Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Tell me again about 30-06

One of the problems I'm encountering at 58 is that things that have been settled for 20 years or more are now becoming unsettled. These are not particularly big things. At least not so far. I have not begun questioning my political affiliation. I still harbor an irrational dislike for the 270 Winchester, and my equally irrational affection for the 35 Whelen has not waned.

That brings me to my attitudes towards 30-06. You have to understand that '06 has held sway in my firmament since my earliest days in the barbershop. When I picked my first rifle, it just had to be in 30-06. All my friends were egging me on as well. For the first 15 years of my hunting career, 180 grain 30-06 was all I considered fit for whitetail.

Then I started reloading. By then, I was online, and some y'all over at shooters.com encouraged me to try 165 grain Hornadys and my first results shot so well out of my deer rifles, I never gave it a second thought. The load I'll be flinging at the deer this year is pretty much the same load that I made up back in 2000.

When my sons came online, I substituted a 150 grain Rem PSPCL, and that did just fine for them. They're both still shooting it.

My problems are as follows:

1) I had been working off the same load data for over a decade. That was because I was using the same jug of H4895.
I received a new 8 lb jug of H4895 and verified everything was still cool. It wasn't. What was a safe no-brainer is now a few grains over the published MAX. I'm not going to go pulling any bullets, because I've never seen pressure signs, but when I go to the new jug, I'll definitely knock a few grains off.

2) That got me to thinking about the decision process that led me to this pet load. I remember some of what went into it, but not all. It's been over 15 years.


Let me give you the things I know that went into the recipe and we'll go from there:

1) I had saved every round of brass I'd ever fired. When it came time to cook up my first 30-06 handload, I had oodles of RP Brass. That's what I used. That's what I'm using now.

2) CCI Large Rifle Primers were all they had at the store in 2000.

3) I originally picked IMR 4895 for a powder, because I was going to load for my M1 Garand. I switched to H4895 about 5 years later. I did not substitute 1:1; I worked back up. I stuck with this powder, because I got good accuracy with moderate recoil. I was also cooking up Yute loads in those days for my 2 sons.


Bullet choice: As I stated earlier, my hunting buddies all steered me towards 180 grainers. I spent the first 15 years of my hunting career lobbing them at the deer without really thinking about it. When the time came to do my own reloading, I picked 165 grain Hornady Interlock SP's with the kind help of folks at shooters.com and never looked back. I have shot lots of deer with this bullet, and have never found them wanting.

My reason for posting is that I'd like to start back over and explore how I got where I am, and possibly take a new path. I've never had reason to question this load. Now that something must change, I figure now is a good time to look at it afresh.

I wouldn't bother shooting 180's at deer . The 150 is a much better deer bullet with the 165 being the best all around. I've had hunted with 125, 150,165,180, and 220 grains for deer and pass me the 150's!

Why "Must" something change??

Knock off a grain or 2 of new powder, work back up if you want and keep killing like you have been.

I started with IMR4895 in the 30-06, but now use H-4350. In my opinion/experience H-4350 is a better powder for the 30-06

I've had excellent results with H4895 and the 130 TTSX, if you want light and fast.

I have had an '06 for about 55 years and have shot just about every bullet weight made for it at something or other--mostly critters, but also targets. I am more of a .270 guy these days and I have muddled around with a variety of larger bores for elk and African game. However, I still keep the '06 sighted in and have several different loads with bullets ranging from 150 grains up to 200 on the shelf.

About the only major change I have made is switching to Hunter and Big Game for a couple of bullet weights. I get a little more velocity and more temperature stability, neither of which is probably noticeable under actual hunting conditions.

If you're not a tinkerer, I see no real need to abandon your old favorites. If you're bored, there are certainly a lot of options to explore these days.

In the big scheme of things, 2 grains is not a big change, but to me it was a signal that I should stand back and rethink. This was my very first reloading project for rifle. I've been humming along following my recipe for over 15 years. It probably makes sense to re-evaluate.

In the bigger picture, this is one area of reloading I stopped thinking about for over a decade. I stopped really considering 30-06 deer loads, just because I had something that worked well. It's been so long, I can't remember all the details that went into the original decision.

insecurity can be a bitch.

