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would you rather be????

The bang flop thread got me wondering. Seems as if many on here are overly concerned about what they and their rifles can do. Gotta be a .75 at minimum to brag on. A one inch rifle is nothing to consider keeping to some. Forget the fact that most of the .75s do so with cherry-picked groups, but that is for another day. Bang flops have become the current fad.

Only a little conversation goes on re how to be a better than an average hunter. I guess that is pretty boring in that you can't brag on targets, but anyway who would rather have superior game finding skills over shooting skill. Believe me when I say there are undividuals out there who see things the rest of us miss. And they do so consistently. They may not be able to outshoot others, but they punch tags, often when better shooters can't find anything to shoot.

I'll take superior game finding ability and be content with getting by shooting skills every day of the season.

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Bang flop is an objective analogous to jousting with windmills. Tin foil bullets are not the answer IMHO.

A one inch rifle is good for elk and deer clear to 600 yards, if the shooter knows what he is doing with it.

You can't "teach" people to hunt except in a very general way. Some are observant, attentive, intuitive when afield and others couldn't find an elephant in a phone booth.

It does seem that many are intimidated about hunting deer while on the ground today. If you took away the tree stand I swear many would not know what to do. smile




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In the last 11 seasons of hunting here, since moving to Canada, we have managed to take a buck each every year & in some years an additional Doe or 2.

We do this with a couple "modest" centerfire rifle/scope combos. They/we produce honest 1.25 MOA groups.

For me, woodsmanship & knowledge trump all.

I'm also not really interested in group shooting, other than to verify consistency.

What I work very hard on, is knowing exactly where my cold bore shot is going to impact !

My .02, YMMV



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Originally Posted by New_2_99s

For me, woodsmanship & knowledge trump all.


Yep.

Although I'll confess to being rather persnickety in how my equipment performs, I know I could do the same with a whole lot less.

As well, I've never once been geeked up about a "bang-flop" or "DRT'". If I dump them, I dump them - if not, I'll follow a blood trail.


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Originally Posted by SKane
Originally Posted by New_2_99s

For me, woodsmanship & knowledge trump all.


Yep.

Although I'll confess to being rather persnickety in how my equipment performs, I know I could do the same with a whole lot less.

As well, I've never once been geeked up about a "bang-flop" or "DRT'". If I dump them, I dump them - if not, I'll follow a blood trail.


Amen to that.


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I shoot to stay off the shoulders and ruin as little meat as possible.

I tend to use mono bullets though I run bergers at times.

Mostly they run. No big deal to get down and go find em. Dog loves his work anyway, though he has more fun with others don't quite kill em right off. But I prefer they don't suffer personally.

The only way to get a guaranteed DRT is CNS shot, so if I desire that and a nice animal to gut with the least mess, I simply head shoot them if the chance is correct and the distance is right and my body is agreeable to make the shot.

Beyond that punch the ribs through the lungs and chill out and go get the meat when the time to move is right.

Being capable and practiced of following the trail sure isn't a bad thing to have in the back pocket just in case... shoulder shots even run now and then... even the high ones. Sometimes the high ones are so high they don't even kill... just wound.

Equipment wise, I prefer to have a solid MOA or under shooter. But solid MOA isn't anyting to snivel at, meaning 10-20 shot group capable of MOA or under at max distance. Anything else better is welcome and gravy for sure.

I have failed to get htat on my 300/221 so far, except on supersonic loads which I won't use, and its limited my distance on shots with that gun but I keep working... Wondering often if I should replace the factory barrel and see any improvement... there is still time for that though.


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I hunted for years with a smoothbore slug gun that wouldn't do better than 6 MOA and killed multiple deer with it every season. Still hunt with an iron sighted .50 cal. T/C Hawken and patched round balls during muzzleloader season and kill deer with that every season too. Accuracy and long range capability just ain't that critical to my success.

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I would pick woodsmanship and game finding ability. Such a guy, armed with a rusty old 4 MOA .30-30 will bring home more meat than the Elmer Fudd armed with a 1/2 MOA Whizbang.


