Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Need advice on bang flops

My deer hunting buddy bought a .270 Wssm and says they run to far after he shoots them. He thinks it is embarrassing.
I suggested a 35 Whelen but he ignored me.
Should he try a magic bullet? Or better shot placement.
whelennut

If he's venting the boiler, there's nothing that'll keep them from running.

No magic bullets - high shoulder placement and he shall have the flop he seeks each and every time.

Better shot placement. I haven't shot any deer with anything bigger than a 6.8x43 in a few years and none have gone far.

w n -

I can tell you one thing. It's not because his velocity is too high.

Without knowing his shot placement, sounds like his bullets aren't opening up fast enuff. IF it's poor shot placement, a different bullet won't help.

Jerry

Tell him to quit shooting them in the azz...

THIS ^^^^

If he is using a partition esque bullet, something that expands wider might help, but likely won't make a huge difference once applied to the vitals.

While the high shoulder shot is effective if used correctly, it really messes up the front shoulder roasts which is a sin in my book.

Some situations call for a bang flop, but i've never minded following a short blood trail. It's just a part of it.

Bang flops are the result of destroying the nervous system.Bullets that are too hard will give you great penetration,but may make a smaller wound channel.Find the right bullet along with good bullet placement it will result in bang flops more often than not.Here are some pictures I took of a deer I killed with a 7mag.The deer was about 125yds,velocity of this load around 3100fps,bullet 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.

There 's the answer. Placement. Take out running gear and vitals.

Why would anyone be embarrassed over something as silly as that?

A 270 WSM should knock their noses in the dirt most times with the right placement and bullets.Ribs and lungs not so much...you will get runners regardless of bullets.

He could be shooting a 50 BMG, but if his shot placements off..... Hit 'em in the boiler room and they won't go far. Works for me. Get to the range and pay your dues.

As someone said, if you want a bang flop you have to disrupt the central nervous system....it takes precise shot placement.


Another pic: definite bang flop on an oryx.

And yes, it was with a .223AI..

There must be something wrong with your buddies .270 WSM. Every deer I shot with my .22 magnum went right in a heap.

But it takes an extra hand to hold the flashlight...

Lots of people still looking for the magic deer bullet.....

Shoot it in the damn shoulder and watch it fall.

Everyone better listen to blackheart. He's shot more deer than me and makes 1911's for a living. He JUST DOES IT BETTER!

Im guessing a head shot with the 22 magnums?

Your buddy can't shoot for schit. The Whelen isn't some magic round, nor is anything else.

For a "bang flop", it's CNS or nothing. That's the only guarantee.

"He thinks it's embarrassing".... what kind of a jackass is worried about that instead of a clean, humane kill?

I've shot deer through the lungs with a bunch of different bore diameters from 6mm to .458".

I cannot *conclusively* say there is a whole lot of difference, though my feeling is that speed contributes.

I shoot, they run. Some farther than others.

The bigger diameters cause more external bleeding.

Bullet selection is paramount, especially if one wants to break running gear. That's when the death-runs become much shorter.

I believe (the saintly to some) Jack O'Connor used to reflect on some scribes of the time writing that the 270 Win fell short of being adequate for deer since they, the deer, seemingly developed an iron coated hide since the days of black powder. Shoot them where they live and they don't live long.

Sean, you simply must break out of your shell and work on being able to express your opinion....

He needs a .270 Ingwe cartridge, the bullets go just the right speed to create bang flops.

Or alternatively, shoot straight

I've shot several deer with 130's out of .270 Winchesters, and all were DRT. I do run them as fast as I can, but it's no big trick to get 3100+ fps with 130's. I have to think 3350 out of a WSM would give the same result as 3150 with the same bullet.

Patrick: that was mean.


Ive been nice to you all day.

Earlier in this thread I drafted a longish dissertation on ways to ensure that CNS shock would be forthcoming. I decided that it was a bit pedantic, so I just erased it. My wife has the best solution. Every time she hears stories about blood trailing, lost animals, etc., she says (assertively), "Shoot 'em in the head!"

