Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters A real writing on the 30-30

I know this is not what you would like to see but I sure would .A gun writer view on the great 30-30 or 257 Savage or Roberts

Sam Fadala wrote what I think of as the definitive book on the 30-30 and 30-30AI in 1986, it is titled "Winchester's 30-30 Model 94".

What more can be written about the 30-30 that hasn't already been written, rewritten, sliced/diced, and examine in excruciating detail by dozens of writers over the past 121 years?

That is the best piece written about the .30-30 in recent memory.

(That coming from myself who views the .30-30 as a rifle loony's premo test bed for all manner of experimentation with cast and jacketed bullets, in bolt guns and lever guns.)

The 30-30 that I shoot the most is the unloved Savage 170. Despite the forearm rattle, which I agree is a PITA, it shoots better than 2 MOA with anything that you feed it.

A newbie to the world of .30-30's would be well advised to read the stuff that exists. Researching and then reading the old articles from the 20's to the present, and all the .30-30 info in all the books published in the same period would expand one's horizons on the subject far and away more than if yet another book was written. I will almost guarantee you there won't be any heretofore unknown knowledge of the .30-30 included in said book or article, with the possible exception of advances in powders/bullets. (And there lies five lifetimes worth of experiments with the .30-30 without even touching on the bullet/powder innovations of the last decade.)

Besides, it's a heckuva lot of fun doing the research into the old publications- and you learn about other stuff along the way too.

A kid showed up at the Cast Bullet Association national matches 30+ years ago with a 170, and comported himself quite well. (But that doesn't alter my distaste for those red headed step children! )

savage62,

An article on handloading the .30-30 (and some stuff about hunting with one) will appear in GUNS magazine in about 3-4 months. But as several posts on this thread point out, there isn't much to say about it that hasn't already been said--except for new powders and bullets, which are most of the justifcation for the article.

There is one contemporary gun writer who's pretty much beaten the .257 Roberts to death over the past 30-some years, to the point where his editors probably wouldn't run anything he wrote on the subject anymore. If you've missed his thoughts on the .257, you must stick to pretty obscure magazines, because he's written for just about all of them at one time or another.

Hell John, they keep coming out with new freshman algebra textbooks all the time, and at that level there hasn't been much new under the sun in a long time.

If only you could get some institution to force readers to buy every new iteration and edition the way colleges to it to students. You'd be rich!

Yeah, writing textbooks can be VERY lucrative; I've known a couple people who've done it. Unfortunately it also appears to be VERY boring, and doesn't have the side-benefits of gun and hunting writing...:-)

I have the Fadala book but it's been a long time since I read it. As I recall, it's little more than a cursory glance at best; not much to it.

Other older (and perhaps some newer) material will have more in the way of useful information.

As JO'C pointed out years ago, most 30-30s are Marlin and Winchester lever actions and are owned by guys who shoot a couple rounds of factory ammo each year, they aren't accuracy buffs or gun nuts, just everyday ordinary hunters. Those guys are, mostly, going to buy 150 or 170 grain factory ammo from Fed/Rem/Win. Maybe, if they feel the need to stretch their range potential a little, they'll buy some Hornady 140 grain Monoflex Leverevolution or Full Boar or the 160 grain FTX Leverevolution ammo. I've shot both the 140 grain and 160 grain Leverevolution ammo and it did well, but not enough better than the common at dirt 170 grain Remington RNCL for $15 per box of 20 to justify paying about 70% more.

I guess JOC never spent much time with any lever action Club such as Marlin Owners.They probably experiment with the 30/30 more than any other cartridge.I have 5 Marlin 30/30s right now.Some over a hundred years old and shot with iron sights.

That didn't make O'Connor wrong. My guess is that "everyday ordinary hunters" vastly outnumber the members of any lever-action club.

Have you guys attained vastly different results than possible with traditional 150/170 grain ammo?

I have always thought that, in his era of writing, JO'C had a better feel for what "the average ordinary hunter/shooter" was interested in than any/all of his peers.

Since I have lived in Nebraska, a state without a long history of deer hunting, I have only seen a couple of 30-30s while afield and being a gun guy, I notice that sort of thing. When I have hunting in other western states, I have seldom seen 30-30s in use, more often as truck guns carried by farmers/ranchers than by people who were actively hunting.

