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Interesting article
http://www.buildingshooters.com/Blog-Post-008-08-14-2016.html

"...You can realistically expect to teach most students any of these gripping techniques and, if you teach the technique right, produce a superb shooter, capable of performing to virtually any operational level required for self-defense (competition may be somewhat different because of the incredible levels of technical skill performance required). However, if you try to teach all three techniques, and leave the technique selection up to the individual, the actual act of teaching and trying multiple techniques that occupy the same neural space in short-term memory actually prohibits the student from being able to effectively learn any of the individual techniques—and corrupts the data file in the student's brain that corresponds to gripping a handgun."



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Put another way, teaching multiple techniques, letting the student try them, and then allowing them to pick one on their own actually causes what is, in effect, permanent, performance limiting, neurological damage to the student.


O-Tay... enough right there.


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Originally Posted by SargeMO
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Put another way, teaching multiple techniques, letting the student try them, and then allowing them to pick one on their own actually causes what is, in effect, permanent, performance limiting, neurological damage to the student.


O-Tay... enough right there.


Amen brother.


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Between Youtube videos of idiots who are also 'head instructors' at their various 'schools', assorted self proclaimed experts, and the lack of any meaningful standards of certification (as pointed out in Blue's post), I can't say as I would ever spend my hard earned cash on any 'school/course' supposedly making me a better shooter.

Seems like the Schit/shinola ratio is awfully high in the world of shooting instruction....


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Here is what escapes most "instructors"....


"In conclusion, instructors should work to become versed in the intricacies of more than a single method of skill performance, not for the purposes of teaching multiple methods to individual students, but for the purposes of improving the skillset of a student who may use a different technique than the instructor's chosen, primary method.

Instructors should also take the time to learn the requirements, and limitations, (for example, injuries that preclude performance of some physical skills) of individual students in order to be able to provide them with the optimal instruction to meet their individual needs."

Most of the instructors I know and have seen teach teach ONLY their way of shooting not recognizing that it isn't the best way for their student.... LE academies are famous for this...

Bob


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Originally Posted by MojoHand
Between Youtube videos of idiots who are also 'head instructors' at their various 'schools', assorted self proclaimed experts, and the lack of any meaningful standards of certification (as pointed out in Blue's post), I can't say as I would ever spend my hard earned cash on any 'school/course' supposedly making me a better shooter.


Some women are whores that'll give you crotch critters, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't spend a little money on a good one that treats you right.

I won't say that most people have no idea just how awful they are at handgunning, because that would be mean. But I will say that most people have no idea how good they could be with just a little bit of help.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by gmoats
Interesting article
http://www.buildingshooters.com/Blog-Post-008-08-14-2016.html

"...You can realistically expect to teach most students any of these gripping techniques and, if you teach the technique right, produce a superb shooter, capable of performing to virtually any operational level required for self-defense (competition may be somewhat different because of the incredible levels of technical skill performance required). However, if you try to teach all three techniques, and leave the technique selection up to the individual, the actual act of teaching and trying multiple techniques that occupy the same neural space in short-term memory actually prohibits the student from being able to effectively learn any of the individual techniques—and corrupts the data file in the student's brain that corresponds to gripping a handgun."



I understand what he's trying to say and have heard the neural pathway arguments before, but they really seem to fly in the face of what actually happens with people.

If those "data files" are so hard to erase then how are top shooters, who have hundreds of thousands of data files on a particular skill, ever able to change what they're doing to improve?

I dunno. I'm just a scrub trying to figure it all out myself.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Originally Posted by MojoHand
Between Youtube videos of idiots who are also 'head instructors' at their various 'schools', assorted self proclaimed experts, and the lack of any meaningful standards of certification (as pointed out in Blue's post), I can't say as I would ever spend my hard earned cash on any 'school/course' supposedly making me a better shooter.

Seems like the Schit/shinola ratio is awfully high in the world of shooting instruction....




