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I've made up my mind for my purposes. The early 1920's guns could be 1899's or 99's. It doesn't matter. I returned a lot of the literature I used to write the book but it seems to me as though some Savage literature called them 1899's in later literature after calling them 99's in earlier lit. The rifles are what they are. Let's call the transition rifles 1899/99 A, B, C, etc transition models. The designations at this point don't affect value or anything else I can think of. This only applies to the transition rifles. A 1903 vintage octagon barrel rifle is definitely an 1899 and a 1928 vintage 24" medium weight round barrel rifle with a crescent buttplate is definitely a 99 (99A). Just my view of the situation. This is fun. Let's keep it going. David


wyo1895
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For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
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Thanks to all for the information around this; I learned a lot from this.

I think a 24" 99A in 300 Savage is now on my list.

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Originally Posted by wyo1895
I've made up my mind for my purposes. The early 1920's guns could be 1899's or 99's. It doesn't matter. I returned a lot of the literature I used to write the book but it seems to me as though some Savage literature called them 1899's in later literature after calling them 99's in earlier lit. The rifles are what they are. Let's call the transition rifles 1899/99 A, B, C, etc transition models. The designations at this point don't affect value or anything else I can think of. This only applies to the transition rifles. A 1903 vintage octagon barrel rifle is definitely an 1899 and a 1928 vintage 24" medium weight round barrel rifle with a crescent buttplate is definitely a 99 (99A). Just my view of the situation. This is fun. Let's keep it going. David

Is there the slightest benefit to calling a 1920-1923 rifle a transition 1899C in any conversation, rather than just a 99C? It's just going to cause huge confusion when folks are asking what rifle they have, or can we tell them about their 1899C?
Physically every 'transition 1899' from 1920-1923 is exactly identical to every '99' from 1924 to 1926.

I'd see no problem with saying that Savage was transitioning from calling them 1899's to 99's from 1920 to 1923, but for simplicity's sake we always call them 99's since that's what they finally ended up as.

If we're going to get 100% nitpicky on everything, then we need to rename the 1899 models.

An 1899 Able would be a 26" round barrel with crescent buttplate.
And 1899 Abit is a 26" round barrel with shotgun buttplate.
An 1899 Aback is a 22" round barrel with shotgun buttplate.
An 1899 Abed is a 28" round barrel.
An 1899 Abode is a 30" round barrel.
Etc - up to the 15 models present in 1900. More added later, of course.


The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”.
All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered.
Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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This time period is very confusing and we have attempted to clarify in the past but with little success. Here is some history:
- 1920 catalog and price sheet still lists what Murray calls the 1899-A as a "Model 1899 Solid Frame 26" Reg."

- 1922 catalog and price sheet list it as a "Model 1899-A" (not to be confused with what Murray lists as 1899-A)

- 1924 Retail Price List lists it as "Model 99-A" (note Murray refers to it still as the "Model 1899-A" which I say was an error)

- Sometime around startup after WWI there was a statement by Savage that the Model 1899 would in the future be referenced as the "Model 99"...but then sometime later Savage added the "...1899..." stamping to the receiver ring.

- Roe would sometimes send copies of the ledger page with a requested letter. I have some of these which allows us to see just what was written in the ledger book. I don't have any of the Leger page copies from the period in question.

- The price sheets starting 1922 and maybe earlier list the "A", "B", "C"...etc. designation and states that they should be used when ordering. The problem is that the 1922 PL call out "Model 1899-A". This is the only time I have seen the Model 1899-A vs 99-A used.

- At some point in the Ledger sheets the letter coding was added and I doubt that the item was listed as "1899-A" or "99-A" but simply "A". (note this is just speculation as I have not found a Ledger page copy from this period).

- Now to add to the confusion of Model 1899-A vs 99-A...etc. there are letters from the Historian:
1) Letter from 2007, "...your model 99...serial
193109...produced April 12,1919..."

2) 2165xx, produced 2/16/1920, lettered as a 99-F

3) 2292xx, produced 6/14/1920, lettered as 1899-Short Rifle, Take Down.