My father shot a good number of deer with relatively fast stuff, 300 Win. mag with 165s, 7mm Wby. with 139-140 grain bullets, 264 Win. mag with 120-129 grain bullets, 270 Win. with 130s out of a 26" barrel. Interlocks, Sierras, Ballistic Tips. Some deer would drop straight down while others ran surprising distances with heart-lung puree draining from the chest cavity.

I've shot lots of deer with 12ga slugs of various brands. AND, I've shot deer with 243, 270, 35 Rem, 358 Win, 38-55, & 35Whelen.

Now days, just gimme a 243 or 270 for the most consistent B-F results. I hate tracking deer! Bigger isn't always better.

I shall endeavor to persevere to that end.

Let me take a guess

It zips through them so fast they don't even know they've been shot.

I bet the bullet is going so fast it doesn't even expand.

I've heard that one.

Yeah, I hear it all the time from guys that can't shoot worth a crap and pack a magnum of some kind and never find their deer they hit through the guts.

150 grain Sierra Gameking. Hit them where they live most of all.

When their eyes bug out after the shot, they usually don't go far...

at least I didn't show the photo

About 2'??

I'll get told I'm ignorant but ive seen it dozens of times from my friend and my dad. load some 90 grain Sierra varmint bullets in that wsm and keep them in the ribs. they won't run very often but if they do it won't go far. If you hit that shoulder it gets iffy. My dad used this combo for a while and only once we had a hard time finding the deer, but we found it. I'd personally run that wsm with a 130 accubond through the shoulders and track very little.

DRT, on the run, through the shoulders with exit. 130 Partition./270 WCF. Same old "same old".

Nothing mysterious.

I wish they would let us shoot whatever we want here, and let us make the choice.

Deer are not hard to kill.

MILLER TIME!

Yes indeed Paul! haha!

I agree that deer are not hard to kill. However they can be hard to find. Especially if you shoot them just before it gets dark and there is no blood trail. I had a deer that I hit just before dark get half eaten by the time I found it the next morning. If they make it into a swamp then the real fun begins.
I think my friends problem is that he gets to be teased by guys that are in a hurry to find the deer so they can go into town.

I'll sacrifice some shoulder meat for a short trail. Better than letting what the coyotes don't get stay warm for a long time because then I've sacrificed all of it. It isn't always that cold where I'm hunting.

Problem also might be that he shoots them too late in the evening. I never understood a lot of this low light business,where people shoot deer too late and too close to cover where they can disappear and not be found until morning. In coyote and wolf country you are going to likely lose them. You have to use some discretion. Just because you can take a shot doesn't always mean you should.

One thing for sure....your buddy is barking up the wrong tree if he thinks jumping around to another cartridge or bullet is going to solve his problem. He needs to learn some discretion in shot selection and conditions.

Just my 2 cents....

Yup

Bob,
You are correct.
Where we hunt the hunting pressure is pretty severe and the deer will bed down almost all day in the thick stuff, and move at dusk and dawn.
We sometimes nap in the midday because the deer are doing the same thing.
Unless the rut is on we rarely see a buck during daylight hours. We see them alongside the highway after dark.
It is very frustrating.

Usually deer are moving and in thick cover. I passed on a big eight pt. Last season but most guys shoot at anything they see and good bullet placement is very rare around here.
My kids are good shots and use 30 caliber and we never have a problem.
Sometimes the trees jump in the way to block the bullet like the Secret Service do in the movies.
whelennut

whelennut, One of our Kansas crew does the same thing!

Hey....I was tired. Watching the Kane boys shoot big deer is very taxing....

It was warm and sunny.......

I think that is good strategy to lull them into a false sense of security.

Yeah...that's it! Thats what I was doing.

Just keep kicking that can down the road and look dumb......

I have actually taken a nap and woke up to a deer or turkey.

High shoulder shot will break em down.

