mile ride to the ranch gate. On my way down Saturday, I was using the trail the cowboys use for the horses, they keep it limbed and open enough to walk at a good pace with a headlamp. Down the trail I go, when I hear a loud Woof and the unmistakable sound of a bear clicking it's teeth. I carry a .44 mag S&W mountain gun with crimson trace grips. As I looked around toward the sound I could see this bear,... head down ears back,... and ready to rock and roll. I'm at 15 yards, Maybe..... maybe 12? I froze to see her next move, removing the revolver and putting the red dot on the brain. ( one reason you must always have the holster on the outside of your jacket or coat, no time to fumble with zippers and buttons. It's not as easy to hold steady as you might imagine. She keeps clicking her teeth, and now I am hearing the sounds of bark scraping on the tree behind her. Certainly cubs climbing up. I cannot turn to walk away and take my eyes off of her. I'm in a bit of a bind in the dark having to wait on her to turn and leave. It was not a comfortable situation to turn my back on her for me to walk away. I reached for my iPhone to use the flash on her. This was the resulting picture. It did nothing by the way, she was just locked on me, in the starting blocks waiting for my next move. Thankfully the cowboys trail was rather nice, except for the sticks and rocks, it was not a bad path. I was able to slowly walk backwards hoping I did not trip and fall. I made it around a bend in the trail and then hauled my butt up the ridge to the ATV. I'm not sure how the rest of the season will go with her and her cubs in this place. If you are serious about the use of a handgun for bear protection, regardless of what you choose, the crimson trace grips are a priceless addition to the design. It would have been extremely difficult to use open sights in this situation, and I have trijicon night sights on this gun too. However with a head lamp on those night sights are not usable it's too bright without being properly aligned for the sights to be functionally visible in the dark. Things you should figure out before you are in this situation! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/IMG_7697.jpg)
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The Bear season in Oregon starts August first. I have been climbing a ridge to a vantage point on a private cattle ranch to look for bears in the wild fruit trees, and the black berries. I am up there until is it's too dark to see and then hike the 45 minutes back the the ATV for the several mile ride to the ranch gate. On my way down Saturday, I was using the trail the cowboys use for the horses, they keep it limbed and open enough to walk at a good pace with a headlamp. Down the trail I go, when I hear a loud Woof and the unmistakable sound of a bear clicking it's teeth. I carry a .44 mag S&W mountain gun with crimson trace grips. As I looked around toward the sound I could see this bear,... head down ears back,... and ready to rock and roll. I'm at 15 yards, Maybe..... maybe 12? I froze to see her next move, removing the revolver and putting the red dot on the brain. ( one reason you must always have the holster on the outside of your jacket or coat, no time to fumble with zippers and buttons. It's not as easy to hold steady as you might imagine. She keeps clicking her teeth, and now I am hearing the sounds of bark scraping on the tree behind her. Certainly cubs climbing up. I cannot turn to walk away and take my eyes off of her. I'm in a bit of a bind in the dark having to wait on her to turn and leave. It was not a comfortable situation to turn my back on her for me to walk away. I reached for my iPhone to use the flash on her. This was the resulting picture. It did nothing by the way, she was just locked on me, in the starting blocks waiting for my next move. Thankfully the cowboys trail was rather nice, except for the sticks and rocks, it was not a bad path. I was able to slowly walk backwards hoping I did not trip and fall. I made it around a bend in the trail and then hauled my butt up the ridge to the ATV. I'm not sure how the rest of the season will go with her and her cubs in this place. If you are serious about the use of a handgun for bear protection, regardless of what you choose, the crimson trace grips are a priceless addition to the design. It would have been extremely difficult to use open sights in this situation, and I have trijicon night sights on this gun too. However with a head lamp on those night sights are not usable it's too bright without being properly aligned for the sights to be functionally visible in the dark. Things you should figure out before you are in this situation! While I have CT crips on several hand guns and really like them they are illegal for hunting in AK which makes them only practical in dedicated bear ad bad people defense guns. It is not legal to shoot grouse with one, for example.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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In this case it works for me, I'm a bow hunter and only carry this S&W for this exact purpose.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In this case it works for me, I'm a bow hunter and only carry this S&W for this exact purpose. I understand completely and agree it is the way to go, just pointing out how it relates to AK bear protection. And obviously I am not suggesting bear defense and hunting are the same thing.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I've carried that revolver for all my recreational bow hunting. AS well as my job in Alaska and in South Africa, and in Wa. State as the wildlife manager for Weyco.