IIRC, Fadala advocated using his tubular magazine lever action 30-30s as two shot rifles, using handloads with pointed bullets, one in the chamber and one in the magazine.

He certainly mentioned that as an option, but I've tried spitzers in .30-30's and 150's don't shoot enough flatter than typical blunt-nose bullets to make any real difference. The muzzle velocity just isn't there.

First tried 'em in a Savage 99, where of course there's no need for blunt bullets. Also tried 'em with the Fadala method, and most recently with FTX's. Even when cranked up with Leverevolution powder in a 24"-barreled Winchester Model 64 they don't shoot all that flat.

I'm helping a friend get into deer hunting, and fixed him up with a Marlin .30-30 complete with receiver sight, and d/t'ed for a scope if he wants one. (I tried to steer him into a Savage 99 but he didn't want to spend the money.) When he got around to asking if I would handload for him I said sure, but that I would be charging him about what he can buy factory stuff for at Walmart, and it wouldn't be materially better.

I've messed with spitzers in my M54 Winchester .30-30 and came to the same conclusion as ol' Mule Deer. For hunting I stoke my .30-30's and .303 Savages with 190 grain flat nosed soft cast bullets at nigh onto 2000fps.

Can't think of 2 cartridges that I could care less to read about........

I think 30-30's are boring, yet I have one and the older I get the more I like and use it.

All you need to know about .30-30's is they're not quite as good as a .303 Savage with the 190 grain Silvertip load and you can use .303 Savage loading data for them. There!

Oh yeah, they're almost as good as .32 Win Spec.

I've never heard what a "strong action" .30-30 could do. The only factory rifles I can think of in that category would be the Winchester Model 54's and the Ruger #1. The Winchesters are collectible and 80 years old, and the Rugers were limited production and have been unusually hard to obtain, unless you pay a premium for them. I do know where there's a custom High Wall in .30-30 Ackley, but the receiver's rusty and they want far too much for it. The current Miroku Browning/Winchester Low Walls could be rebored to .30-30 and make a neat rifle, but again not a cheap proposition.

I'd probably jump on a Ruger if one became available at a good price, but I have a ton of bigger .30's, and I don't really see the point of turning a .30-30 into a .300 Savage...when I already have four .300 Savages

I think it was Ken Waters years ago who wrote of the .30-30 as not a "super-anything" but an useful round in the light, handy, Win & Marlin carbines, which is why millions were sold over the decades. If I ran across an interesting .30-30, I'd surely hunt with it, but it would be at moderate ranges or less. I have a Contender carbine and took a doe with it a few years ago - it's quite accurate, but a little fussy to work, and not easily fixed.

The Marlins of the 1950's, the Savage 1899's, and of course the early M94's all have a nice character about them. But I would stick to moderate loads, with any of them. Maybe 125 or 130's in the 1899, for a bit more speed.

The Remington 788 is probably tied with the Winchester 54 and Ruger #1 as the strongest factory built 30-30s.

Marlin 336s are pretty strong actions, but the weak link in the 30-30 chain is probably the thin brass. Regan Nonneman rechambers them from 30-30 to 307 and from 35 Rem to 356, so there doesn't appear to be a strength issue with the Marlins.

If you haven't read it, JO'C wrote a nice chapter on the 30-30 in his book, "The Hunting Rifle".

Hah!!! Blam blam Sam!!!

What a great cartridge used in some great rifles.
It's days are numbered, however, replaced by ARs in 6.8 SPC.

I don't think there is really a need to hot-rod the .30-30 with both the .300 Savage and .308 Winchester available.

I have always liked taking a Winchester 94 along on casual outings. I have owned them in .25-35, .30-30 and .32 Special. If I ever decide to latch onto another one, it will probably be a .30-30. The other two cartridges are hard to find and not a lot of fun to reload. There just aren't a lot of bullet choices out there that will work in 94s.

I am playing around now with a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington, and remembering all of the above. I haven't run across any factory loads and even brass is hard to come by. My idea was to load it with new factory brass and good 220-grain bullets and kill an elk with it...just because. Now, I am seriously thinking about selling it and moving on.

I know one thing, though: the .30-30 as a factory cartridge offering is going to outlive me!

Hot rod? With the exception of a few boxes for practice and hunting in the fall I rarely load full snort .30-30's, but I do shoot sacks full of low velocity cartridges every year. If I had a nickel for every 150 grain plain based cast bullet driven by 6 grains of Red Dot/Clays/Bullseye out of a .30-30 I could buy this website!