Funny story, a friend fell asleep sitting against a log. When he woke up a doe had her nose stuck about 6" from his face. Rumor was he screamed like a little girl and the doe took off both of them none the worse for wear

It's post like this that make me doubtful about coming here!!

grew up where every deer i ever saw shot had a hole in the head or neck. comes along the mid sixties and the gun writers all started acting like head/neck shooters were ranked with pedophiles. boiler room shots if kept high work good for bang flops but head neck shots are gar en teed.

my mounts are mostly European and a third eye adds a little for me.
i have only ever had to track 2 deer in 55 years and by that i mean look hard for sign, not follow a red highway a hundred yards.
shot a buck at 150 yards with a 308 loaded with combinded tec bullets. entrance was just behind the elbow. no exit. also no lungs, no heart, no diaphram,and just chunks of liver. most internal devastation i ever saw. that buck ran 125 yards with no blood trail. deer just do what they do.

look closely in the background, you'll understand all the advice you need on bang flops. About 220 yards. 308 Win and 168 smks.

Nice shot!

Hear, hear!

?

That sure is a big-eared bug....

I've had a few bang flops that I would have preferred them to run off a little and be dead when I got there. They can bang flop on the spot, but that doesn't always mean you don't have to finish it.

Even with the head almost totally gone, the organs still need time to die....FWIW.

I've shot a few low shoulder that went straight down, but were not giving it up all that easy. I waited a little bit on one and said that won't happen again.

The few I've shot in the head, it was over when I got there.

^^^This guy knows how it works^^^

Big game cartridges are immaterial. What bullets fired from them destroy is. Nothing living remains in that condition without topside blood flow. Destroy blood pumping and/or blood oxygenating equipment of any big game animal, and it will die. Biology, not cartridges, is controlling.

The new world record Yukon moose, the largest deer species in North America, was killed a couple years ago with a .303 British.

I shoot a 270 WSM (usually 140 gr Accubonds) and I've had deer run a surprisingly long ways from good chest cavity shots even when they were literally gushing blood. I've also had bang flops from shots that I wouldn't have expected to result in one such as the liver or lungs just ahead of the diaphragm. Most often they do a little death dash and tip over but some deer show more will to survive than others - seemingly with no explanation.

I lost a buck this past season that I hit twice from about 60 yds away. First shot appeared to be a good chest hit just behind the front shoulder and the second was an attempted anchor shot that i know was too far back as he dashed into the brush. My buddy jumped the buck about 150 yds away from where he was initially hit but incredibly he'd left his gun behind and the buck stumbled off. He had left a great amount of lung blood in the area he was jumped from but the trail ran out and even with a tracking dog we never did locate him after many hours of trying.

A good chest hit results in a recovered deer in a very high percentage of occasions but once in while there is an outlier that is hard to explain.

With shots to soft vitals, they die from blood loss and oxygen depletion. This can take a few seconds and a frightened deer can cover 50--200 yards (whatever) in that time,although I can't recall many that made it that far.

Bow hunters seem tuned into this and expect it but rifle hunters are a weird bunch expecting deer to be electrocuted and dispatched on the spot, citing formulas for energy and effects of tiny bullet shards from blow up designs,seemingly never considering that bullets behave differently at 500 yards than at 50.

My guess is the precise shot works better than a magic bullet.

I agree!

Well, everyone wants to dance around and ignore the real issue. He bought a 270 WSSM as a subconscious act of 'coming out'.

Tell him to take out the front running gears and they will fold.

I used to hunt with my late wife's family and they always bitched if the deer ran after the shot. They felt like the deer was suffering.
I don't hunt with them anymore, Thank God.
When I first bought this place I took a shot at a big buck quartering away and I was surprised how far he went. I was using a 200 grain Hornady and actually found the bullet which is very rare for the 35 Whelen. My favorite round now is the 375 H&H loaded to 2,200 fps with a Hornady 220 gr. Or Sierra 200 gr flat nose.
They drop pretty fast.
This year I am using the 35 Whelen with 250 gr.

