1) let me say that I previously had a post stating my Maximum OAL on my Tikka T3 Swede was 3.138. that was grossly understated. I recently purchased a Hornady OAL Gauge and verified the ACTUAL Maximum OAL touching the lands is 3.201
This with Lapua Brass and a Berger VLD 140.
I was also having heavy bolt lift and that has been remedied.
With those items taken care of, I have a few questions:
1) I worked up some loads to an OAL of 3.171 (again using lapua brass and vld 140's) How far out can you seat these without issues? I am using a RCBS Competition seating die (micrometer). To try to fine tune, can I seat them out farther, or do I need to start jumping them farther incrementally to try to fine tune?
2) I will post the results below but as You will see, with the RL22 I got to the point where I actually started losing velocity as I increased the charge. There were NO signs of pressure on any of these loads so wondering if that simply indicates I have hit the maximum powder that can be burned before exiting the barrel and thus the groups opening up and the speed decreasing?
Any feedback for a newbie would be greatly appreciated.
Obviously I asked a dumb question based one the lack of responses. I am simply confused based on the feedback I got at my local sporting good store where I bought the rifle and the reloading supplies.
When I saw the decrease in velocity with an increased charge I immediately looked for pressure signs on the case , bolt lift, etc and found none. I then assumed that since I was loading to 100% of the fill ratio and higher on the 3 charges that decreased velocity, that I was compressing the powder and that because of this, there was not enough airspace to efficiently ignite/burn the powder, thus decreasing the velocity.
I talked to the local reloading supplier and was told that was not the case and that I should simply keep increasing loads until I saw pressure and that velocities should be increasing. They told me to reload similar charges and double check the data.
I thought I would reach out to this forum to tap into the knowledge as I understood that typically increasing a charge and getting a decreasing velocity is a sign of pressure and I need to back off.
As I said, I will do my homework and see if I can get to the bottom of this as clearly I am missing something simple based on the lack of responses, and likely head shaking. I am simply reluctant to take the direction I have been given as it seems dangerous.
The reloader cannot accurately predict chamber pressure based on external observations like bolt lift or primer appearance, or the absence of those indicators.
I tend to follow the observation that when velocity stops increasing in a linear fashion with the trend line or reverses, that I may be over max pressure at that point, or more simply, that the benefits of continuing to add more powder and pressure and the resultant velocity benefit is at a dead end.
But outside of having a calibrated strain gauge all this is largely guess work and speculation, so why even go there?
As a reloader for many decades, I refer to the valuable resource of data collected at great expense as provided by the manufacturers, developed by highly paid expert technicians in their very expensive laboratories after countless man-hours of dedicated research...all for free. I like free.
I am usually comfortable working up to max published loads more often, but sometimes not, and there is usually no benefit to exceeding max published loads for that last 50fps, I am mostly interested in finding the most accurate load with moderate pressure, and without burning up pounds of powder in the process.
I check the published lab results against my chrono readings to find out where the rifle and components I am working with are at on the spectrum. Chronos are subject to measurement errors, but are close enough on average.
I'm not a fan of RL-22 but it is a very popular powder for all it's quirkiness. I do prefer the single based powders in that burning range.
Internal ballistics is a manufacturing science of average results in a world of many random variables, so there's no need to confuse yourself by overthinking it.
"Supernatural divinities are the primitive's answer to why the sun goes down at night..."
Berger has seating depth Recommendations on there websight. Following them will save you time and money. What you should think about is that if you run the bullets in the lands.And push them up in hard enough.Eventually you will,someday, have to unload a loaded round.If the bullet sticks in the rifling.You have a mess on your hands.I typically avoid doing that on my hunting and target rifles. Sometimes especially with VLD bullets stuck up in the lands they shoot very well.So its suductive.But sooner or later you will get burned. Just looking at your loads.Ive seen that pretty often. The "ideal" is that as the powder charge increases the velocity goes up as well.But give or take .2 of a grain of powder isnt enough of a change to really show what your getting. I would change to .4 of a grain and look at primers and bolt lift. Most book maximums are lawyer safe.So I would not get to excited about blowing the thing up. Sooner or later you will get pressure. Untill you get done playing around with the thing wear your saftey glasses. A chronograph tells you one thing and one thing only. How fast its going. The speed the thing is running is actually irrelevant. It always boils down to how well it shoots. Period. kinda nice to get some case life as well.But in the end it has to shoot accurately. You did not say what this rifle is going to be used for. If your just messing around VLDs are a good way to pass the time. For hunting big game there are much better bullets than VLDs. For pure target work VLDs are a PITA as there seating depth sensitive. I pretty much give the VLDs a pass for that reason alone. Hope this was helpful.
