Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB; came across your article on the 45 Colt

I really enjoyed the article on the .45 Colt. I have also read (on the internet) that .45 Colt brass was thin but never believed it. Now I know how that started.

Question: do you feel that the S&W Mountain gun can digest higher pressure loads over 14,000 psi?

.45 ACP has a SAAMI of 21,000 psi and I have heard of folks altering the cylinders on the MG to accept moon clips.

Is 21,000 psi just a warm load or +P territory?

Edit to add: the 629 .44 magnum is an N-frame as is the 625.

THANKS!

Where's the article?

Not (obviously) JB, but I've seen articles by Brian Pearce and Ross Seyfried that stated that modern .45 Colt brass like Federal and Starline is as strong as .44 Mag brass. Pearce has written a good bit about the strength of various .45 revolvers and includes suitable loads with his articles. IIRC, he has said that in weaker guns like the N frames, the .45 Colt can be loaded safely to the same pressure levels as the .45 ACP. I suggest you look up his stuff for the specifics and data. Strong brass ain't going to help if the gun isn't strong enough to begin with. If you need a magnum, get one.

Wow, someone let JB write a handgun article? It's a banner day for sure!

Why you want to ban JB? LOL

Ouch.

Calling a modern S&W N-frame a "weaker gun" is a bit silly, IMHO. A Model 25 or M625 in .45 Colt is made of the exact same steel as a Model 29 or 629 in .44 Magnum, and the web thickness of the cylinders on the .45 Colt is only slightly less thick. I am at work right now so I can't give you the exact numbers. But the point is that you can load a M25 or M625 to much higher than SAAMI levels for this old caliber if you know what you're doing.

In addition to the writers you've named (Pearce and Seyfried) John Linebaugh has done extensive testing (read, has blown up a bunch) of revolvers with heavy .45 Colt loads and gives some very good actual guidelines on how heavily you can load a S&W N-frame in this caliber. Check out his website if you want to get specific load data.

I run .45 Colt handloaded ammunition in 4 classes: Black Powder, "light", medium, and heavy. In Model 73 rifles and First Generation SAA handguns, I stick with BP or light smokeless loads (~800 fps using a 255 gr bullet). I use "medium" loads in my M625 and M25 S&W's (255 bullet at 1050 fps or so), and "heavy loads in my Rugers and M1892 reproduction carbines/rifles(270-300 gr bullet @ up to 1300 fps).

One doesn't need to mollycoddle the N-frame 45 Colt guns. My "medium" loads are well above the mouse-fart factory loads you can buy at the gun shop, but are no danger to the steel or the timing of a good N-frame. And they are powerful enough for any hunting or self-defense application in North America short of the great bears and the bison. They kick less than a .44 Magnum and produce comparable real-world hunting ballistics.

Too many folks underestimate this cartridge and the modern guns designed for it.

They're not on the same strength class as .44 frame Blackhawks, Redhawks, or Contenders, which is why data in loading manuals is serparated into two classes. They can be loaded to give more power that factory loads and so loaded are very effective on big game, according to Pearce who has taken a lot of game with his SA Colts and others in the same class. To the best of my recollection, the load levels you cite for your N frames fall within the range Pearce uses. The stronger guns can be loaded to about 30,000 psi, well over what's safe in .45 caliber N frames and so loaded, again according to Pearce, hit game harder than .44s due to the larger diameter of the bullets.

I suggested that the OP look up the articles himself so he's not operating by the seat of his pants and risking premature wear on his gun or worse. I'm not dissing N frames in any way, but like Popeye, they "am what they am, and that's all that they am". That "am" is pretty good, I think.

JB may not be posting here for a few days, the Invitational was hard on him. When we compared clickers, he thought he was ahead until I told him that each of my clicks represented 5 kills...

Doc, OK exactly what I thought. Max loads in the Blackhawk (have an old 3 screw .45) and warm in the 625 MG. What I didn't get was the 625 and 629 being built on the same frame yet the 625 not able to take warm loads (according to many internet experts). And no I do not have a need to run any load hot to those that might say buy a Redhawk.

Per John L.:

Sakoluvr... thanks for citing Linebaugh! I can't tell you how many times I've copied & pasted those exact quotes (among others) on the Handguns forum here on 24HCF; I've given up on trying to edjimicate the dumbphuques who can't understand these simple concepts.

I talked to JL on the phone one time, about 15 years ago, when I was seriously into handloading for my Rugers to ultra-maximum power levels. John set me straight on more than a few subtle points, which was really nice of him. The best thing about Linebaugh's site is that you can count on everything he writes as solid fact. He has done so much more practical research on heavy handgun loads than anybody else I know of it's incredible. So when he says, "Do this, but avoid doing that," you can pretty much take that to the bank.

One of the things Linebaugh and I agreed on was that if you're going to shoot really stout .45 Colt loads in factory revolvers, you need to do it in a Ruger BH Bisley or a Freedom Arms gun. At that time the Super Redhawk wasn't readily available in .45 Colt, but it's obviously in the same category. But the Bisley grip frame does wonders for taming recoil, and that's why I stuck with that platform. When you get up to loads of 325 gr at 1350 fps you need the Bisley grip, and even then it can become seriously painful.

