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would you rather be????

The bang flop thread got me wondering. Seems as if many on here are overly concerned about what they and their rifles can do. Gotta be a .75 at minimum to brag on. A one inch rifle is nothing to consider keeping to some. Forget the fact that most of the .75s do so with cherry-picked groups, but that is for another day. Bang flops have become the current fad.

Only a little conversation goes on re how to be a better than an average hunter. I guess that is pretty boring in that you can't brag on targets, but anyway who would rather have superior game finding skills over shooting skill. Believe me when I say there are undividuals out there who see things the rest of us miss. And they do so consistently. They may not be able to outshoot others, but they punch tags, often when better shooters can't find anything to shoot.

I'll take superior game finding ability and be content with getting by shooting skills every day of the season.

Bang flop is an objective analogous to jousting with windmills. Tin foil bullets are not the answer IMHO.

A one inch rifle is good for elk and deer clear to 600 yards, if the shooter knows what he is doing with it.

You can't "teach" people to hunt except in a very general way. Some are observant, attentive, intuitive when afield and others couldn't find an elephant in a phone booth.

It does seem that many are intimidated about hunting deer while on the ground today. If you took away the tree stand I swear many would not know what to do.

In the last 11 seasons of hunting here, since moving to Canada, we have managed to take a buck each every year & in some years an additional Doe or 2.

We do this with a couple "modest" centerfire rifle/scope combos. They/we produce honest 1.25 MOA groups.

For me, woodsmanship & knowledge trump all.

I'm also not really interested in group shooting, other than to verify consistency.

What I work very hard on, is knowing exactly where my cold bore shot is going to impact !

My .02, YMMV

Yep.

Although I'll confess to being rather persnickety in how my equipment performs, I know I could do the same with a whole lot less.

As well, I've never once been geeked up about a "bang-flop" or "DRT'". If I dump them, I dump them - if not, I'll follow a blood trail.

Amen to that.

I shoot to stay off the shoulders and ruin as little meat as possible.

I tend to use mono bullets though I run bergers at times.

Mostly they run. No big deal to get down and go find em. Dog loves his work anyway, though he has more fun with others don't quite kill em right off. But I prefer they don't suffer personally.

The only way to get a guaranteed DRT is CNS shot, so if I desire that and a nice animal to gut with the least mess, I simply head shoot them if the chance is correct and the distance is right and my body is agreeable to make the shot.

Beyond that punch the ribs through the lungs and chill out and go get the meat when the time to move is right.

Being capable and practiced of following the trail sure isn't a bad thing to have in the back pocket just in case... shoulder shots even run now and then... even the high ones. Sometimes the high ones are so high they don't even kill... just wound.

Equipment wise, I prefer to have a solid MOA or under shooter. But solid MOA isn't anyting to snivel at, meaning 10-20 shot group capable of MOA or under at max distance. Anything else better is welcome and gravy for sure.

I have failed to get htat on my 300/221 so far, except on supersonic loads which I won't use, and its limited my distance on shots with that gun but I keep working... Wondering often if I should replace the factory barrel and see any improvement... there is still time for that though.

I hunted for years with a smoothbore slug gun that wouldn't do better than 6 MOA and killed multiple deer with it every season. Still hunt with an iron sighted .50 cal. T/C Hawken and patched round balls during muzzleloader season and kill deer with that every season too. Accuracy and long range capability just ain't that critical to my success.

I would pick woodsmanship and game finding ability. Such a guy, armed with a rusty old 4 MOA .30-30 will bring home more meat than the Elmer Fudd armed with a 1/2 MOA Whizbang.

If you can't find the game, both before and after the shot(s), it doesn't matter what you carry.

My deer rifles run from an iron-sighted savage 99 30/30 that I can barely squeeze 3 MOA out of, to Remington and Kimber scoped bolt actions that can go sub 1 MOA with right ammo. Been hunting whitetails for 40 yrs and never missed because of the rifle/sights.

I don't even hunt with the most accurate loads out of my .308 Kimber Montana. It likes 150 gr stuff the best, but I prefer to hunt with 165 gr. So I give up .75 MOA for about 1.5 MOA. The deer haven't noticed, but I get better blood trails.

Most of my hunting is in the western adirondacks that has been periodically logged from the 1800s right up to today, so everything from 100 yr old plus mature forest to fresh cut areas, with every stage of brushy re-growth in between. No 500 yd shots! Not very many 100 yd shots.

I do miss reliable hunting season snow. Used to be a whole lot easier to see and track deer when you had a little fresh snow every now and then. But a good blood trail on dry leaves will work.

I agree with those who say hunting skills are more important than the rifle geek stuff.

But hunting is not all that difficult either. Most important characteristic of a good hunter is persistence..

BobinNH made an observation I agree with. Outlaw tree stands and put everyone afoot. Sort out the woodsmen from the trail watchers. But I digress.

I don't think we have to choose one of the above. Obviously the thread is geared to woodsmanship being the right answer. Overall I have to agree. Consistently taking game dictates it. On the other hand. In this day and age there is no reason not to be afield with less than a .5 MOA rig. It's just too easy to do now.

