Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor Brass SMALL RIFLE PRIMER?

John,
I was surprised to read that the following on the Accurate Shooter Forum:



I'm more than a little surprised that Lapua(or the American Contingent at least) wants to, in essence, reengineer this cartridge with a Small Rifle Primer. Frankly it amazes me they would even consider it. Especially given Lapua brass is almost a lock to be the hardest and strongest case of anything on the market. Difficult reading pressure from case head marks especially given relative hardness rates. Rifles chambered and designed around the current Large Rifle Primer 6.5 Creedmoor would likely require bushing the firing pin hole and a supported .0625" BR diameter firing pin... It would also seem to be an open invitation for some "hand loaders" to push the pressure potential on already reasonably stiff maximum pressures of 62,000 psi SAAMI and essentially the same thing CIP at 62,150 into dangerous territory. Greg Tannel at Gre-Tan mentions avoiding the tendency to push one of his bushed firing pin holes and properly supported firing pins past reasonable pressures. Mentioning how easy it is with this modification, for Small Rifle Primers, to lead to 65,-70,000 PSI and failure without the classic pressure signs.

At the same time I cannot help but think of Hornady's design specifically included the AR-10/SR-25 into the design parameters for this cartridge. With that in mind a small rifle primered 6.5 Creedmoor Case looks like a liability nightmare. I may be seeing dragons where none exist, however, I honestly do not see the upside of what would essentially be a bastard case amongst everything else on the market. It could so easily lead to the ASSUMPTION that components were going to perform similarly and wind up with a real problem especially on a chambering/cartridge tailored both for bolt and gas guns...

Thoughts?

Regards, Matt Garrett.
Chesapeake, Virginia.

I'm not Mule Deer, but I'll point out that Lapua has made small primer .308 cases for a while at the bequest of match shooters and it doesn't seem to bother anyone. Those cases have the potential of being used in all manner of rifles. I'd imagine their thinking is along the same lines on a small rifle creedmoor case, it's more geared toward match shooters. I don't see a problem with a modification that makes a case stronger than the original. Most know that trying to read pressure from the case head isn't reliable so I don't see the argument that the new case won't show pressure signs as compelling.

A lot of guys on this site have been loading the 6 Creed 200-300 fps beyond pressure tested 243 loads, obviously above 70,000psi.
Most have claimed great case life and I believe them, but....

Yeah, I think this is a way to eek another 100 fps for LR and match shooters and is part of an "efficiency" claim that isnt there along with substantiated accuracy/consistency.

Yep, rifle loonies always have to try SOMETHING different....

Pardon my ignorance, but why would it be necessary to bush the firing pin hole just because the cases were made for small rifle primers? Various switch-barrel guns have been working with one firing pin for years.

I also have to take issue with the notion that a manufacturer would be liable for some goober's assumption that the small primer is a license to go batschit-crazy with pressures. That's similar to saying that Cadillac, by making a 600hp motor is suggesting that its okay for someone to drive at 200mph.

Lastly, I don't know a great deal about "gas guns", but from my reading it seems they are pretty good about letting you know when you're getting too frisky with your loads.

Crap, I was just thinking I had settled on doing a 6.5 Creed chamber instead of a 6.5x47, with the reason being that Lapua is finally making brass for it, and it uses a LR primer, which I trust a little more in the deep cold that I often shoot and hunt in.

I guess I'm back to the drawing board.

Most all the tactical guys are running most of the cartridges with Lapua brass up to 70k psi already, with seemingly no ill effects.

They have to be pushing the pressures, or they could not get the high velocities that they report.

It doesn't really seem like anyone is having any problems from doing it.

Full speed ahead. I usually chuckle on the sideline. Sounds like a GRAND IDEA to me...

I'd real interested what Dave Tooley had to say...

Regards, Matt.

The 260 works great too

I'm working with 2.880" of mag latitude, which is a bit shy of doing the .260/.260AI and 140's justice...

Jordan,
You could try Prime Ammo in 6.5 creed. Manufactured by RUAG so it's Norma brass.

Prime ammo is a good deal. They sell direct, online. Excellent Norma brass and good service. They even called me on the phone a week or so after the order to see how I liked their ammo.

http://www.primeammo.com/6-5mm-creedmoor-hpbt-130gr.html,

The link shows temporarily out-of-stock but I bet they are getting more soon. They are dedicated to growing their company.

It's a non-starter for us Canucks, since they can't/won't ship outside of the US.

I was in a Quebec caribou camp with Layne Simpson several years ago and he was STILL seriously pissed about a misfire on a truly wonderful whitetail the year before.

If I remember correctly, somebody (maybe Remington or Norma) made .308 brass with a small primer pocket and he was getting stellar accuracy with the brass.

THEN, he was hunting whitetail deer one very cold morning and he experienced the worst thing possible for a handloader ... a total misfire ... CLICK!!!

And, of course, the buck ran away, never again to be seen by human eyes.

At a later date, Layne froze some ammo and experienced the same thing at the rifle range. Something about small primers, relatively large cases, freezing temps and dammit misfires.

Frankly, Layne is a very decent handloader, truly an astute hunter and I suspect he was onto something.

Because of this, I would not personally trust a small primer to ignite a 6.5 Creed in a hunting load ... period.

Just my thoughts and thoughts not requested by a living soul.

kd

Norma brass may not be as durable as Lapua but it is adequately precise. It'll be a while before you see the Lapua headstamped stuff and who knows what the primer size will be? If it's small, I'll stick w Norma. If it's large, I'll give it a go.

Guys will be going with very hot loads in the CM with small primers and Lapua brass. Same thing that is done with the 6.5x47.

The Hornady stuff seems to shoot well in my experience! I don't 'need' Lapua brass.

The Hornady brass being made (whether by them or somebody else) a year or so after the cartridge appeared in 2007 was excellent. Bought a few boxes of factory ammo with my first Creedmoor, a Hawkeye with a 26" barrel, and the ammo not only shot very well but the fired brass was VERY consistent.

Dunno if that's still true. Bought a bag early this year for my present Creedmoor, an RAR Predator, but haven't tried it yet.

If it wasn't a reportable disease process, it wouldn't have or need a name...

DF

Some people get really confused and don't know where match shooting stops and hunting begins. Why anyone would trust small primers for hunting is beyond me.

Personally I'd never trust them and couldn't be bothered. I won't be buying any Lapua brass for the 6.5 Creed.