Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles A note about new vs. 1x fired brass

A few days ago I picked up a bag of new Federal American Eagle 7.62x51 NATO brass. As part of the first time prep I ran the necks over an expanding mandrel (Lyman M-die) to round them out and make the hole size uniform. I then assembled fifty of them into an approximation of Lake City M852 match ammunition.

Of the fifty there were fourteen cartridges showing .005" or more runout on the bullet ogives as measured with my old Sinclair test fixture. The numbers were written on the case bodies.

After firing they were deprimed and lightly neck sized with a Lee collet die. They were then FL sized using a Forster die with a custom honed neck and no expander in place, trimmed, and finally expanded with the M-die to match the first loading.

The following pairs of numbers indicate the first and second loading runout of the cartridges:

8,1
7,2
7,1.5
6,1
6,1
6,1
6,1
6,1
6,2
5,2
5,1
5,1
5,1
5,3

At this point I have not measured the case neck walls for uniform thickness. Experience tells me if I do take that measurement the one that only improved from .005" to .003" will not be the one with the best neck.

I've opined before that 1x fired brass is your best bet for tuning loads, and here's some evidence why. Some of you are thinking what's new here, but this note isn't really for the old hands.

I wouldn't call myself an old nor a new hand, but I find your post interesting. Thanks.

I've often "felt" the first firing and process of resizing, tidies things up. Your measurements solidify that feeling.

I enjoyed that read. Thanks for the post. Makes sense.

How did the accuracy follow along with the test? Did the accuracy get better or worse with your findings?

I haven't shot the second loading ones yet.

The bad runout stuff shot about moa for five shot groups, and that's pretty bad considering the test rifle is a Remington 40X equipped with a Leupold VX-3 6.5-20x40LR that I was using on 12x while aiming at a 1/2 moa dot. The .003" and less runout rounds (from the other thirty six of the first load batch) were half moa shooters.

How much difference would this make for a hunting rifle? I'm very new to reloading, so just trying to learn.

I haven't run this exact test in a hunting rifle, but I've done something similar with a hunting 308.

A friend came into a good bit of 7.62x51 Lake City match ammunition, both M118 and M852. I had sorted some by runout, labeled it in a way where I new what was what but my friend couldn't tell. He was the trigger man and did not know what he was testing, so he was shooting equally carefully for all the rounds. The bad runout stuff shot noticeably larger groups.

And yet forming AI brass is such a chore and waste of components.

Given the way a proper AI is chambered (headspacing new brass on the neck-shoulder radius) it may avoid first load issues too since the possibly out of round new case body is floating.

Shhh

So, why couldn't have the process after the first firing been done on the first loading? Even though "new" brass doesn't "need" it to function, it certainly improves consistency and uniformity if they are all run through the complete process, whether new or once fired. That's what I have always done, and never noticed a difference between new, once fired, and almost worn out brass.

New brass is often too small in diameter for a size die to touch up the case body.

In fact I did pre-process the other fifty by running them through the Forster die before their first loading. The results were better, but there were still several that loaded out at .005" and one at .006" runout. A few more at .004"-.0045" as well.

Good information mathman, I wouldn't have thought there would be that much difference between first and second firing.

I have a question regarding your second firing prep.
Why neck size (squeeze the neck down), then body size, then open the neck back up?
Doesn't the Lee collet die leave the proper neck tension?
I haven't used the Redding M dies so I'm just trying to understand your procedure.

MM,

Thanks for sharing your data. I can't say it surprises me, but there's no substitute for a controlled test.

I wanted to use the Forster full length sizer w/o an expander ball since I prefer to expand in a subsequent step. This means one way or the other I needed to deprime the brass, so I used the Lee collet sizer to deprime and the neck sizing it did made the pass through the Forster die that much easier. The Forster die neck has been honed so that thicker brass like LC, FC or Lapua is not sized down too much in the neck. The expander mandrel in the Lyman M-die doesn't have to open the full length of the necks very much, I mainly used it to get the step expansion of the end of the case mouth.

I was fiddling around testing a couple of ideas that didn't bear directly on the first vs. second prep runout comparison.

The Lee collet die does size the necks the way I want them, and I use it solo quite often.

Here's a list of changes for a different set of the LC15 brass. These had been run through the Forster die w/o ball before their first loading. I just finished up their second loading whose processing included Lee collet neck sizing and Redding body sizing.

6 --> .5
5 --> 2
5 --> 1.5
5 --> 1
5 --> .5
5 --> 0
4.5 --> 2
4 --> 2.5
4 --> 1.5
4 --> 1.5
4 --> 0
3.5 --> 1.5
3 --> 1.5

mathman, thanks for the response.
I've got a new Kriegar .223 barrel arriving tomorrow and some new Lapua brass to load for it. I've been trying to refine my load procedures for max accuracy. May have to give the Lyman M die a try.