The .375 is an amazingly versatile cartridge, and the bullet range options are incredible. There was an older fellow I used to hunt with that bought a pre-64 Winchester M70 in .375H&H when he got back from 'Nam. He wanted a .30-06 and couldn't find one, but got a deal on the .375. That was the only centerfire rifle he ever owned, and he loaded everything for it; shot everything from crows and groundhogs on up to bear with it. Those same FNs you're talking about at max speed will fling goo with a groundhog like a hot .22 will with prairie dogs. Just make sure that you don't use one loaded like that on deer - unless you're ready for a LOT of meat loss.

When I hunted N. central WI, there was a guy that went in on the same forest rd as us that used the .375. It's all he used as well. Bought it as a kid to hunt Alaska and figured if it was fine there, it was fine for WI. We always knew when he shot.

As far as bang-flops. I've had plenty. But when they drop, you gotta watch em.

I've had two get up that I was almost sure never would. I'd rather have it go a few yards after the shot. Hell, even if they make a few hops, they'll still go 20 yards or so.

The last buck I shot, a 200+ pound 8pt, was shot perfectly though the heart. I was using a 145gr speer, in a 7x57mm. He did the mule kick, heart shot deal and crashed for about 5 seconds. He made it about 30 yards with literally no heart, and a busted offside leg.

Spot on. YOu sure better watch bang flops, I try to for as long as I can.... you just never know.

Anecdotes...

Older gentleman here, shot all his deer in the flank with a 220 swift. Did the gutless cleaning on them. Supposedly never had a one do anything but drop.

IMHO if I had to body shoot and demanded drt, I'd be running as much velocity as i could.

But even running 257 wtby and 100s... I've had deer make it 50-60 yards, and buddy had a small doe, make it almost 200 steps. Lung/top of heart shots. OTOH most of them including my largest buck to date, generally go about 15 steps.

OTOH the 300 whisper subsonic, they might go on average 50 steps... not a big deal.

As to calibers and killing, shot placement is alwyas it. I"ve taken out a lot of pigs in my days. Last winter I took out quite a few over 200 pounds which is more than our average buck weight wise. Probably 30 percent of those or so were killed with sub sonic 22lr hps... the others were killed with the 300 whisper. Granted quite a few where head shots but not all...between the 2 rounds, never saw one go more than about 75 yards, and that was one with the whisper, the 22, generally about 30 steps or so if lung shot.

What I would like to know is how far are these deer running on your friend. This may just be a matter of expectation. The other questions I would have would be:
1) The range at which he was shooting these deer
2) Where he was aiming.
3) Flinch

Most of my deer over the past decade have been taken with either a 30-06 or 35 Whelen from inside 165 yards. Almost all had the tops of their hearts blown off and both lungs pulped. A good number drop on the spot. However, a sizeable number run a bit. I would say that with rare exception, I can stand in the tracks of the deer where I shot it, and see where it went down. It might be 10 yards. It might be 60. I don't see this as a problem.

One thing I noticed with my sons early on was their tendency to subconsciously move their aim towards the center of mass instead of concentrating on the chest. They would swear they'd sent the round towards the boiler room, but they were hitting behind the diaphragm. This is a matter of confidence. The cure was simply getting enough deer under their belts.

I'd also be looking at the 3-dimensional aspect of shot placement. I like taking off the top of the heart, but if the angle is wrong, I might only hit one lung. Now I have a runner on my hands and it might be lost. If your friend is just picking a point on the hide and not considering how the bullet will travel, that will give him the sort of trouble he's having.

I've had the most bang flops out of fast rounds shooting fragile bullets, a 7mm rem mag shooting 140 ballistic tips was my go to for a long time. They rarely moved out of their hoof prints with that one. I quit using it when I had a couple of blow ups that were kind of ugly. I still recovered the deer but it was clear the bullet was overtasked when hitting bone so I switched to tougher bullets. Now I aim for the high shoulder and hope for the best. I get about 50% bang flops now and just track the rest, they usually don't go far. I've shot 15-20 deer with the 35 whelen due to Mississippi's crazy primitive weapons season where they're legal. I've only had a couple of instant kills with it. Tough bullets moving slowly don't impress them like a fast, lightly constructed bullet.

