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Commission vote came after months of talks.

Deer breeders walk out of Texas Parks & Wildlife Commission hearing

Anti-breeding forces want to see strict regulations to protect wild deer from chronic wasting disease.

The Texas Parks and Wildlife Commission adopted new rules Monday to combat a disease found in deer, but the new rules could put a strain on many of the state’s 1,300 deer breeding businesses.

The commission’s vote came after months of discussions with interested groups, including breeders, ranch owners who sell hunting leases, environmental groups and livestock organizations.

The purpose for new regulations is to address how the state is going to deal with chronic wasting disease. The neurological condition — which affects deer, elk and maybe moose, but not humans — can cause weight loss, behavioral changes, brain lesions, excessive salivation, pneumonia, difficulty swallowing and head tremors.

It was discovered last year at a breeding facility in Medina County, near San Antonio.

With the commission’s unanimous vote on Monday, deer breeders will have to comply with increased regulation. There will be limited movement of breeder deer across the state, increased postmortem testing for chronic wasting disease and more live testing for the disease, too.

Deer breeding opponent Jenny Sanders, who is executive director of Texans for Saving our Hunting Heritage, called the commission vote a win.

Sanders, who also has served a manager on the 11,300-acre Temple Ranch near Freer in South Texas, said chronic wasting disease as a major threat to white-tailed deer in Texas and to the multibillion-dollar hunting industry. The state had the responsibility to protect the state’s 4 million white-tailed deer, she said.

Not everyone agreed with Sanders and the commissioners.

Particularly frustrated were few dozen members of Texas’ biggest deer breeding group, who walked out of a meeting before the vote even occurred.

Breeders involved with the Texas Deer Association said they believed the members of the commission had come to the meeting with their minds made up.

Marty Berry, a breeder from South Texas, said he felt like the commissioners didn’t care to hear from breeders.

“Nothing else can be accomplished at this level, “ he said.

Hugo Berlanga, a former member of the Texas House from Corpus Christi and owner of a deer breeding business, said the breeding industry in Texas is already on “life support.” The new regulations will come with high costs and will force some breeding operations of out business, he said.

“They have done so much damage to breeders,” he said.

Berlanga said the process was rigged to the benefit of large ranch owners who fear competition from smaller businesses that are often close to metro areas.

“It’s a bunch of elitists. I can’t explain it any simpler than that,” said Berlanga, a board member of the Texas Deer Association.

Sanders, whose group’s members include some representatives from major Texas ranches, has rejected the notion that the breeder fight is about large ranch owners trying to eliminate competition from breeders.

Rather, she said in a recent op-ed published in the San Antonio Express News, that “a small group of deer breeders” has “embarked on an effort to undermine” the efforts of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.

Josh Havens, a spokesman for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, said the commission has heard testimony from a number of individuals who either represent themselves, organizations and landowners.

“(T)his is a public resource issue, and the commission will make their decision based on science and what is in the best interest of the states wildlife and hunting heritage,” Havens wrote in a text message.

Berry, the South Texas breeder, said his and other breeders’ fight won’t end with the commission vote.

An already-filed lawsuit is going to be part of the answer, he said.

“That’s going to be the next step before the Legislature,” he said.

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I have a truck driver friend that delivers trophy farm deer to many of these trophy hunt places. He hates it... But it's big bucks, and he does it a heck of a lot more than I ever thought they do it.


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I have no problem with that. I'd rather chronic wasting not be spread.


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Quote
With the commission’s unanimous vote on Monday, deer breeders will have to comply with increased regulation. There will be limited movement of breeder deer across the state, increased postmortem testing for chronic wasting disease and more live testing for the disease, too.


I was unaware they had that capability. I thought they needed to look at the brain much like for rabies. miles


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From a blog that I check once in a while:

"The USDA in conjunction with the University of Colorado have been doing research on reliable live testing for CWD for some time now. Earlier this past spring more live test were being done and through Tonsilar swabs and Nasal swabs have produced very accurate and reliable live test data. Test were done on free range deer in Colorado, Wyoming and several large captive deer herds were tested ,test results of the first three captive herds showed no trace of prions in test animals. Free range animals that were tested showed both positive and non positive results in real time. More live test were just done in NY via tonsil swabs and nasal swabs with great results. Herd that was tested in NY came back negative. This along with tonsilar biopsy and or rectal biopsy show great leaps in research in just the past 5 years."