It has been carried about 1000 miles for every time I had to pull it from the holster for a "situation". In cases like the one above, Ive no complaints with the weight or the burden of packing it. That little revolver has killed hundreds of bears in it's life with me. Somethings just fit with a guy. Anyone that finds that "fit" will have greater success then just depending upon the stamp on the barrel, or the brand of ammo.
As for Pepper spray, It only took one time to have the wind blow it into my face and be blinded while in a bad situation to never EVER want to have that happen again!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As for Pepper spray, It only took one time to have the wind blow it into my face and be blinded while in a bad situation to never EVER want to have that happen again!
Exactly!
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
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Police carry pepper spray for the same reason that hikers, backpackers and outdoorsmen carry it. It is often the best solution to diffuse a situation without having to kill the threat and the lethal means is in no way compromised.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Police carry pepper spray for the same reason that hikers, backpackers and outdoorsmen carry it. It is often the best solution to diffuse a situation without having to kill the threat and the lethal means is in no way compromised. Exactly!
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Ranger
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And for those who wanted to know about penetration here is a photo showing both the entrance and exit with the bullet still in place. this shot was not well placed as it was too far back and too high, but he was highly agitated and twisting and biting each time I hit him.
Phil... I have no doubts about a hard cast 9mm bullet's ability to penetrate, so I'm not surprised at the entry-exit wounds. What I would like to know is what internal structures did the bullet transect internally? Clearly some vascular structure(s) was/were hit, but with that rapid incapacitation I wonder if you might have hit the thoracic spine?
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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And for those who wanted to know about penetration here is a photo showing both the entrance and exit with the bullet still in place. this shot was not well placed as it was too far back and too high, but he was highly agitated and twisting and biting each time I hit him.
Phil... I have no doubts about a hard cast 9mm bullet's ability to penetrate, so I'm not surprised at the entry-exit wounds. What I would like to know is what internal structures did the bullet transect internally? Clearly some vascular structure(s) was/were hit, but with that rapid incapacitation I wonder if you might have hit the thoracic spine? As a quick point, brown bear bones are nothing like most expect. They are relatively light and far lighter than ungulate bone. They are probably as tough and flexible as bone gets, but not hard nor dense.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Sage
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Bump for Lee Hoots.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Outfitter
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Phil's use of the 9mm on bear reminds me of the old advertising posters for the .38 Super back in the 1930s..."will stop anything" with a 130 grain FMJ-RN bullet running 1080 fps in 1929 to 1300 fps by the mid 1930s... Penetration seems to be everything.
Interesting when one looks at the numbers...seems everyone wants the heaviest .44 or .45, anything under 300 grains being "marginal".
The sectional density of a 147 9mm is 0.166. This is the same as the following:
.357 150 grains
.40/10mm 190 grains
.410 200 grains
.429 210 grains
.452 230 grains
...most considered "light" for the caliber.
..and yet this 9mm fully penetrated the bear..
So a question...if when carrying a heavier handgun is it really all that necessary to go for the most velocity one can muster with the heaviest bullet, maybe sacrificing accurate rapid followup shots for more than necessary muzzle energy?
I am also wondering if in this instance, looking at the shot placement, that the bear was hit through the kidneys or liver...very painful and rapidly debilitating hits for sure.
And a question for Phil...although the outcome of this situation was very positive, would you rather have had the .44 Mountain Gun?
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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OK where in Anchorage can you buy BB 9MM 147 Gr cast bullet loads? Shipping not an option. Checked and called all the shops I know, Grace does not show it as an option?
When you ask for it be prepared for what are u thinking ?
The one shop in Eagle river, no clue of its name? They didn't have em? I swear they had 10mm BB last time in there. Local shop in Delta Junction had quite a bit of BB last time too, but not thinking I saw 9mm either... may have to get teh shop to order it in on the next order.... Or buy cast bullets and load.....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Bump for Lee Hoots.
Travis [bleep], I was drinking coffee as you could plainly see if it had been good beer or whiskey I'd have had to pepper spray you
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
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Great skill, great nerve and a fair amount of luck save the day it would seem. If the bear had gone for Phil instead of the clients, would there have been time to get that many shots off? The 9 worked this time but holy cow I'd feel better with something out of a bigger longer barrel!
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Even a blind hog finds an acorn every now and then. I'm sure when this first started he wished he had brought something other than a 9mm.
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Campfire Ranger
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Isn't Lee Hoots the one that said a 270 was inadequate as a mule deer cartridge?
