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Plane crash

Hope the damages are minimal to life and limb; planes can be replaced.

Terrible that 5 are dead. I just hope wade wasn't 1 of them.

Sadly, no survivors. There could have been more with a 208 involved. Yikes!

Thoughts go out to the families that are just learning of their losses...

Damn, they've had a bad 'streak' this summer:

June crash

That pretty much sucks, end of story.

Condolences to family and friends.

Anxious to hear names...rough deal for everyone.

A buddy of mine guides for him...............

Damn. Was just at SBS. The counter guy there said it was RAVN planes. Guess not.

RAVN subs with Hageland...(Hageland is part of their RAVN -Connect deal.....'tis how we get home.)

I also have a buddy, Zach, who guides for him

I know Zack and his wife Lane.

Well, wade is okay. But condolances to the deceased. 1 from wasila and one from soldotna among the dead. How the flock does this happen in rural alaska?

Especially on a day like today.

My thoughts and prayers go to the families of those lost.

Mid air collisions boggle my mind. Such an infinite amount of space for 2 little specks to meet.

Yep, pretty nice out that way:

Russian Mission Weather

Might easily have involved a bit too much 'looking around' on such a nice day... easy to get distracted sometimes. A tragedy regardless.

Prayers on the way.

One would always think it almost impossible, with 2 airplanes that one or the other was paying attention to airspace.

But humans are not perfect and things do happen.

Its still more dangerous to drive to the airport rather than fly... IMHO.

Two days before moose season, big bull to look at. I can see how it could happen.

Oh I get that, just the odds still have to be high, really high. Even with both planes looking, you'd think out of 5 people...

But then I'm a turkey in a small plane, helping look for traffic...

And while ADS-B takes a chunk of cash for an owner to install, this is exactly what it was designed to prevent.

Sad all around.

That can cause the classic "moose stall" looking at a bull and forgetting to continue to fly the plane.

That's the conventional wisdom comparing commercial flying vs. POV.

Much higher in small fixed-wing aircraft than commercial. Don't know how it compares with POV travel though, but obviously closer if not exceeding it.

As many deaths are on the road every day, i doubt that POV flight is more dangerous than day to day driving. But of course there are not that many POV flights in the air as there are cars on the ground.

Cant relate one to another without the math and the math is a little bit of voodoo. The numbers are difficult to compare. Apples:oranges:bananas thing.

Google it. Lots of interesting articles.

Thats very true.

Still a shame about the crash.

I"ve flown with some good pilots in AK And we've sat tight a LOT, when we wanted to be flying...but thats the sign of a live pilot and live passengers. Still things happen.

I ain't dead yet, and it probably won't happen in a small plane, but I know plenty of people who have crashed and have flown with several who have met their demise via small plane. Yeah, it ain't risk free. Have flown many miles with Hageland and Ravn as well as others, and will again. The scariest guys I've flown with are the new ones to the state, and especially a few who have been rather cavalier.

of course it's a shame.

http://www.livescience.com/43448-air-turbulence-dangerous-injuries.html

is a pretty good article trying to make a comparison.

N of 1; been here over a decade. Can't say I know anyone personally who has died in a car crash here during that time but I know 7 who have rode out in plane crashes (4 of the 7 were pilot and passenger.) As 'bender suggested the stats is a wee bit complicated ... But commercial airline odds it ain't.
RIP to the souls involved in this one..

The big difference between planes and cars is most car crashes you survive, most plane crashes you don't.

Can't think of anyone I know here who has been killed in a plane crash, sadly have known a few to die in plane crashes.

I know some car related deaths but certainly more plane related. Also those planes held more than most cars do.

Now we know names...



ADN detail article

Good article for sure. Thats why we no longer fly without the belt on.. and certainly not in small planes. Still in a big one you have to get up to go to the can now and then.

I think this kind of got off course a bit, I was referring to overall, that driving is more deadly than flying.
In AK there are not that many roads so if you ran the numbers.. but even there, I suspect you have to have more road fatalities than flight fatalities. But if you take me literally when I say driving to the airport (only) is more deadly, i'm sure its not at least in AK.

Regardless it sucks as we've noted. Hopefully the report will give some info that can at least prevent another issue like this for someone.

Certainly when a plane crashes the odds of walking away alive are much less than a vehicle crash.( although here locally I've been in on maybe 4 plane crash landings( not mountain smacks or air to air) and not a single fatal, but can't recall the number of dead people I've pulled out of vehicles anymore...)

