Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB; came across your article on the 45 Colt

What I posted is relevant to your question. I didn't have a picture of the M-25, but the cylinder thickness is even less than the 44, I feel one can deduce a enough from the info posted to applie to the M-25

Sorry Doc, but I dissagree, S&W forum drinks the cool aid. The original 240 grain 44 loads from Remington and Winchester were advertised at 1550 FPS and 1650 FPS respective according to Brian Prace. Brian also claimed the Winchester load got about 1600 FPS in real revolvers. These are the loads that the M-29 had much trouble with when fed a steady diet. Most 240 grain factory loads today chrono between 1180 and 1240 FPS from my 6 1/2" M-29. I dono consider thes loads to be anything more than +P 44 special loads. I expect at least 1400 FPS in my 44 mags.

A 260 grain 45 colt load @1200 is a top end in my opinion for the M-25 if one shoots very many of them and expects the revolver to hold up over a period of time.

No big bears in Texas. Occasional, usually shy lions.

The S&W 25-7 is about my favorite .45 Colt Revo:



I don't see much point in hot-rodding it. In fact I'm thinking I should work up a snake shot load for the first couple of cylinders, then expanding hollowpoints for the next 4 chambers.

Now, if this guy ever got aggressive, I'd have to reconsider the .480...

John, I agree that there's a lot of Kool-Aid drinkers on S&W Forums... but the S&W expertise here on 24HCF is just as highly diluted.

I don't know why it is that here on 24HCF there is a good deal of very solid rifle info for riflemen, but when it comes to handguns, the nutjobs start crawling out of the woodwork at the merest whiff of a "Glock vs 1911" or "44 Magnum vs 45 Colt" controversy. Before you know it you get idiots saying they can run their SA handguns faster than anyone can run a DA, that .44 Mag/.45 Colt/whatever caliber is the best, and folks jump up to say "I've never shot an N-frame 45 Colt or Glock, but here's my opinion anyway, based on what A Guy once told me at the gun shop..."

This is why I abandoned the Handguns forum here a year ago and why I generally avoid handguns discussions in other 24HCF forums. I am sincerely regretting ever getting involved in this thread, for that matter.

Whitworth, Bryce Townsly and others are on video firing an FA-83 with full power 300 grain factory loads on target around 3 seconds or less. Singles actions can be fired fast

I do not know why some folks think you have to have your case loaded to max.A 325 grain .452 going 1,000 FPS will kill anything in North America at close range.

A 22 long rifle will kill anything in North America also. A 325 at 1000 FPS will not penetrate as deep nor break as much bone as it will at 1200 FPS or faster. If talking hard cast I don't like to run them past 1400 FPS at the most b

Crap. I was gonna deep-six this thread but jwp475 called me up on the phone and persuaded me otherwise. But this commentary is not relevant to the OP on this thread so bear with me for going along with the hijack.

First thing: I never said you can't run a SA gun fast. I just said you can run a DA gun faster, especially one-handed. And one-handed is the emergency default mode for any handgun. The two guys I mentioned earlier who survived bear attacks did so by firing their DA handguns with the strong-hand only, multiple shots. It was all they could do to hang onto their guns, and if they had had to move their thumb to cock the hammer they both said they would have lost the guns... they had their handguns in a phuqin' death grip.

Years ago a friend and I did timed 5-shot runs with two handguns: my Ruger Bisley .45 Colt, firing 300 gr handloads that I had chrono'd at 1300+ fps, single action; and his Taurus Raging Bull, firing 300 gr handloads at 1300+ fps double-action. We were both very comfortable with both guns and with firing a LOT of HEAVY loads at that time. Bottom line, we could get 5 shots off single action in low 3-seconds, but DA we were both able to break 2 seconds. I don't recall the times for one-handed firing exactly, but it was something like 12 seconds for the SA gun and about 4 seconds for the DA gun.

Second thing: regardless of how much folks may like their .44 Magnums, the plain fact is that a .429 caliber has to work a LOT harder for its ballistic supper than does a .454, .475, or .500 caliber handgun. The pressures generated in the .44 are simply higher, and the smaller bullets don't do the same work as the bigger bullets of greater caliber.