I much prefer 1x over new to start load dev for new loads and find it to be just as accurate as 1x or 2x from the same rifle. It's nice to be able to get to .002 HS before the first firing while doing load dev in a new chamber. That said, I've certainly shot some nice groups FFing with straightened virgin rounds that had a hefty HS.

The M-die is neat but it isn't a must have, especially if you're using a "competition" type die that holds the bullet in alignment with the case neck before the actual seating begins.

Where I've found it particularly nice is increasing the ease of starting bullets straight into the case when a conventional seating die is being used. For example, using the M-die as an add on I'm able to consistently load really straight cartridges using a vanilla RCBS two die set for an accurate 300 Savage I have. The two die set is actually pretty good by itself, but for a long while now I've found the use of the M-die worth the extra step.

By failing to properly prep the new brass you made an unfair comparison.

Please explain proper prep.

It's no secret to anyone with a modicum of handloading experience that all bets are off while doing load development in new, unfired brass, as mathman has demonstrated....

I'm doing a casual, flying blind experiment not yet checking the neck walls, and have been pleasantly surprised by the low runout this non-match grade brass is producing (for the most part) upon second assembly.

Yet there are manuals and published "experts" who always say ONLY use brand new brass to work up new loads!

Crazy.

Same as you did for the once-fired brass, if you wish to make a fair comparison.

I think you missed some of the things I wrote.

First, a typical FL die isn't tight enough in diameter and taper to really true up new brass which typically runs on the small side.

Second, I did do a FL size pass before the first loading on another set of brass, and while the runout results on these new brass loaded cartridges were slightly better than in the first comparison, there was still a marked improvement in runout in their second loading.

I believe I have the new vs. 1x thing covered.

Mathman,

I almost went exactly the same route you've gone. Instead I made one small change. Instead of useing the Forster full length die I use the Redding body die that sizes the body and doesn't touch the neck. I size my brass first and then neck size and deprime with the Lee collet.

Bullets are seated with the Forster Benchrest Seater. IMO this method negates any need to neck turn brass that might not have consistent neck thickness and works the necks a lot less.

I'm guessing your lot of LC brass has very consistent neck thickness




Shod

One set of twenty is now on its third loading vis Lee collet neck die and Redding body die. One cartridge had .0025" runout, three had .002" and the rest .0015" or less.

The second loading of this brass put sixteen into just under 3/4 moa, and that's with thrown charges and a 6x scope. (The other four were sighters for the freshly mounted scope.)

The third loading has the charge tweaked slightly to see if I can hit the old Lake City match velocity spec on the nose.

Whew, lowering my standards and selling all my reloading schit never felt so good......

For me fooling around with this stuff is part of the fun.

To ease your mind, test runout on various factory loads, and you will be quite satisfied with most results of handloading.

True that.
.004 - .006 out seemed to be the norm on the Win and Rem .270 loads I checked.
True Tool fixed em right up.

The straightening tool is great, and straightened cartridges shoot better than crooked ones.** But given an accurate rifle you'll probably find a batch of cartridges straightened from .006" to .002" or less won't do as well as a batch of cartridges that are .002" or less in the first place.


** Assuming they didn't need a ton of straightening which causes its own problems.

Small sample, maybe mathman will have more results.

And take any two from one group with one from the other and you get the dreaded "two together, one out" syndrome. So now take the 6 total rounds and chose any three at random and run the probability of getting "2 & 1"


What I see is the probability of 6 dead animals and no need for me to worry.

YMMV

If your only goal is dead animals, maybe you should sell your guns too and hunt at the supermarket.

You can suck my dick on the way too....

WTH?

I meant we'll stop at Sonic for a hotdog, my treat.

LOL, that's a better offer.

You can even have tater tots....

How did I get caught up in this?

Thanks Mathman. It's always nice to read about some careful testing.
I've found that simply firing the brass a time or two and using a Lee Collet Die works well. If I need to full lenth size, I like Barness's trick of removing the expander ball and using it later to expand the necks.
I check for run out by rolling the loaded rounds on a glass pane. Yeah, it isn't going to tell me if they are out unless they are out by .004-.005. But, I get some pretty accurate ammo at times. Probably due to the Collet Die more than anything else.
I not a long range shooter or a small varmit hunter unless the ranges are under 100 yds., so what I do works well.
I might ad that from a field position like sitting, even 2-2.5 MOA ammo shoot very close to that which tests close to MOA at least out to 300 yds.
But, who knows, maybe someday I'll get a 40X or a 700 w/ a 5R barrel and need to know this stuff. E

I'm not deluded about how tight I can hold in the field. I just like fiddling with handloads.

No tater tots for you.....

Anyway, is my math correct that if you have 2 sets of 3 and take any random combination of 3 (from the two sets) that there are 20 possibilities with only 2 of those being the 3 in the individual set?


I hate math as much as reloading, for the record. But it's still interesting.

Six items, taken three at a time without replacement, where order is not important, allows for 20 combinations.

Here's a sample of a box of Federal 30-06 165 TSX for schits and giggles...

