Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Federal Ethanol Fuel Mandates and Changing Fuel Supply Demand Boater Vigilance

Ethanol is crap and doesn't belong in a internal combustion engine.

But methanol is fun...

shopping for a new chainsaw right now because of ethanol .

I agree that ethanol is crap and shouldn't be in gasoline at all.

That being said, the wanking over ethanol is way overblown. Almost all marine engines have been built to run fine on E10 (10% ethanol) for 30 years, E10 isn't going to hurt your boat motor. E15 (15% ethanol) is the stuff that the enviroweenies and corn growers are trying to force down our throats, most car and boat engines aren't made for that. E85 (85% ethanol) is a whole other animal and anything that isn't labeled "flex fuel" isn't going to run it.

I trust she quit using E85 a long time ago? The hype on that died out some years ago.

Woot Woot gas $1.76 here today. crude headed to sub $40.00 bbl good news good news maybe the alcohol will just go away. Know it won't but makes it easier to drive 40 miles to get ethanol free gas for small engines

The EPA is setting mandates and standards independent of Congress. Obanogo just signs their proposals into law. The only pushback they get is from lawsuits by companies or citizen groups.
If Hillary gets in you can bet they will swiftly move to E15 and into E20.
The American Automobile Dealers Association has pushed back somewhat but they need to remain vigilant.

It'll "run" with ethanol, but it doesn't run as well with it and causes all engines to work harder. The biggest problems caused by ethanol don't have anything to do with "running" though. Ethanol gasoline separates much faster than non-ethanol leaving water in the tank. It also dissolves fuel lines and resins (especially in fiberglass).

It may be fine for racing engines that are disposable, but it is nothing but a curse for normal engines.

and its crap for spark plugs too, I recently replaced 4 plugs after 12,000m. corrosion was bad but I was running E70.

I'll refer back to someone here who said on a post, that he adds a 1/2 gallon of diesel to his fuel tank, at each fill up.

I believe he was from Virginia, Wayne Shaw maybe?

Well with the frustrations I deal with every summer dealing with ethanol, on my lawn mowers, I was willing to try just about anything, from sacrificing a chicken to about any other suggestion.

So I went down to the gas station, bought a gallon of fuel, and threw a quarter's worth of diesel in it.

Unbelieveable, but my mower ran like it was brand new on its first tank of gas even tho it is 16 years old, no sputtering etc.

On my trip to Colorado for the Pike's Peak Hill Climb, and down to New Mexico for the 24 Hour Campfire Get2Gether at Quemado, you run into 85 octane ethanol fuel all over. Pulling a trailer and doing 80 to 85 mph on the freeways, with the 85 octane ethanol, the Pilot has less power and also got about 16 mpg.

Kid ya not, add a 1/2 gallon or so of diesel to the tank, and it once again had its usual power, plus the mileage went back up to anywhere from 22 to 24 mpg.

Diesel is suppose to retard the flame of the spark, and up the octane. But another thing I am thinking it does, is where ethanol attracts Condensation and water, diesel has additives that are in it to combat water attraction and Condensation.

that has pretty much been tested for about 10,000 miles on the road over the last 60 days in my Pilot and a couple of thousand miles in my Camry over the same time period. The Camry averaging an extra 10 % to the fuel mileage, and at times as high as 15%.

Also runs smoother and with more power, just like in the mower engines.

I don't think it is a wonder additive, I think essentially what is doing most is combating the crap that ethanol gives us.

YMMV LoL....but in 12,000 miles of trying it, I've seen very positive results.

My formula has been pretty simple.. if diesel is $2.50 a gallon, I throw in a $1.25 or it... if its $3.00 a gallon, I throw in a $1.50.... then fill my tank.

I picked up an ATF fuel at Walmart, and pump the diesel slowly into the tank with that, since a diesel nozzle is too big to go into an unleaded tank.

I'm sure someone was waiting to ask those questions.

And I get my ass kicked by semantics again!

Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline so naturally it's going to produce less power running E10 than straight gas. Ethanol doesn't separate from water, it's hydrophilic so it absorbs water, when it reaches it's saturation point the water falls out of solution and you get water in the tank. That's the reason it's not good to leave it long term in a tank especially in a humid environment. Straight gas isn't good to leave long term either, but ethanol's worse. It won't dissolve any fuel line on a boat or car made in the last 30 years, they've long ago changed the rubber formulations to be resistant to ethanol. Same thing with fiberglass resin, if ethanol is dissolving it you've got a really old boat or the resin wasn't properly catalyzed. Ethanol shouldn't affect it.

I don't like the stuff at all in gas (love it in the single malt I'm drinking now) but it's not going to hurt any late model boat engine just like it's not going to hurt any late model car. Your '66 corvette ain't going to like it nor is any boat motor from that era. If you're running anything built within the last couple of decades it's not going to make any difference.