In the end we all take chances, and I would never stop flying due to fear. I'm going to try to enjoy it as much and as often as I can, life, and if it bites me, well, it was going to sooner or later.

You'd think that many eyes would help, but most folks don't do the turkey thing as a passenger. I've spent I don't know how many hours(easily over 1,000) as a passenger in small fixed and rotary wings at work. Believe me, far too many people are just brain dead as passengers. Jaw jacking, sleeping, or playing on their phones. Everything except paying attention to WTF is going on around them. Baffles me.

Like you, I prefer to up my odds, and have my head on a swivel, especially when in obvious choke points/high traffic areas. I also want a head set, and be in direct comm with the pilot. Couldn't tell you how many times I've spotted traffic or some such, that the pilot had yet to see. I'm not the least bit shy to let a pilot know about something I don't like. My life is more important to me, than his/her feelings/ego.

Hunting season is a high risk time in the air. Lots of pilots that only/mostly fly in the fall, planes lacking in the latest comm/nav gear, flying low/not announcing themselves on the radio at small airfields, game watching instead of flying. You name it, lots of stupid [bleep] goes on this time of year. To be clear, I'm not saying that's the case here at all.

Jeff

Is there not, in this day and age, some cheap transponder that could be required in all planes that could beep when another plan is within 2 miles? I have walkie talkies that work over three miles and cost $20.

There is. It only communicates with other planes that also have it. I'm betting one of these planes had it; the other didn't.

This article mentions it:

ADN detail article

Every time I fly puddle jumpers I'm constantly watching for traffic and birds. I tell my wife before flying that "if this is how the good Lord chooses to take me home he is truly a loving and merciful God". I can think of a lot worse ways to go than dying doing what I love in the most beautiful place in the world. I don't even care if they find my body. I'm ok with being nourishment for a predator since I'd eat them if needed. The circle of life.

Like death as in life, I'll be at peace wherever I lie.

Probably not a lot of PA18s with ADS-B.

Not yet anyway....

Any private pilots know approximate cost on an ADS-B?

Money is money and I"d like to know the appx cost too, but you'd think if it could be life/death, that it would sure have to be pretty expensive to not think about having it.

Capstan? Was new thing when I shot my first caribou years ago in AK. But I dont' think it showed other planes either. Think it was just fancy GPS showing your location.

ADS- B depending on whom you talk to and what you already have in your airplane, anywhere from 5 to 10K more or less! Stuff happens, pilots still are responsible for seeing and avoiding collisions!

5k I'd think everyone should have it no questions asked. 10K, its expensive but whats it worth to have another set of eyes....

If the government doesn't require it at some point, it would be nice to see insurance companies encourage it through incentives. I'm sure the government will be all over it however.

And then private pilots will complain about (more) excessive regulation "designed to regulate private plane ownership out of existence, at least for the common man."

Well it all depends on your panel and space, I know in a Super Cup there is not much room, and redesigning a panel for some of the older aircraft can be a bit on the cost prohibitive side! Its all moot ABS-B is set to be the norm in 2019, they are still working out the bugs and its not going to be the cure all some think will be! Look ever since the Wrights invented airplanes these sort of things have occurred! There was one in NYC a few years back between a PA-32-300 and an AS-350 A-Star helicopter, the helicopter chop off the left wing of the PA-32, it was something to see, somebody got it all on video tape! Mid airs are not very pretty, I know of a guy that walked away from one, he was flying a Huges 500c and was clipped by an airplane, he managed to put it down, wrecked the aircraft but he was pretty much alive, same guy flew the opening secquence of Magnum PI, he end up smacking a ridge in Hawaii, that one killed him! He was a good guy, flew with him for a bit 20 years ago!

$5K is a lot to most pilots. You go pay for it. If you have a G1000 panel it is about $15K to add it.

A lot of smaller older planes are only worth $15-$25K. You are talking 1/3 the value of the aircraft just to come into compliance. I think most are waiting until the last minute in hopes that a cost effective ADS-B system is developed for their airframe and avionics.

They are also a significant wait and balance issue and the ICAs require frequent inspections on some installations. Not a no-brainer by any stretch.

Let me know when you find a 15-25K super cub.... I"ll be over.