The ratio IS awfully high in the shooting/tactics world. That only means you need to weed out a bit before you go. I can give a small dissertation on how to filter trainers.... Or I could just make it easy and say that if you want to learn how to shoot better go to people who are USPSA Grandmasters with a solid teaching background. If you want to learn "tactics" go to someone who is or was a high level special operations member and who also holds a USPSA GM card..... That narrows the list real fast, not to say that there aren't other good instructors, but it does all but insure that the person teaching understands what he is saying and has done it at the highest level.







Originally Posted by RJM
Here is what escapes most "instructors"....


Most of the instructors I know and have seen teach teach ONLY their way of shooting not recognizing that it isn't the best way for their student.... LE academies are famous for this...

Bob



I wouldn't go or send someone to a low level or mid level quality course as it costs virtually the same to go to "Joe blow the SWAT guy" as it does to go to a Ron Avery/Frank Proctor/Pat Mac/Kyle Lamb/Kyle D./Yousef M/etc course. Despite popular opinion- there is in fact one (1) BEST way for someone to do a particular task based apon they're situation. For instance- baring extreme physical injury, they best way (that is to say the way to achieve the highest skill level before plateau) to hold a semi auto handgun for rapid accurate shooting is the thumbs forward, modified isosceles. That isn't even debatable any more.

Fully 100% of top shooters in both the action pistol match world and the highest military shooters shoot that way. Given that, why would or should someone even introduce another way to do it to beginner or intermediate level shooters?






Originally Posted by Bluedreaux


I won't say that most people have no idea just how awful they are at handgunning, because that would be mean. .



I will- they're flipping atrocious. Incompetent is an understatement.






Originally Posted by Bluedreaux

I understand what he's trying to say and have heard the neural pathway arguments before, but they really seem to fly in the face of what actually happens with people.

If those "data files" are so hard to erase then how are top shooters, who have hundreds of thousands of data files on a particular skill, ever able to change what they're doing to improve?

I dunno. I'm just a scrub trying to figure it all out myself.




Not so much a scrub, you are.....


Top level shooters (or anyone at the "top" in any disipline) are quite different than low to mid level shooters in what they can process and retain. What he is saying is absolutely correct unless you are teaching high level shooters (mid B class or above) generally.

We know from tens of thousands of competition shooters, hundreds of high level military shooters with thousand's and thousands of shootings what it takes to consistently hit a target quickly. With that, barring some extreme instances, there is absolutely NO reason to introduce multiple "ways" to do something.

We know the best/fastest way to-

1) grip a handgun
2) draw
3) use the sights
4) drop a mag
5) manipulate the slide release
6) control recoil
7) transition target to target




Similarly we know how to do the same with a carbine and I can tell you that when we stopped teaching "use what works for you", and started teaching a single "best" way to do most tasks, performance went through roof.



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We know the best/fastest way to-

1) grip a handgun
2) draw
3) use the sights
4) drop a mag
5) manipulate the slide release
6) control recoil
7) transition target to target


We were at a get together one time and My friend that is a very good pistol shot and teacher, was going to instruct a young Lady the next day about proper pistol shooting. I told Him that I wanted to watch. He told me that I would be included in the teaching. I then told Him that I just wanted to watch, because I did not want My way of doing it to confuse the young Lady. He looked at me funny, so I then told Him that my screwed up shoulders would not let me do it the way that He was going to teach the young lady, but I could watch, and then try to mimic it the best that I could. It worked somewhat, and I did not confuse the young Lady. So what works for some, might not even be possible for others. miles


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Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
If those "data files" are so hard to erase then how are top shooters, who have hundreds of thousands of data files on a particular skill, ever able to change what they're doing to improve?
Agreed.

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That's why he said "barring significant injury".

Just because it doesn't work for one person doesn't mean that it's not the best way to do something.