The other plain fact is that most people can't tell the difference in performance between a .44 Magnum and the bigger calibers, because they can't handle the recoil of these big handguns to the point of expertise, and so have no real basis for comparison. There is no shame in this; I have had to hang up my heavy loads in the past several years, because my arthritis in the base of my right thumb simply won't let me shoot them any more. But when I could shoot them well, there was no doubt in my mind that the bigger hammers pounded nails way better.

But to return to the OP's point... the real advantage of the .45 Colt is that you can load it to moderately warm velocities for various modern handguns and it will serve you very well for hunting and/or defense, without blowing up your guns or your hands, and without beating your joints into powder. Just following the simple broad guidelines I posted several days ago, and following some judicious loading data from any credible source will get you where you want to go.

As jwp just pointed out, a heavy .452-.454 bullet at 1200 fps will significantly outperform a 250 gr bullet at 1000 fps, but without significantly greater "pain penalty" in recoil, in a properly set up revolver such as a Bisley or a M625 with good grips. Is the extra performance worth it? Not really, unless you need it, in which case it's well worth the price of admission. Which is why I'm happy to carry a M625 Mountain Gun or 5" Ruger Bisley with 300 gr WFN's @ 1200 fps as my hunting sidearm.

When it came to rifles of 338 Win. mag class, and 44 magnums with standard 300 grain full throttle loads I used to be quite recoil tolerant. Then I learned about LBT bullets from Ross Seyfried and got into the big & heavy thing. Long seated WLN's out of my Redhawk 44 mag, various big ones from Ruger 45 Colt Bisleys, you know the drill. It was a lot of fun loading them up there. For a while.

One afternoon at the range my nervous system said enough. Sort of like when the 2001 Space Odyssey computer named Hal told the astronaut "I can't let you do that Dave." I was done. I had to relearn how to shoot, starting back from a 22.

I've built back up a good way, but now there's that constant nag in the back of my mind that I must stifle every time I squeeze a trigger, no matter the cartridge.

Spot on mathman, one indeed can over do it.

I certainly don't think as such. I started the thread to discern between two N frames and what they can or can't take or are they similar. That's it.

I very much enjoy shooting mid pressure loads in both my .45 Colts and .44 mag.

I am glad you did.

I think John Taffin admitted some years ago that he had some chronic pain issues in his hands, likely from shooting many heavy revolver loads. It made it hard for him to type.

I shot a .454 Super Redhawk with heavy factory loads, and they were driving 300 JHP's at over 1600 fps on my chrono. 6 shots was damn enough, too

My big bruiser now is a .480 SRH. I've shot it with 370's at about 1300 fps, and that's damn enough too for 6 shots, unless I'm wearing a PAST Glove. I also now have one of the Bisley 5 shots in .480, and I'm probably going to throttle my .480 loads down to around 1200 fps with 350-370gr cast WFN's, and look at Accurate #9, maybe even Power Pistol instead of the slow burners. Speer has a 275gr .475 bullet, and that seems plenty for deer, or Mountain lions.

Mostly I've gone back to 250-280 grain bullets at a 45 acp speed.

Since we're splitting hairs, let's be clear, .45 fans love to poke fun at the ".429 Magnum" but if we're talking cast bullets then we're talking .430-.431" bullets, not .429".

It is theory if all you're talking about is meplat percentages. I'm talking about the dimensions of the bullets that are actually on the market. I don't know of a commercial bullet caster doing 80% meplats for the .45. Let us not forget that if you do get that 80% meplat, you're going to lose penetration. You can't get a more apples to apples comparison by looking at WFN's and WLN's from the same friggin' manufacturer. The meplats on the 320-335gr bullets from CPBC are the same .340-.345", .44 and .45.

Another example:
320gr CPBC WLN .44 at 1280fps - TKO - 25.2, meplat .340"
335gr CPBC WFN .45 at 1225fps - TKO - 26.5, meplat .345"

The .44 penetrated 13% deeper and let's be realistic, there's no difference between a .340" and a .345" meplat.

It IS simple math if you actually look at the meplats on the bullets we can buy, rather than what they're "supposed" to be. You're not casting either so we're stuck with the same bullets. I'm not cherry-picking, I'm giving specific examples of where a .45 is not only not "bigger" than a .44 but where it can actually be smaller. I'm also giving you specific examples of where .44 bullets performed better and penetrate deeper. I'm sorry if that is not congruent with your perception. The point being, the two are so close as to be interchangeable. The .45 is not always bigger, it does not penetrate better and it does not handle heavier bullets. Those are undeniable facts. If there are ANY examples of where "the .45 is a bigger hammer" doesn't hold true, then it's not a true statement.