I think that the "best all-around" part is what hooked me on 165's. As I remember, I was planning a trip to the Texas Hill Country when I was originally cooking up the load. That plan fell through, and instead I closed on my farm that next summer. I shot the 165's that first year at deer camp, because there was not time to think about anything else.

Now, let's explore that idea a little more:

Why would you consider 165's a better all-around bullet and why would you chose 150's instead?

I'm thinking that it was this line of thinking, back in 2000 on Shooters.com that got me hooked on 165's.

After going thru a restless phase, I came to the conclusion H4350 was my mew go to powder for the 30-06. My Rem 700 Mtn Rifle miraculously puts most 150, 165, 180 grain projectiles in damm near same point of impact. Next phase will be the lighter projectiles.

There is a "good 30-06 loads" sticky in the reloading for big game rifles section. That's a great place to start.

Nothing wrong with sticking with what works but I'm a chronic experimenter. The 165 seems "just right" in 06. I really love 168 NBTs & Ramshot Hunter sparked by a Win large rifle magnum primer a lot; that's my "one load to kill it all". It'd be tough to go wrong w/ a 165 Gr Interlock tho.

The vast majority of folks here seem have settled upon H- or IMR-4350 or IMR's new 4451 (temp resistant 4350).

I've had great accuracy results from the 130 TSX & RL15 and would be surprised if you couldn't get that w/ your H-4895. My rifle gives identical POI w/ the TSX & Horn Spire of the same weight so I can practice and whack vermin on the cheap. Might be worth consideration?

The 06 is a great cartridge for which to load IME.

Good luck w/ the experimentation!

I'm not a gun writer but I like the 165 grain Hornadys too. I've had good luck with Hornady Interlocks in general. In fact I've had good luck with all 165/168 grain bullets in a 30-06. I've had my best results accuracy wise with a load of 57.5 grains of IMR4350, 165 grain Hornady Interlock SP (flat base), RP brass and a Federal 210 primer in my 30-06 Browning X-Bolt. Your results may vary. I wouldn't think you would have to worry too much about a temperature insensitive powder for your climate in Kentucky during deer season. But then, I may be wrong as I've never hunted deer outside upstate NY. Sometimes, having options is both a blessing and a curse ain't it?

Get a copy of the 2016 Hodgdon manual.

The load data for .30/06 shows that the sweet spot for powder suitability is at 150 grains, with lots of medium and slow powders giving good velocity. At 165 grains, the slower powders start pulling ahead.

In the same issue, Mule Deer has a great article that expands on what he's been preaching here and there for years; that 165gr bullets over one of the 4350s is a fine all-around load for the '06.

I used 165gr Sierra HPs over 56.5gr of I4350 for a while and it worked fine for deer and left a little room for more powder if I needed it, which I never did. The last deer I '06ed, however, was taken with a mild load of 46gr of H4895 corked with 150gr CT Partition Gold non-moly. Haven't tried that one yet in my current '06, but I still have 150 of the bullets I bought on closeout years ago, so I'll get to it eventually.

What are the charges of H4895 in the loads you've been using 150 and 165 grain bullets?

As Pappy mentioned, the 30-06 is at home with H4350. I also can't find any reason for a 180 on deer. I've used 150's, 165's and 180's on antelope to elk, and prefer a 165 of some sort. My loads usually top out around 59.0 grains of H4350 and a 165.

If you really want to change, retire your 30-06 for a 308!

The poor old man's conflicted enough as it is; don't make matters worse!😛

Both of them have been 47 grains of H4895.

Well, life is simpler at 55

I want to know what Pooh thinks...

Shaman, what's your velocity with the new H4895?

I'm looking at Hodgdon's online data and that isn't an overload with either of the cup and core bullets they're using. It' a half grain under listed max with the 165 Sierra and four grains under with the 150 Ballistic Tip.

Conflicted? I wouldn't say so. I am kind of scratching my head on it however. I haven't really stopped to think about it until now. The load has done a good job for me over the years. If I can knock off a couple of grains and keep going, I probably will.