The numbers I don't see that are very important are the extreme spread (es) and standard deviation (sd) which are usually given in a summary by your chronograph. That could explain what you are seeing in the numbers on velocity.
Don't rely on your local sporting goods store for reloading advice.
Don't necessarily believe your chronograph if it's an inexpensive one and you're shooting in changing light conditions.
Stay within the maximum loads given by the bullet manufacturer. All bullets of the same weight are not equal when it comes to generating pressure.
When you say "I was loading to 100% of the fill ratio and higher," if by "fill ratio" you mean maximum charge listed in your reloading manual, stay at or below that. Until you have more experience under your belt.
The numbers I don't see that are very important are the extreme spread (es) and standard deviation (sd) which are usually given in a summary by your chronograph. That could explain what you are seeing in the numbers on velocity.
David
Thanks Shooter. I do have the SD and ES, I will dig in and digest them.
As far as what the rifle will be used for--some coyote but mostly WhiteTail/Mule Deer. I do hunt Prairie Grassland as well as some very rugged terrain so the shot opportunities can get long (longest I have taken a deer in the past is just over 400 yards which was with a .270) which is around my maximum range I am willing to go based on my current trigger time. In the future I could se myself going a little longer which is why I am reloading. Swede over the shelf loads are pretty tame so reloading is really the only way to go with this rifle.
I do have some ELDX and some ABLR bullets I am also going to work up loads for to see which shoot the best.
I guess I am learning but pretty embarrassed to state my measurements on the moa on the original post were center to center so not the most accurate way to measure. I guess I will stop using both my local sporting good shop and google and will figure this [bleep] out eventually.
thanks for the feedback....and tips. I really do appreciate them/
Velocity is one thing I'm not hung up on. I do use a chrony in load development, but the ES and SD across more than three or five shot groups mean more to me than average velocity. I do want to know my average velocity when punching numbers into my ballistics programe while assembling a drop chart, but thats just another number to calculate along with others.
I always felt for a new reloader their time is best spent learning proper case prep work than simply dumping powder, squishing a bullet over top of it, and going to the range to find anything meaningful in total velocity while shooting over a chrony. Its fun and new I'll admite it. We were all there when we started.
I now have tools on my bench that I scoffed at starting out more than 20 years ago. Concintricity gages, 1 inch spline mics, mics to check case neck wall thickness, good hand priming tools. Primer pocket uniforming tools, deburr tools for flash holes, more dies than you could ever make use of in a life time. I guess what I'm driving at is we accumilate all these gadgets for one goal. Accurracy. Not velocity but accurracy.
If you are getting into the longrange game, accurracy is your friend. All the velocity in the world cant bring you accurracy, it just brings you a faster miss. Once you get beyond 500 yards a fast non accurat round is a cold hearted pita. I can adjust my drop chart for a slower round, but i cant do that for an inaccurate one.
If you want a faster bullet shoot a faster caliber but still make accurracy your goal. Load the most accurrate round in a faster caliber you can find and live with the velocity you end up with.
Often a few buddies of mine shoot for fun. Winner doesnt have to buy the beer at the end of the day. Some of them shoot 300 winnys, 7mm mags. Even one shooting a 300 rum. I shoot a custome 30-06. 168 gn berger VLD .005 into the lands in lapua brass, 57.3 gns of IMR4350 lit with fed match primer. Average velocity is around 2800 FPS Best group to date .376 with that load, but averages closer to 1/2 at 100. And I was laughed at when i first brought it out. I wack steel plates all day long out to 500 more accuratly than their factory jobs that they never load for.
If I really want to scare them, I take the 6mmBR. That sucker is so accurrate its almost boring to shoot. It really is like cheating with that thing.
A shooting range acquaintance of mine got started handloading for a couple of hunting rifles about three years ago and he caught the bug.
A little while back I saw him doing some chrono testing for a new rifle, a Rem 5R Milspec in 300 Winchester magnum. He had loaded some 180 grain SST Hornadys and had them shooting pretty well. I noticed he had seated them to the cannelure so I mentioned the Rem 700 magazine has a lot more room to work with. I also suggested not worrying so much about velocity and let a high BC carry the mail downrange. (He has a personal spot where he kills pigs out to 900 yards or so.)
Well the light came on. The next time I see him he's loading the Berger 210 VLD seated well out on top of H1000 and he's got bragging group pics of his 800 yard target.