In a S&W N-frame like the 625 Mountain Gun I favor as my hunting sidearm lately, recoil in even the warm loads can be painful with a poorly-designed grip. I've messed around with a lot of different grips for this application, and at this point have settled on the Skeeter Skelton type "Coke Bottle" grip shape. The beefy fat grip shapes like the Jordan or Herter's Roper beat the hell out of my thumb, FWIW. Different hands require different grip shapes, and when you get into heavy-kicking sixguns grip shape can be crucial.

I chased heavy 45 Colt loads for several years, but over time I grew tired of the abuse my hand and wrist took. I came to accept Linebaugh's words of wisdom about the utility of loads barely into the warmish category... a 250-265 gr bullet at 950-1000 fps. There's not much you can't kill with that load. Paco Kelly, another big bore revolver guru I've spent time on the phone with, killed his first zebra in Africa (as well as many hogs, black bears, and even cattle here in America) with a .45 Colt load of that power.

I rarely shoot the HVY loads in my 45's any more, not necessarily because I don't like the recoil, but because I can get anything done I need to get done with a moderately warm load. Same thing for my 44 Magnums, for that matter. For personal defense (whether against 2-legged varmints or quadrupeds) a DA revolver is superior to any SA; and a DA gun in .44 or .45 is far more controllable with a moderately hot load than a heavy load. This is largely why I carry the 625 instead of one of my Bisley's when I'm rifle hunting in bear country. Just my opinion, mind you. I ain't John Linebaugh, so take my advice FWIW!

An article by John Linebaugh on loading for the S&W Model 25-5 .45 Colt. It contains loads pushing 300 and 320 grain bullets past 1100 fps although those are considered absolute maximum.

Gun Notes - Smith & Wesson Model 25-5

Heavy bullet loads in the .45 colt by John Knutson, these use Ruger Blackhawk and the Bisley variation.

Heavy Bullets in the .45 Colt

Another article by John Linebaugh on heavy loads in the Ruger Blackhawk.

Gun Notes: The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Legend


A note on "Ruger level" loads. Ruger threw a monkey wrench into that description with the mid-size New Vaquero frame and the recent Lipsey's Flattop models based on it. From (IIRC) 1972 on, all Blackhawks including .45 Colts were built on the large .44 Magnum frame. But with the reintroduction of the mid-size cylinder frame one has to distinguish between Ruger level for New Model Blackhawks and a lower level for New Vaqueros and Flattops.

Don't quote me on this but IIRC in Pearce's article on the new convertibles he recommended 23 kpsi as a safe maximum for .45 Colt loads in the Flattops since that was the SAAMI max for .45 ACP +P loads which Ruger chambers in the same size cylinder. As Pappy348 said above 30 kpsi is considered the safe max for "Ruger only" loads in the bigger New Model Blackhawk .45 Colts.

Jim: I believe you're correct on the 23,000 PSI number from Pearce's article. I don't quote his number because he hasn't done the gun-blowing-up studies that Linebaugh's done, but I expect it's a good one.

I've not bought or shot one of the medium-frame Lipsey's guns, but I'd like to one of these days.

The "ordinary" DAs (not Redhawks etc.) are also much easier to carry than the big SAs. Had a 5 1/2" Bisley that was very nice, but carried like an anvil. All that steel in the grip didn't help the balance either. I always chuckle a bit when I read about the use of the big SAs as bear protection. They've got the power, no doubt, but pulling that big iron out and thumbing the hammer with 500 lbs of irate bruin sitting on you has got to be tough. Like to see one of the shooting schools come up with a drill for that situation; maybe a nail-studded round bale rolled over the student.

These days, I carry a 7-shot .357 L frame, which is plenty for anything hereabouts, and carries easy. The DA pull is smooth, and the SA pull just "goes" with no perceptable movement. The Mountain guns are really nice, but opportunity and resources haven't synced for me as yet. A .45 would be perfect, as I keep a bunch of bullets around for my inline anyway.

They are definitely not in the same strength class. I wouldn't feed an N-frame my 30,000 PSI pet loads for any duration. Keep in mind, even with the endurance package, the N-frame was designed around the .44 Special and somewhere around 15,000 PSI.

I have spoken with two men who successfully defended themselves during a bear attack (not a charge, an in-contact attack). Both used DA revolvers in their strong hand while fending the bear off with the other hand/arm. Both fired multiple shots into the bear's head/neck area. Such a defense would be near-impossible with a SA revolver.

Much of what Linebaugh wrote comparing the .45Colt to the .44Mag no longer holds water.

A 6" model 29 is 2oz heavier than a 4 5/8" Ruger Bisley .44Mag.

You guys obviously haven't spent much time with SA's to think they carry awkwardly or are slow to manipulate.

How's the leather business?

I always figure one of the worst things to deal with in an attack would be how to retain the weapon long enough to hopefully kill the bear.

Looking into some kind of lanyard for Carolyns Glock for that reason...