Seems he doesn't quite decipher things accurately now and again. An article like that would be the main seller for that magazine issue.
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Campfire Ranger
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Great skill, great nerve and a fair amount of luck save the day it would seem. If the bear had gone for Phil instead of the clients, would there have been time to get that many shots off? The 9 worked this time but holy cow I'd feel better with something out of a bigger longer barrel! Why a longer barrel?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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The one shop in Eagle river, no clue of its name? They didn't have em? I swear they had 10mm BB last time in there..
Boondocks.
Last edited by David_Walter; 08/10/16.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Longer barrel - as in rifle
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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I have a bullet mould for a 286 gr.
lead bullet for my 35 Whelen.
I am betting that with lino type or Lyman #2 alloy that it should really penetrate well.
whelennut
One of my neighbors told me that they have a nocturnal black bear that they are nervous about on their property. She says that by looking at trail cam pictures it would weigh 600 lbs live weight.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Art, I'm glad you mentioned the strength of the bones comparing bears to equally heavy ungulates. No contest! A bear is rather fragile structurally compared to a equal size Hoofed animal.
One difference outside of that I have noticed as well. The mental strength of the Bear is by a fair margin much stronger then the will of a vegan hoofed animal( not pigs).
A few Exceptions come to mind, like Cape Buffalo..... but the vast majority of ungulates do not have that same dare I say almost a vengeful attitude towards humans that Ole Ursus can exhibit!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire Tracker
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9mm bear defense I just came across the story yesterday of a guide killing a grizzly with a 9. Good read
You've got to hand it to a blind prostitute
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If you read this thread from the beginning, it might ring a bell.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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Wait, a guide killed a bear with a 9mm?
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Campfire Ranger
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“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Ranger
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Wait, a guide killed a bear with a 9mm? When wielding a 9mm v. bears, the old adage about 'age and treachery' comes to mind.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Alaska Ammo has BB 9 MM 147 GR HC 907-868-7676 in Anchorage
only place I found it in stock.
kk alaska
Alaska 7 months of winter then 5 months of tourists
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Longer barrel - as in rifle Got it.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Phil,
How does the Buffalo Bore load that you used compare to something like American Eagle 147gr FMJ's in relation to penetration?
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Travis, I don't know how all the loads stack up but would guess that equal bullet weights and velocities should give similar penetration. In my limited testing I was suprised to find find that in most test material that standard military grade 115 gr fmj bullets were not far behind.
And fmj .30 Tokarev loads gave great penetration.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Phil, with the round-nose FMJs - the way you were testing them - were you getting straight penetration (straightish?) compared to the Buffalo Bore flat noses?
All things are always on the move simultaneously. - W.S. Churchill
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Phil,
Darn glad to hear all came out of the episode safe and unharmed. Sounds like quite an exciting rodeo! I
Bob
Enjoy life now -- it has an expiration date.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Travis, I don't know how all the loads stack up but would guess that equal bullet weights and velocities should give similar penetration. In my limited testing I was suprised to find find that in most test material that standard military grade 115 gr fmj bullets were not far behind.
And fmj .30 Tokarev loads gave great penetration. That was my guess. Thanks. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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So Phil, are you a big believer in quantity now? Would you rather have an auto over a revolver, assuming good bullets were used?
That is kind of my takeaway from the story. I'm thinking my G21 with 13 rounds of 255gr BB hard casts is a pretty decent choice.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Autos and revolvers each have their strengths and weakness' for a personal protection.
A large caliber revolver is like a heavy double rifle. both powerful and reliable but limited in the number of shots it holds
A semi auto can be made slim and lightweight and capable of quickly firing two or three times the amount of ammunition.
You pays your money and takes your chances .
No mater your choice, you still have to be able to shoot it both quickly and well.
For a hunting handgun, especially for large game, I prefer a large bore revolver.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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So Phil, are you a big believer in quantity now? Would you rather have an auto over a revolver, assuming good bullets were used?
That is kind of my takeaway from the story. I'm thinking my G21 with 13 rounds of 255gr BB hard casts is a pretty decent choice. Not Phil or even close, but I have a comment about that. If you're going for quantity, consider not just how many rounds the gun holds, but how fast you can deliver them. A 30 round magazine in a semi-auto is useless if the gun is as slow to shoot as a big bore revolver. I think your G21 is a step in the right direction, but I encourage you do experiment with follow up shot speed of different loads. I also carry a G21 sometimes, and found the heavy 255gr loads really slowed down my follow up shot speed. Some compromise is needed between power and speed, and what works best for me may not be best for you, but it's something to keep in mind.