When people say, "the .45 is a bigger hammer", they're not talking about meplat size, which is highly variable. They're talking about bullet diameter, which is a constant. Nobody ever brings up meplat diameter. You can say, "when all things are equal" but things seldom are. If we have to be casting bullets from Veral's molds for all things to be equal, then that has to be stipulated.

The .44 and .45 handle bullets the same weight and in the same velocity range. The .475 and .500 are a big step up in diameter, bullet weight and pressure. Big difference between a 430gr .475 or 525gr .500 and a 355gr .44 or 360gr .45.

Differences between rifle cartridges firing expanding bullets at high velocities are irrelevant. However, the difference between a .338 and a .300 is greater than the difference between a .44 and a .45.

You have told me over and over again that .45's just penetrate better than .44's, regardless of weight or design. I can't find a single instance where that proved true in my testing. It was quite the reverse. IMHO, you .45 fans made up your minds years ago and refuse to hear anything else. Newsflash, I'm a .45 fan too (own 7 .45Colt's and 5 .45ACP's) and I used to believe all that Linebaugh crap too. Except that I accepted that it's not true any more, if it ever was, based on facts.



Need to work on your reading comprehension, no one ever said that. YOU may be able to run a DA faster than an SA but I fail to see an advantage. IMHO, this is a training issue.

Yes, do look up the video of the guys shooting .454's as fast as they can. It may be an eye opener for closed minded DA shooters.

No we are talking .429 because that is the size of the bore and that is the size after leaving to bore.

An 80% of bullet diameter meplat is larger on a 45 bullet than it is on a 44 bullet. I did a lot of math research to verify this! LOL

The difference between 44 and 45 bullets is about like the difference between 45 and 475, is that not a step up with a bigger hammer or not?

I shot an Asian buffalo with a 500 JRH with a 425 grain flat point hard cast and a friend shot one with a 475 Linebaugh with a 420 grain hard cast.. The guide said the 500 hit harder than the 475. Anyone that is astute at observation says the same thing about the 45 when compared to the 44 on large heavy game. Larger diameter matters, believe it or not.

Then we should be talking about .450's instead of .452's.

Sure it is, when it's actually 80%. Show me a commercial cast .45 bullet with an 80% meplat. Beartooth has a few. Ya know that big, bad 365gr Garrett load? It's .335". Yes, the .45 is bigger, if it's bigger. That's the problem, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. When it's not, there no difference between the two. The .44 still penetrates better. Why ignore that point?

I don't know how significant two anecdotal examples are. I've shoot deer with a .54cal that reacted the same way as those shot with a .250. So what?

Admit it, you made up your mind about this a long time ago and won't be swayed. I don't have any 'need' to believe one way or another. I'm just looking at the facts. You .45 fans seem to really NEED to believe the Linebaugh rhetoric.



This is why I don't like arguing with you, I have to repeat myself and you never reply to a comment you don't like. I've addressed this many times, including my last post. The .475 is a significant step up in bullet weight, velocity and pressure. Hard to argue that a 430gr .475 at 1350fps is not a "bigger hammer" than a 360gr .45 at 1050fps.

Whereas the .44 and .45 use bullets the same weight at the same velocity and the .45 is only 'sometimes' larger in diameter. It's real hard (unless you have ulterior motives) to argue that a 360gr .45 at 1050fps is a "bigger hammer" than a 355gr .44 at 1130fps. Not when the .45 is slightly larger in diameter (0.015") but the .44 penetrates deeper. Smells like a wash to me.

I have to admit I have learned a lot here. Given that Craig is using .431 bullets in his .44, I think that maybe if you start with an even larger bullet, say a .550 with a comparable meplat you could end up with a 44 that would surpass all other handgun cartridges.

I bet Craig was fun to watch in kindergarten with square pegs and round holes..

It is also a significant step up in diameter. The 44's and 45's have significant weight for their bore diameter. I don't like arguing with you because you never concede appoint and never admit you are wrong

Yep...

Some need to ditch the whole meplat theorem, run some round noses through some critters or better yet some really pointy stuff, then decide if the 312, 358, 410, 430 and 452-454 make the same size hole....


Of course the concept of the Keith bullet is lost on some too.

Probably a symptom of sim testing in donut jelly....