What has me confused is how I came to be shooting the load in the first place. My best guess is that I had IMR 4895 on the shelf and someone suggested 165 grain bullets as a better all-around choice. Back in 2000, my hunting habits were not that well settled. I'd had a friend die and lost access to my last piece of deer hunting land. I just didn't know what I'd be doing next. Over the next summer, I closed on the 200 acres that's now the family deer camp. I went out and bagged two nice deer with that load and the rest is history.

Do you have a chronograph, what's the velocity?

Well I'll be dipped in . . .

Ah! I have it figured out. The load I looked at was the Hornady 165 gr GMX -- 46.7 grains MAX. You're right about the Sierra being a better fit.

Okay. I feel a bit better. I won't worry about reducing the load next time.

I don't feel I've wasted my time either. It's been good to pull up this rock and look underneath.

Since the powder jugs were acquired pretty far apart in time there could be a small difference needing a little tweak for best accuracy, but I don't see a safety issue. In fact 30-06 data is generally rather conservative. If a load really tightens up groups a few tenths above max in a modern bolt action I wouldn't worry about it.

Your Garand is a different matter though. Keep its loads separate.

It's been ages since I chrono'd the load, but I seem to remember it was right at 2700 fps or just a hair under. I have not chrono'd it with my new Ruger Hawkeye.

What I do remember is the doe I hit this past season. I caught her in the last minute of legal hunting. It was too dark to follow what happened after I shot, and my eyes were still boogered from the muzzle flash. I just unloaded, reached for the walkie-talkie and called for the deer wagon to come pick me up. Sure enough, she was toes-up at 150 yards.

Unless you have a chronograph and know the velocity of your load you haven't looked underneath any rock.

The Garand gets loaded with milsurp brass to keep it separate. I took it out of the deer rotation when my son stopped using it as his Yute rifle. I just took it out a couple weeks ago for the first time in a few years. I used 49 grains of H4895 under a 150 grain Rem PSPCL with the idea of maybe taking it out this year. This round completely eviscerated a buck at close range. My son hit him in the chest, but there was enough pressure generated that the abdomen opened up and all the guts spilled out intact. Yikes!

+1. That's all I would change. The OP's experience almost mirrors mine. However, lately, the only thing I've been experimenting with has been 200gr. nosler partitions though. RL26 and RL22 look like promising powder for the heavier pills.. When I was younger, I burned up truck loads of factory Remington corelokts, 150's, 180's and 220s. When I started handloading, I settled on the 165gr. hornady interlock with IMR4350 and didn't look back. Then it was the almighty 180gr. partition with H4350, then I tried to make the switch to H4350, but still keep IMR4350 around. It's been my go to powder for many other cartridges and the powder I use in many pet loads. H4895 is also a great powder that I use in my buddies 22-250.

shaman,

I would just keep using the same load to kill deer, and not worry about it!

Yup,if it's not broke,don't fix it.

I've been loading for and hunting an '06 off and one since 1960.
H4895 is a great powder for accurate, mild pressure loads. Works in my .280 and my .308's as well as the '06'.
Usually, less than top end loads, milder recoiling loads in the '06 don't shoot very accurately. But, with H4895, they do.
If you insist on top velocity, then I'd recommend either Ramshot Big Game or H4350 with 150 gr. bullets. If you want less recoil, and longer case life, then I'd recommend H4895 or the new IMR 4166.
I've shot everything from the 4198's up to H4831 in my current '06. Bullets from 110's to 220's All them hunting loads or milder practice loads that shoot the same zero(s) as the full power stuff.
I'd suggest you decide what you want from your ammo and then try out some loads. You may well be surprised at what you can do with a little testing. I was. E

Every rifle loony should have one constant in life, one that works day in and day out no matter what. The rest of the guns get tinkered with, but not this one. The "go to" rifle in other words.

Mine is a .30-06 custom Mauser which has been shot with the same old boring load of 4895 and the 165 Sierra HPBT for 20 years now. Does it get used much? Nah. It's there if I need a gun that I know is dead nuts on, and dead nuts reliable no matter what. It's like the mother hen looking after all the other rifles nestled beside it, and is content to stay behind when the rest get taken out for a fling. Am I tempted to experiment with that one? Nope. Every once in a blue moon I shoot up the couple boxes of ammo I keep handy for it, then reload it fresh.

