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I have a gun safe and a lockable gun cabinet and still needing room for all the guns. I'm looking at Sportsmens and Cabelas in Phoenix and Glandale. I'm also looking at a digital key pad vs tumblers. Pros? Cons? Features and brands to look for? I'm looking for 20 gun minimum (I did say I had an over flow problem)

Other shops in the Phoenix metro area?

HaYen


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I first look at materials used in the safe. I put a higher priority on metal thickness, and door panel thickness than fire rating. Many gun "safes" could easily be chopped through with an axe. Some of the most secure use 1/4" or 3/8" steel for the door panel, and 3/16" body. Trade off is weight. Some weight 1000 pounds or more.

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Tumbler only! Thank me later.


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Digital key pad? Ever had a computer (or anything else electronic) puke without warning?


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Gun safes are a joke ……..the only gun safe with a" burglary " rating is a Brown safe. They ain't cheap.
All the rest have a "residential " 10-15 minute break in time. And that is with an old style " church key".

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Eventually a digital will lock you out, frustrating and usually requires the service$ of a locksmith. Go with a tumbler you'll be glad you did. I would not focus on fire rating rather look for recessed door, non-accessible hinges, rugged door frame construction with numerous bolts.

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I am a locksmith and see all kinds from $20 harbor freight safes to bank vaults Amsec is a good brand a bit pricey but good quality

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Probably not going to get your attention enough to chase this company's products down, given your location in Arizona & thiers just north of Waco TX on 1-35...but the best safe features I've found in my search is from a small custom mfg'er called Security Products in Elm Mott Texas.

Look at the unique key lock system that is a signature of their safes, along with a laundry list of whatever else you want in the way of hinges, amount of American Made steel, fire ratings & length of time yadda yadda in everything from Vault Doors to lil bitty household safes. Ain't Cheap, but quality never is.

I'll own one of these as soon as I can stop spending reno $'s on this old house we bought in east Texas.
Ron


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The safe I use has a unique, recessed, nearly hidden key lock that is virtually impossible to access with anything but the key that opens the lock. It is a Bear Safe. They have a high (time) rating for fire and are really heavy weight safes. They are not inexpensive, but provide all the security that I need or expect from a safe. Should someone try to break in to the safe, there are no combination dials, wheels or anything else to destroy. They also use a really neat feature to stabilize rifles and hand guns that are stored in the safe. I highly recommend.


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B300...that key feature you described sounds like the safes built in Waco. They also have an option for using "work hardening" plating over the locks.
Where did you buy the "Bear" brand safe?
Ron


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I also modify mine slightly and attach the following label to the front of the door in large print:

WARNING

Safe is lined with multiple FFFG gunpowder canisters as well as several glass vials of hydrocyanic acid. Do not shake, rattle or expose to heat, drilling, or sparks. I have insurance. DO YOU?

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If I get another safe it might be one that I can assemble myself where and when I want to.

If I moved I would take that one first.

When I got my safes decades ago they were from a dealer/locksmith who had used safes.

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www.SecurityProducts.com

Endorsed by Texas Rangers noted on the Home Page.
Ron


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Gun safes are like the 10'x10' family tent that says "sleeps eight comfortably"


Hell...Reloading/Shooting are still my favorite things to do,besides play in the box the kids came in.................
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Just bought a Liberty Franklin series 27 gun capacity. Like the others have said, go with a tumbler lock! A family friend didn't listen and got a digital lock that soon went DOA. It took a factory supplied locksmith to fix it....after a couple of weeks wait time.

Another point: buy one size up from what you need. No way in flying hell my safe will hold 27 long guns. I suppose they calculate capacity by assuming each gun is a 22 LR with iron sights. If a gun is normal sized and has a scope....pretty much takes up the space of two guns.


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Warranty - Liberty safe no brainier there

Actual pro breaking in issue - spend 2k more and get 20 minutes more time to get in..... So as long as the smash and grab guys can't lift or move it or pry it open easily your. Good with out a huge spend

Always get a safe that will hold more guns than you need, exchanges suck...upgrades suck....

Be prepared to pay 200-300 extra to move it - pay a pro, don't do it yourself


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Originally Posted by Spotshooter


Always get a safe that will hold more guns than you need, exchanges suck...upgrades suck....




This. If you have 20 long guns you want to fit in there, I would look at a 60 gun safe.

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The best info I have seen on gun safes was posted by a fellow named Frank Zyken on another forum several years ago. Here is a copy that I saved. Sorry about the length but it's good info IMHO.