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If you can't find the game, both before and after the shot(s), it doesn't matter what you carry.

My deer rifles run from an iron-sighted savage 99 30/30 that I can barely squeeze 3 MOA out of, to Remington and Kimber scoped bolt actions that can go sub 1 MOA with right ammo. Been hunting whitetails for 40 yrs and never missed because of the rifle/sights.

I don't even hunt with the most accurate loads out of my .308 Kimber Montana. It likes 150 gr stuff the best, but I prefer to hunt with 165 gr. So I give up .75 MOA for about 1.5 MOA. The deer haven't noticed, but I get better blood trails.

Most of my hunting is in the western adirondacks that has been periodically logged from the 1800s right up to today, so everything from 100 yr old plus mature forest to fresh cut areas, with every stage of brushy re-growth in between. No 500 yd shots! Not very many 100 yd shots.

I do miss reliable hunting season snow. Used to be a whole lot easier to see and track deer when you had a little fresh snow every now and then. But a good blood trail on dry leaves will work.




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I agree with those who say hunting skills are more important than the rifle geek stuff.

But hunting is not all that difficult either. Most important characteristic of a good hunter is persistence..




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The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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BobinNH made an observation I agree with. Outlaw tree stands and put everyone afoot. Sort out the woodsmen from the trail watchers. But I digress.

I don't think we have to choose one of the above. Obviously the thread is geared to woodsmanship being the right answer. Overall I have to agree. Consistently taking game dictates it. On the other hand. In this day and age there is no reason not to be afield with less than a .5 MOA rig. It's just too easy to do now.

Not every crotchety old grey whiskered curmudgeon in camp with the 30/30, is an expert woodsman. Likewise assuming that because a man carries a finely tuned one hole rig,he can't find deer is wrong.

Put me down for both. A freezer full of venison and a rifle I can brag about.


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I'm with otter on this one. It really has to be both. Knowing when and how to shoot can be as important as finding the animal. Personally, I don't waste a lot of time on equipment. As stated, a 1 inch rifle will kill every animal in the places I hunt and dots, turrents, rangefinders, are gack. Still, sliding a bullet through holes in the brush means the difference between dragging or not. Being good at what you do and with what you have isn't a bad thing.

If you want to "dance on the head of a pin" over equipment that is your choice. I want to shoot and scout.


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I try to work up loads for every rifle I load that are as accurate as possible, sub inch is always the goal. I cannot hold dead still like from a bench. I figure The smaller my groups, the bigger my wobbles can be.

I learned when I started bow hunting long ago that figuring out which tree to use to get off the ground was the biggest part of getting a deer. After that, preparing yourself to have the ability to stay there until Bambi decided to commit suicide and then the discipline to make it the shot.

Where I hunt, "woodsmanship", hunting them on the ground, can be done, but for every success, you probably move 100 deer you never knew about. Deer here are very prone to just get up if you start to get too close, move away a little, let you pass by and then lay down again. The one you think you "hunted up" is more likely dumb luck or bumped into you by someone/something else.

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I don't mind following a DNA trail, it's part of the thrill. My favorite part is slipping around when the leaves are wet, with a bow, smoke pole or rifle. I hunt more days with an arrow than I do bullets. There are a few spots where the deer travel to and from thick cover, the wind swirls and is constantly in the wrong direction, so I'll use a climber stand and get in the nose bleed.



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people that claim they get a bang flop every time with one bullet and caliber are well,liars. anyone that hunts a while has had bang flops but they can't do it every time.

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Spot on battue--- been reading for years about people who can't hunt with one that is not less than 1"--- Better hope they don't outlaw scopes. How did the old timers ever kill anything ?


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It's much harder to find a big whitetail buck than put a hole through his vitals....


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Some response observation:

First, the post was not geared for a woodsmanship response. I've seen changes is how we Deer hunt here. Which in my area has been in response to a couple reasons. One would be because of food availability. It was actually a migration to our southern counties better farms and woodlots. The historic northern counties were at one time overpopulated and the Deer slowly over time-took about 40 years for them to get there in numbers-moved south to the better farms and smaller woodlots.