As for bullets and powder choice, darn near any of it works in an '06. Find a combo that is accurate in your gun and stay with it, if it's your "go-to" gun. If it's deer we're talking, close your eyes and pick a bullet between 110 and 180 grains- they'll all send a deer to kingdom come. It ain't rocket science, and personally I have a lot more to contemplate/worry about in life than which bullet is the best for whacking a garden-variety deer.

I've found the 4895/4064 class of powder to work nicely in the 30-06 with 165/168 grain bullets when the last bit of velocity isn't a big deal.

A friend of mine bought a new Ruger American in 30-06 and topped it with a VX-2 4-12x40AO, and I couldn't resist the urge to make some ammo for him.

In my collection of "stuff" I had a stash of once fired brass squirreled away even though I hadn't been loading 30-06 in a long time. I prepped a batch and assembled them into cartridges along the lines of what would be a Garand appropriate match load with the Hornady 168 bthp.

My friend went out and tested five different loads IIRC, and my zero load development "Garand match" stuff was tied for first place precision. Well under MOA at 200 yards.

Almost as esy as a 308.

See, I'm not all that worried about getting top velocities out of this load. The maximum range I'll be shooting a deer is about 250 yards, and the past 20 or so deer taken with it have all been 150-175 yards. That is not stretching the envelope for '06.

I'm also not all that worried about experimenting with this load. It knocks the snot out of deer. I just couldn't figure out why I picked the combination in the first place. If I was to show up today on 24hourcampfire with my head as full of mush as it was in 2000, I'm sure I'd go H4350 under 150 grain bullets. However, there's probably nothing particularly wrong with what I've got.

Keeping the velocity down a bit ain't a bad idea with cup and cores used up close, unless you like to grind your burger in the field. A .308, or an '06 loaded like one, works just fine. I shoot for the top of the heart, and unless the angle puts the bullet forward into the shoulder, meat damage is minimal.

If my '06 makes it into the woods this season, it'll be loaded with the 170gr Prvi Thunders I got last year, kind of a poor man's Serbian Trophy Bonded. RevMike's plugged a couple of his piggies with them of late. Might go for a shoulder shot with these as there's only a tiny core in the nose.

Gnoahh: You're absolutely right. We really don't know what goes on inside the gun safe when the door is closed. My personal feeling is that a good deer rifle inspires the others to perform better and gives them confidence.

Conversely, the first time I took out this H4895 load was back in 2001, and I tried to cap a nice 6 pointer on the Opener. The Win 670 just went "click." I blamed the rifle and put it off by itself for a year in disgrace. The next weekend, I used the same batch of ammo in my Rem 742 to nail that same buck AKA Spike the Wonder Buck with my 8 yr old son beside me in the blind. That's been my only failure to fire in 15 years. The WIN 670 came out of the closet the next year properly chastened and has functioned flawlessly since. I gave it to #3 son when he reached the proper age. He took a nice 9 pointer with it last year. Sometimes you have to make an example of your deer rifles so the others know that poor performance will not be tolerated.

Totally agree, and his 30-06 with the 47.0 H4895 makes it a 308, which is about ideal.

I feel 150's work best on deer size game but if black bear or similar are on the menu I like 165's. If I only used my '06 on Elk/Moose I'd stick to 180's. This whole thread is something of a skullf**k though.

Sorry for your skull. It's a middle-aged equivalent of waking up with a tattoo you cannot remember.

I called my buddy Big Bob and asked him what I was thinking. Bob is a retired gun editor. He's80. Bob said I was trying to cook a load that worked with all my 06 rifles including the Garand. He reminded me that I was hot on buying a Dillon press in those days and was thinking high volumes. I had forgotten completely.

For thin skinned BG, such as WT's at the usual distances, don't forget about lighter bullets, 125's, 130's, etc. I'm not talking about 500 yds, etc. I have other options for that.

I get good performance with the 130 gr. Hornady at around 3K fps, full penetration with chest shot WT's, bleeding from entrance and exit holes, impressive wound channels and mostly DRT.