"A brief introduction: I am located in the St. Louis, MO area, and among other things, have been involved in the security business for over 15 years. I am a commercial locksmith that only deals with safes and vaults. Although most of our business is commercial, we do deal with gun safes on a regular basis. Not only do we sell safes, but we also deliver the majority of gun safes sold through retailers in the St. Louis metro area. Many of these gun safe manufacturers also use us to perform warranty work as needed. I am pretty familiar with most of the gun safes on the market.

Although there are some exceptions to the rules, most gun safes are very unsecure when it comes to a dedicated attempt to breach the safe. An old fashioned UL rated TL-15 safe is your entry level burglary rated unit. These types of safes are often found in grocery stores, banks, and jewelry stores. These safes, which are rated against 15 minutes of attack using brute force and power tools, use 1" solid plate walls, and 1.5" solid plate doors. 10 gauge steel is 1/8".

The same is true of fire. UL fire rated safes are the benchmark for fire protection in the US. There is currently no gun safe on the market that meets the UL requirements for fire protection. Most of these gun safes use gypsum X insulation, which is nothing more than drywall. Although it does offer some protection, it will not stand up to a severe fire. Many of the gun safes that we open after fire have damaged contents.

One of the most important things that we tell our customers is that you must use the proper safe for the job at hand. Document safes are for documents, media safes are for media, and gun safes are for guns.

Even though these gun safes are advertised as a replacement for your safe deposit box, they are not. Small amounts of jewelry are OK. Documents should be placed in a UL rated document box and then placed inside the gun safe. Media (computer disks) should be placed in a UL rated media box, although this still may fail in a gun safe.

Items that are difficult to replace are still best kept in a safe deposit box at a bank.

Approximately 5% (five percent) of my retail safe sales last year were gun safes. Nothing I say about gun safes has anything to do with the "salemen" inside of me.

I deal in real security, which is where my information and knowledge comes from. I don't know of many manufacturers that have the background I have. It's probably safe to say that I know more about boxes designed to keep people out than many of the people that build them. In fact, I can't think of many gun safe manufacturers that have much of a background in real safe construction. Most people who build gun safes have only built gun safes.

Ultimately, if you need a safe that offers real fire protection, you need a safe with a UL tag (with a few exceptions). This rules out gun safes, as there is currently no gun safe on the market that carries a UL fire label. Of course there are manufacturers (AMSEC, Graffunder, Brown) that use materials that are used in UL fire rated safes, which will be about as close as you'll come to a real rated safe in a gun safe package.
A good rule of thumb is to plan on spending approximately 10% of the value of your assets on the safe that stores them. If you only have $1,000 worth of guns, you may not want to spend $1,000 on a safe. But if you have a $100,000 collection, don't think for a second that a $1,000 safe will be safe enough. Also consider the potential liability you would face if the guns were stolen or somebody was injured while in your home. $1,000 is a small price to pay for peace of mind. It's certainly cheaper than a lawyer's retainer.

Keep in mind, that a safe is one of the cheapest insurance policies available, and it is also your last line of defense. If you skimp on the safe required for your needs, you may not like the aftermath of a fire or burglary. If you buy a $2,000 safe and it gives you 20 years of service, your cost is only $8.33 per month.

As a general rule, we usually say that a B rate safe is good for +/- $25,000 with alarm, C rate +/-$75,000 with alarm, and TL-15 (E rate) for $75,000 +. You could certainly place higher value items in a lower rated safe if you are comfortable with that risk. The problem you have with the higher rated safes is the weight.

Unless you're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of a collection, a "B" or "C" rated unit would be a great safe to use. Keep in mind that any of these safes large enough for guns are going to be much heavier than you would expect. A "B" rated safe may weigh 1,500 to 2,000 pounds, a "C" rated safe may weigh 2,000 to 3,000 pounds, and a TL rated safe will exceed 3,000 pounds.

SMNA was the first to issue "ratings" which aren't really ratings. They are really methods of construction that were used by insurance companies to determine risk. These ratings existed in a time when burglary safes were mostly steel plate, because composite safes (as they exist today), didn't really exist then.

A "B Rate" is a safe using up to 1/4" of steel plate in the body, and up to 1/2" of steel plate in the door. Technically any gun safe would meet this definition. When I refer to a B rate, I am strict with the full 1/4" body plate and 1/2" door plate.

A "C Rate" would have up to a 1/2" plate body and 1" plate door, a "E Rate" would have a 1" plate body and 1.5" plate door, and a "F Rate" would have a 1" plate body and a 1.5" laminated plate door consisting of 1" steel and a 1/2" manganese steel.