Lots of 180's and 190's with 16 grains 4759, 1500-ish fps, too. If that performance was gotten out of a .357 handgun the owner would be strutting around bragging about his killing machine. Years ago I whacked a bunch of deer with that load, it ain't as much of a slouch as you might think.

Therein lies the true beauty of the .30-30- its versatility and willingness to do anything asked of it. Kind of like an old Labrador.

Long range slayer of huge magnificent beasts? Oh hell no. Ideal for the tinkerer and eastern deer hunter? Oh hell yes!

I don't know how strong the action is, but the Savage 340 .30/30 I had was the most accurate .30/30 I ever shot.

Even with the old Weaver 4x on it

John Wooters used to run hot .30/30s out of a TCR single-shot at kinda-sorta .300 Savage levels. Best as I recall, he didn't publish his loads for fear someone would try them in a weaker rifle.

I figure the .30 WCF is fine as it is and plenty of rifle for woods use, just not something with much loony potential. A falling block single shot chambered for it would be nice for targets and woods walking, but the few Ruger and Browning turned out aren't likely to show up in my LGS anytime soon, unfortunately.

A common sentiment re: 340's. Mine was very accurate also, if more than a bit homely. I consider them with their single locking lug to be on par with M94's strength-wise. What gave me pause was it appeared to be ill suited to handle escaping gas in the event of a case failure. It could've been an unfounded fear, who knows? It had huge sentimental value (Pop's gun), so instead of selling it I gave it to a nephew who hasn't fired it since I gave it to him eight years ago, and probably won't fire it during the next eight years, or ever. (His shooting iron of choice these days: an F/A-18 Hornet.)

I think most folks would enjoy a 30-30 more if they shot cast from it.

I haven't shot jacketed bullets from my 30-30 in years.

+1 on the cast:



Blue Dot works well too.

Here's some 30-30 writing I'll bet you haven't seen:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030varmint.htm

My Marlin .30-30 and .35 Rem are by far my favorite guns to shoot and hunt with. I like to get up close to my intended target.

Yes indeed! One of the most fun load I've shot is 10 grains of Unique with Lyman's 311466 (150 grs.) and it puts all shots under 1" at 50 yards from my 336A. My deer load is RCBS 30-180 FN and 35 grs of H-414 (1970 fps) which cluster 2.3 MOA for 18 groups. But, we've all heard that Micro Groove barrels won't shoot cast.

I've been saying that for years, but it would seem nobody but we few cares. I have .30 caliber tubes that have never seen a jacketed bullet, and never will.

As my late friend Joe Harz would say, "You can lead a man to reason but you cannot make him think."

The 30-30 loaded with a max load of LeverEvolution powder and a 170 grain Sierra FN is a fairly speedy round out of my 30-30 H&R Single Shot with a low Hodgdon published pressure to boot.

With several deer taken with this load, it is my favorite woods type deer round.

My opinion is the .30-30 is an excellent cast bullet chunker!

Anything worth doing with a .30-30 is likely worth doing twice.

I believe there is always room for an article on the .30-30. It is a versatile cartridge which allows the handloader to develop basic skills which cross to loading and shooting any cartridge.



I have the Fadadla book and while it gives good basic coverage on the .30-30 the discussion of using spitzer bullets in tubular magazines is a distraction today. The new Hornady FTX bullets eliminate the need for this – IF the FTX bullet will shoot in your rifle. The FTX bullet will give a few accuracy problems in some rifles.

The Fadala book is not a useful tool for the new user of the .30-30 Ackley Improved.



Fadala could have Improved his book with a more detailed discussion of loading the .30-30 cartridge. A discussion of some common loading difficulties such as: crimping the case mouth while seating bullets on compressed loads. The various types of crimp available to the handloader. Thinning of the case mouth with repeated loading. Cracked and broken cases along with their removal. The use of short bullets (short COL) such as the Sierra 125-grain JHP and possible feeding issues.

A chapter on sights with a discussion of open sights and adjusting the steps on the open sight ladder. Various types of receiver sights and their adjustment. Front sights could provide enough material for a chapter by themselves.

A chapter on targets is appropriate to the discussion of iron sight shooting. Simple math formulas and or a chart for the amount of target covered by the front sight at various ranges would be valuable. Discussing the difference in sighting your rifle for the bullet to hit at the top of the bead or to strike the center of the bead is important to the iron sight hunter. I believe it has been quite a while since I have seen a useful article on the use of iron sights in a magazine.