Accuracy can be impressive. Here's a 130 gr. load shot in a Husky '06, using Ralph Council 130's. They work on WT's, too. Have posted this one before.

I've shot the 135 gr. Cutting Edge Copper Raptor in my .308, accurate and a killer. It would work as well in the '06, another lighter weight, high performance bullet. And, of course don't forget Barnes bullets of similar weight.

The speed of those light bullets, the killing performance with light recoil makes them pretty impressive, IMO.

Both groups being the same isn't some giant right wing conspiracy, just coincidence. Hillary said for you all to trust me on that...

DF

Interesting about the Hornady, which they list as a varmint bullet? Have you tried the 125 Sierra?

Never got around to trying the 125 Sierra. I think it would be similar.

To me, the secret is 3K fps., expansive performance and very light recoil.

Set up like that, the '06 acts like a completely different round.

DF

Personally, for deer at woods ranges, I'll take a sedate 150 or 165 load over lighter fare.

My brother agrees with you. My handloads.








P

I like the 180 NP's in my .30/06,they work well on small....




And large...

Damn Ken. That one was small enough you could put him on a stick like a marshmallow and roast him over a campfire..

Yup.

Yeah, but you kill jackwabbits with a .460 Wby...

DF

Nice!

I'd go with that load for elk.

My light bullet scenario is limited to WT's and hogs.

Bigger stuff, bigger bullets.

One thing nice about light bullets, they kill deer and they don't kick. If one has a youngster starting out and only has an "06, this combo will serve that purpose well.

I built a very light '06 HVA rifle and went with light bullets, thinking it may kick a bit with heavier ones. I was surprised how well they perform and how pleasant they are to shoot.

Mathman pointed out the 130 Horn is listed as a varmint bullet. A .30 cal. varmint bullet will perform a bit different than a .224 cal./.243 cal. varmint bullets. The extra mass aids in whacking bigger critters without blowing up too bad. They are expansive, but do exit. I keep them out of bone; that could get messy.

DF

Yup,I do.

I haven't shot any lately, but back when I was a poor grad student collecting deer, and the '06 was the only center-fire rifle I owned, I shot a bunch of them. I always took neck shots and never lost a deer. However, I never had one shoot completely through the neck of big south Texas whitetails and it was not unusual to find shrapnel from the bullet jackets stuck in ears, chest, etc. They were definitely dumping all of their energy into the neck.

I like the 165 Hornady Interlock with 56.5 grs. IMR 4350
It is accurate in my rifle and even with the 22 inch barrel it is 2886 fps.

The 130 Horn must be a tad tougher bullet than the 125 Sierra. My 130's exit, don't blow up like that, even at 3K fps.

DF

Its an 06, you would have to screw up pretty bad to not end up with a decent deer load.

Shaman, I'm not nearly as old as you, I'm 57. I also see no reason to change. I reload some, for 6.5x55 and .223. Some people have mentioned 150 grain bullets being better for deer than 180's. I don't see it that way. We have two 30-06's in the family. In one of them we shoot 150 grain Corelokts and the other 165 grain Corelokts. The reason has nothing to do with bullet weight but accuracy. Those weights were what shot best out of those rifles. If 180's shot best then that's what we would shoot.

Of course where I live 30-06 bullet weight is a moot point anyway. Most Texas deer are pretty small comparatively.

H4350. Your 165 of choice.

Not much to know. Complete no brainer.

If it doesn't shoot, fix or sell the rifle.

That will sure kill deer deader.

^This^
My interest has moved from experimenting with rifle loads (which I once loved to do) and my reloading is utilitarian: boring old loads that have killed a pile of game and keep killing it for me. I'd rather hunt, fish or play with grandkids than reload or shoot targets. My '06 ready-to-hunt locker is filled with 165 Hornady Interbonds and 180 Swift A-frames, both over H 4350. The A-Frames shoot one inch higher than the 165s at 100 yards. Critters bigger than deer and caribou get the 180's on intentional hunts but get the 165s without any care from me if they show up when 165's are in the rifle.

A few years ago I started to work up a 165 GMX load to replace both, hit pressure problems early and have never finished the project.