Trouble with Ethanol


Will New Regulations Mean More Costly Problems for Boaters?

Unless you haven’t put fuel in your car in the past ten years, you’re probably familiar with the term E10. It refers to the 10 percent ethanol that is blended into the gasoline you buy at the pump. If you’ve owned an outboard-powered boat during that same time period, you are far more familiar with E10 than your over-the-road counterparts.

The introduction of ethanol into the U.S. gasoline supply was the result of an EPA regulation called the Renewable Fuel Standard, and it caused a lot of costly headaches for boaters at the 10 percent level. Now, the EPA is doubling down under intense pressure from the agri-industry’s ethanol lobby in Washington, increasing the mandated amount of ethanol in gasoline to 15 percent, a move dreaded by boaters and marine engine manufacturers alike.

Ethanol is derived from plant sources, mostly corn, and the government mandate has been a major boon to farmers and refiners. Basically, it is a fermented and refined grain alcohol that is denatured and then blended with gasoline. It initially found its way into the nation’s fuel supply as a replacement for a chemical additive called MTBE, which was used to increase octane and reduce emissions. After years of use, the EPA determined that MTBE was harmful to the environment, and the hunt for a replacement began. Domestically manufactured ethanol replaced MTBE, and was also promoted as a way to reduce the nation’s dependency on foreign oil. However, the use of ethanol in fuel came with a host of problems for marine engines and fuel systems.

Above: This is an example of phase separation, which occurs when ethanol absorbs just one half of one percent water by volume. The ethanol bonds with the water and sinks to the botoom of a fuel tank where the engine fuel pickup is located.

Not long after the introduction of E10 gasoline, boats using it began experiencing problems. Almost immediately mysterious substances began clogging fuel filters that were later identified as a byproduct of mixing fuel still in the tank containing MTBE with ethanol-blended gasoline, but that was only a harbinger of things to come. Fuel lines approved for gasoline engines on boats reacted badly with the ethanol additive and started breaking down causing clogged filters; and in cases where the problem was not identified quickly, possible fuel leaks were the result. Any sludge deposits in older fuel tanks began dissolving and were pumped into the fuel system, damaging components and making a mess of filters. And boats with fiberglass fuel tanks were subject to the added nightmare of ethanol actually eating away the resin, which required replacement of the tank and in many cases, serious damage to expensive engine components like valves, carburetors and injectors.

Why were all these problems manifesting as a result of a simple switch from MTBE to a 10 percent blend of ethanol? As mentioned, ethanol is a form of alcohol and alcohol is a highly efficient solvent. So when it is introduced into older metal fuel tanks, it gradually begins to break down accumulated sediments and washes them into the fuel system. Those same properties can cause resins and fillers used to make fiberglass fuel tanks to leach out into the fuel system where they adhere to internal engine parts. Ethanol-blended fuel can also be responsible for the decomposition of rubber gaskets and fuel lines that heretofore had been approved for use in gasoline fuel systems.

Boat and engine manufacturers took on the challenge of upgrading their products to avoid these problems going forward, and have done an admirable job. Yamaha Marine was an early leader in identifying these problems and correcting them in their popular lineup of outboard engines. They upgraded fuel systems with hoses and gaskets that are resistant to ethanol’s solvent properties. The company also developed injection systems and revised ignition modules so that Yamaha outboards can run efficiently with E10, which has a lower combustion temperature and therefore a slightly lower power output than gasoline without ethanol. Even though most of the problems with E10-blended fuels have been accounted for by outboard manufacturers, there are still some issues that are inherent to the product that continue to plague boaters.

Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air. While this is rarely a problem in automobiles that live on dry land and have sealed fuel systems, marine applications are another story altogether. Boats live in a moisture- and humidity-rich environment, and boat fuel systems are vented to the atmosphere. Without venting, an outboard’s fuel pump would not be able to draw fuel from the tank. Venting allows outside air to enter the tank along with moisture and humidity where it contacts the ethanol in the gas.

“Water can and will collect in your fuel, and when the concentration of water molecules reaches just one half of one percent, those molecules will bond with the ethanol in the gasoline and sink to the bottom of the tank where the fuel pick up is located,” said David Meeler, Product Information Manager, Yamaha Marine Group. “This is called ‘phase separation’ and depending on the amount of water ingested into your outboard, it can result in everything from rough running to catastrophic engine damage.”

In the new brochure titled “Maintenance Matters – A Simple Guide for the Longevity of Your Outboard,” Yamaha offers the following recommendations for avoiding the potentially damaging effects of burning ethanol fuel in your outboard engine.