When it comes to articles on the .30-30 few are as interesting as the Phil Sharpe article: “That ‘Ol Thutty Thutty” from the March 1952 American rifleman. You can shoot a .30-30 for many years and still have new things to try.



When it comes to the .30-30AI Sam could not run the risk of an open discussion of high pressure loads for the Improved cartridge.

Ackley was clear in his writing the Improved cartridge operate at higher pressures.

I have read several articles in the last over the years on the .30-30AI. Robert Hutton, H.V. Stent Ward etc. I believe the definitive article on the cartridge waits to be written. An author contemplating writing an in-depth article on the .30-30AI would be well served to read Robert Hutton’s article from the May 1961 issue of Guns and Ammo. While not as in depth as the handloader would like it answers many questions.

Rifle loony you are not. Just sayin'.

Don't forget the two articles Mr. Waters did for on the 30-30 for Hand Loader magazine back in the late sixties and earl seventies in which one of the rifles he used was a model 54 Winchester. He found the case was the limiting factor to pressure than a strong action. I use mine for home defense.

I found a old JB article from the 90s in an old defunct magazine " Game Journal" about the 257 Roberts . Also JOC mentions it fairly often I his writings as the family had one used mostly by his wife and sons. JB may be able to steer you to where you could find that article on line somewhere it's a pretty good read.

As to the 30-30 I think it is really under rated asto it effectiveness. I just cringe when I see some typewriter jockey use the term rainbow trajectory or claim it to be effective to 100 yds or so. Next month the same writer will be yammering about shooting game at 600-700 yds with his whiz bang wonder cartridge. I have long maintained that the limiter on the 30-30 has been them fact that it image it's bones in a short barreled carbine that did not lend itself to scope sighting. I have long maintained I would rather have to hit a 8" steel gong at 200 with a open sighted 30-30 than the same gong at 300 with a open sighted 30-06. A friend and I use to both have octagon barreled 94s with rifle length barrels his a Canadian Centenial and mine a 94 classic both fitted with Williams receiver sights We would hang out at an old strip mine site and blast away at various rocks and dark/light spots in the old high wall. Of course after a trip or two we pretty much had the distances doped out but any cantaloupe sized rock at 300 yds or under was in grave danger. I curently have a winchester 64a that I haul out occasionally. Evidently the deer have a lot of respect for it as I have only had one really dumb one show itself while I was carrying ita d it was only 75 yds or so which was mostly a pud shot and didn't require much of a stretch . As to cast bullets I would like to get my hands on one of the NRA muskets and the ladder sights on it. That would be a fun rock blaster. Now I wonder if the old strip mine was ever reclaimed. Hummmm

With an open sighted .30-30 I've killed an 8 point buck at 200 yards, a turkey at 175 yards, and a Bull Moose up close and personal. None of those were very difficult feats either. It's way more than a hundred yard deer gun.

Reminds me back 15 or so years ago a fellow hunter came back to camp to ask for help finding a deer he had shot. He said," the deer was about 75 yards away and he was only using a .30-30", rather apologetically. The deer lay about 50 yards from where it was shot.

Yep, the perception of the .30-30 as very short-ranges is common, both among hunters and gun writers. But that isn't the big reason very few articles on hunting with the .30-30--or, especially, handloading the .30-30--are published anymore.

The .30-30 isn't written about much because, as some of the previous posts noted, there simply isn't much interest. Most hunters who've used the .30-30 for a long time know what it will do, and aren't usually interested in reading gun magazines, because they're not interested in the latest "advances" in cartridges, rifles, scopes, etc. Which is what most gun magazines publish these days. (Actually, they mostly did way back when, too, something we often forget because a lot of what they covered is now old.)

Interest in handloading the .30-30 is even smaller, because the percentage of .30-30 users who handload is probably far below the percentage of handloaders who use newer cartridges. Unlike a lot of factory ammo these days, factory .30-30's are pretty cheap and don't require "premium" bullets to work well.

And despite what some on this thread might believe, handloading the .30-30 doesn't actually change it's capabilities much either. As I already noted, spitzers don't make a substantial difference in trajectory because they're not started very fast, even with newer powders. While the .30-30 certainly is much more than a 100-yard cartridge, it isn't a 400+ yard cartridge, and that's what most handloaders are interested in. And despite what some people have suggested here, even those few hunters who handload .30-30's are about as interested in cast bullets as eating tofu.