Well from what I understand ADS-B and how its going to work, it going to replace Radar in Air Traffic Control, or that is the plan! Radar provides Separation for Aircraft on Instrument flight Plans! How much and to what extent its going to help VFR only operations remain to be seen, its still on the pilot to see and avoid! A G-1000 will not fit a Super cup panel, thou a G-600 will, but then you have other issues of were to put the G-530's to run the G-600 and the sandby instruments required! You can get a New Cub Crafters Super Cub so set up, all you have to do is write a check for around 350K! Its a real issue since NexGen is going in to Effect in 2019, uncontrolled Airspace will still be uncontrolled, its when you have to go in to places like Anchorage or Fairbanks that will pose some problems, its not all worked out yet! The whole thing is geared toward the Instrument rated pilot flying on an instrument flight plan, my guess it will work pretty much like radar flight following for the VFR guys, you still have to look for and see the traffic! This along with the EPA messing will avgas, its making flying cost prohibitive for most! Yea the new boxes are something, but they are also a long learning curve too, the G-1000 has over 125 different function keys, and the short cut manual that has to be in the airplane is a good 500 pages long! And those cause other sorts of problems for the pilot too! There is no quick fix to mid air's and why they happen! They don't occurre to often but when they do its news!

Those must be down your way. I see them at around $70K and up up this way.

This one "only" $68K on Craigslist

yep, when trying to figure out if I want to fly and or can afford to up there... super cubs kept standing out, for the wife and I. Put a set of floats/skis and tundra tires and I about fell over that most ran 100K....

Like I said, next time you see a 15K super cub, I can have the engine replaced/upgraded etc.... I'll be right over with cash in hand assuming its flyable.

The ADS-B out mandate is 2020, I am going to start installing them this winter. $2-3K for the boxes, about the same in labor and other parts, cables and antennae.
ADS-B in is cheap and shows traffic and ground and space based radar weather. Shows up blue tooth on an I Pad or tablet, box plugs in to 12 v and costs $1-800.
System should be fully functional with everyone with an electrical system required to be transmitting position and ident data by 2020.
RIP. I have lost too many friends, and witnessed 3 plane crashes.
Keep the greasy side down.

jim

I don't think it should be mandatory, but as I said, cost of planes, flight time, training, etc... 5000 ish, I'd be a fool not to have it along in my plane.

Its one of those things, if in the scheme of a plane, 5K is too much, you are barely in the game anyway.

But the .gov mandates way to much crap as is...

Mandated for commercial use maybe... but not personal.

Just fancier, more useful transponders than everyone has already. Airborne Dependent Surveillance. Situational awareness.

They will be about as popular with most Alaskan pilots as micro chips in handguns that only let the registered owner fire them.

The problem, if I understand the way they work, is that they don't work with/interact with planes that aren't also equipped. Guessing the statistical risk of midair contacts (per unit of time) is weighted heavily toward operators not normally flying commercial routes.

Anything aviation related isn't cheap. There are plenty of aircraft that aren't transponder or gps equipped. There are pilots that think jumping in their plane is the same as jumping in their truck.

Well a transponder allows ATC Radar control the ability to Identify an individual aircraft- Most are altitude encoding, you are assigned a four digit code and the Control can see you and has your pressure altitude read out as well! It only works if you are High enough and with in Radar Coverage! The area in question, no radar coverage, its Class G uncontrolled Airspace- its still see and avoid responsibility is on the Pilot! Nothing would have prevented this, other than the pilots looking were they were going and broadcasting intentions in the area around that strip on 122.8! Accidents happen, and in Alaska because of the remoteness, give it a chance and it will bite you! I got almost 1000 hours in the Van, flown J-3's never got around to a Super Cub! No much panel in a J-3 and no electrical system!

The point of ADS-B is to get coverage and positional information outside of typical radar coverage to augment the old "see and avoid" of VFR with a TCAS like display and alerts of the likelihood of swapping paint.

If you look at the coverage map today (https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/) you can see coverage down to 500 feet. It will only get better.

Yes, it only works with 2 aircraft that are both equipped with the equipment but frankly in places like coastal Alaska where weather often squeezes planes off the normal odd/even + 500 rules. I had an opportunity to go to Anchorage to do some of the test flying years ago but it just didn't work out with some other stuff going on at the time.

Airplanes of any sort aren't cheap and maybe my experience bias's me towards having to tools in it to keep me from morting myself.

Stuff that keeps the pilot looking out the window, or looking in the right direction, instead of figuring is worthwhile.
Situational awareness. I have to remind local turboprop guys about non electrical aircraft, see and avoid.