With these smaller habitats compared to the big woods, hunters who chose to hunt those parts of the southern counties obviously no longer had the opportunity to roam as much as those of previous generations. However, there are also fairly big wood areas there also. Then the outdoor shows came about and stand hunting became what many today learned as how it should be done. You can't deny the influence those shows have had.

As far as the foot hunter moving Deer they don't see? Well of course that is a given. Hell I've watched videos where the Benoits moved them out. You think we won't? grin It goes with the game, and yes they often get up and move a little. The good still-hunter either sees them move off or reads the sign they recently did so and adjusts. Just because they have moved off a little doesn't mean they have escaped. Admittedly however, most give up on those Deer at that time. I've found that is often a good time to take a stand and wait and hour or so, for you will often catch them milling around or moving back to where they were bounced. Not a givin, but sometimes it works. Or one can quick foot it, move to the front and catch them. It's a guessing game and sometimes you get it right.

Shooting thru holes is a favorite of mine. What size holes and how far away holes? Baseball sized holes, I'm calling luck if you pull it off. Basketball sized holes? Really no big test of skill and an inch rifle from field positions will do it just as easily as the .5er. Most "holes" in the big woods are vertical and not round.

I didn't imply the man with the accurate rifle couldn't do both. I do know some who observe what is going on around them more so than others. One in particular often hunts with with a custom shop Remington that is extremely accurate. He is far from the best shot and his Father sights it in for him and he takes a few shots with it and goes hunting. You don't want to bet against him when it comes to killing big Bucks. He does it consistently. While his Dad is practicing his shooting, he is scouting out Bucks. He also sees and hears things most will not clue in on and he also kills them with a 1.5inch or so rifle.

Thing I have noticed about the tree stands is for the most part here in Pa you are most likely to find them within a couple hundred yards of where the truck is parked. Get back in past a half mile or more and it is rare to come across one. Now if the hunters push the Deer back in, why wouldn't the stands follow? Well the reason is it's a PITA. Not only to lug the stand in but lug it and a Deer out for a long distance, and the vast majority hope the easy way will win the race.

So far probably the best response:

Originally Posted by Poconojack
It's much harder to find a big whitetail buck than put a hole through his vitals....


I'll hunt them both ways situation, time and health dictating. However, you get on your feet woods roaming in your blood and you will know there is a difference. You will bang flop some and some you will find piled up after the run. It's all good.

Also, you don't need only wet ground to still-hunt. Makes it easier, but it's far from necessary.



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Originally Posted by Poconojack
It's much harder to find a big whitetail buck than put a hole through his vitals....


Absolutely true.

But that does not help to explain how many come completely unhinged at the sight of a big buck,and completely blow it. smile

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Admitting that this is a deer forum, I know a person who missed a 1000 pound 60 inch bull moose at 40 yards with an 06. Not once but 3 times His son killed it with single shot from a 270. Guy is a great hunter and found the bull. Almost didn't mean much.


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Originally Posted by JDK
Admitting that this is a deer forum, I know a person who missed a 1000 pound 60 inch bull moose at 40 yards with an 06. Not once but 3 times His son killed it with single shot from a 270. Guy is a great hunter and found the bull. Almost didn't mean much.


That person's rifle should be taken and he should be retired to camp cook. Almost doesn't seem possible, given proximity/size. Maybe he hit timber?


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Originally Posted by 2muchgun
Originally Posted by JDK
Admitting that this is a deer forum, I know a person who missed a 1000 pound 60 inch bull moose at 40 yards with an 06. Not once but 3 times His son killed it with single shot from a 270. Guy is a great hunter and found the bull. Almost didn't mean much.


That person's rifle should be taken and he should be retired to camp cook. Almost doesn't seem possible, given proximity/size. Maybe he hit timber?



Nope, he called it to the edge of a bog. 40 yards wide open. He came unglued. That was with a very accurate bolt action 06 also. Big target to miss but his hunting buddies are kind and never rub it in. laugh His son...well.....

