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Gentleman,
I wanted to get your opinion on the following, since we discussed this a little while back in a separate thread. The thread mentioned, was regarding your preference about whether shooting your front or rear trigger first. Although I have most of the facts, please do not quote me, as we are all still trying to get to the bottom of the reason for the occurrence listed below.
As many here know, I shoot a Merkel in .500NE. A friend of mine recently bought a Heym in .500NE
Upon him choosing to fire the rear trigger first, the rifle double discharged and the rifle was subsequently damaged. Whether from the intense recoil, or the dropping of the rifle it is difficult to say.
He took it back to the store whereupon they contacted Heym. As I understand, Heym informed the store that this will happen to most double rifles when firing the rear trigger first. If I understood correctly,they mentioned Heym, Merkel and Verney. Heym has asked for the rifle to be sent back and they will repair the rifle. ( Cosmetic repairs)
What are your opinions about this? As far as I am concerned, you should be able to choose whichever trigger you wish to fire first, especially if you are carrying a soft solid combination for instance.
I have double discharged a 470NE before, and have no desire to double discharge any double ever again.
I'm thinking of loading a primed case, and then firing my left barrel a couple of times, just to see if the right barrel gets hit by the firing pin.
If you own a double, please state the make and caliber, and also whether you fire the front or rear trigger first and whether you have had this happened for the same reason.
Please discuss.
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Merkel 500NE - front trigger first. Will double every time if rear trigger pulled first.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Merkel 500NE - front trigger first. Will double every time if rear trigger pulled first. Very interesting. Thank you. Any idea why this would happen?
Last edited by KMGHuntingSafaris; 09/10/16.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Verney/Carron 577 Nitro, front trigger first, soft point, then rear trigger solid, never a double. 750 gr TSX's and Barnes solids 2075 fps
Alfred Schilling 500 Nitro, front trigger first, soft point, then rear trigger solid, never a double. [This rifle is a custon built on a Merkel action] 570 gr TSX's and Barnes solids regulate beautifully at 2168 fps.
RB Rodda 303 British, front trigger first, soft point, then rear trigger, also a soft point, this is an old top lever hammer rifle, it has never doubled even with both hammers cocked. 215 gr Woodleigh Weldcores at 2180 in the little Rodda.
Front trigger, right barrel, with a soft, rear trigger, left barrel with solids is how I trained myself on shooting and quick reloading a double, cartridges are arranged so in my belts too, couldn't and WONT change that procedure, I'd only make a mess trying.
Trump Won!
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Merkel 500NE - front trigger first. Will double every time if rear trigger pulled first. Very interesting. Thank you. Any idea why this would happen? It could be the intercepting sears have strict built in guidelines they have to follow.
Trump Won!
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A couple of points. First, Merkels have a horrible reputation for doubling, I know of at least fourteen separate and distinct occurrences. Second ANY double worth it's salt should have ZERO problems in selecting which barrel to shoot first. Why? because it affords the hunter the opportunity to load a soft and a solid and depending on the game (my opinion solids should only be used on elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land). My Verney Carron has no issue with discharging either barrel as I choose. Lastly, my muscle memory is to always fire the front trigger first and my VC is not equipped with intercepting sears.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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On all doubles (shotguns) I've work on (Never worked on a double rifle...) the separate triggers are separate firing mechanisms, As stated that allows one to select which barrel fires. On a single trigger double, there a cam which repositions during recoil to select the second barrel.
If pulling the rear trigger causes both hammers to release, seems like a simple mechanical fix, where the rear trigger is contacting the front trigger to lift it.
I realize it is very quick, but on a double shot, are both barrels firing simultaneously or is there a slight lag in the second barrel going off?
Again, I have never worked on a double rifle, but I've been inside MANY double shotguns, to the best of my knowledge the firing mechanisms are the same (or similar); I just can't believe a manufacturer hasn't corrected the problem, especially in this day of law suits.
And these zombies line up and eat from the media’s trough
Cowards CANNOT be free. Nor should they be.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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I never have shot or even seen a double rifle. In shotguns I do prefer the double trigger but can't tell you why. My one with the double trigger was a Charles Daley, my son has it now. As I recall, the front trigger sit's to the left side of the action and the rear trigger to the right. By pulling the front trigger first you go naturally to the rear trigger, front trigger has you set for that. pulling the rear trigger first, I've never done it will require you take your finger out of the trigger guard to move to the front trigger, that really must slow thing's down if you need a second shot quickly. Imagine having a lion charge and needing two quick shot's, ya thing letting go of the rear trigger to find the front trigger is gonna work that well. So, as I said I have never fired a double trigger rifle but on the double trigger shotguns, it was always the front trigger first. i suspect that a left hander would get used to the front trigger first, he could simply slide off the front trigger and stick his finger in a ways and have the rear trigger. No requirement for your finger to come out of the trigger guard. it doesn't take long and you'll find you never even think about moving you trigger finger at all. As for blowing up if you do pull the rear trigger first, that should not happen I would think. But it is what it is!