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Sounds like a bunch of butt-hurt teenagers that didn't get their way.


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Missouri is currently in legal talks to ban the import, export, selling and breading of deer.

In essence eventually it will be illegal to be a deer farmer or operate a high fence deer outfit in Missouri


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Originally Posted by tzone
Sounds like a bunch of butt-hurt teenagers that didn't get their way.


Yep! Born and raised in TX and love the state but they've turned their deer hunting into a joke. Sad really

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Originally Posted by tedthorn
Missouri is currently in legal talks to ban the import, export, selling and breading of deer.



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I feel for the guys that shelled out time and money to get into a legal business that seemed to have high potential for growth and earnings only to find out they're about to be out of business.

Having said that, this is something that should have never been allowed to happen (deer farming) and the sooner it's stopped the better.

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It was TPDW that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.

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Originally Posted by huntsonora
Originally Posted by tzone
Sounds like a bunch of butt-hurt teenagers that didn't get their way.


Yep! Born and raised in TX and love the state but they've turned their deer hunting into a joke. Sad really


THankfully its not spread as far as folks would believe from a few articles.

There are lots of acres of land that will never see anything but wild bred deer.

OTOH whats wrong with simply trying to prevent the spread of a disease that can not only ruin captive but wild breeding populations.

Once again follow the money.


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Pizz on Texas deer breeders. Simply disgusting what the state has allowed but not surprising at all.


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Top of the morning, Ed. Do not go around, mincing words. Tell us what you realy think.

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Knowing that anytime you crowd animals up close, danger from disease increases, If you can test your tame deer live, it seems that you could keep this stuff in check and out of the wild herd. Arkansas had changed its laws about keeping deer before they found the CWD in the wild. I don't keep up with it all, but they kept hobby deer owners from breeding their deer and they had to keep does and bucks separated. Phasing it out and only people that already had deer could keep them. I don't know about high fence operations, or if there are any, but I suspect there are. miles


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Originally Posted by wesheltonj
It was TPWD that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.


Yes, but TPWD is now changing the rules of the game years after many of these people invested their personal stakes in the business. When government regulation wipes out a thriving business with a stroke of a pen people are going to get upset, because their livelihoods are being damaged.

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

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Originally Posted by Canazes9
....this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.


Yep. The golden goose popped out a big stinking turd instead of more eggs as expected.



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Originally Posted by Canazes9
I feel for the guys that shelled out time and money to get into a legal business that seemed to have high potential for growth and earnings only to find out they're about to be out of business.

Having said that, this is something that should have never been allowed to happen (deer farming) and the sooner it's stopped the better.

David


They can still do it. they just have to follow a new set of rules, that really don't seem to be unreasonable to help curb the spread of CWD.


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Here in Montana we went through something similar with fenced elk farms a few years ago--which also shouldn't have been allowed in the first place.

As it turned out, not only were a number of elk "breeders" lax about their fencing, allowing plenty of potential for CWD-infected animals to infect wild elk, but at least one fenced operation was herding wild elk inside its fences. Instead of outlawing game farms, however, we simply outlawed "hunting" the tame elk inside the enclosures.

The owners can still sell the meat, hides and antlers, just like cattle ranchers can sell their animals, but without the massive $$$$ paid by some people to shoot huge-antlered bulls inside corrals, there wasn't any reason to import genetically "enhanced" elk, and the chance of CWD dropped enormously.


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There should not be Deer farm ,deer breeders ,deer pin up . Their wild not a farmer thing . the deer are feed pellets made from deer by products so they are fed deer with sickness an CWD TB an what ever sickness out there

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Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
It was TPWD that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.


Yes, but TPWD is now changing the rules of the game years after many of these people invested their personal stakes in the business. When government regulation wipes out a thriving business with a stroke of a pen people are going to get upset, because their livelihoods are being damaged.