UL came along at a later date with their burglary ratings. Their entry level burglary rating is a TL-15, which is essentially the same as an E rate. The TL-30 is essentially the same as the F rate.

Although safe companies are technically correct by calling their gun safes B rates, it is a little disingenuous if the safe does not have the full 1/4" body and 1/2" door.

The UL RSC test (which is meaningless in my opinion), tests safes (mostly gun safes) against a big screw driver and short handled hammer. [Note: with very few exceptions, ALL gun safes are rated as UL RSC – this means that the “safe” will withstand being broken into by one person using these tools for at least 5 minutes] The reason they use these tools in their test is because these are the tools most likely to be carried by a street level burglar. A guy carrying a 6' prybar or long handled sledge hammer would probably draw some attention to himself if he was walking down the street with them.

A 12 gauge safe will withstand these small tools, as will a 10 gauge, 1/4", 1/2" and 1" plate safe. Against these tools, the extra steel isn't going to make much of a difference. If you keep heavier tools in your home, a heavier safe may make more sense.

It is common knowledge that the body is usually the weakest part of a safe. It is also common knowledge that most criminals aren't very bright, and as such, a safe is usually attacked on the door. This is where placement comes into play.

If you can place the safe in a position that restricts access to the body, and bolt the safe to prevent it from being moved, the body thickness isn't as important since a thief can't get to it in the first place. If your safe will be in a position where the body will be exposed, a heavier body may be worth considering. If your safe body will be exposed, try to limit the exposure to the shortest sides as they are the most robust. The back is usually the easiest to get through, then the sides, then the top and bottom.

Most of your brand name safes are pretty similar. Browning, Liberty, Fort Knox, Champion, Cannon, etc....

The weak link is the thin steel. All of these companies use 12 gauge [0.105”] steel on their lower models, and 10 gauge [0.134”] on some of the others. At the end of the day, nothing else matters....1/10" steel is 1/10" steel.

There is no burglary testing for gun safes because they aren't anywhere near secure enough to have a rating. To keep it in perspective, the lowest UL burglary rating is a 15 minute rating against all common hand tools, power tools, and pressure applying devices. Using the same steel that most gun safe manufacturers use, a safe with a 15 minute rating would have a 1" solid plate body, and a 1.5" solid plate door. Most of these gun safes use 10 times less steel. Dividing that 15 minutes up, that leaves you with 1.5 minutes of brute force resistance. Why rate a safe for 2 minutes when it takes the police 6 minutes to arrive?

With that said, you have to understand there's a tight rope act that these safe companies are putting on. The safe has to be big enough for guns, but light enough to go into a house. It has to have a fire liner, but it can't be moist because it will damage the guns. It also has to be cheap, because gun owners are notorious for wanting to spend as little as possible on a gun safe.

Many of these gun safes are OK for normal weapons storage. I have a problem with the companies that claim their gun safes are suitable for protecting the family jewels, photographs, and other things that they are not designed to protect.

The problem is that most gun safe manufacturers are selling their safes as multipurpose safes when they aren't. Any fire lining will give you some protection, and a good material will give you better protection. However, the truth remains that no gun safe manufactured today has met the strict UL fire standards. I wouldn't call insulation a waste of money, but I don't think it's a good value unless you're talking about a real fire lining (not gypsum board).

The photos I posted show this well. The little inexpensive Sentry with a UL rating protected its contents well during a very severe fire, when the gun safe with gypsum lining in a less severe fire failed miserably.

There are only three companies that I'm aware of that build a real safe with gun safe interiors.

AMSEC builds the RF6528. This is the only gun safe on the market with a UL burglary rating.

Graffunder builds safes ranging from B rate to F rate.

Brown also builds safes B rate and heavier.

Although I have heard many good things about Brown, I have seen some of their safes first hand, and was not very impressed. The fit, finish, and construction for the price was really lacking. Maybe I just saw the lemons, but I have been much more impressed with the Graffunders.

I also have a B rate safe (although mine are cumulative and not solid plate) that I'm selling now that's a fraction of the price of the Browns.


“What is a real safe---to make it easy, how thick and how much money---do you have a site of what you call a real safe---help”

A safe with a UL TL-15 burglary rating. This rating certifies that a safe will resist entry for a period of at least 15 minutes against all common hand tools (hammers, pry bars, chisels, etc.) , power tools (drills, saws, grinders, etc.) and pressure applying devices.

