Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JB; came across your article on the 45 Colt

They are indeed, both facts that YOU refuse to accept.

1. Some .45 bullets do have larger meplats than some .44 bullets. Some do not. For the millionth time, it depends on the individual bullets in question.

2. It is a fact, pressure is irrelevant. What the .44 does with slightly higher pressure, the .45 does with more powder. Net result? The same. The pressure difference is meaningless.

You act like I haven't read all that Linebaugh stuff, numerous times. I've linked to it, numerous times. Long before you ever came into the picture.

Some .41 bullets do indeed have larger meplats than some .44 or even .45 bullets. A few from Beartooth are WLN's with meplats larger than a .44 or .45 LFN.

On that note, it's Father's Day and the old man is waiting. My work is finished and I'm leaving the .45 Kool Aid drinkers to spend the rest of the day arguing with reality. Hope your fairy dust doesn't run out.

No they are not facts. One totally ignore diameter which is a fact. Pressure is iilrelevant only to you.

You ignore all that doesn't fit your agenda

1. The diameter of the meplat is the only diameter that matters. Prove otherwise.

2. Pressure is irrelevant, as long as both are loaded within their relative safe levels. All the Linebaugh rhetoric about less pressure is marketing hype.

Feel free to explain what difference less pressure REALLY makes.

If meplat is the only thing that matters then feel free to explain how a 230 grain fmj is able to leave a full caliber hole through an antelope. I know this because I have seen it done. You can't prove otherwise,because that is what it does and there is no flat meplat.
If meplat is all that matters which the 80% of diameter, meplat of a 45 is .362". 80% meplat of .429 is .343" 45 wins!

Less pressure at the same ballistic pressure means less noise and muzzle blast, something many notice including myself

You are the one that needs to prove your point

I have to say that I've never heard anybody who knows anything about internal ballistics say that "pressure is irrelevant". In fact, this statement pretty much contradicts everyone I know who has any passing familiarity with internal ballistics. In other words, it's untrue, and frankly, it's dangerous. Now, if you want to follow that lunacy to its limits, that's your business (and your gun, and your hand, and your face). But don't expect to be able to write this on an open forum and expect folks to leave it unchallenged.

When it comes to heavy handguns, pressure is the demon we all have to be wary of. People like Shrapnel have learned this the hard way (hence his alias here on the 24HCF). The handloader who exceeds pressure data does so at his peril.

Sure, you can drive a 300 gr cast bullet out of a .44 to the same velocities you can with a .45, but there is a very real price to be paid, and that price is measured in pounds per square inch. An example, from Hodgdon's data: 320 gr WFN .45 Colt bullet velocity is 1330 fps, and chamber pressure is 32,400 psi; a 320 gr WFN .44 Magnum bullet at 1345 fps generates chamber pressure of 44,000 psi. Virtually identical velocity, but at a much, much higher pressure in the forty-four.

You apparently scoff at this, calling it "slightly higher" pressure. But there's nothing "slight" about a pressure difference of nearly 12,000 PSI, and that difference is going to translate into substantially sharper recoil and amplified blast experienced by the shooter, and markedly accelerated wear and tear on the gun.

Now, you can probably get away with the wear and tear on the gun if you want to. Use a solid Ruger or maybe a Magnum Research or Freedom Arms revolver, and it'll handle the pressure without much fuss. Especially if you don't shoot it much, which I can pretty much guarantee will be the case for 99.9% of shooters, because that amount of blast and recoil is noxious to an extreme.

Your assertion that "advances in bullet design" have made the .44 Magnum the equal of larger bore revolvers is utter nonsense. The fastest loads are still generated with powders in the same class, such as H110/WW296,and VV N110 (funny how VV named their heavy handgun powder with that number!) and they all still generate the same kinds of pressures (both maximum and pressure curve). If it were otherwise, we'd be seeing lower pressure numbers in the data, but we don't.

Your statement that "... the .44 does with slightly higher pressure, the .45 does with more powder" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In the first place, as I've stated already, it ain't "slightly higher" pressure. In the second place, you cannot, by any twist of fallacious reasoning or semantics equate this very much higher pressure to the use of a few more grains of powder in the bigger .45 case. The comparison is so ludicrous, it ain't even apples to oranges... it's like comparing apples to the Dow Jones price of United Fruit stocks.

Again: I don't give a rat's ass if you personally blow yourself up with overpressure .44 loads. You wouldn't be the first nimrod I've taken care of who's blown his hand up with hot loads (I've treated 2 of them, if you must know... and the second guy now goes by the nickname "Lefty"). And I don't give a rat's ass whether I "win" an argument with you here on the 24HCF.

But I do care, and care a lot, about the guy who's reading this thread and doesn't know the difference between someone who's truly done a lot of heavy handgun shooting and hunting and successful & safe load development, like jwp475, or Whitworth, or myself, and someone who doesn't know he's playing fast and loose with explosives, like you have declared yourself to be.

Max load from Hogdon reloading web site shows a max load for a 325 grain 44 bullet of


Grains22.0 H-110
Velocity (ft/s)1,368
Pressure38,100 CUP

The 45 colt Ruger only loads or not loaded to this pressure level but the 454 is

Grains26.0 H-110
Velocity (ft/s)1,511
Pressure34,300 CUP

That is 200 FPS more velocity with 3,800 Les CUP pressure it is not meaningless.