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

David



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A testing program is not out of order at all. It is done on cattle on a regular basis.

My personal opinion is it all started with high fences. No way to undo that one now.

I miss the good old days when I had open invitations to multiple ranches. And when we had so much venison backstrap it was OK to chicken fry one occasionally.


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Governments changing rules mid stream and costing investors fortunes is nothing new,and has given us at least a couple of major real estate recessions where people were invested and lost it all.

I'm sure there are lots of other examples from the securities industry to gas and oil development and exploration and on and on it goes.

It's what governments "do".

Nothing to see here...move along. smile




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Originally Posted by Tejano
...we had so much venison backstrap it was OK to chicken fry one occasionally.


Lol, I'm all for that.



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Originally Posted by smokepole
Originally Posted by Tejano
...we had so much venison backstrap it was OK to chicken fry one occasionally.


Lol, I'm all for that.


Can't bread em before you fry em in Missouri though grin

Originally Posted by tedthorn
Missouri is currently in legal talks to ban the import, export, selling and breading of deer.


I know he meant breeding but I had to give Ted a hard time.

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The flip side to this, TPW allowed it, and then found out that there was all of a sudden, this huge issue that could really create problems.

So they did what they had to do.

No one can forecast what regs change.

Hell no one feels sorry for the fact they sell milk in the stores these days and the milkman is unemployed.

Its life. Nothing fair about it.

I'm glad at least TPW had the balls to stand up and say, oops, we can't allow this anymore, you had your day, now you'll have to test or not do at all...


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I recall hearing of one rancher who bought one of those "super bucks" - genetic freak with huge antlers - near Sonora, Tx. He doubtless thought he could charge big bucks to hunt. He turned it loose and found it dead, gored to death three weeks later. It had no clue how to survive, even on a high fenced ranch.


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Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
It was TPWD that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.


Yes, but TPWD is now changing the rules of the game years after many of these people invested their personal stakes in the business. When government regulation wipes out a thriving business with a stroke of a pen people are going to get upset, because their livelihoods are being damaged.

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

David


I don't know any business where the rules stay static. The owners of theses breading facilities can always "hunt" off their stock on their own property to reduce their loses and leave the business, if they think they can't make a profit. I know that sounds harsh, but TPWD first priority is to protect native stock, not the profits of famers.

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These elitist thought we'll breed up these 200class deer and sell them for a fortune. Mother Nature took a hit for a while but it looks like the Murphy bus has come back
around. These guys were for the most part are rich snobs that got their way for a few years but when you start messing w/football and deer hunting in Texas...you've stepped in it. TPWD knows which side it's bread is buttered on and it ain't supporting some rich fat cats that want to play by a different set of rules and get by w/it. We've got probably 1.2 million hunters and a deer herd of 4 million deer. That's a lot of money to go to bed w/the wrong fellas. powdr

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Half a million deer in Texas?



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Originally Posted by wesheltonj
Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
It was TPWD that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.


Yes, but TPWD is now changing the rules of the game years after many of these people invested their personal stakes in the business. When government regulation wipes out a thriving business with a stroke of a pen people are going to get upset, because their livelihoods are being damaged.

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

David


I don't know any business where the rules stay static. The owners of theses breading facilities can always "hunt" off their stock on their own property to reduce their loses and leave the business, if they think they can't make a profit. I know that sounds harsh, but TPWD first priority is to protect native stock, not the profits of famers.



Most of the bigger outfits will probably be able to comply with this level of regulation. This is going to hit the smaller operators hard. Again, I think the whole practice should be illegal and should never have been allowed in the first place. I'm not in favor of reversing the decision to favor the breeders. I just don't think the breeders are the villains here.

TPWD created this situation, then have subsequently reversed course changing the rules mid-stream. If I had just invested my life savings into one of these little breeder outfits with the eye that one day it might at least partially fund my retirement, I would have been pissed with the new regulations also.