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So Phil, are you a big believer in quantity now? Would you rather have an auto over a revolver, assuming good bullets were used?
That is kind of my takeaway from the story. I'm thinking my G21 with 13 rounds of 255gr BB hard casts is a pretty decent choice. Not Phil or even close, but I have a comment about that. If you're going for quantity, consider not just how many rounds the gun holds, but how fast you can deliver them. A 30 round magazine in a semi-auto is useless if the gun is as slow to shoot as a big bore revolver. I think your G21 is a step in the right direction, but I encourage you do experiment with follow up shot speed of different loads. I also carry a G21 sometimes, and found the heavy 255gr loads really slowed down my follow up shot speed. Some compromise is needed between power and speed, and what works best for me may not be best for you, but it's something to keep in mind. THAT is the conundrum ! Self defense is not the same a hunting. Just as CQB differs from sniping . If bear hunting with a handgun I would chose my son's 475 Linebaugh but to carry on my hip every day for 12 hours I want something lighter and smaller. it is usually my S&W 629 44 Mtn Gun or S&W M-65 357. In this last case I was not expecting any trouble but didn't want to go totally unarmed so was carrying a 9mm loaded with Buffalo Bore ammo that I had previously tested and knew would penetrate deep enough if necessary. I am not recommending a 9mm - but if that is all you have and can shoot it then make sure to stoke it with dependable ammo.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So Phil, are you a big believer in quantity now? Would you rather have an auto over a revolver, assuming good bullets were used?
That is kind of my takeaway from the story. I'm thinking my G21 with 13 rounds of 255gr BB hard casts is a pretty decent choice. Not Phil or even close, but I have a comment about that. If you're going for quantity, consider not just how many rounds the gun holds, but how fast you can deliver them. A 30 round magazine in a semi-auto is useless if the gun is as slow to shoot as a big bore revolver. I think your G21 is a step in the right direction, but I encourage you do experiment with follow up shot speed of different loads. I also carry a G21 sometimes, and found the heavy 255gr loads really slowed down my follow up shot speed. Some compromise is needed between power and speed, and what works best for me may not be best for you, but it's something to keep in mind. Learn how to shoot a big bore revolver properly and you would be amazed at how fast one can be shot and still hit as this video clearly demonstrates https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2014/7/15/video-the-454-casull-challenge/
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,165 |
I firmly believe less than 1% of the shooting public has the ability to do that. I openly admit my handgun abilities are not there, and will never be. And I respectfully hold my hat in my hand to those fellas (and gals) who can. I just have to get by knowing what I'm able to do with my single action Ruger SBH .44Mag or Glock 35 loaded correctly.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,879
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,879 |
I firmly believe less than 1% of the shooting public has the ability to do that. I openly admit my handgun abilities are not there, and will never be. And I respectfully hold my hat in my hand to those fellas (and gals) who can. I just have to get by knowing what I'm able to do with my single action Ruger SBH .44Mag or Glock 35 loaded correctly. I'd wager a high percentage could if they put forth the effort
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
All i can say is i would rather have a 9mm than have nothing if attacked
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,917
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,917 |
As I have said all along, I am not specifically recommending ANY caliber, but recommending a handgun that YOU are FAMILIAR AND COMFORTABLE WITH and then choose the HEAVIEST and DEEP PENETRATING bullet you can find.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,879
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,879 |
As I have said all along, I am not specifically recommending ANY caliber, but recommending a handgun that YOU are FAMILIAR AND COMFORTABLE WITH and then choose the HEAVIEST and DEEP PENETRATING bullet you can find. This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,382
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,382 |
Good advise for any defensive situation. Pick the right bullet, practice with the right gun and the right ammo, go forth And be unafraid
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,096
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,096 |
got charged a while tracking a 275 lb. boar that this boy shot and wounded. I put seven 230 gr. 45 ACP hardball rounds out of a Glock 36 in him as he charged from less than 15'. ![[Linked Image]](http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/DSC03111.jpg) Shortly after that. No more Mr. Nice Guy......... Glock 20SF in 10MM S&W, 15+1, 200 grainers. ![[Linked Image]](http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/glenn1221/pistolas/KC9A4731.1_zpspaexnbit.jpg) works for me! JAPPFT, GWB
Last edited by geedubya; 08/16/16.
A Kill Artist. When I draw, I draw blood.
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,755 |
Nice shootin! Looks like it got the job done!
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,296
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,296 |
Semper Fi
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