Consequently, even when magazines do assign something on handloading the .30-30, it's not going to be a long feature article. Instead it's going to be short, and mostly consist of new powders and bullets. There's very little interest in old powders and bullets that the few .30-30 handloaders have been using for decades.

Why would there be? Previous writers have covered that subject numerous times, as some posters have pointed out here, and loading data for those same old powders and bullets is abundant and free on the Internet.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet a few bucks that after my column (limited to 1200 words) on handloading the .30-30 appears in GUNS, more readers will ask why the space was wasted when there are so many newer cartridges around. A few old .30-30 fans will probably feel good, but a few more will complain that their favorite old load wasn't mentioned.

Try as you might, you can't please them all, John!

Geesh, only way I can see that far down here is to look straight up.

My hunting world:

Paco Kelly's book on Lever Guns has some great stuff on the .30-30.. Don't use mine all that much, but I don't shoot as much big game as I used to either..

I kinda think they (.30/30) put the "huntin'" back in deer hunting.

Doesn't take any fieldcraft to pot one from a blind at 250 yards (some minor skill, yes, but not fieldcraft).

I just took up the .30/30 again, after a 40 year lay-off. It's kinda fun to sneak up on deer again, like we used to try to, when we were kids and had zero skills but lots of ambition.

It's harder to find a place to "still-hunt" these days, but when you can, it's still more funner. Instead of picking a spot with a long view, getting down in the brush kinda makes it more "interesting" for me.
I guess I could do that with a bow, but I ain't backslidin' THAT far back. I have limited time to hunt, so I will keep on using a rifle.

Yep, am semi-planning to take out the Model 64 Winchester I purchased last year during our visit to Whittaker Guns. It's the rifle used for my handloading column for GUNS, and it shoots pretty well, even with a "mature" guy behind the sights.

I'll be all over your article! I just received a pristine 1980 Marlin 336 .30-30 and I do reload. I look forward to it!

Expat

I've always thought the 64 to be the most handsome of all lever guns. Never had the jack in my jeans to own one so, I settled for a 1977 Marlin 336A, which has done fine. Although, in the thickets I hunt, my 336SC is a bit handier.

That's the one you bought out from under me? I've been waiting to see a "write-up" on that one. I've been wondering what I missed out on, when you got to it before I did.

Actually, with my eyesight, my Marlin is a better choice for me. The M8-4X I stuck on top of it helps me immensely. It's nice and handy, the little 336SC (short magazine, 20" barrel) is fun to pack around, and a heckuva lot different than my 24" barrelled M70 .270, but I gotta admit the .270 is known as "Old Death" in some circles. The Marlin gets fed "store-bought" ammo, as I don't think I'll ever shoot it enough to bother loading for it. Besides, the ammo companies have had a LONG time to get the ammo/bullets right, and they've done an awfully good job of it, near as I can tell.

Yeah, if I weren't enamored of Savage M1899's as .30-30 vehicles I would entertain owning a Winchester 64.

Joe,

64's are nice rifles, but for a while, maybe 12 years ago, I had a Marlin 36 (not 336) .30-30 with 24" barrel, half-magazine and Williams receiver sight. It was really accurate too, and often I wonder why it ever got sold!

ratsmacker,

Yep, that's the one!

The first thing I mention in my column is why anybody would bother handloading the .30-30. Then, of course, I discuss the handloads...:-)

I had a Marlin 36 as well. it had a two digit serial#. very nice rifle but the trigger was awful.Unfortunately someone had reblued the case hardened receiver which looked kind of strange.

Gun scribes have been writing for decades how much more effective the .35 Rem is over the .30-30. I don,t think any of them were well versed in both cartridges. I've found at 150 yards and beyond the 30-30 is significantly more effective of the two. At close range the .35 is better though.

The Ultimate 30-30 Benchrest rifle
Mike Turner has taken the 30-30 beyond anybodies thoughts.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?95849-Why-I-Shoot-the-30-30-in-Benchrest

moosemike,

Not a big deal, but someday I'd like to see somebody post "SOME gun scribes" say so-and-so. Amazingly enough, despite what some shooters obviously think, gun writers don't agree any more than the members of the Campfire. I've also the same is true of African PH's, Alaskan guides, or any other group of hunters/shooters.