I grew up on Jack O'Connor so loaded 165 Sierras over 56 grains of IMR 4350 (an incredibly accurate load in my first '06) and slew deer, bear and elk. Examining bullet wounds finally nudged me to add 180 NP's for elk and moose, which eventually gave way to Swift A-frames at the suggestion of Ron Kesselring at his store in NW Washington. Then reading JJ Hack in my early years here got me interested in Interbonds and though he has moved on, the 165 Interbonds became my staple.

I respect the 06, but never was a fan, perhaps as I found lesser recoiling rounds to shoot as flat and kill as fast.

I would recommend the Barnes 130 TTSX, and better yet in a 308. It and the 150 in the 308 (4895 will do well in it) will give you the 30 cal if you want that for confidence, but less recoil. I think you will be pleased how they compare to the 165, if you are open to making a change.

Nothing wrong with a 130 270, in plain jane corelokts, mild on the shooters shoulder, deadly on deer. Again, if you set on the 06, well you are in good shape if you don't mind the recoil and hit vitals well.

Hornady's are great, used many myself, but now my go to bullet is the Accubond in everything but the 6mm/243, where I use the 95 ballistic tip. That last one has killed as good as any larger caliber on deer for me and many others.

Personally I just cannot warm up to shooting rifles with more recoil than necessary, but not knocking those who don't mind it and shoot well. I always thought the 270/130 was a gold standard for deer hunting, for less recoil and better trajectory.

Now, a 243, 6.5 Creedmoor, 260, and 7mm-08 have my nod, and recently the 6.5x47 as I handload. If/When I do add a 30 cal, it will more than likely be a 308 in a 20-22" spouting 130-150s, emulating some of the above rounds to common hunting distances.

One of the largest bears was killed by a 22LR. The natives in Alaska shoot very small cartridge rifles at game that many would never do. So in the search for the lowest recoiling cartridge that will still kill, where is the end?

I have a friend that is always trying to push the lower limit on deer. Last year he shot six times before the deer died. Maybe he should have tried something a little larger? Another friend who lives just west of Rocky Mountain National Park used to pick up a box of 6mm ammunition to hunt elk. He is used to having to put 5 rounds into an elk before it fies. He's a nice guy but I think he's not being a responsible Hunter. He tried a 280 of mine and dropped the elk in her tracks. "He never seen nothing like it!" (His words)

I've shot deer with a 06 since the sixties. I've tried other cartridges but I find nothing wrong with the 06 if the hunter doesn't use too fragile of bullets.


I've killed a doe with a 22-250 once, but that is what I had with me. The 22-250 can do the job, but I wouldn't take shots with one that I have taken with the 06.

I think it's irresponsible to plan on shooting more than once to kill game animals. Using a cartridge that is too large in other's eyes isn't a problem for me.

Unless you're really young or really old, .30-06 recoil really shouldn't be an issue.

Yep, I shot my 30-06 this morning. It's shooting great, all ready for my elk hunt.

When I first started deer hunting I used a 25-06 with 100 gr bullets. I worked in a gun shop and bought different rifles as a hobby. I thought I needed an elk rifle and moose, and bear.
Now I realize that the best thing about a 30-06 is that you can neck it up to .35 caliber and do everything with a 250 gr cup and core bullet.
whelennut

I developed a chronic shoulder problem that started in 2007 that made me give up bowhunting. I've since learned 35 Whelen is about my high-water mark as far as recoil goes. I bought my last 30-06 in 2014 and vowed I'd work my way down from there on out. A normal day at the bench does not cause a flair-up, but I'm not going to push it.

If I can kill deer with a sizeable reduction in recoil, I'm going for it. Those 165's over H4895 are just right.

Every deer my late wife ever killed was with the 125 Sierra.
When we went to Alaska to hunt caribou. I made her carry 150 gr in case a bear started chewing on us. Otherwise the 125 would have worked on caribou.
IMO
Try the 125 Sierra at 2900 fps.
whelennut

Bugger, I have shot deer at 400 Lasered yards, using 28.5 gr of Varget under a 105 Amax via a 6mmBR...double lunged, exit golf ball sized hole, and deer struggled to stay on it's feet for 25 yds and dropped.