Bob's comments about low light hunting are interesting, it shows the difference between hunting in the north and west vs. the south. If I didn't shoot deer in low light I wouldn't shoot many deer, and almost certainly wouldn't shoot any quality bucks. I'd prefer to shoot them in broad daylight but they set the schedule, not me. Same thing with shooting them next to thickets, I'd rather have them in the middle of an open field but they don't cooperate on that one either, it does little good to hunt where the deer aren't. So I'm left shooting them at last light next to a thicket, which is where they immediately head if I don't get one of the aforementioned bang flops. I don't wait until morning to recover them, a good flashlight and headlamp are always in my pack and blood trailing at night with a good light isn't any big deal if the shot is good. It's rare I carry a deer out of the woods in daylight, that's just the way it works in the deep south.

Doesn't really matter much what you shoot, just about any gun will produce bang-flops if you hit the animal right.

On my last cow elk hunt with the Kimber 338fed, I shot a cow in the base of the neck and she went down so fast I didn't see her drop. I was just about to shoot again when my buddy yelled she's down, don't shoot! On a deer hunt, a hunter in our group jump a nice buck in some trees. He fired and the woods exploded with deer. He fired at the buck again and saw it go down. When he walked over he had three dead deer. Two bucks and a doe. I know he only fired twice, cause I heard him shoot. Fortunately there was an extra tag in the group, but we had to smuggle the doe out.

Got to be careful with bang-flops.

No doubt it's not a problem where you hunt. But there are areas/circumstances where a 50ish yard run could be a big problem: off a cliff, across a boundary fence, or into thick rattlesnake infested thornbrush.

I can see an issue of a cliff or boundary.

But I"ve trailed so many into thickets, including S Texas stuff, that it just seems like, and again its IMHO, learning to trail and trailing now and then is not a bad thing because no matter how good you think you are, sooner or later you'll have to trail to find a dead one or worse yet trail a live wounded one.

Of course those that are bowhunters have no choice and since we bowhunted almost totally for 20 plus years, trailing is no biggie and actually a fun part of the puzzle for me. Still is today.

But now, I ended up with a dog thats a super trailer and TIger goes with me to the woods all the time, and we have fun watching him trail. Sooner or later he'll calm down to where he'll lay still and follow close and slow when I roam around, but he has yet to spook a deer.... but I digress.

Shoot for them to drop on the spot if you want to, but trailing here and there is always good as a refresher.

Light and fast bullets, TTSX if I run that route, tend to have the shortest trails. But again if you really have to have it, the ONLY way reliably is CNS.

I"d hate to shoot a mountain goat in teh head to drop him, but even then, dropping him may not save him... same with sheep...

Try a 125 grain bullet out of an 06 into a cottontail.

A 125 from a 260 is pretty tough on a possum.

I found a few boxes of factory 125s in 06 years ago, stuffed em into one of our garands and shot pigs.

The only bang flops we ever got where CNS hits. But even lung shots rarely went very far.. The head hits with the 125s made a bit of a mess.

roost: to each his own. I've done plenty of tracking in my time. Don't think more practice is going to improve my skills at this point.

And getting my hands and knees bloody, crawling thru thornbrush, sometimes with a flashlight in my teeth, when the temps are often in the 80s and sneakysnakes are active, is something I have done my share of, prefer to avoid henceforth!

No doubt it's not a problem where you hunt. But there are areas/circumstances where a 50ish yard run could be a big problem: off a cliff, across a boundary fence, or into thick rattlesnake infested thornbrush. [/quote]

Yes. I'm taking the majority of my shots in the middle of 200 acres that I own. My big problem when I'm in freezer-filling mode is making sure they stay out in the middle of the pasture, so it's easy to run the truck right up to them. I wish I could train them to run into the truck.