Personally, I haven't found either the .30-30 or .35 Remington significantly more effective than the other. But then I usually haven't found the sometimes amazing differences in "killing power" many hunters find in various cartridges of similar power either. My observation is that if an animal's hit in the right place with a bullet that expands and penetrates sufficiently, it's going to be dead, pretty soon. There probably is a difference in, say, the .270 Winchester and .375 H&H, but I've seen them drop a wide variety of big game both very quickly and relatively slowly. This leads me to suspect quick kills often depend more on the mood of the animal than the cartridge.

1948 336 A-DL.Gonna see how 190 Hawk's shoot.They shoot real good in 303 Savage's.Perfect for the distances I shoot Whitetail's here in the Northeast.Can't test it out in the yard 'tho. [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img]

Ok. Col. Whelen, Elmer Keith, Jack O'Connor, and Col. Askins have all said the .35 Rem.is more potent on deer size game than the .30-30. I know of other lesser known gunwriters who have said it too.

Hmmm...

Well they're all full of shyt as far as I can tell and I'd bet I've shot more deer with a .30-30 and probably as many with a .35 as any of them. I sent my .35 down the road years ago because it didn't do a damn thing the .30-30 couldn't do just as well or better and the .30-30 is easier and cheaper to feed.

Butch, thanks for the link. Fella has to smile a bit after reading some of that.

Up until just recently I had 3 .30-30s. One a single shot, a Model 94 Trapper and a Savage 24. Savage went down the pike a few weeks ago but it was a pretty fair shooter. The M94 is a predictable 1-1/2" shooter at 50 and around 4" at 100. Not terribly precise but more than adequate for the 50 yard or less realm of southern woods shooting. The pile of deer and other critters it has put down would challenge medium size trucks.

The SS is a T/C Contender and it doesn't get loaded hot at all. OTOH, it is stupid accurate for a 5# and change hunting rifle. Started out loading with Hornady ".30-30" bullets years back and eventually asked myself why? Sierra 150 spitzers don't ever go over 1" @ 100 yards, usually hovering around 3/4" for 5 shots. It uses an old El Paso K2.5 scope, a dash of RX15, a plastic stock, and is blessed with dust of newt tail. It sits idle these days as I play around with the Sneezer...but not forgotten. One of these days I need to get serious and see just what it can do...

Blackheart,
I think you're spot on. I went through a ten year period where I only hunted with the .30-30, .32 Special, and .35 Rem. When I got drawn for Moose I took my .30-30 over the .35 because I was more impressed with it. I felt the .32 Special was as good as the .30-30 but with few bullet choices.

I played around with handloading the 30-30 for quite a few years. It was fun, but found that I could not do much better than the cheapest Federal 150 grain blue box stuff out of my 1952 Marlin 336RC. I did find some useful loads using the 125 grain Sierra HP for a light recoiling kids rifle that still kills deer very well. I love the cartridge and feel that as factory loaded it is a very good 200 yard deer gun, maybe a little further.

moosemike,

You got me curious about what older gun writers said about the .30-30/.35 Remington. I'd read some of it before but not for a while. I don't have any Askins books that discuss the subject, but found some other interesting stuff:

In THE COMPLETE BOOK OF RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS (1965) Jack O'Connor says, "Because of its heavier bullet of larger diameter, the .35 Remington is possibly a bit superior in killing power to cartridges of the .30/30 and .32 Special class." But in THE RIFLE BOOK (1978) he says, "Because of the large diameter of the big heavy bullet, it [the .35 Remington] it kills much batter than cartridges of the .30-30 class." Exactly why he changed his mind so definitely in 13 years is a mystery, because while he used the .30-30 some when young, he apparently never used the .35 Remington on big game.

Maybe Ned Roberts, the inventor of the .257 Roberts, convinced him. In BIG GAME HUNTING (1947) Roberts wrote, "It is unfortunate the Model 64 Winchester is only available in [the .30-30 and .32 Special]; it would be a far better killer on deer and other big game if it was furnished for the .33 W.C.F., .35 Remington or some other similar cartridge developing more killing power."