# R/O COAL
1 0.004 3.623
2 0.005 3.613
3 0.005 3.612
4 0.003 3.623
5 0.004 3.619
6 0.003 3.615
7 0.005 3.613
8 0.004 3.618
9 0.002 3.618
10 0.003 3.619
11 0.004 3.604
12 0.005 3.615
13 0.003 3.621
14 0.006 3.615
15 0.003 3.616
16 0.005 3.610
17 0.004 3.618
18 0.004 3.616
19 0.004 3.615
20 0.002 3.610
S/D 0.001071153 0.004614337
High 0.006 3.623
Low 0.002 3.604

You should have seen some of the bananas I found in boxes of Lake City match ammo.

RO was not as bad as I was expecting for sure. COAL (comparator) was a little rough I thought.

Federal factory ammo has actually been pretty straight IME, but I have run a few lots that were bad. Hdy has been pretty good as well.

The real bad stuff I usually see is cheap ammo and .223/5.56. It's amazing how crooked some of that bargain stuff is.

I've watched people shoot semiautos at 200 and 300 yards with the typical bulk 5.56 and 7.62 fmj and the groups weren't pretty.




I did a favor for a friend of a friend and mounted a scope on a new Rem 700 VTR in 308, and also did a prelim sight in with a couple of varieties of 147 fmj that had been supplied with the rifle and scope. The groups were bad enough that I thought there could be a rifle problem, a scope problem, or both.

I couldn't let it go at that, so I went home and used the brass to make up an old school M1A 168 grain match load with 3031. Voila, .75 moa five shot groups.

I. too, have seen some pretty bad results with surplus 7.62 ammo.
I've got some old "Radway Greem" 7.62 ammo that never shot much under 3 MOA in either my M70 SS FWT., or my old 700 VSFS. In fact, some it wouldn't chamber in the M70.
Have Belgian surplus that would shoot about 1.75 MOA in the 700 VSFS.
But in my M1A, it was the reverse. The Belgian shot worse than the old british stuff. That was for four shots however. The RG ammo put four rounds into less than MOA. But shot No.5 blew the group to four inches. Later testing showed the RG ammo to average almost 4 MOA, and the Belgian ammo a bit under 3 MOA. 50 yd. plinking ammo is about all it is.
Mathman, would like my Federal made Lake City 7.62 brass ? I can't use it. I'll ship it to you if you agree to pay for the shipping charges. Send me a PM with your address if you want it. E

Shot today and it was right on the mark. Groups were 1/2 moa or a little tighter. The brass had been collet neck sized and body sized. The charges of IMR4895 were thrown. The rifle was a 700 5R Milspec fitted with a SS 6x42 milquad scope.

MM - thanks for the test/results. In my OCD way, I thought of the new brass-resizing operation and feel the same way. I've been using once fired brass for a long time. Observationally, my results match yours.

For S&G, I'll have a look at my latest - once fired 308 Hornady brass. I checked a few cases for runout and was surprised how uniform they were and close to concentric. I loaded up 50 sighters/testers using 150/165 Horn and Varget/IMR 4166 and will use these 50 when doing load development when it cools down a bit.

Thanks again.

A while back a friend of mine came into a number of ammo cans full of Lake City 7.62x51 match ammunition, both M118 and M852. His elderly grandfather-in-law who used to shoot a match M1A found out my friend shot 308 and gave him the ammo. Pappy was all right!

Anyway my friend and I hit the range with three or four accurate 308's and shot 300 yard targets. We generally did very well, but now and then there would be a flyer despite no wind, a good trigger squeeze, and so on. This was with us just opening boxes and shooting. So the light bulb lit up. Runout?

I took a bunch home, opened it up, and started putting it on my Sinclair runout check fixture. There it was, major runout for a round here and there. This was particularly true for the M118 cartridges. So I segregated some batches, let my friend shoot them blind to what I was testing, and the runout did make a difference.

Another thing I did was take some cartridges that had pretty good runout and pop the asphalt sealant inside the necks by seating the bullets a little deeper using a Lee dead length seating die. These shot very well, rivaling good handloads.

A little forensic work (disassembly of sample boxes from good shooting lots) also helped me realize gnat's ass control of powder charge weights is wasted effort in a lot of situations.

I came to the conclusion Lake City had the load worked out very well, but production and assembly methods of the time left something to be desired. The fired LC cases when assembled into straight handloads shot very well. A good bit of time and a lot of shooting later those vintage LC cases were getting tired. So when new LC headstamp cases started showing up as components I got nostalgic and decided to make more of my own "LC Match" cartridges. The M852 I can dupe pretty well, but the correct bullet for the M118 would be the old 173 gr. fmj boat tail. I use 175's from Sierra, Nosler, and Berger for those so I have a bullet advantage there.

bobnob17
The reason many of the old timers recommended the use of new brass was that in order for the cartridge head expansion method of gauging pressure of a load to work it was recommended to use new brass. The assumption was that even once fired brass would alter the characteristics of the brass and give unreliable results.