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A couple of points. First, Merkels have a horrible reputation for doubling, I know of at least fourteen separate and distinct occurrences. Second ANY double worth it's salt should have ZERO problems in selecting which barrel to shoot first. Why? because it affords the hunter the opportunity to load a soft and a solid and depending on the game (my opinion solids should only be used on elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land). My Verney Carron has no issue with discharging either barrel as I choose. Lastly, my muscle memory is to always fire the front trigger first and my VC is not equipped with intercepting sears. Jorge, this happened on a Heym, so as far as I am concerned, they are certainly worth their salt. Heym claims that this should be expected when firing the rear trigger first and deny that there is anything wrong with the rifle. They said the same will happen firing the rear trigger first on a Verney or Merkel, which I called BS on. As far as I am concerned, the shooter should have the option of decision on which trigger to fire first, without any double discharge. I agree, I also shoot the front trigger first.
Last edited by KMGHuntingSafaris; 09/11/16.
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Double trigger shotguns allow you to shoot either barrel first as this gives you an instant choice of choke. Shotguns don't double, regardless of which trigger is pulled first. A double rifle should allow one to pull either trigger first without the rifle doubling. I don't give a damn what Heym says.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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A couple of points. First, Merkels have a horrible reputation for doubling, I know of at least fourteen separate and distinct occurrences. Second ANY double worth it's salt should have ZERO problems in selecting which barrel to shoot first. Why? because it affords the hunter the opportunity to load a soft and a solid and depending on the game (my opinion solids should only be used on elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land). My Verney Carron has no issue with discharging either barrel as I choose. Lastly, my muscle memory is to always fire the front trigger first and my VC is not equipped with intercepting sears. Jorge, this happened on a Heym, so as far as I am concerned, they are certainly worth their salt. Heym claims that this should be expected when firing the rear trigger first and deny that there is anything wrong with the rifle. They said the same will happen firing the rear trigger first on a Verney or Merkel, which I called BS on. As far as I am concerned, the shooter should have the option of decision on which trigger to fire first, without any double discharge. I agree, I also shoot the front trigger first. Heym is wrong. I can't put it any simpler than that. I've posted this query over on African Reloading in their Double Rifle section where there are FAR more knowledgeable folks than me, but there's just no way Heym (or someone at Heym) are correct.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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I shoot a .450/400 Jeffery's. I can shoot either barrel without worry of a double discharge. When it comes to British doubles, I am 100% in the same camp as Jorge. For more than 100 years hunters have had the option to load a solid in one bbl and a soft point in the other for maximum flexibility. Why a well made Continental double would have problems and why the maker would tolerate such is beyond me. I will say that German Customer service isn't what we expect. They are right, you are an imbecile not intelligent enough to question them. I can see Heym dismiss a touchy question. I'll use this post to illustrate: I hate to interrupt the personal insults, which can be so entertaining at times, but I do have a customer service observation.
I have found US owned and based companies are generally easier to work with than foreign - especially European owned and operated companies.
I see this as an extension of the European Class System that remains. German culture has a long tradition of not questioning authority. French and British culture has those in authority with a strong sense of superiority. All this works against solving customer problems.
"We are always correct. Our products are always perfect. The customer is not smart enough to tell us our business".
Case in point, a while back I was on safari in RSA. I was hunting with my close friend and PH Rick van Zijl. He had a German client in camp, a very proper businessman from Frankfurt. Rick took him to sight in his rifle, and he returned from the range with a gash over his right eye where the scope cut him. Rick handed me the guy's rifle to mount, a Blaser in .375 H & H and I found it to have only about 1/2" of eye relief for me. I had to back off to get a view down his Swaro. Rick was trying to convince Hans to let him remount his scope.
"Nein! I had the scope mounted by Kettner, it is correct!"
Kettner is a well known German gun shop in the Griffin and Howe mode. No amount of arguing would convince Ol' Hans that his scope was mounted wrong.
Rick took Hans off the first morning and they returned for lunch with a bigger gash over Hans eye and copious blood dripping from it. Cuts to the Obicularis Oris muscle around the eye
open like a fan, which are why boxers have such a problem with them.