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Originally Posted by 2muchgun
Originally Posted by JDK
Admitting that this is a deer forum, I know a person who missed a 1000 pound 60 inch bull moose at 40 yards with an 06. Not once but 3 times His son killed it with single shot from a 270. Guy is a great hunter and found the bull. Almost didn't mean much.


That person's rifle should be taken and he should be retired to camp cook. Almost doesn't seem possible, given proximity/size. Maybe he hit timber?



I'm in the opposite camp, I would want him to be the first person to have a crack at one. Redemption is a sweet gift and I bet he would give a lot to have another chance.

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Originally Posted by mitchellmountain


I'm in the opposite camp, I would want him to be the first person to have a crack at one. Redemption is a sweet gift and I bet he would give a lot to have another chance.

MM


Does one need to learn how to win, or does one need to win to learn how to win? Or does one need to fail to learn how to win or win to learn how not to fail?

Failure is an excellent instructor. Most learn how by failing first. See it in other sports all the time. Hope he has another opportunity.

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BobinNH made an observation I agree with. Outlaw tree stands and put everyone afoot. Sort out the woodsmen from the trail watchers. But I digress.


While we're at it we could outlaw conservatives and have everyone vote for Democrats.


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Originally Posted by gnoahhh
I would pick woodsmanship and game finding ability. Such a guy, armed with a rusty old 4 MOA .30-30 will bring home more meat than the Elmer Fudd armed with a 1/2 MOA Whizbang.


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I like my rifle to be as accurate as it can be, but walking up on a buck stirs me much more than working up a load that cloverleafs. Still hunting is my favorite, and if you have to make a "move" on a deer to get that shot... even if it's only 5 or 10 more steps that's even better. Poking holes indeed.

Placing your foot just right, lump in your throat kinda stuff. I'll take the ability to make that happen more often any day. Yep.

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Originally Posted by Ringman
Quote
BobinNH made an observation I agree with. Outlaw tree stands and put everyone afoot. Sort out the woodsmen from the trail watchers. But I digress.


While we're at it we could outlaw conservatives and have everyone vote for Democrats.


I didn't suggest outlawing tree stands. What I recall saying is that a lot of people wouldn't know how to hunt a deer if forced to do so on the ground. Or at least have no idea how to go about it.

I still believe that, having met quite a few.

A lot of people have learned to hunt from trees,but not from their feet, on the ground.





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I'm different from many on this site as I get little satisfaction from shooting and experimenting with shooting equipment. Those are tools and I tend to pick something that works for me and move on. I get a far greater thrill from being in the woods, and seeing animals, be it in April when they break out of the yards or in November with a cross hair on his chest. Maybe if I lived in an area with higher numbers or I could shoot longer distances I'd feel different but I just plain love being in the woods and poking around. The days when there is 6 inches of snow on the ground and a light dusting is falling and you suddenly see a leg, nose, or out of place patch. Knowing that you beat him on his terms is pretty damned special because it doesn't happen all that often..


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Originally Posted by JDK
I'm different from many on this site as I get little satisfaction from shooting and experimenting with shooting equipment. Those are tools and I tend to pick something that works for me and move on. I get a far greater thrill from being in the woods, and seeing animals, be it in April when they break out of the yards or in November with a cross hair on his chest. Maybe if I lived in an area with higher numbers or I could shoot longer distances I'd feel different but I just plain love being in the woods and poking around. The days when there is 6 inches of snow on the ground and a light dusting is falling and you suddenly see a leg, nose, or out of place patch. Knowing that you beat him on his terms is pretty damned special because it doesn't happen all that often..





Well said and I'm not sure many realize how successful you can be just by poking around more than a little in the right places. Even doing so there are times to stick it out in one spot for a bit. For some, it beats sitting up in a perch for hours on end looking at the same piece of ground.