This isn't a loophole that some exploited, that TPWD is trying to tighten up on - TPWD had the opportunity to rule against this BS in the beginning and they allowed it. Now they are beginning to realize this can't continue. Ultimately, I don't think the new rules will be sufficient and ultimately the entire deer breeding farm concept will have to be eliminated.

I can't help but feel sorry for the small entrepreneurs that will be driven out of business because of an initial failure on TPWD's part that they are now being forced to correct.

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Originally Posted by smokepole
Half a million deer in Texas?
3.95 million in 2014, and will probably be in well in excess of 4 million by the opener this fall.


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Ben, that's my fault. I meant that we kill half a million deer in Texas each year. The herd stays somewhere around 3.75-4 million animals annually. powdr

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Thanks for the clarifications. That's a lot of breaded backstraps.



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Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
It was TPWD that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.


Yes, but TPWD is now changing the rules of the game years after many of these people invested their personal stakes in the business. When government regulation wipes out a thriving business with a stroke of a pen people are going to get upset, because their livelihoods are being damaged.

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

David


I don't know any business where the rules stay static. The owners of theses breading facilities can always "hunt" off their stock on their own property to reduce their loses and leave the business, if they think they can't make a profit. I know that sounds harsh, but TPWD first priority is to protect native stock, not the profits of famers.



Most of the bigger outfits will probably be able to comply with this level of regulation. This is going to hit the smaller operators hard. Again, I think the whole practice should be illegal and should never have been allowed in the first place. I'm not in favor of reversing the decision to favor the breeders. I just don't think the breeders are the villains here.

TPWD created this situation, then have subsequently reversed course changing the rules mid-stream. If I had just invested my life savings into one of these little breeder outfits with the eye that one day it might at least partially fund my retirement, I would have been pissed with the new regulations also.

This isn't a loophole that some exploited, that TPWD is trying to tighten up on - TPWD had the opportunity to rule against this BS in the beginning and they allowed it. Now they are beginning to realize this can't continue. Ultimately, I don't think the new rules will be sufficient and ultimately the entire deer breeding farm concept will have to be eliminated.

I can't help but feel sorry for the small entrepreneurs that will be driven out of business because of an initial failure on TPWD's part that they are now being forced to correct.

David


So one should risk the up to 5 million wild deer population here? Because some folks don't want to test and make less income vs none at all?



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I'm pretty sure that's not what he's saying:

Originally Posted by Canazes9
Again, I think the whole practice should be illegal and should never have been allowed in the first place. I'm not in favor of reversing the decision to favor the breeders. I just don't think the breeders are the villains here.



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Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
Originally Posted by Canazes9
Originally Posted by wesheltonj
It was TPWD that allowed Deer Breeding in the first place. And now some Breeders are upset because TPWD wants to regulate the business to keep CDW from spreading to the native population, tuff. Their is no guarantee of a profit when you are in business. In fact most business fail, these folks know the risks.


Yes, but TPWD is now changing the rules of the game years after many of these people invested their personal stakes in the business. When government regulation wipes out a thriving business with a stroke of a pen people are going to get upset, because their livelihoods are being damaged.

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

David


I don't know any business where the rules stay static. The owners of theses breading facilities can always "hunt" off their stock on their own property to reduce their loses and leave the business, if they think they can't make a profit. I know that sounds harsh, but TPWD first priority is to protect native stock, not the profits of famers.



Most of the bigger outfits will probably be able to comply with this level of regulation. This is going to hit the smaller operators hard. Again, I think the whole practice should be illegal and should never have been allowed in the first place. I'm not in favor of reversing the decision to favor the breeders. I just don't think the breeders are the villains here.

TPWD created this situation, then have subsequently reversed course changing the rules mid-stream. If I had just invested my life savings into one of these little breeder outfits with the eye that one day it might at least partially fund my retirement, I would have been pissed with the new regulations also.

This isn't a loophole that some exploited, that TPWD is trying to tighten up on - TPWD had the opportunity to rule against this BS in the beginning and they allowed it. Now they are beginning to realize this can't continue. Ultimately, I don't think the new rules will be sufficient and ultimately the entire deer breeding farm concept will have to be eliminated.