Although it does not have a UL rating, an E rate safe will have similar construction. AMSEC offers a factory built TL-15 gun safe, and Graffunder offers a factory built E rate gun safe.

I’d plan on spending $5,0000 +/- at a minimum, and going up from there depending on the level of security.



“From my personal experience (having investigated literally hundreds of burglaries over my career), most burglars aren't going to spend any appreciable amount of time trying to get into a safe, unless they know what they're after (i.e. what's in the safe). The risk of getting caught vs. potential reward is too great. In addition, your average burglar is a 16-30 year old male, just looking for a quick score. For the average homeowner, a well buit RSC coupled with a loud alarm and pissed off big dog are all you'll ever need to keep your valuables secure. There are always exceptions, but I have yet to see one first hand. My $.02.”

This is pretty much the same in my experience as far as safes in residential settings are concerned.

I have seen safes removed from homes, and broken into at homes, but it's pretty rare. We do see some safes that have been beaten on (usually with tools/equipment found in the home), and some of them tipped over to make the beating easier. Most of the time the safe isn't even touched.

“If you were a regular consumer buying an Amsec BF, what would be the maximum dollar amount in goods (e.g. guns, jewelry, coins, etc.) that you would feel comfortable storing in it? $10,000? $100,000?”

This gets a little complex, because there are other factors involved. Do you have an alarm? What type of police response times do you have? Nosey neighbors?

With just the safe, I'd probably be comfortable up to the $20K range so long as I had insurance on the contents. You could probably increase that slightly if the questions above were answered properly.

Anything over $25K in a stand alone unit should be kept in something more secure. By most standards, a B rate safe (1/2" door, 1/4" body) is not suitable for the overnight storage of cash in commercial service.

The TL-30's that we sell to jewelry stores are usually insurable in the $150K to $300K range depending on the insurance company. Storing cash cuts that number down to 10% of the posted figures.






[A TL-30] safe will withstand a brute force attack from trained safe crackers using all common hand and power tools, in addition to pressure applying devices [for at least 30 minutes].

A safe like this would be insurable in the $500,000 to $1 million dollar range depending on a few other factors.

A meth head and a sledge, axe, and crowbar could be with a safe like this for a week, and still not get in. These types of safes are the equivalent of 1" solid steel plate bodies, with 1.5" steel doors (1" steel plate, .5" manganese steel plate).







I would agree that Amsec makes the best RSC safe currently on the market. I sell both Amsec and Fort Knox. The Amsecs sell to those that want a really good safe, the Fort Knox safes sell to those that want a really good looking safe.

The BF series uses a composite construction which gives it better fire resistance and burglary deterrence than most other safes in that price range. Amsec has been in business for more years than I've been alive. They produce tens of thousands of safes annually. Most of the other gun safes are built by companies that are fairly young, and only produce gun safes. There's no problem with that, other than Amsec is a much more experienced safe builder with the latest technology, engineering staff, and production abilities.

Although the Sturdy and [Amsec] BF are built better than most of the other gun safes on the market, they are still light weights as far as safe construction goes.

The reason the lighter steel of the AMSEC would offer similar brute force resistance to the thicker steel of the Sturdy is because of the rigidity formed by the cement material formed between the two sheets of steel.

Take cardboard for example. On it's own, the brown paper used to make cardboard is easy to rip, tear, fold, etc. Once formed into a rigid structure, it is no longer as easy to do those things.

Every try bending a full sand bag in half? Same principle.

The [Amsec] HS (UL TL-15 to TL-30, HS6743 uses 1” outer steel plate and inner steel plate composite door and outer steel plate with 1” inner steel plate walls in composite construction) series would pretty much thwart any attack made with common hand tools. Once you get to heavy construction, there's not much a hammer or prybar is going to do other than scratch the paint.


Drylight is currently used in safes that carry UL fire ratings. It's proven to work under the harshest of tests. Nobody can show me a safe with a UL rating that uses ceramics as its primary insulation, so I can only assume that there's a good reason for that.



The AMSEC [BF] is almost impossible to beat in its price range.

The body steel is thinner than the Sturdy, but the Sturdy is a single layer of steel with gypsum board up against it. The AMSEC has a double steel wall in which the void is pumped with composite "concrete". This not only provides a better fire barrier, but also make a thick monolithic wall which will hold up better against a brute force attack.

I'm not here to say the AMSEC is a good safe because I sell them. I do sell them, but not very many. There are a lot of people that sell them for less than I do, so people tend to buy them from those sources (this is a different gripe all together, so I won't go into it here). I charge more for mine because of the service and knowledge you get with the purchase.