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When I say thank god I don't live where I have to hunt out of stands, over plots, and being told what to shoot, it isn't a slight to those that do. To complete my education, I'd love to try that someday but being able to wander is what I like to do. None is easy and it is all good.

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Have sat in ground blinds a few times with the Dog waiting for something to show up and it has been productive and fun.

Abby was the best. She could be sleeping, but when she picked her head up and stared at a particular area it was wise to take a line off her nose, for something was passing by or coming.

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I'll still take the accurate gun.

And I typically hunt the smartest way there is to hunt, just makes sense to me mostly.

But I've gone through periods where I demanded to hunt only a specific way, or a specific weapon or such. They were also satisfying at the time. In the end, we ended up with meat, so the outcome always seemed to be the same.

As I age, time is more important, to many things going on, so I tend to take the easy way out around the house quite often.

But I'm hoping in a few years to semi retire and try to slow it all down work wise so we can spend more time out there..

Wife just bought a fly rod... I thought I'd never see that after she had a frustrating day in TN many years ago....there is always hope.


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Originally Posted by Blackheart
I hunted for years with a smoothbore slug gun that wouldn't do better than 6 MOA and killed multiple deer with it every season. Still hunt with an iron sighted .50 cal. T/C Hawken and patched round balls during muzzleloader season and kill deer with that every season too. Accuracy and long range capability just ain't that critical to my success.
My thoughts too. Of all the deer I've shot, I think one was much over 100 yards away. I hunt in the woods, not out in the open where longer shots are the norm.


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Almost everyone has had buck fever at some point. I had hell getting my first deer with a bow. I would be so excited, because deer were so close. With a bow you have to hold the pin on the target until arrow hits the target. I'm sure lots of guys jerk the trigger, because they are scared of recoil. I do best when I talk myself through the shot. I missed a giant bobcat two years ago cause I was excited. Hit right under him. It wouldn't be safe to wander around to hunt on the two leases I have. You can during the week. No way on the weekends.

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I'm deathly afraid of heights. The couple of times I climbed into a tree stand I sat in a dizzying fog of terror, so I now keep my feet firmly planted on terra firma. On the same side of the coin, after 2-3 hours of staring at the same trees I find myself going batshit. At that point I get up and move, if even just a hundred yards to change my viewpoint, and it may take me twenty minutes to move that hundred yards. Or, I may get a wild hair and need to see if something is bedded down over the next hill and set off on a still hunting adventure. Being afraid of heights has an unintended consequence: it forces me into a mixed approach of standing and still hunting, and keeps me sane.

Of course, it all depends on my mood, weather, and whether or not the pretty barmaid I chatted up the night before is working the lunch shift. grin

Those who I really pity are those who build elaborate stands/huts and hold themselves captive in them every day of the season, staring at the same trees year after year. The deer they get are simply killed, not hunted. Not that I blame them if they do so on a tiny plot they own, and that is the only way to hunt the property short of marching around and around as if on guard duty. Rather, it's the guy who does so when there's 3000 acres of accessible land at their back, full of new things to see and deer waiting to give them a run for their money.


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Have a rung let loose at 20 feet when you are climbing down isn't something you want to repeat.

Now as far as walking around vs sitting around, a nice stand does have its positives. Especially when you have good company and they are acting as an extra set of eyes. However, in this case, it was Squirrels, and there were more than a few. Some were even trying to get inside. Scratch, scratch, scratch. Then when he could see them on the other side of the window was really funny. A lot of whining was going on, but the Deer still showed up. Maybe it was curious in WTH was going on.

[Linked Image]


Then there used to be this one. On 1200 acres that eventually was sold and became posted. Chilly sit on a late winter evening. But the number of Deer that have been killed out of it? Well if it could tell stories it would take awhile.

[Linked Image]



And some of the people who have stands spend a lot of time, money and effort to make them productive.


Finding one while roaming around in here is always nice as long as the knees and back are holding up. That's a hot corner in this pic.

[Linked Image]


It's all good.







Last edited by battue; 08/22/16.

laissez les bons temps rouler
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,985
G
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,985
Yep, all good.


"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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