Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Redding type S fl dies in a factory chamber?

Good day,

I know there is a reloading section but not everybody strives for the same kind of accuracy and most long range shooters/hunters puts in a little extra effort to get the most out of their rifles.

Do the brass get over worked when using these in a factory rifle? Will I be better off with neck sizing in factory chambers?

thanks

Pieter

Okay, first off, the type of chamber has little to do with this choice. A bushing die has some drawbacks, as you size case hardening ensues, so neck tension changes. More often than not, more than one bushing is required. The way to get around this is to anneal.
Also, a bushing die will cause a donut in time, a normal die with expander will not in the same way.
A bushing die that bumps the shoulder will work the brass the least, all my Forster dies are bushing bump dies, these are better than Redding and cheaper.
The choice is really whether you want to spend the extra money when a standard die with the correct set up will achieve a similar product. I have standard dies in the same cals as my comp rifles that I have used inadvertently and had the same accuracy.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

I put a lot of hours into testing sizing dies for brass growth and concentricity of loaded ammo.
The result was I stopped using Redding full size S dies.

I now with each new cartridge:
Get a FL die from Forster with the neck honed out by Forster.
Get collet neck die from Lee. Polish the:
a) collet
b) collar
c) mandrel/ decapping pin
Get an off the shelf sliding sleeve seater die from Forster.
Get an off the self SAAMI chamber reamer from Brownells.
Get an off the shelf Go gauge from Brownells.

Last year I did a 6.5-06 A square and that took some real talking on the phone with Forster and Lee. It is much easier if I stick with standard cartridges.

I have proven time and again that brass prep, or lack thereoff, is more important than the dies you use.
If you set your dies correctly, the end product is similar.
I have also found that tight cases are less accurate than loose cases. I think I know the answer, but, will keep it to myself.

Cheers.

Interesting, I've found just the opposite. Although a lot depends on how one defines highly technical terms such as "tight" and "loose."



Can you elaborate on this? I'm wondering how a die that bumps the shoulder works the brass less than one that doesn't, like a neck sizer?



Also could you please elaborate on this? Don't all dies (bushing and non-bushing) harden the case in the neck area? And don't bushings allow you to size the neck just enough to get the right tension, resulting in working the brass less and less case hardening than a die with a fixed neck that sizes the neck down smaller? I don't see how this is a disadvantage. Aside from the need for different sized bushings. Which allow you to continue to get the right neck tension if/when the neck thins.

The amount the brass gets worked using an FL die depends on the individual chamber and how you set up the die (how far down you screw it) but I'd have to say in general, you're better off (in terms of not working the brass as much) using a neck sizing die, ideally one with bushings.

You should be measuring runout too if you're not already. In most of my rifles I get better runout with a neck sizer than an FL die, but not all.

Even neck sizing your brass, you would eventually want to bump your shoulder back or FL resize for the brass to chamber reliably--especially on a hunting rifle.

I think you would be better off, prepping your brass, light neck turning and checkin/sorting brass and rounds for excessive runout.

I like the bushing dies and have both FL and NS dies, but if I had to pick one I would go with a FL bushing die.

Oh, and read up on work hardening and annealing as stated above.

I read that a lot and have FL dies but with my .260 and .243 I have some brass with 6-8 loadings and haven't seen the need to bump the shoulder back. Probably some with the .308 with that many loadings too.

WHich brings up another advantage of neck-sizer bushing dies--for cartridges in the same family (.308, 7-08, .260, .243) you can use that same die and just switch out the bushings.

That is interesting. I have always done it after 4-5 firings just from what I have read. I may see how long I can go before a hard chambering comes into play.

As you said, same family can use same die but different bushing. I did not know that until recently when some one told me. Works fine going from 6.5 CM to 6 CM on a test I ran.

I run the 260 and 243 at only moderate velocities so that could have something to do with it.

Smokepole,
The disadvantage of a bushing die is that it forces a donut on the INSIDE of the neck. Also, if your brass is fired in a generous chamber, as most SAAMI chambers are, there is NO advantage to using bushings, as the case is still reduced then expanded in the chamber again.
Also, an expander will make a neck rounder than a bushing, simple physics.
A bushing die that partial FL sizes each time will work the brass less because after a certain number of firings with neck sizing, you will have to push the shoulder and case body back to get it to chamber again, even an unsized body is being worked everytime it is fired from springback.
It is quite possible to size a case just under the springback dimension allowing a slightly loose fit, what I do, and still get lots of firings on each piece of brass. I have never found a neck sized case to be more accurate or last longer than a minimally sized case that is just short of chamber spec. Hard bolt closure will result in crooked cartridges, whereas a slightly loose case will self centre as the bullet reaches resistance on the lands.

Cheers.

Rigby:

I haven't seen donuts inside my necks, and my neck-sized ammo is concentric and accurate which is the real crux of the matter. And "hard bolt closure" is not my idea of a tight-fitting case.

If you want to talk "simple physics" then there is a definite advantage in using a method that works the brass less which is what a properly-sized bushing does vs. a conventional FL die, in most cases.

As far as the superiority of an expander, I'm not buying that either. Many will size their brass in a bushing die without even using an expander as I do for some of my rifles, and get very concentric and accurate ammunition.

I'm sure that your methods work for you as mine do for me but we'll just have to disagree on these points.

Not quite. I agree on the expanding to the chamber part, but there's the other direction of brass movement to consider. For example, a standard 308 Win size die will reduce the OD of the case neck to .330", or even a little smaller. This is fine with thin WW brass which winds up with a loaded OD of about .332" or .333". However Lapua brass, brass from Federal match ammo, and a lot of LC, WCC or other "NATO" type brass winds up with a .338" loaded neck. So the sized neck OD for those ought to be about .335". It follows that with a conventional die the latter types of brass wind up getting an extra bunch of cold working: the excess .005" down to .330" and then .005" in the other direction when the expander brings it back up to the ready to load .335".

By proper selection of bushings, or by use of the Lee collet die, the excess cold working in the sizing down direction can be eliminated.

My preferred sizing method is a Lee collet die paired with a body die, or a Forster FL die with its neck honed to suit the thickness of brass I'm using.

That mirrors my experience with the 308. With WW brass my FL die works fine and produces straight ammo. With Lapua, the neck sixer bushing die is much better, without the expander ball.

It took me 10 years to get to that same point.

I have played around with all sorts of dies to reduce runout including the type S dies. if your using a bushing die there really isn't a way to get the most out of them without also neck turning. The reason is the bushing when sizing simply moves the neck wall variances to the inside of the case thus making runout even worse in my experience.

currently I have played around with the type S FL die with my 223 loading since I load so much of it. Also its not feasible to neck turn it either in this case. What I do is find out how much the expander is pushing the case back out and try to match the bushing size pretty close to that. So when I pull the case back down its just brushing the expander. I have found this is a pretty good setup and yields some pretty decent cases. I also try to lube the insides of the cases a bit more all to keep the expander from really pulling on the cases, because that is the step I have found that seems to bring the runout so bad into my cases.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I was thinking about the Forster die with the neck honed, but they are not available in South-Africa at the moment. Hopefully the chamber in my rifle is not too sloppy.

Thanks

Pieter

cummins cowboy,

Not exactly. I use a lot of bushing dies, and only one is used with turned-neck cases. Otherwise I just sort cases for necks varying no more than about .001" in neck thickness variation and get excellent results.

This is what I have experienced as well. I have bushing dies for almost all of the cartridges I load for. Neck size only I have great variation in run out due to the case not being supported inline with the neck sizer. YMMV