In Townsend Whelen's THE HUNTING RIFLE (1940), the Colonel lists the 110 head of big game he'd taken to that point--49 with the .30-30 but none with the .35 Remington. He didn't take much more big game during the rest of his life, and that with more modern bolt-action cartridges. I couldn't find any mention in his writing about the .35 Remington being superior to the .30-30, but maybe he did in some magazine article.

Elmer Keith definitely felt the .35 Remington was superior to the .30-30, but like O'Connor apparently never used it himself. Maybe one of the many people he guided used the .35, but if so he doesn't provide any examples. However, I suspect he made the judgment based purely on bullet diameter and weight.

Some of the later references mention the supposed 2200 fps of the 200-grain factory load in the .35 Remington. Today the listed velocity is somewhat less but I have never chronographed any in the three .35's I've owned that beat 2000 fps, and none of the references in my library list any that got 2000 fps either, including Ken Waters' PET LOADS. I have been able to beat 2000 fps with handloads, in one rifle getting about 2150 with 200's, but today suspect the 2200 fps was always BS with factory stuff.

In contrast, all the .30-30 factory ammo I've chronographed in rifles came close to advertised velocities in 24" barrels, and 20" carbine barrels got within less than 100 fps. In an old outside-hammer Sauer drilling I used to own, factory loads came closer to .300 Savage velocities from the 28" barrel. This velocity advantage may be why the .30-30 kills about as well as the .35, despite less bullet weight and diameter.

I couldn't agree more. The 64's are, in my opinion, the nicest looking lever gun ever made. I picked mine up earlier this year. It shoots 170 grain Partitions wonderfully. I haven't hunted it yet but I'll be home next week and will get out for a few days for moose. I'll have to carry it a day or two.

I am also in agreement the Winchester M-64 is the most handsome rifle ever built....such classic lines for any rifle. I like most had to settle for the poor man's model 64...the Marlin 336-A. I just wish Marlin had slimed up the forearms to match the M-64.

Doc

On page 219 of THE HUNTING RIFLE (1940) Townsend Whelen writes " It (.35 Rem) is a good cartridge of moderate power and range for use on all American big game. It kills very well at medium ranges, being in this respect much superior to cartridges of the .30-30 class"

The Colonel has a list called "Summary of game shot at" on page 253. He doesn't list having ever used the .35 Rem on game.

Yeah, I found the list, but not the quote. Thanks!

I suspect a lot of the .30-30/.35 opinion is due to the common problem of gun writers getting some of their opinions from other people!

Actually, you may have provided an idea for an article--one of the reasons I'm a Campfire member. So thanks again!

The underlining is mine.

What I get from this is that O'Connor definitely didn't know that the 35 was better. He didn't have sufficient experience with either to form an opinion. He likely said that after talking with other hunters or writers. How do you say, politely, that he may have been 'talking through his hat'? You gotta fill pages with ink.

It's also wordy. 'possibly a bit superior' sounds indecisive. A guess. Conjecture. He was unsure. Another indication that he was not sure. And "May be superior" would be my choice of words.

Far be it from me to correct O'Connor, but that's what I take away from what he wrote.



Again, I think he was expressing an opinion about something that he never actually tested. He may have said what he said based on conversations with others after 1965. That, or he figured a bigger diameter is better, and ran with it.

Your welcome. I look forward to reading the article if you do write it!

In The Hunting Rifle O'Connor includes the .35 in the list of cartridges he hunted deer with, but I can't recall ever reading where he actually killed anything with one. I also think I read somewhere that he briefly owned a Model 8 or 81, but can't for the life of me remember where.

Edit: Found it, also in The Hunting Rifle in the chapter titled, The Controversial Mediums, page 155. He bought a used Model 8 for $5 and there was $.63 in coin inletted into the stock.

I think it's safe to say that if a person was looking for advice about the 35 Rem, Mr. O'Connor would not have been the person to ask.

A knowledgeable man for sure, but no one can be an expert on every gun and cartridge.

Mr Redgwell, Steve, Esteemed Canadian gunwriter and proponent of the great .303, and all around good guy,

Do you have empirical evidence to substantiate your statement, colored red above, that "no one" is expert on every gun and cartridge?

I am fairly confident that with a quick perusal of today's posts, perhaps those of yesterday also, one might encounter a member or two who knows not only all that, but also more than the majority of scientists on climate, macro-economics, gastronomy, metallurgy, agronomy, and the quality of women seen in the basement.

I wish you a happy fall, hunting season, equinox, and whatever the next Canadian holiday happens to be.