4) 2324xx, produced 8/20/1920, lettered as 99-D.

5) 236461, (late 1920) per JTC as the first "99-G". (ever seen the "G" listed as a"1899-G" other than in the 1922 price list?)

6) Then a 2014 letter on 2201xx, produced 3/22/1920, "...ledger book shows this rifle to be a 1899-B (not to be confused with the earlier 1899-B with octagon barrel)..."

Note that all of the above were produced before 1922 when the Price List first showed "1899-A, 1899-B, 1899-C"...etc.

What's right, what's wrong, I don't really care and am not sure we could all agree. I do prefer to call the post WWI with the Savage letter codes 99's vs 1899's just so we know what we are referring to. The big problem with this is at what serial do we use as a changing point? There is so much confusion and missing info on the subject that there still remains a big 1920 gray area (1920 being a big production period with all types of changes made within the model and across the board).

I don't think the above solved anything but hopefully it clarified what the problem is.

Last edited by Rick99; 06/29/16.

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In my previous comment I meant in no way to demean David's or Murray's work. By all means they were monumental tasks to which we all owe a tremendous debt. But for me, I can only take it so far. I work in the field of preservation so I guess the lure of fine detail wore off for me some time back. But this is in no way is a judgement on anyone else's interests and academic pursuits on the subject of Savage and his 99.


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"I don't know" is on third.


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I went into that thing about calling them 1899/99 transition rifles because I tend to try to clarify and compartmentalize things to the best of my ability. In other words Rory is right, just call them 99's.
I didn't take anyone's comments as being in any way demeaning. Murray's book got me started collecting and he did a great job with what he had to work with. I wrote my book because it was past time for an update. David

Last edited by wyo1895; 06/29/16.

wyo1895
With Savage never say never.
For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
[email protected]

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Lucky for me that my interest is focused on 1895's! No confusion there.

Doug


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Originally Posted by Rakkasan
Lucky for me that my interest is focused on 1895's! No confusion there.

Doug


haha is it still an 1895 if the barrel and bolt have been changed at the factory,,is an 1899 with large receiver cheek pads really an 1899?????? you need some confusion infusion in your dilusion. confused whistle

norm


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Agreed!


wyo1895
With Savage never say never.
For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
[email protected]

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I think we have our share of obsessive-compulsives here! smile


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When all is said and done, I do find these books fascinating and a great assist in understanding the 99. Having said that, has anyone thought of doing something similar for the 19/23 series, or the Super Sporters? I suspect the research for such works would be far less demanding and they would make great companion pieces for the 99 books.

Last edited by S99VG; 06/30/16.

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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
"I don't know" is on third.


No, he's in left field!


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Then who's on first?


I'm not greedy, I just want one of each.

Remember Ira Hayes

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Originally Posted by JoeMartin
Then who's on first?


Yes


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What he said!


"The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle." John Stapp - "Stapp's Law"
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Originally Posted by S99VG
... has anyone thought of doing something similar for the 19/23 series, or the Super Sporters?


Would be a good project. As far as I know the only info is the little bit that we have put together here on the "24". We would need a lot more than what we have.


Savage...never say "never".
Rick...

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Originally Posted by norm99
Originally Posted by Rakkasan
Lucky for me that my interest is focused on 1895's! No confusion there.

Doug


haha is it still an 1895 if the barrel and bolt have been changed at the factory,,is an 1899 with large receiver cheek pads really an 1899?????? you need some confusion infusion in your dilusion. confused whistle

norm


Four digit serial numbers are my standard! At least there are only 5000 to 8000 to be confused by! wink

Doug

P.S. I have six grandkids with one on the way. No need to infuse more confusion into my delusion!!!


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I heard once that some of the earliest 1899's had serial numbers in the 9000 range. Has anyone seen one?


wyo1895
With Savage never say never.
For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
[email protected]

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Or were they really late 1895's?


wyo1895
With Savage never say never.
For a copy of my book on engraved Savage lever actions rifles send a check for $80 to; David Royal, p.o. box 1271, Pinedale, Wy., 82941. I will sign and inscribe the book for you.
[email protected]

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