Proper bullet and shot placement trumps horsepower IME. As i said before, I respect the 06 and nothing against folks who use it and shoot them well. Yet for deer, ALOT of options work well, when the shooter places their shot with a good bullet.

I owned a Ruger 77 SS Laminate for a brief time in 06, not the best stock choice or pad, shot well, but not as fun as other rounds. Not a 416 RM - yes I have shot one, but just did not enjoy it. Now a buddy's 300 WM in BAR shot softer than my 06. Gun stock shape/type and pad material matter to the shooter no doubt.

Dirtfarmer, that is a wicked 308 round, 135....

Shaman, talked to my cousin in Alaska ysdy, he cannot fish, or shoot, anything. Had shoulder surgery recently, wish you well on that shoulder.

If that 165 ever starts flaring up your shoulder, many good lighter bullet options will kill deer very dead, to most common distances, with less punch to yourself. Sure you will decide what your recoil tolerance is going forward.

As to the bear and 22 comment, well, we are talking deer hunting and the fella is in KY.........I assume bear are not in the equation, but perhaps I am wrong.

FWIW, I started out shooting my first deer with a 7mm RM, and since then shot 243s, 270s, 338-06, 338 Win Mag, all types of 6-7mm rounds down to the 6BR and 7BR in rifles, 357 rifle, and the 7mm TCU (7x223 improved) in a handgun.

Guess what? All Deer hit - died.

Just sharing my experience for those who have not had the opportunity to enjoy shooting more rounds flinch free during a range session, and seen first hand the killing performance of them on game.

Lest anyone doubt a round's "Worth on game" - don't knock them if you have yet to try a mild recoiling round with good bullets.

IMHO, there is a Direct Correlation in Recoil and Blast - and Field Accuracy.

I might add, I will not endorse carrying a marginal round or improper bullets when pursuing dangerous game, or when hunting in big bear country. Whatever you use, shoot it well or find something you do. And enjoy it. Life is too short. I see people beating themselves up shooting guns far larger than needed for the task at hand, and it is their ego that keeps them from making choices that will allow more enjoyment in the shooting sports.

Have fun folks, and be safe

Depends entirely on the weight of the gun and the shape of the stock. I can shoot my 1903A1 Springfield- 9+ pounds, Type C stock- all day long with full tilt loads and walk away with a smile on my face. One of my Mauser sporters weighs 6½ pounds, with a tiny wisp of an elegant stock, and a magazine full of Lake City Match ammo turns my shoulder black and blue and resurrects the flinch I thought I had cured after giving up trap shooting on a regular basis.

Arguments pro and con over this load or that being necessary for this or that person pass right over my head unless I know the weight and layout of the rifle in question.

Gnoahh has a point. I can shoot my 375H&H AI all day no issues. But I have a red pad 7mm RM that hurts a lot. Stock fit and weight and stock fit are the issues. Did I mention stock fit?
For anyone who feels that a cartridge kicks too much, there's likely another culprit.
I grew up with an 06. I think it's a cartridge even the most feeble could shoot. I have arthritis and bersitus but with proper fit stock no issues. My 350 RM with fully loaded 250 grain bullets are no problem because the stock fits. That rifle is around 6 lb.

The very first center fire I owned had a steel butt plate - a 98 Mauser 7.9x57. I was shooting it prone with factory loads and I was in my early teens. I still remember how much I thought that rifle kicked - the 8mm was an assume round.

So I suspect that people that think the 270 is the heaviest recoiling rifle they can handle are not necessarily gay and whimpy (though that's still a possibility 😄😄😄)

If the '06 does get to you just get a .270 with 130's and you really haven't given up much. People who hate the .270 are weird.

The 30-06 with 130 grain Barnes TTSX is a great combo. It seems to be big enough in expansion to put good-leaking holes in broadside lung shots, while also able to penetrate end-to-end on a big deer if needed.

Light recoil and shoots flat.

Or more likely they enjoy teasing 270 shooters, because they are soooo easy.

Or more likely yet they're UnAmerican Commie Pinko bas-tards.

It takes 270 electoral votes to become President! That's just how American that round is!

So the 270 is responsible for Obama?