What I can tell you is that even with the most care and the most successful shot, I cannot guarantee the deer won't run a little. I do not recommend head or neck shots, just because a slight miss can cause a disaster. I've also taken out the shoulder blade and had them run a bit, with just their back legs pumping. My best luck has been a completely perpendicular broadside shot where the heart and both lungs are involved. That usually gives me an instantaneous toes-up configuration. That's with a 30-06 and 165 grainers. I've tried 25-06 up to 35 Whelen, and have not seen an improvement.

A run of 300 yards? That's shot placement.
A run of 50 yards? That's a problem with expectations.

Crow Hunter i assume I am the "Bob" you mention above.

Yes in northern New England for some reason you are more likely to kill a buck between 8AM and 3 PM than you are earlier or later. I don't know why but suspect it's relatively light hunting pressure, thick cover, and big woods. The deer will move with impunity throughout the day and especially a buck in rut.

But you have other issues to deal with and they are low deer density and big thick cover. Plus no agriculture in many areas and food sources are not well defined. This sort of spreads deer out over big country.

Of course deer are deer and there are open areas near power lines, clear hurts and some agriculture. Deer do tend to sow early/late in these places but the latest I have killed them have been maybe a 1/2 hour before the end of shooting time.

But we have the same problems as everyone else in terms of grassing them quickly.One of my two biggest whitetails was killed at almost full dark in a huge Alberta field as he quartered toward me on a full run.A shoulder hit wth a 270-130 NPT dumped him in a pile.

I know it's conventional wisdom to go with fragile bullets for fast kills with soft tissue hits,but I have found high velocity with tougher bullets placed through bones and angled into vitals to give shorter trails and more dramatic results (mostly no trails at all). I especially look for those kinds of shots as distance increases, velocity drains and reduces bullet upset.

We talk about DRT with deer sized game but they aren't the real problem....that comes once you get into bigger, tougher stuff like elk. Watch a big bull take a hit squarely through the lungs at 300-400 yards and barely flinch at the impact and your first reaction is.....holly shidt did I hit him or do I need a bigger rifle?

Yes. I'm taking the majority of my shots in the middle of 200 acres that I own. My big problem when I'm in freezer-filling mode is making sure they stay out in the middle of the pasture, so it's easy to run the truck right up to them. I wish I could train them to run into the truck.

What I can tell you is that even with the most care and the most successful shot, I cannot guarantee the deer won't run a little. I do not recommend head or neck shots, just because a slight miss can cause a disaster. I've also taken out the shoulder blade and had them run a bit, with just their back legs pumping. My best luck has been a completely perpendicular broadside shot where the heart and both lungs are involved. That usually gives me an instantaneous toes-up configuration. That's with a 30-06 and 165 grainers. I've tried 25-06 up to 35 Whelen, and have not seen an improvement.

A run of 300 yards? That's shot placement.
A run of 50 yards? That's a problem with expectations.

[/quote]

A head shot taken correctly, has about zero chances of a bad outcome, unless a miss is a bad outcome. But thats my take on it, after being taught a method and learning to follow it period and never deviate. In all my years of head shooting I've had one issue, that took some time to sort out.

I hear ya. But practice is what keeps anyone good. I"m not old, only 51, but I think the only thing that will keep me from enjoying looking for one, is going to be the issue of not being mobile anymore.

My best buddy, a few years younger, has always run the other route, kill em and hopefully they fall into the bed of the truck or on a road preferably.

Its' usually not cool here, but I've also done plenty of 80 temps trailing. Hell I kind of like messing with the rattlers too.. they make it a bit interesting. Love spring hog hunts south, when its warm enough that they are out.

I have to say tracking is the hunting skill that is most atrophied. It's right up there with asking landowner permission. The latter is not so good, because I've been hunting the same plot for 15 years, and I'm the landowner. The only tracking jobs I have to perform are for other people, and I have two dogs that usually run out ahead of me and camp out at the carcass.