Originally Posted by SBTCO
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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There is a inherent "flaw" in the "what works best for you" with newer shooters; especially when they get to the point to where they're heading to a shooting school. I sense that's the point the author is trying to make. A new shooter can do what he/she thinks is working for them, and as it turns out, is completely wrong. You actually see this in most every sport. They gravitate to what feels natural to them, only to find out that supposed natural feeling is what's holding them back.

For someone who has been to more than one school, has shot competitively, and is an experienced shooter, they have been exposed to enough to know what works best for them. And an instructor ought to be able to work with that.

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Nonsense. Just buy my training videos.

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Most important is the ability to focus on the task at hand, have an impartial interest in learning, not just from that one instructor or discipline.

Trying to get better at competition shooting has helped me golf better, etc.


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Bad habits, are bad.




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Stupid article. The right response for non-law enforcement is to get the hell outta the building yesterday and to make damned sure that responding cops know you ain't the bad guy lest you wind up room temperature.

Do civilian training courses really teach pursuing bad guys and clearing buildings?

These two have a shtick that they're hustling to soldiers of fortune.

Law enforcement agencies have their methods of clearing buildings. Don't be around when they do. It might not work out for you if they're responding to an active shooter call.

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Originally Posted by SakoAV
Stupid article. The right response for non-law enforcement is to get the hell outta the building yesterday and to make damned sure that responding cops know you ain't the bad guy lest you wind up room temperature.

Do civilian training courses really teach pursuing bad guys and clearing buildings?

These two have a shtick that they're hustling to soldiers of fortune.

Law enforcement agencies have their methods of clearing buildings. Don't be around when they do. It might not work out for you if they're responding to an active shooter call.
Building clearing is something that ought to be taught, and something you should at least be competent with if you have kids and/or a large house.

To say you'll NEVER be in a position where you'll never need "building clearing skills" just shows no imagination whatsoever, and it's a plan to fail.

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one thing i do know about clearing buildings particularly at night is i do not want to clear buildings at night, or any other time for that matter. Odds are against you.


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I've done some of that. Not hard to get your ass killed with ample training and equipment.

If anything you might need to eliminate an armed intruder in your own domicile before they get to loved ones in another part of the house. You have an advantage in that you know your surroundings. You have a disadvantage because you will probably play by 'the rules'. Your opponent, if he is a dead-ender, will use this to murder you.


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Originally Posted by SakoAV
Stupid article. The right response for non-law enforcement is to
get the hell outta the building yesterday and to make damned sure that responding cops know you ain't the bad guy lest you wind up room temperature.

Do civilian training courses really teach pursuing bad guys and clearing buildings?

These two have a shtick that they're hustling to soldiers of fortune.

Law enforcement agencies have their methods of clearing buildings. Don't be around when they do. It might not work out for you if they're responding to an active shooter call.


….what in the heck are you relating the above to????? The "Stupid article" says nothing about clearing buildings nor confronting responding police officers? Did you enter this on the wrong thread? It has to do with teaching primarily gripping the handgun….unless I'm the one with attention deficit…..of course, that's a real possibility.

The finest instructor that I personally know is one of Clint Smith's adjunct teachers---he ran a Police Academy for multiple municipalities in a suburban county of Kansas City. I've been fortunate to help him instruct numerous courses over the past years and first started shooting with him when I got out of the Marine Corps almost 40 years ago. He once made the comment that you NEVER want to give a student "options" when teaching them critical or immediate action response drills. When a person has "options," it's like a drop-down menu on a computer that requires contemplation of several choices and then an added decision…..that takes time that is not available in a critical situation. The "stupid article" kind of addresses that point:

"This is especially important for "critical" skills—skills that will be operationally performed under stress—and that therefore must be performed from procedural memory. (The brain cannot access the other memory systems reliably when the sympathetic nervous system is in play)."

I'm not sure that I totally agree with the content of the article, but the concept of how memory processes info is interesting---especially now that my rate of forgetting seems to have exceeded my rate of learning!!


The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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