I'm here to say the AMSEC is a good safe because it's a good safe. Sturdy is a good safe too, although I think the AMSEC still has the advantage from both a fire and burglary perspective. I don't think it's a good safe because I sell them. I don't think it's a good safe because I build them. I don't think it's a good safe because I'm an employee of the manufacturer.

The AMSEC HS gun safes are a huge jump up from either the BF or the Sturdy. If you wanted to step up from the BF or Sturdy, you should be looking at a B or C rated Graffunder (or similar).

AMSEC tests their own products because they are large enough to buy the types of toys to do it, and employ their own engineers that can run the test. Although I am usually skeptical of claims made by gun safe manufacturers, AMSEC is a slightly different story. They are one of the largest safe manufacturers in the US, and have been in business since the 1940s. They have a heck of a reputation, and I doubt they would risk playing the same games other manufacturers engage in.

AMSEC builds their BF safes which I consider "B rate light". They have the 1/2" door, but don't have a 1/4" plate body. They do have the composite fill, which adds to the burglary resistance. AMSEC also builds the RF6528 which is a TL-30 rated gun safe built out of a safe on their commercial line. The RF6528 is actually one of their AMVAULTs refitted as a gun safe. It's a composite safe, which by nature, has very little steel in it. Same is true with many modern day bank vaults. Even the nice looking "stainless" doors are wrapped chunks of "cement" composites.

The RF6528 has no fire liner. The composite fill material is both the fire and main burglary barrier. The shell of the safe simply makes a nice looking paintable surface.

Graffunder builds a true B rate safe (as well as others). They are built very similar to the AMSECs as far as the composite fill material used in the walls. Because of their additional steel, there is some additional weight. These safes are very nice in fit and finish. If the AMSEC was an Oldsmobile, the Graffunders would be Cadillacs.

Brown also builds some of these safes, but I have to say I am less than impressed with them. We installed a custom jewelry safe for a local customer that was built by Brown.

The wood interior was very nice, but that's where it ended. The safe had a terrible paint job, on top of terrible finish work. There was a spot on the corner where they had painted over some rust. The safe was very plain, and lacked features (such as a bolt detent) that a safe in it's price range should have had. They told me they paid $6,000 for it, and if that's the case, definitely got robbed. I could have replicated what they had for half the price easily.

I am not a fan of Brown, because I have seen some very poor products for the amount of money paid for them.

AMSEC and Graffunder are the only two companies that I'm aware of that build real safes with gun safe interiors.

I sell a lot of AMSEC products, and are very happy with them. The company has been around a very long time, and is one of the largest safe manufacturers in the US. Their customer service is good, and their safes hold up well.









Tools like hammers and axes do their best work when the metal is allowed to flex. The faster the metal flexes, the faster it will tear.

Taking your same material, and supporting it on a frame off the floor, it will cut faster than if it was sitting flat on the concrete floor. This is why thicker materials don't tear when beating them with a hammer or axe. They don't tear because they won't flex.

Taking two safes using the same 11 gauge outer skin, say the Liberty and the AMSEC. The Liberty's skin will tear faster as there's nothing to support it. The AMSEC has the concrete backing (in addition to the inner steel liner), which will take longer to breach.

Since many of the Liberties and the AMSEC are in the same price range, you're getting a better buy with the AMSEC.

Chances are good that if your bank was built within the last few years, it has a vault door wrapped in 10/11/12 gauge stainless steel. Think a fire axe will go through it?

Most gun safes have no support aside from the steel shell. The AMSEC has a cast fill between two layers of steel. While it will not provide bank vault security, it is much more stout than other gun safes using a single wall of the same steel.

Of course if you really want to keep somebody with an axe, hammers, pry bars, torches, plasma cutters, drills, porta powers, etc. out, then you need a real safe, and not a gun safe.

There tend to be two different discussions when it comes to safes. There are "best safes for the job", and "best safes for the price". The two aren't always related.

It would take some effort, but you could get into a Sturdy using a pry bar if you knew what you were doing. You could get into most gun safes with a pry bar if you were so inclined. I make this claim because I have seen safes of heavier construction pried open. I have seen B rates pried (1/4" bodies, 1/2" doors), but never anything heavier (pried by hand).

The whole prying discussion is only valid when discussing a burglary attempt by the most primitive of burglars. Prying a safe can be a lot of work, and it usually takes some amount of time. Success is usually dependant on trial and error as opposed to previous experience."

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