I kindly numbed Hans up and put 5 sutures in to close him. I usually carry a suture kit on safari. Somebody is always slashing something. Then both Rick and I tried once again to convince Hans to let us remount his scope.
"Nein, Kettner mounted it and it is correct!"
I speak just enough German to get by, so in his native tongue I asked him
"Wird Kettner Ihr Auge morgen behandeln, wenn ich gehen?"
Which means "Will Kettner treat your eye tomorrow after I leave?"
An amazing transformation occurred. First, Ol' Hans nearly crapped his pants when an American addressed him formally in his own language. Europeans have a stereotype that none of us can speak anything other than American (sort of true). Secondly, the logic of the situation finally got him to drop his defenses, and he agreed to let Rick remount his scope.
The next day he sighted back in and was thrilled that he wasn't getting banged by the scope, had a better field of view, etc. Hans become more familiar with us after that and related that he bought the rig from Kettner, had them mount the scope, and he shot it in their indoor range and the scope banged his eye. He pointed this out to the gunsmith who indignantly told him that he had done the measurements precisely, and the fault was in the manner in which Hans mounted the rifle and that was that! End of discussion.
That is European customer service.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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Hatari, thanks for chiming in.
Jorge, thanks for posting this over on AR. I will follow it there as well.
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Gentleman,
I just want to make the following points clear:
1. I fully agree that it has got to be a problem with the rifle. I can't see how this can be normal.
2. I also agree that the triggers should be your choice. My muscle memory shoots the front trigger first as well.
I posted this thread simply because of the response from Heym, and wanted to get your opinion.
Appreciate your input. Will relay these opinions/facts to the owner of the rifle in question.
Last edited by KMGHuntingSafaris; 09/11/16.
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Merkel 500NE - front trigger first. Will double every time if rear trigger pulled first. Very interesting. Thank you. Any idea why this would happen? Two reasons - no interceptor on the front trigger sear (I understand that later models have interceptors on both sears) and the front trigger is articulated (hinges forward under spring tension so it doesn't damage your finger in recoil when the rear trigger is fired) and has a lighter let-off than the rear trigger. When the sears are cocked, if I push the front trigger forward and let it snap back it will trip that sear.
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk. That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied. Well?
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Got an email from Chris Sells from Heym. He has assured me that this is certainly not the norm for a Heym double rifle. Also asserted that it IS entirely up to the shooter to decide which trigger he wishes to fire first.
He has asked for me to put him in contact with the owner in order to have the rifle fixed.
Thanks for the comments gentleman. Appreciate your input.
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Glad I could help. Let us know how it turns out.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Marius, keep us informed. Hats off to you for looking into this and posting it.
"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
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I agree that a double should have the flexibility to fire either barrel at the user's choice, especially a shotgun. That is kind of the whole point with a shotgun. It may not be the case with a rifle. What I have run into is this. My current Double rifle, and probably my last, is a Frantz Sodia in near new condition. It is an O&U, I know it is not really a double rifle to many of you and you probably won't like the caliber either. It is a 348 Winchester.
With O&U you are recommended to fire the under barrel first to lessen the wear on the action. Something to do with the angle of forces based on the location of the hinge pin and lockup. I haven't measured this, I'm just taking a very experienced gunsmith's advice. If you shoot the under barrel first, front trigger, no problem. The only time I fired the over barrel first it doubled. I measured the trigger pull of the under barrel and it was significantly lighter and crisper than the over barrel was. Wondering if wear was causing this, I checked the engagement surfaces and observed new looking surfaces. It appears that at least this rifle was made that way. I'm thinking to make that first shot count as this is more of a stalking rifle than dangerous game gun.
The side by side doubles that I have owned and that I have shot that were owned by others never doubled and these ranged from smokeless to black powder and from 9.3x74 to 8 bore.
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Just for the record, I own a Krieghoff .470 NE and have fired several hundred factory loads from it. I practice relentlessly in the months preceding a safari and of course, use the rifle during the actual safari. I ALWAYS fire the rear trigger (left barrel) first. The rifle has NEVER doubled.
First, the rifle has an extended LOP and the rear trigger falls more readily to hand. Second, I am concerned that if my finger slips off the front trigger during recoil, it may bump the rear trigger on it's way back, resulting in an AD.
Personally, I would not own a double rifle that doubled.
My Krieghoff and I have hiked many trails together. It saved my life during an elephant charge in 2010. It prints two Barnes monolithic solids within an inch at 50 yards. I wouldn't trade it for anything, including a best grade London double.
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