I can't help but feel sorry for the small entrepreneurs that will be driven out of business because of an initial failure on TPWD's part that they are now being forced to correct.

David


So one should risk the up to 5 million wild deer population here? Because some folks don't want to test and make less income vs none at all?



Really?

Why do you respond to posts you don't bother reading?

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i'd be afraid to even eat one those pumped up whitetails.you may grow a 2ft prong.

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Originally Posted by savage62
There should not be Deer farm ,deer breeders ,deer pin up . Their wild not a farmer thing . the deer are feed pellets made from deer by products so they are fed deer with sickness an CWD TB an what ever sickness out there



Reminds me of the English and their (mad) cattle.


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It's just a big money grab at the expense of the regular hunter. powdr

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Power. Have you ever hunted a hf ranch or spent any time around someone who has one or has a breeding operation?

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Originally Posted by Canazes9
[quote=wesheltonj]

Again, I 100% think this should NEVER have been allowed to come to this point, and I think the entire practice should be illegal, not just more carefully regulated. But you can't blame the people that followed a legal business opportunity. This is a TPWD created problem.

David



Not really, deer breeders chose to start a business with a product that is heavily regulated now, and the rules changed.

No different than opening a paint and body shop using solvent based paint and then having to use water based paint.

Or opening a shop that caters to AR-15's, it's a business decision with risk.


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Frankenbucks have no place in hunting. Wish they'd pull down the fences, also.

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Wish they'd pull down the fences, also.


Fences are sometimes meant to keep poachers out as much as game in. miles


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Fences are generally as much to keep out non welcome breeding bucks that for some reason others let live, with inferior genetics, as much as to keep theirs in and to keep poachers out.....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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[/quote]

So one should risk the up to 5 million wild deer population here? Because some folks don't want to test and make less income vs none at all?

[/quote]

Really?

Why do you respond to posts you don't bother reading?

David [/quote]

David, no flame intended, but read the following

With the commission’s unanimous vote on Monday, deer breeders will have to comply with increased regulation. There will be limited movement of breeder deer across the state, increased postmortem testing for chronic wasting disease and more live testing for the disease, too.

I don't see a problem with any of this at all. It comes with regulations and if you didn't regulate, then why risk our other 5 million or whatever the current pop is of deer here that are wild?

If you are referring to anything else please let me know. I have no other idea what I missed in all this?

BTW if it was the 4 million or so current population, my memory tells me we've been as high as over 5 million in the past... it was a number I recall as a max, hence the wording, up to....


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I'm assuming deer should be doing well in Texas with all the rain, yes?


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Originally Posted by rost495
Fences are generally as much to keep out non welcome breeding bucks that for some reason others let live, with inferior genetics, as much as to keep theirs in and to keep poachers out.....


The other reason people's put up high fences. Say you own a 5000 acre ranch. People buy small ranches on your border. Then they kill way more game than their ranch will support, everything that jumps the fence. They get hoggish and they get fenched out. Hasbeen


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Originally Posted by rost495


David, no flame intended, but read the following

With the commission’s unanimous vote on Monday, deer breeders will have to comply with increased regulation. There will be limited movement of breeder deer across the state, increased postmortem testing for chronic wasting disease and more live testing for the disease, too.

I don't see a problem with any of this at all. It comes with regulations and if you didn't regulate, then why risk our other 5 million or whatever the current pop is of deer here that are wild?

If you are referring to anything else please let me know. I have no other idea what I missed in all this?

BTW if it was the 4 million or so current population, my memory tells me we've been as high as over 5 million in the past... it was a number I recall as a max, hence the wording, up to....



Hmmmm - You haven't read anything else I posted, not sure I should bother a third time.

Oh well, why not....


The new regulations don't go nearly far enough. Commercial deer farming needs to be completely eliminated - nothing less will protect the wild deer population.

The small deer breeder operations that got pissed and walked out didn't cause this. This is a result of bad policy from TPWD from the start. Their foolishness is wiping out life savings and hurting small businesses. Businesses that were started based on TPWD's prior bad policy decisions.