I believe you are using a Tika sporter 6.5x55 to learn to reload for long-range shooting. Good idea, it' a good choice, and can be rebarrelled later to a heavy-weight barrel. The strings you showed us are excellent, but you will run into information-overload with such a small increment in that size case. You have the ES for each load, so you will see a strong overlap at each step. There is too much overlap at each load...It MAY overlap to maybe the second increment. I understand that the unmarked loads are 5-shot? The rest are 3-shot? I believe you to say that you seated the bullets to a .030" jump? That does sound like a bit for VLDs. I would set them a LITTLE closer. You are measuring the groups center-to-center of the two widest in each group? Sounds good. You shouldn't have any trouble finding the centers. I don't know any other way. I've heard others discuss different ways, but I usually reject them. If you prefer one way over another...and are consistent, I see no prob. Have fun, Gene
I don't believe you ACTUALLY showed a loss of velocity, I believe it was a natural over-lap of random numbers due to such a small sample. I like to shoot a series on the same target, if the rifle is accurate enough not to mix the groups, which yours is. I make my own targets, but an NBRSA target is good, as it has six aiming points on each piece of paper. If you have a crosshair, aim at a corner of the square. "aim small, miss small." the corner is infinitely small. If you use a dot, use a circle the same size as the dot. I use several targets depending on which rifle I am using,ie 4MOA/inches using 2 1/2x scope on my 7x57 Mannlicher-stocked "woodsey" rifle, or 1/2" at 200yards for my long-range varmint 6.5/06 IMP with a fixed-power 20x and a 1/4MOA dot. This way you can see any changing in the shape of the group as you increase the charge. Later, you can do the same thing if you run a series with changes in the jump. The barrel tends to form larger, circular groups that change size as you get closer to the sweet-spot, then then they get larger, again. If you can gain enough velocity, you will get to another sweet-spot. The only thing to stop you is when the primers pop, cases split, and cases melt/stick, lol. Results vary depending on the weight/bedding of the barrel Have fun, Gene
Thank you for all of the feedback. One more question. In regards to adjusting the Jump to the Lands, because of the long throat on this rifle, the OAL to lands with the VLD140s is 3.201, the OAL to the lands with the ABLR 142 is 3.257, and the OAL to the lands with the ABLR 129 is 3.265.
With the VLD 140s set at 3.172 I don't think I can seat them much farther out which means I am jumping them .029. The ABLR 142s I set up at 3.182 so I am jumping them .075, and with the ABLR 129s I set up at 3.180 so I am jumping them .085.
All of these are seated out pretty far and still have a very hefty jump. Not sure I can go much farther out and still have a bullet I can bang around hunting without worrying.
With the long throat on this tikka, what are my options?
Thank you for all of the feedback. One more question. In regards to adjusting the Jump to the Lands, because of the long throat on this rifle, the OAL to lands with the VLD140s is 3.201, the OAL to the lands with the ABLR 142 is 3.257, and the OAL to the lands with the ABLR 129 is 3.265.
With the VLD 140s set at 3.172 I don't think I can seat them much farther out which means I am jumping them .029. The ABLR 142s I set up at 3.182 so I am jumping them .075, and with the ABLR 129s I set up at 3.180 so I am jumping them .085.
All of these are seated out pretty far and still have a very hefty jump. Not sure I can go much farther out and still have a bullet I can bang around hunting without worrying.
With the long throat on this tikka, what are my options?
When firing LRX's one of my 6.5's had its best accuracy at .120" jump. The other was .180".
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
I am not sure what your jump is. You may be right. Jump is measured at the bullet-diameter on the ogive. I measure it with my Hornady tool (comparator) so that whatever bullet I am using I know what the jump is. You found the chamber length with the Hornady (formerly Sinclair) tool, but you probably didn't use THAT number in your notes. The COAL number varies more than the comparator number because the bullet tips vary more. The VLDs usually, not always, by any means, are more accurate with a minimum of jump, when the other bullets use quite a bit, as illustrated above. The ABLRs might be tested at .050" or so, with some tests a bit longer. Have fun, Gene
Hit the range with some new test loads as I am going to stay away from the RL22 due to temperature sensitivity. Found a few that look pretty promising (3 shot groups).
Seems to me your barrel is not long enough to maximize the slower RL 22 powder. Your getting consistent half moa from a factory rifle and still wasting components looking for a load? WTF man?
Hit the range to get some 5 round groups with several of these loads over the last 10 days. Want to make sure the results posted above were not a 1 day wonder.
Once again had great results with several of them. This rifle will shoot sub MOA with almost anything I throw at it!
For deer hunting, do I NEED to keep working on fine tuning--no. But I love it, and it gives me more trigger time and more consistency ensuring that when it is time, I do my part.
I am down to 4 loads now and will do 10 shot groups of each and pick one.
