Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Interesting pre 64 70

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/573447262 This one could be interesting to watch. For whatever reason I thought they were all standard weights.

it will interesting to see the followup comments, TAG

The roll stamping looks all wrong to me.

Fake. Winchester would have never let that gun leave the factory with the address beneath the stock line and the Definitive Winchester Proof in a vertical orientation. The barrel bluing is also not right. Obviously, there are a few who think it's the real deal....

I'm in agreement with you Pocono. The proof stamp, kind of makes you want to run the other way...

Polish on the barrel seems wrong.
Not liking the fit of the front sight.

Flat spot around roll stamp.
I could be wrong...

Caliber designation should be 250-3000 SAV.

...the originality speaks for itself alright! I'd be willing to bet that this was a product of a little shop somewhere in Korea or Japan.

Kicking around M70's since the 1970's among a lot of sophisticated shops and collectors. Never seen these things and all of a sudden these "rare" calibers show up.

Never any factory authentication but we know how that goes .

What I want to know is....where were these rare rifles the last 50 years?

For the time frame this rifle was built ( assuming original) what rifling twist did Winchester use 1/10 or 1/14?

Doc

1 in 14"

The marking is so poor that it looks laser marked

No expert here but the bumpy nature of the barrel lettering looks more like modern laser engraving, not roll stamping. Could be just the picture but would be enough to give me pause if I were a serious buyer.

Bidding up to $2500. It's ashhame someone is going to get taken on this one.

The letters look like mis-strike you'd find on a coin. The only way it could be legitimized if it came with the original box.

Scarcest M70 I recall actually seeing in the flesh was a pre war in 405 Winchester. Supposedly one of a pair, but it had a factory letter of authenticity. The whereabouts of the other was unknown.

IIRC these rifles were mentioned in a footnote or somewhere in Rule's book.

Never seen nor heard of these scarce FW chamberings that have suddenly popped up the last few years.

The fakers would have no problem coming up with a box. There is no way that gun is legit....

Bidding up to $4200. Damn.

A fool and his money are soon parted so says WC Fields. I believe he would be correct in this instance.

...rear sight is after market. Flat sides.

Bob, doesn't the lettering look all bunked up? Should also be "250-3000" too, instead of 250 savage, don't you think?????

Never saw a legitimate M/70 with laser markings nor with the proofmark in the vertical orientation. The rifle screams fake on many levels, whoever faked it shows an obvious ignorance of how a real M/70 looked. In more than 40 years of buying and selling pre'64 M/70's I have only seen a handful of .250-3000's, all were standard weights.

Same here. Immediately upon looking at it I thought the font was all wrong.

it's a fake lazer etched or pantographed <sp> caliber marking

bsa: You guy have sharp eyes for detail from a collector standpoint. Been years since I paid THAT much attention and I'd have to dig out Rule to answer.

Something does not look right.

Seller ended the auction....

I wonder if he figured out it was a fake or if someone offered him a big payday.

Woo, that one stinks.

Well, the auction is over and the bids never got to the reserve, so somebody dodged a bullet. I wouldn't touch a Winchester like that without a letter of authenticity from the Cody Firearms Museum.

All of the pre-'64 Winchesters that I still have from my Father's collection are lettered, so that when my kids sell them, the buyers will know that they are the real deal.

Shame on the seller, if they didn't know it was a fake. If they did know and still tried to pass it off as original as their description implied, that's far worse. In either case, I won't be doing business with them. The world of collectible Winchesters is not that big and as a seller your reputation is everything. Scratch that one off the list...

I wonder if the magazine box and parts were original 250-Savage? They never did show that.

Where would they get a 25 caliber pre 64 FW contour barrel?

The entire barrel is probably a fake, since the only other factory specs pre-'64 70 barrel with a .257" bore would be chambered in 257 Roberts and that would have to be set back to have the chamber recut.

I couldn't imagine having to swallow a pill that bitter 260.

Metal guts from a standard rifle, bottom metal from a FW, presuming it's aluminum, the barrel was probably standard and came from a lathe.

And yes, shame on that sombitch, he knew better than to try and pull that BULLCHIT!

It's surprises me that this one didn't come from a well known seller in Florida.

Hopefully, the seller ended the auction after he was convinced that it was a fake. But, sometimes Gunbroker sellers make deals with people to buy guns and they end the auction and complete the deal off line. At any rate, someone is either unhappy that he found out it is a fake or is going to be unhappy when he finds out it is a fake.

I have a pre war 250/3000 in a carbine but it's still a standard weight barrel, just shorter

Where do you get a P64 M70 lettered?

Correct regardless of the truth of the matter.

Cody Museum?

SN 412324 if anyone wants to take the time...

Polishing room records (ie. the date a receiver was serialized) exist for a certain serial # range of early pre64 M70's. There are no records indicating caliber or configuration for any other pre64 M70's with the exception of a few Special Order Guns for which records exist and provenance can be documented.

Just found that out; looks like sn 49135-54805 is the range.

Fake

Could it have a barrel from a post 64 rifle on it?

I couldn't reply when this was fresh. I sometimes have serious compatibility issues with 24 hr CF.

Somebody bought all of the leftover parts and machinery in New Haven. The roll stamps etc were also in that inventory.
That is where some of these fakes are coming from.

This gun was a low quality fake. The markings were definitely engraved, not roll stamped. Also the improper proof mark.

I knew a guy, RIP, who would machine inserts and reclaim Improved or Rechambered chambers. This was done years ago; long before CNC machinery was affordable or even existed.

CNC machinery is a boon to forgers in all areas, not just guns.

For gosh sakes it's a BACO Special Run.

There are a host of thieves out there creating fake "rare" caliber barrels for the model 70, or even just mixing and matching genuine Winchester parts to create a rare configuration of gun (e.g. taking a .30-06 super grade stock and sticking a .257 Roberts action into it, making a .257 SG rifle). These people gut the collector market, forcing true collectors to shy away from any gun without a fully-documented provenance. It's a pity, especially when you consider all the work these counterfeiters go through for a relatively small amount of profit.

This particular fake is so bad, it really is more of a novelty item than a fraud. The badly engraved barrel stamp is so poorly done it is not going to fool even a casual collector. I guess there were people bidding on it, so it seems it was working to fool somebody, but I'd hesitate to put this rifle into the league where the true counterfeiters are playing ball. In some cases, these guys are making rifles so closely matched to the original factory guns that they are nearly impossible to distinguish from the real thing.

Justin

Nice to have you aboard Justin. Feel free to share your experience and wisdom on the fine subject of the all mighty pre 64 model 70. I started a thread, "let's see your Winchester model 70's", you might be interested in posting some of your nice builds on. That or start a new thread, explaining who you are and what you do. The last email you sent about the difference between the pre 64 receivers was good info. Keep them coming...