I don't have to be "pro deer farming" to feel bad for small business owners wiped out by TPWD's prior failures. Small businesses that would never have been, life savings that wouldn't have been risked if it were not the prior stupidity of the TPWD. TPWD isn't the hero here - they're bumbling fools finally correcting a problem that they created.

I don't know how to be any clearer than that.

David


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Fences are generally as much to keep out non welcome breeding bucks that for some reason others let live, with inferior genetics,


No fences here except maybe a 5 string barbed wire, but I have a neighbor and friend that hunts with me that will not kill one of these buck that badly need killing. I keep explaining to Him that killing them and letting the better ones walk for a while will pay dividends, but He will wait on a really nice one every time. I will give Him credit that He lets a lot of bucks walk past, and He hunts near every day of season, but a little help with the culling would be welcome. Other than that, a really good friend and neighbor. Should mention that we are allowed 2 bucks a year, plus several does. miles


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TPWD isn't the hero here - they're bumbling fools finally correcting a problem that they created.


If they are anything like Arkansas Game and Fish, they are long on classroom theory and short on experience. miles


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Originally Posted by milespatton
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Fences are generally as much to keep out non welcome breeding bucks that for some reason others let live, with inferior genetics,


No fences here except maybe a 5 string barbed wire, but I have a neighbor and friend that hunts with me that will not kill one of these buck that badly need killing. I keep explaining to Him that killing them and letting the better ones walk for a while will pay dividends, but He will wait on a really nice one every time. I will give Him credit that He lets a lot of bucks walk past, and He hunts near every day of season, but a little help with the culling would be welcome. Other than that, a really good friend and neighbor. Should mention that we are allowed 2 bucks a year, plus several does. miles

I think a good policy change would be to not count culls against buck tag limits. I think they should count as either an antlerless tag or make up special cull tags, especially in areas where only one buck can be taken.

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It's been maybe 2 decades now since CWD was found here, and the ensuing genocide that followed has definitely still impacted Deer and Deer hunting here,

I still don't think the DNR knows exactly what CWD is, what causes it or how to contain it.

The breeders that walked out may have had a point, they wanted a decision based on science, not guesses.

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Winters Quarters, New Boston, MO will not be happy if that happens!

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I think they should count as either an antlerless tag or make up special cull tags, especially in areas where only one buck can be taken.


Our rules are so screwed up that you can't even kill a 3 year old spike unless you are under 16 years old. 3 pts or better on at least one side to be legal for adults. I watched a spike that reached 4 years old before he disappeared. Hope he was killed, but do not know. His horns looked like a good buck except there was just a main beam and no other points even brow tines. I put a kid where I had been seeing Him a lot, but the kid killed a nice 6 point. Happy for the kid but wished that the spike would have been killed. I saw him chasing does a lot of times and expect that he bred a lot of them.
That old bigger buck doing the breeding does not hold water, as I killed a small racked 7 pt, right after I saw him breed a doe, and I know there was several better bucks in the area. I also watched a nice 6pt breed a doe 5 times one afternoon, and I had seen bigger bucks in the area before and after that day. miles


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Even our rules don't totally cover how I want to manage what I have access to.

And so you then end up having to handle management a different way.

I'm not going to let a genetic cull live to breed if I can help it. I actually enjoy taking those out more than looking for the biggest buck out there.

The results in the deer I see in the last 10-15 years are nothing short of amazing compared to what was out there. We used to see a deer a few times a year, maybe a couple. I killed the second deer ever on our place in 2005.

We now have a legit chance at seeing a 160 plus inch buck on any given day that they have hard antlers.

None of that happened by accident.

At least they do let us shoot spikes. But I"m not at all convinced that all spikes are trash, but I do go after the older ones, IE if they hit 2.5 and are still spikes, they are toast. In fact I have 1.5 year 10s now and then and almost all 1.5 year olds now are around 10-12 inches wide and typically 75% are at least 7-8 points.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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How big a place are you managing post? IME, on smaller acreage whitetail ground, it takes a team effort of the landowner and a significant number of his neighbors to make it work. All this considering no high fences.