Not every crotchety old grey whiskered curmudgeon in camp with the 30/30, is an expert woodsman. Likewise assuming that because a man carries a finely tuned one hole rig,he can't find deer is wrong.

Put me down for both. A freezer full of venison and a rifle I can brag about.

I'm with otter on this one. It really has to be both. Knowing when and how to shoot can be as important as finding the animal. Personally, I don't waste a lot of time on equipment. As stated, a 1 inch rifle will kill every animal in the places I hunt and dots, turrents, rangefinders, are gack. Still, sliding a bullet through holes in the brush means the difference between dragging or not. Being good at what you do and with what you have isn't a bad thing.

If you want to "dance on the head of a pin" over equipment that is your choice. I want to shoot and scout.

I try to work up loads for every rifle I load that are as accurate as possible, sub inch is always the goal. I cannot hold dead still like from a bench. I figure The smaller my groups, the bigger my wobbles can be.

I learned when I started bow hunting long ago that figuring out which tree to use to get off the ground was the biggest part of getting a deer. After that, preparing yourself to have the ability to stay there until Bambi decided to commit suicide and then the discipline to make it the shot.

Where I hunt, "woodsmanship", hunting them on the ground, can be done, but for every success, you probably move 100 deer you never knew about. Deer here are very prone to just get up if you start to get too close, move away a little, let you pass by and then lay down again. The one you think you "hunted up" is more likely dumb luck or bumped into you by someone/something else.

I don't mind following a DNA trail, it's part of the thrill. My favorite part is slipping around when the leaves are wet, with a bow, smoke pole or rifle. I hunt more days with an arrow than I do bullets. There are a few spots where the deer travel to and from thick cover, the wind swirls and is constantly in the wrong direction, so I'll use a climber stand and get in the nose bleed.

people that claim they get a bang flop every time with one bullet and caliber are well,liars. anyone that hunts a while has had bang flops but they can't do it every time.

Spot on battue--- been reading for years about people who can't hunt with one that is not less than 1"--- Better hope they don't outlaw scopes. How did the old timers ever kill anything ?

It's much harder to find a big whitetail buck than put a hole through his vitals....

Some response observation:

First, the post was not geared for a woodsmanship response. I've seen changes is how we Deer hunt here. Which in my area has been in response to a couple reasons. One would be because of food availability. It was actually a migration to our southern counties better farms and woodlots. The historic northern counties were at one time overpopulated and the Deer slowly over time-took about 40 years for them to get there in numbers-moved south to the better farms and smaller woodlots.

With these smaller habitats compared to the big woods, hunters who chose to hunt those parts of the southern counties obviously no longer had the opportunity to roam as much as those of previous generations. However, there are also fairly big wood areas there also. Then the outdoor shows came about and stand hunting became what many today learned as how it should be done. You can't deny the influence those shows have had.

As far as the foot hunter moving Deer they don't see? Well of course that is a given. Hell I've watched videos where the Benoits moved them out. You think we won't? It goes with the game, and yes they often get up and move a little. The good still-hunter either sees them move off or reads the sign they recently did so and adjusts. Just because they have moved off a little doesn't mean they have escaped. Admittedly however, most give up on those Deer at that time. I've found that is often a good time to take a stand and wait and hour or so, for you will often catch them milling around or moving back to where they were bounced. Not a givin, but sometimes it works. Or one can quick foot it, move to the front and catch them. It's a guessing game and sometimes you get it right.

Shooting thru holes is a favorite of mine. What size holes and how far away holes? Baseball sized holes, I'm calling luck if you pull it off. Basketball sized holes? Really no big test of skill and an inch rifle from field positions will do it just as easily as the .5er. Most "holes" in the big woods are vertical and not round.

I didn't imply the man with the accurate rifle couldn't do both. I do know some who observe what is going on around them more so than others. One in particular often hunts with with a custom shop Remington that is extremely accurate. He is far from the best shot and his Father sights it in for him and he takes a few shots with it and goes hunting. You don't want to bet against him when it comes to killing big Bucks. He does it consistently. While his Dad is practicing his shooting, he is scouting out Bucks. He also sees and hears things most will not clue in on and he also kills them with a 1.5inch or so rifle.

Thing I have noticed about the tree stands is for the most part here in Pa you are most likely to find them within a couple hundred yards of where the truck is parked. Get back in past a half mile or more and it is rare to come across one. Now if the hunters push the Deer back in, why wouldn't the stands follow? Well the reason is it's a PITA. Not only to lug the stand in but lug it and a Deer out for a long distance, and the vast majority hope the easy way will win the race.

So far probably the best response:



I'll hunt them both ways situation, time and health dictating. However, you get on your feet woods roaming in your blood and you will know there is a difference. You will bang flop some and some you will find piled up after the run. It's all good.

Also, you don't need only wet ground to still-hunt. Makes it easier, but it's far from necessary.

Absolutely true.

But that does not help to explain how many come completely unhinged at the sight of a big buck,and completely blow it.

Admitting that this is a deer forum, I know a person who missed a 1000 pound 60 inch bull moose at 40 yards with an 06. Not once but 3 times His son killed it with single shot from a 270. Guy is a great hunter and found the bull. Almost didn't mean much.