Overly simplified, but basic truth: For every action there's an equal but opposite reaction. If you launch a 130 grain bullet at well over 3000 fps, it'll generate as much recoil as a 150 going decidedly slower. The only way to generate less recoil with a light bullet is to drive it at the same velocity as the heavier one. That's pure physics. Real world felt recoil, again, is dependent on a lot other factors such as stock fit, gun weight, etc. which can abrogate the effects of recoil to one degree or another.

Actually I think you'd have to screw up pretty badly not to end up with an excellent deer load.

No, unfortunately the 270 can't sway the will of the people. But I do believe McCarthy listed .270 hatred as an "anti-American activity".

But the 270 is a good coyote round.

Debating the worth of different cartridges is fun, but let's not forget what is way more important: Hunting skills that put us where the animal is, coupled with marksmanship skills. Once those aspects are mastered cartridge selection is an afterthought. Close your eyes and pick one. I swear if I listen to one more .30-06 vs. .270 argument I'm gonna commit myself to an asylum.

gnoahhh, teasing 270 owners can get to be a habit that is perhaps just too much fun. I have a 270 and am building another one and I have given both my sons 270's. But many just can't help teasing some 270 owners because it gets such a rise out of them. I doubt many actually hate or even dislike the 270. But I will stick to my statement that a 270 is a good coyote rifle.

Giving 270 owners grief is addicting.

I'm a Ford man, but that's a nice Farmall you are sporting in your avatar!

I think we should get a debate going over .348 versus .358!

My old farmer friend had an M-class, but kept a Ford around to pull it out of the mud, which happened pretty regularly.

If you get tired of this, troll over to the pistol forum and let them know that 45 acp is best and 9mm is for girls.

Even my wife prefers shooting 45 ACP. Ooops! Sorry, that just slipped out.

Look, I'd be the first to tell you my dislike of 270 WIN is purely irrational. I dislike it so much, I bought a bunch of 270 WIN brass A) because it was cheap B) because I knew I would never own a 270 WIN rifle. I am resizing them to 25-06. It gives a distinct pleasure knocking the queer out of them. I don't buy into the idea that shooting a 270 WIN makes you queer. However, I am not an expert. I'm still only asking questions. Just to be certain, I keep an enbloc of M2 Ball in my pocket while I'm handling the 270 brass.

My feeling is that we all have our own likes and dislikes, and it is better to own up to them. As a shaman, I would say most of our decisions regarding rifles and such are driven from motivations that are beyond The Veil.

Back to the original subject: I'm perfectly satisfied now how I got to my 165-over-'4895 load. It seemed odd to me last week that I would start off that way. For a good long time, I was not comfortable with any form of experimentation. I'm still really conservative when it comes to loading. However, I can see how I came to use it.

1) 165 grain was considered a good general purpose choice.
2) I picked Hornady, because I remembered that red boxes had been what I'd used when I loaded with a buddy briefly in the early 80's.
3) I picked IMR 4895 at first, because I wanted to load for the Garand. I just found an enbloc of 165's in the back of the cupboard the other day.
4) I switched to H4895, because it was easier to get locally in those days
5) In the back of my head I was thinking of one 30-06 for every '06 rifle I owned, figuring that it was only a matter of time before I started running everything on a Dillon press. It's 15 years now. I still haven't bought the Dillon.


Thanks all for helping me get my head back on straight.

Anyone who wants to know how good the .270 really is should pick up a cheap copy of Jack O'Connors "The Rifle Book" off flea bay or Amazon. I don't think anything he has to say on the .270 has been proven wrong yet. The whole book is a good read from back in the day.

Lots of folks learned to hate the 30/06 during World War II....and the M1 Garand!!

The ones it got pointed at!

Yeah, but my side of the family picked the winning side for a change. Dad shot his M1 left-handed. The instructor tried to make him change, but Dad qualified as a sharpshooter, so they quit bitching at him. They would not let him and his brothers fight in the ETO. They all went to the Pacific.

I had mine out just the other day. Funny thing, but Dad was really happy when I got mine from the CMP back in 2000. He shouldered it once after I got it, sighted it out the window at the neighbor's yard and then passed it back to me. That was the last time he'd even touch it.

Yup!