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it takes a team effort of the landowner and a significant number of his neighbors to make it work. All this considering no high fences.


Hard to get a bunch of neighbors on board with anything here. miles


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Originally Posted by JGRaider
How big a place are you managing post? IME, on smaller acreage whitetail ground, it takes a team effort of the landowner and a significant number of his neighbors to make it work. All this considering no high fences.


You are going to bust a gut. 100 acres. BUT I have appx 500 around me thats none hunted and another package of about 300 that manages the same, plus a parcel of about 600 thats fairly well managed.

It helps when most folks are on the same page.

It will only take one new to them landowner to quickly ruin all this.

And I should be clear, i don't have any 160s.... but they are around, I've never seen one, but have seen harvested ones within 2-3 miles of us. But going from praying you saw a legal buck for many(I refused to shoot when populations where that low) to now watching multiple 10s of the 130-140 class almost every day from the kitchen window makes me grin.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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I'm just curious and not being argumentative, but I had a biologist look at our whitetail ground in the TX Panhandle which is 4000 acres. I wanted him to lay out a mgt plan as best he could considering it's a one buck county, and only recently allowing much doe killing.

His response surprised me. He said since mature whitetail bucks will roam 5-10 miles or more during the rut (this is nature's way of spreading genetics he said), unless you have a large expanse of property (including all the neighbors being on the exact same page) we would be wasting our time.

Obviously you can have more mature bucks around by shooting the inferior culls, but once again everyone has to be on board with the program. We are going through this management objective/program on our mule deer ground as we speak, but since it is 100 contiguous sections it should work.


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Oh don't doubt I loose deer every year. Typically on the 100 acres of ours, we have up to 15-20 "legal" bucks by Aug/Sept. By end of Sept, sometimes just before bow, the biggest disappear. Sometimes I see them at times again. Sometimes never again that I"m aware of.

Last year we kept 4 bucks, 10 points each, lowest scoring around 125, best around 140, and they stayed around all year. A friend hunts half a mile away would see some of them now and then, but for the most part we would see them almost every day.

I totally agree with him on size needed to manage, but I can say this, we've seen what happens when any buck is legal around here. And I've seen what happens with the 13 inch rule in effect plus a little education.

probably does not hurt that I have at times up to 8 food plots, and have protein out almost year around and some feeders stashed in spots year round.

I can promise that we have not wasted our time here. OTOH we very well may not have netted the largest that "we" have produced either... and I'm fine with that. As long as the few folks that hunt, are not killing promising bucks, and are killing culls, who gets the biggest one matters not to me.

The funny thing that my cameras show almost every year, that its much more common to find a 4-6 year old pure trash buck show up for 2-3 days or a week, and play hell realizing he is around quick enough to kill him. Its almost unseen, to see a mucho buck show up for a day or three or a week.

Hence I'm still and generally alwyas have been, much more concerned with killing the trash, and let the rest of the chips fall where they may.

Having shot a buck of almost 160 inches in 130 inch hill country region last fall, sometimes it works. I was not hunting that buck. Had not seen him in 2 years. Was just trying to kill 2 culls every fall and some does. And just be patient. I was lucky, but it worked.

High fences, I don't give a flip what anyone says, I'd be MUCH more into a high fence to keep trash out, than to keep the best in. Trash can ruin an effort really really quickly IMHO. If I loose one of my best bucks, thats not so bad as I have other good genetics to breed.

We had a bad gene in Llano once... yeah, land of the dinks.... it was no brow tines.... nice bucks for the area with nothing. It took us about 5 years of shooting every one we saw on the spot, and then another few years, before we then went almost 4 years IIRC before shooting another. But let one get into the pile, breed a few does, and have to get his offspring old enough to realize they are the same, and cull, they too likely have had a chance to breed and off we go again.

No matter what anyone says, letting the big ones go and even die of old age, while shooting trash, ain't going to hurt anything, and there is NO way it can't help. No matter what years of college might say.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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No substitute for age, that's for sure. As far as your years of college comment. This particular biologist helped coin the term "the golden triangle" along with Horace Gore, the godfather's of TX deer management. He had spiral notebooks that would stack to the ceiling several times over of his in the field documented data. That, and his college education, have given him more knowledge than you and I put together 100 times over will ever hope to have. When you hear the term "he's forgotten more than most people combined will ever know"......that's him. Everyone who knows him acknowledges that as well, especially his peers.