Glad I decided to start reloading for this rifle. I was thinking about offloading it due to the factory loads/accuracy being less than optimal. This has made me a reloader for life.
Sounds like your making some good progress now. I too couldn't give 2 shcitts about every last bit of velocity for the LR game. As longs as I'm getting reasonable velocity with good groups then who cares if I have to dial 6.5 mils or 8 mils to get to 1000yds as I'm still dialing anyways.
As long as my groups are good with low ES and SD then I'm happy as those 2 figures tell me my loads are consistent thus accuracy should be consistent.
I usually start at about .30 jump for a hunting bullet and chosen powder. Once I find a load with promise I will load 10 each at .20, .25, .35, and .40. If any show improvement I work that, if not I stay where I am.
I completely agree about the SD/ES. those are 2 areas I originally was giving little attention but now play a very key role in my load development. In regards to jump, i would have never believed that a .10 change in jump could impact accuracy the way it does. I can attest with a couple of the loads (specifically the ABLR 142) it can be night and day. I have already messed with jump a bit and found my sweet spot with the 142's is an OAL of 3.180-3.190. With the 129's it doesn't seem to matter as much as they perform similarly from 3.165-3.185. The VLD 140s in my rifle want as small a jump as possible (unfortunately my throat is too long to get close to the lands) .
Don't rely on your local sporting goods store for reloading advice.
Don't necessarily believe your chronograph if it's an inexpensive one and you're shooting in changing light conditions.
Stay within the maximum loads given by the bullet manufacturer. All bullets of the same weight are not equal when it comes to generating pressure.
When you say "I was loading to 100% of the fill ratio and higher," if by "fill ratio" you mean maximum charge listed in your reloading manual, stay at or below that. Until you have more experience under your belt.
Smokepole gave you some sage advice right there. You would do well to heed it.
I have never played with the 6.5mm vld's so it is hard for me to comment there. The 215 amd 200's shoot very well in my 300WM but the 212gr ELD-X'S consistently shoot tighter for me so that is what I use.
I have always heard that as long as you have decent neck tension it's fine to seat the bullet out to whatever length leaves atleast one caliber diameter of bullet in the neck. In other words for you as long as you have 264 in the neck you should be fine.
You said you had the Hornady chamber gauge, so run a vld to touching the lands, pull it out, Mark the bullet and see how much is left in the case neck. Based on my experience I'm betting there is plenty.
It doesn't make a hoot 'n hells difference what the ES, SD, BS, or PP is as long as the damn things go where you want them to and you don't blow you or the rifle up!! Stick with what the loading manuals say do and don't be fartin around trying to make the sumbitch shoot like onto a lightening bolt!!
After moving away from RL22 and to the H4350 and H4381SC I have had exactly zero signs of pressure on the loads listed above but with the velocities and accuracy I am getting there is no point in pressing any further so I am not going after any more velocity. I will simply be playing with the seating going forward.
In addition have had others at the range with me who are much more experienced in reloading who have checked my brass, etc to ensure there are no pressure signs. Lastly my local smith actually checked brass as well and then fired some of the rounds I had worked up to ensure there were no issues/pressure signs. All checked out.
Reloaders much smarter than me have said that the classic "pressure signs" are not reliable indicators and by the time they show up, you could be operating above "safe" pressures.
Since pressure = velocity you're much better off relying on your chronograph, taking into account the length of the test barrel used to generate the load data.
Good Morning Smoke, I saw your post this morning around pressure and how I would be wise to determine pressure based on velocity (from chrono) and factoring in my barrel length.
Are you referring to something along the lines of "QuickLOAD" If so, Is there a specific program you recommend or is QuickLOAD it?
Morning Swede, what I'm saying is that rather than rely on pressure signs to know when you should stop increasing the charge weight, rely on your chronograph. So, when you hit the top end of velocities from your reloading manual, you're at the top end of safe charges for your rifle. Sometimes, with some loading manuals, you can exceed those but they're good guidelines.
Use the barrel length given with the reloading data; many loads are shot with 26" barrels and you shouldn't expect to duplicate those velocities with a 22-incher, or 24 for that matter. The general rule of thumb is 25 fps loss per inch of barrel length.
I've been loading for a 6.5 Swede T3 as well for about 6 months now. My best accuracy was with the 143 ELD-X loaded .005 off the lands. I had great results with H4831SC and reloader 17 with both the 142 lr AB and the 143 eld-x. The 142 lr AB printed just over 3" at 500 yds while the ELD-X printed closer to 2". I loaded some more AB with a .030 jump but haven't had time to shoot yet. My ELD-X load I ended up with Reloader 17 being my go to powder but will test one more time when the temp drops to freezing to clarify my load.
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