1. Be sure to use a 10-micron fuel/water separating filter­—with proper flow rating for the engine—is installed in the fuel line between the tank and the outboard. This will filter out any debris that ethanol might loosen in the tank, and it will separate out and collect any water from the fuel. (Yamaha offers high-quality canister filters with large water collecting reservoirs for their outboards.) Filters should be replaced every 100 hours of operation or checked/replaced more frequently if the presence of significant water is found.

2. Add a high-quality, marine specific fuel stabilizer and conditioner to every tank of fuel. Yamalube® Fuel Stabilizer and Conditioner is a non-alcohol-based formula that helps counter some of the problems associated with ethanol blended fuels. They caution boaters about claims from some additive manufacturers stating unequivocally that, “no additive will restore stale fuel, remove water or cure ethanol-related issues.”

3. Add Yamalube® Ring Free Plus internal engine cleaner to every tank of fuel. It will do the job of keeping your fuel system clean and corrosion free.

4. Buy your gas where they sell a lot of it! Today’s ethanol-blended gasolines have a notoriously short shelf life and actually begin to degrade in a matter of days after refining and blending. Purchasing gas at a high volume retailer helps insure you are buying the freshest gas. Then be sure to add stabilizer and engine cleaner at the time of purchase. This will go a long way in helping protect your investment in your outboard engine from ethanol problems.

The problems created by the initial introduction of ethanol into the fuel supply were widespread and costly to both individuals and the marine industry. The increase to 15 percent wll have far-reaching consequences.

If you are like many boat owners who only use their boats on weekends or even less frequently during the boating season, it’s advisable to keep your fuel tank level at 7/8 full with properly stabilized, fresh fuel. Keeping your tank at that level helps prevent condensation buildup in the tank while the boat is not in use. Condensation occurs when any moisture in the air in the tank condenses with changing temperatures. It is another source of water entering the fuel and bonding with the ethanol.

With all of the problems associated with the use of E10 gasoline in marine engines, you would think the federal government might do something to mitigate the effects by reducing ethanol requirements. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The EPA, under the guise of the Renewable Fuel Standard, is mandating a 50 percent increase in the use of E15 gasoline, which will further exacerbate the problems associated with ethanol in marine engines. In an interview with Martin Peters, Manager, Government Relations for Yamaha Marine in Kennesaw, Ga., he laid out the case from the marine industry against the ethanol increase, along with a dire warning for owners of existing outboard engines.

“The marine industry has determined through research and testing that E15 harms outboards by doing internal damage to moving parts such as valves and pistons – devastating, irreparable damage,” said Peters. “While Yamaha could engineer outboards that will run on E15, doing so would increase cost to the consumer without increasing consumer benefits.

“More importantly, if E15 becomes the predominately available fuel in the U.S., that would leave ‘legacy’ outboards at risk of damage,” he continued. “There are more than 10 million outboards currently in service that would be destroyed by the damaging effects of E15. As an industry, we cannot allow this to happen to consumers.

“We strongly urge consumers and members of the marine industry to make their voices heard and stop the EPA from going forward with a plan to increase the amount of ethanol in the fuel supply. They can do so by contacting the EPA—or their Congressman/Senator—directly over concerns that higher ethanol blends will have on their products or by accessing a number of marine advocacy websites such as the National Marine Manufacturers Association® (www.nmma.org).” Y

Come on down lets hit $1.50 or less come on come on !!!!!!!!

She doesn't use E85, I don't even know anywhere around here to get it. I've only seen it in Yankee land.

I'm going by what our book for the car states.

That does NOT jibe with my own experience,... or many others here.

Well than I trust you will stay away from Yankee land seeing that the Civil War is still on.

Again, it has NOTHING to do with the Civil War and everything to do with so many stupid, white people there that vote for Obama and his ilk.

It's about making money selling a subsidized product.

I've had a lot of problems with ethanol in small engines also. There's also a big problem with ethanol in gasoline that the EPA is aware of and doesn't tell us consumers about. The auto makers are very aware of it and will void your engine and fuel system warranty if they find too much ethanol in your fuel system. The problem is called "Phase Separation". When the ethanol in gasoline combines with enough water to reach the saturation point the ethanol/water mixture sinks to the bottom of the tank. Since pump pickups are on the bottom of the fuel storage tanks you have no idea how much ethanol/water you're actually getting when you fill up. Ethanol is used to raise the octane of gasoline so since the fuel tank will pick up the ethanol/water mixture first you'll be left with low octane gasoline which damage your engine with pre-ignition and detonation. The auto maker are well aware of this problem. A lot of today's gasoline engines run pretty high compression ratios to improve gas mileage. My friends direct injection Chevy pickup has an 11.5 to 1 compression ratio.

http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html