Geno

PS, any new books/literature coming out on your website?

I always thought the 30-30 was relatively high on the highest selling reloading die list.

Whelen wrote similar wise words.

Dr. Henry Stebbins was pretty straight forward in his appraisal of the .30-30 and the .35 Remington in his books How to Select and Use Your Big Game Rifle and in Rifles A Modern Encyclopedia.
FcC. News in Practical Dope on the Big Bores gave both cartridges a careful look.

Nah, I don't have any proof of that.

I will say that there are times when I have to wade through waist high stag scat to get to the end of some posts.



I'm still waiting to get my 30-303 back from the gunsmith. It's beginning to worry me.

I'm playing with a 6x45mm rifle I built on a Savage action.

I'm trying to put up two radio antennas before the bad weather hits, and hunting season goes into high gear.

And as always, there's the marriage thing that throws a wrench into my plans. After 34 years, she hasn't learned a thing...

Steve, thanks for the reply and I understand the wading.

SO, the 30-303 will be like a 30-30 "stout". (30-30 magnum?)

Also understand the marriage thing, mine is moving (for work) again. 3rd time in 5 years or so. Probably gonna impact hunting season again. Oh well, gotta love 'em.

Enjoy the rest of 2016 and enjoy the rifle when it's done.

Geno

Townsend Whelen wrote of lever action rifles and the .30-30 in The Hunting Rifle, 1940,

Pg. 66: Nevertheless I do think that for the average sportsman who uses the rifle only for deer in the forested country of Eastern and North Eastern America, the lever action is the preferable weapon - that is he have better success with it.


Pg 253: Most of the deer I have shot with the .30-30 cartridge did not go 10 feet from where they were hit.



When we think of older subsistence hunters and men who hunted over long periods on foot or horseback we tend to forget they did not consider “Camp Meat” as game killed.
S. R. Truesdell wrote the Book: The Rifle And Its Development For Big Game hunting. This book compiles what the great hunters used, how long they used it and gives some thoughts on how they used them.

Here is the “Money Quote” for Steve:

Pg 254: I have always thought that the experiences of any one man, no matter how much he had hunted, were too short, and not varied enough to permit him to safely form an opinion from his experience alone that would be a reliable guide.

I think that ones own experience should be supplemented with the experiences as laid down in good books to be most useful of all, because the writer of a book usually has had very extended experience, while the writer of a magazine article may be merely a youngster just breaking into print after having killed his first deer and moose, and he often lacks the background and experiences of our older and greater hunters, men who have killed, not one or two, but hundreds of animals, we are struck by certain facts. The more experience a man has the more liable he is to use a cartridge which records shows to have an absolutely adequate killing power. We do not find experienced hunters using inadequate arms, nor do we find them using extremely powerful ones.

It would be interesting to try the Barnes 110gr TTSX in the .30-30. They are designed for the .300 Blackout and would be fairly speedy in the old round. Of course, not for tubular magazines.

Not saying these would somehow be better than a .30-40, or .308, but might extend the usefulness of a particular rifle.

Re. the 35 Remington vs 30/30. My uncle hunted a lot with a 35 (Remington Model 8) and it killed just fine but this on whitetails. It didn't seem to kill any better than a 30/30 and was not in the same class as my 303 or my other uncle's 30/06.
I've been messing with a 30/30 in a Ruger No. 1A over the last couple of weeks. If it was mine, I would AI it but it actually does pretty well the way it is. 150 spitzers at 2500+ makes it a different cartridge.
I also think the Winchester Model 64 is one of the best-porportioned rifles ever made. They are one where just carrying it makes for a good hunt whether or not you shoot at anything. GD

bangeye,

.30-30 dies sell pretty well because there are millions upon millions of .30-30's out there, but the percentage of .30-30 owners who handload is low--the reason .30-30 factory ammo is also way up there on the best-seller list, even though very few people use the cartridge for target or varmint shooting.

They're not all gun writer's but your post has generated some pretty interesting posts on the .30-30 so far.

Yeah, I was thinking that for a cartridge well over 120 years old it still generates a lot of talk – 89 posts so far.

My gunsmith has not answered my calls or emails. I hope he is well or on vacation.

I have another thread about the 30-303. It's the same as a 308. 2500 fps with a 180 gr. bullet. I was tired of using different diameter bullets. A 308 is merely a rimless 303.