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Originally Posted by milespatton

Our rules are so screwed up that you can't even kill a 3 year old spike unless you are under 16 years old.

3 pts or better on at least one side to be legal for adults. I watched a spike that reached 4 years old before he disappeared. Hope he was killed, but do not know. His horns looked like a good buck except there was just a main beam and no other points even brow tines. miles


U R right miles. I have USED my buck tags to 'cull' trash. It is a shame they make NO provision for 'adult' spikes, forked horns etc. Game Wardens have said, "they're lucky".

Yes, but it hurts the quality. "They say" they're trying to improve the quality of the herd but NOT like that.

The 'better' / 'mature' bucks will do the breeding IF they are around but when they are locked down with a hot doe, the better bucks are NOT around.

Jerry


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Originally Posted by JGRaider
No substitute for age, that's for sure. As far as your years of college comment. This particular biologist helped coin the term "the golden triangle" along with Horace Gore, the godfather's of TX deer management. He had spiral notebooks that would stack to the ceiling several times over of his in the field documented data. That, and his college education, have given him more knowledge than you and I put together 100 times over will ever hope to have. When you hear the term "he's forgotten more than most people combined will ever know"......that's him. Everyone who knows him acknowledges that as well, especially his peers.


Its nice to know that some keep on and move forward, college is to teach you more of how to learn in life the rest of your life.

But for someone to say that its worthless to do the best you can, I think that is a total dis service to the community. Will you end up with a perfect herd and 180s behind each bush? No way, hell you might not even have the genetics or nutrition to do that regardless, but regardless just flat ignoring whats going on takes us right back to what we used to have. 120 inch deer was amazing. Like a 160 now. So in a way you have growth of 40 inches due to regs and management....

I'd say thats a positive move regardless.

Just watched an 8 in velvet come by the house while ago that was a 2.5 year old buck at about 110 inches already... Years back he'd have died at 1.5..


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Originally Posted by JGRaider
I'm just curious and not being argumentative, but I had a biologist look at our whitetail ground in the TX Panhandle which is 4000 acres. I wanted him to lay out a mgt plan as best he could considering it's a one buck county, and only recently allowing much doe killing.

His response surprised me. He said since mature whitetail bucks will roam 5-10 miles or more during the rut (this is nature's way of spreading genetics he said), unless you have a large expanse of property (including all the neighbors being on the exact same page) we would be wasting our time.

Obviously you can have more mature bucks around by shooting the inferior culls, but once again everyone has to be on board with the program. We are going through this management objective/program on our mule deer ground as we speak, but since it is 100 contiguous sections it should work.
.

Think about trying to get that plan to work in an area where the properties run from as little as 15-20 acres to mybe 200. It would take convincing at least 50 landowners to get 4000 acres where we hunt. As to deer breeders, it all comes down to what you want . I come from a time where if you responded to what did you kill and you said 8 pt everyone said wow and never cared if it scored 120 or 180. It was an 8 pointer. I kind of miss the simplicity. The deer breeders to me have sort of make a mockery of B&C and other trophy registers as well as trophy hunting in general. Like so much if you have a fat wallet you can buy what you want.

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I know I'll be taken to task... but shooting larger scoring deer means you are shooting bucks past their breeding prime.

Which IMHO is much healthier in the end. The best ones breed and are harvested later.

Not shot when they were just an 8 point...

We manage our ponds too, taking what needs to be taken when it does.

Not managing would be like letting your cattle herd just do whatever, and dad breeds daughters and so on... but if you don't or haven't run cattle, then some of this may not make so much sense.

Stewardship of the land means getting the best out of it. And not simply by harvest, the hardiest fish/animals etc.. that are much more resistant to disease, drought etc.....

You let a runt cull like me breed, the whole thing would be messed up. LOL.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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