However, a lot of that lack of tracking is due to planning. If I know a deer is almost certain to run into an impenetrable cedar thicket when shot, I will probably hunt somewhere besides the edge of said thicket. I've pretty well abandoned a couple shooting venues, because every time I shot a deer, they ended up rolling down to the bottom of a ravine, and it was 6 hours of hard labor getting them out. At 45, that was sport. I'm 58. I ain't old, but I'm getting smart, and that kind of sport wears thin after a time or two. I've got plenty of places to hunt on the farm. Places like "Heartbreak Ridge," "The Black Hole," and "Soggy Bottom" I'll leave for the uninitiated.

Last year, #3 son, Angus shot two. The first was a nice buck, the second was a doe taken late in the season. He had to chase her into a creek bottom, and then drag her out about 60 yards to be available to the truck. He was bitchin' about having such a hard slog over a lousy doe. My advice was simple: Wait until she's further out in the field to shoot. That way, even if she runs, she drops before she crosses the barbed wire.

Aim between the two bright eyes...

.22 WMR works every time.

It's not the caliber/round, it's the candle power...

DF

It works just as well in the daytime too. We were actually using it on a crop damage permit to reduce noise due to a nearby housing development.

Crypes I never heard of anybody so scared of having to drag a deer. I'm 54 and have been diagnosed with hypertensive heart disease {enlarged heart} am being treated for high blood pressure, irregular heartbeat and moderate kidney disease yet dragged three out nearly a half mile by myself last season. Tell Angus it won't hurt him a bit.

He's not scared, but he's like his old man. He thinks about the big picture. As it was, we had weather coming in, and another 15 minutes or so, the field would have been too wet to get the truck out. If there had been no truck available, there would have been no mad dash to the processor, and the processor was not going to be open on Sunday AM. As it was we got there with 15 minutes to spare. Sometimes you have to bust a hump to be lazy.

Four wheel drive is a nice thing to have sometimes. I don't have to worry about getting anywhere on time after I kill a deer as I always process it myself.

You're right. 4WD is great. Except this was freezing rain on grass and a slope that only one of the 4wd vehicles could take without sliding when it's dry.

See, that's kind of my point. He could have just as easily tagged a doe out in the middle of a flatter piece of the property that night. He was expecting the rain to hit after 2100, and decided to hunt close to the house. Instead the rain hit 3 hours earlier, and immediately started to freeze -- just as he was locating the doe.

Back to the bigger point: I've been fielding questions like this for over a decade, and it's true there are head shooters and neck shooters that swear by their methods. They've never lost a deer and they all go down in their tracks. That's fine. I have no beef with them. The problem I see here is somebody has a 270 WSSM and does not have the experience to know why the deer run. This is still a beginner, no matter how many years he's been in the field. I'm not inclined to say switching to head shots is going to solve the problem.

I had a similar question a number of years ago in regards to my Whelenizer. The difference was I'd brought down over a dozen deer with it, and I was not seeing any improvement in performance on whitetails from my 30-06. Most deer were going down right away, but a few still ran. The consensus of the guys in this august forum, was that 35 Whelen was not going to be that big of an improvement on whitetail-sized game, especially inside 150 yards. I lowered my expectations accordingly and went on.

I think we all agree that the problem is not the bullet or the chambering being inadequate. I will leave to others whether use of 270 WSSM on whitetails may be a sign of incipient homosexuality. Either way, I would say the round itself is adequate. My question is the sense of someone who would take a do-or-die shot where no amount of running is allowable. That is just begging for an unwanted adventure. Were I faced with a cliff on one side, a rattlesnake infested thicket on the other and the immenent arrival of comanches on my rear flank, I might seriously consider forgoing the shot and finding an easier place to hunt. Kentucky comes immediately to mind.

Just curious cause I hunt the same area, also with the Whelen - what bullet are you using?

It's probably "overkill" for WT and some combination of shot placement and luck mixed in but every deer I've shot with the 225gr Partition has dropped right there. Not real heavy or real slow, about 2600 fps, and mid to high shoulder shots. The 225gr Sierra didn't work nearly as well, same for the 180gr Speer FP and 250gr Hornady RN. I'll stick with that Partition, it works for me.

I don't mind tracking them, it's no big deal, but sometimes dragging them out of the brambles in the dark is a pain.