The 454 loads were loaded to over all length of 1.760" this overall length and case capacity can be equal led in 45 colt brass

Good Lord man, talk about taking a comment WAAAAY out of context. You are arguing against a point I never made or even implied. The context is right there in the statement you quoted.

As I said, not implied, the pressure difference between the two is meaningless. It nets the shooter nothing. There is not less recoil or muzzle blast. Comparable loads are comparable in both areas. I cannot tell a lick of difference between the two. I noticed this the first time I lit off a "Ruger only" load in a Vaquero. Even if there was a difference, it would be VERY subtle and I'm pretty sure if you can handle a load out of one, you can handle the other. How do I know this? From taking the Pepsi challenge. Shooting two identical Rugers, one right after another, with the comparable loads listed below. Not because I have an agenda, not because of wishful thinking, not because I needed one conclusion over the other. From objective testing. When I set about this testing, I did everything I could to remove all variables possible. The two guns in question are the same length and were worked over by the same gunsmith at the same time. The only difference is one started life as a Bisley Vaquero, the other a Super Blackhawk. I was looking for the truth and would've accepted any outcome. Can you say the same? Do you even for one second consider that I might have a valid point? From my perspective, if anyone has an agenda, it's you two.




Yes, advances in bullet design have leveled the playing field. How do I know this? It's all in print in Hodgdon's data. These are all STANDARD PRESSURE PUBLISHED LOADS from either Hodgdon or Linebaugh. If you want to look at something interesting, look at the starting loads for the .44, compare pressures and velocities to the max loads in the .45. Very, very similar. Below are the max loads tested, fired over a chronograph, on the same day.

.44 - 355gr at 1130fps
.45 - 360gr at 1060fps

.44 - 330gr at 1226fps
.45 - 335gr at 1225fps

.44 - 320gr at 1282fps
.45 - 325gr at 1241fps

.44 - 310gr at 1314fps
.45 - 300gr at 1176fps (should be closer to 1300fps)

.44 - 300gr XTP at 1156fps
.45 - 300gr XTP at 1267fps

.44 - 250gr Keith at 1296fps
.45 - 260gr Keith at 1290fps


Based on the data above, do you see ANY advantage whatsoever between the two cartridges???

Not from my experience. It would be interesting to hear what guns/loads were compared to come to that conclusion. I have my theories about how folks come up with that.



I'd love to see someone prove that there is actually a long term difference between the two. Those angels are dancing again.



Read the table I posted.



I don't know how you figure that. I thought it was pretty obvious. When both cartridges propel bullets of the same weight to the same velocity, the .44 is doing it with less powder and more pressure, while the .45 is doing it with more powder and less pressure. I don't see how this can even be argued.



Nonsense. I have never used, condoned or promoted the use of over pressure loads.



I care too. Which is why I have to refute misinformation when I see it. Do you really think you're talking to a moron here?

Wow! Here's a quote for the ages...

I chased heavy revolver loads for a long time, looking for maximum velocity. Since then I've seen the results of animals hit with big slugs at 1200-1300 fps, and I just don't see the point of loading revolvers beyond those velocity levels, regardless of their design strength.

Today, unless I specifically wanted expanding bullets for an application, I'd be content with something that drives the hard cast slugs 1200-1300 fps, for any large North American game. These are non-expanding bullets, whether you drive them 1200 or 1500 fps, and adding more fuel doesn't accomplish much. The nose profile certainly can affect tissue damage but that's independent of the powder charge. That level of loading is fine in a strong .45 Ruger or Freedom Arms, or a .44mag S&W. It's not appropriate for a .45 S&W, or a Vaquero, let alone a Colt SAA clone.

Says the idiot who thinks the Colt SAA was designed in 1871.

Do you have pressure data for these loads?

As I said, those are all from Hodgdon or Linebaugh.

But is there pressure data to go with these loads?

YES! They're all max loads for their respective cartridges.

I put pressure data with the loads I listed and it proved my point from the beginning

Which means the 45 colt loads are a lower pressure load. You know this but refuse to acknowledge

Here's a condensation of Hodgdon data, using bullets that are reasonably comparable. Whether the bullets are jacketed or cast is denoted by a J or C after the weight, since they have slightly different pressure characteristics:

.44 Magnum, 8.275” barrel:
240J 1582 36,200
270J 1439 38,300
300J 1325 38,300
325C 1368 38,100
330C 1350 38,800
355C 1247 37,900
Average pressure 37,933


.45 Colt, 7.5” barrel:
240J 1532 30,000
260J 1374 30,000
300J 1203 29,800
325C 1266 27,400
335C 1240 28,000
360C 1167 29,800
Average pressure 29,167

Please note the .44 Magnum's test barrel is longer than the .45 Colt's. I don't know how much effect this has, but it has some.

I tend to trust Hodgdon's data far more than many other sources, because its taken with really professional equipment, by real professionals.

How can I say the pressure difference is meaningless without acknowledging that there is a difference??? Are you just screwing with me now?