Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Barnes TTSX concerns for NE black bear..

So last week I successfully tagged an average 130lb (dressed) New England black bear. The shot that was given to me for a split second was one with the bear slowly walking away around 80 yards looking back at me in the wind carrying my scent despite the cover/attractant scents I was using to combat this situation. I instinctivively shot to drop the bear in its tracks by lodging a 150gr Barnes TTSX in a Kimber Adirondack .308 between its shoulder blades, essentially leaving him immobile and dead in his tracks. However, the shot freehand pulled left 2-4" outside the intended area and punched a clean hole through his left lung leaving me tracking him for a good 1/8th mile through the thickest, muckiest terrain I've ever experienced, in the rain, all after the well known death moan 30 seconds after the shot.

I was surprised how little damage the round made in this circumstance, however I'm asking you all if I used the correct bullet choice, or should I opt for something different for this species?

Classic mono performance.

Lead cores destruct tissue much better.

The never ending debate continues

A buddy shot one about 200 pounds with a 340 Weatherby and 210 Partition up in Maine, a hair too far back. It went about the same distance.

Sounds like a difficult angle,and tough shot especially where you catch one lung and you can expect them to travel a bit after a hit like that. I have used mostly Partitions and Bitterroots on mine....no problems.

You can't fool a bear's nose....

How do you like the Adirondack?

Are those 1-12"?

220 yards tracking job on a bad shot placement single lung shot? I don't think there is a bullet performance issue here. Some other bullets would have led to a lost animal.

An animal with one good lung can go a long ways.

Poor shot placement and the HORSESHIT about monos as the usual suspect comes out every time...

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+1





Tis a poor workman who blames his tools.

Should have used the 130 TTSX. That said I have leveled big black bears out to 325 yards with the 168 TTSX OUT OF A 300 Rum. You really need speed to get the TTSX to work best. I doubt any bullet would have faired much better in your scenario

So what I got out of that was the OP pulled the shot, missed the spine, took out a lung, had to track in rain, but still killed and recovered the bear. I'd say the problem wasn't in the bullet, but the shot placement. Rushed shots rarely have the immediate desired results.

I've not shot a lot of Barnes or other mono metal bullets, but I have friends who do. I also use them in my daughter's deer rifles just to manage the recoil for her by using lighter bullets than I'd use in a cup-n-core bullet. I have faith in the Barnes bullets and their effectiveness on game.

I still love the Nosler Partition and if I want a bullet that I know will get the job done every time I still reach for that one first. I know it's not the sexiest bullet, or the best long range option out there but it simply works well at the ranges I usually shoot. I used the Partition to secure my black bear in my avatar in one shot, but I had better shot presentation and was able to punch through both front shoulders. While I hastily took the shot at 200 yards, I wasn't offhand (off shooting sticks) and the bear didn't know I was there yet.

Here he is in larger pictures:

At typical New England shot distances, I don't see an issue with a C&C type bullet(Hornady, Nosler, Core lokt, take your pick), especially a 180 RN which is going to open quick and do alot of damage. As for bullet failure in this case, I agree with the others, poor shot placement can not be called bullet failure

One shot lung shot kill on a soft skinned animal, I don't see any problems here.

You only got one lung and it ran a little but you heard death moan within 30 seconds so it obviously did some real good damage somehow that you are not seeing. Again, you should be tickled pink with the outcome.

There IS that...of course.

It's not uncommon, after a shot, to second guess a bullet. The reality is that there is no single bullet which is always the best choice for the circumstances. However, it sounds like your bullet and your shot did the job about as quickly and humanely as any could have. "Shocking" an animal to the ground where it stands, regardless the projectile, caliber, or power is nowhere near as reliable as making a solid CNS hit.

It's very possible that a Partition or Interlock might have dropped the animal with less tracking, but it's almost certain that the next shot you take will be a completely different set of circumstances too. But nothing drops animals faster than breaking major bones, and nothing beats hard, expanding monolithics for breaking big bones.

Barnes work great when they hit bone. Soft tissue wise I would look to a 165 Ballistic Tip or 165 Hornady BTSP.

On the plus side you still have a dead bear! Congrats.

I shot a caribou with a 375 Rum using 270gr TSX killed it deader than hell. End of Story

One 225 gr TTSX (338-06, i.e., lower velocity) broadside low and behind the shoulder and this guy just dropped. A 100 yard shot. Bullet whizzed through with substantial destruction.



Same with this guy though quartering towards. A 150 yard shot.



We used the 200 gr TTSX with the 358 Win (slow again) in Africa in 2012 on all manner of game. All dropped at the shot.

Thanks for all the input fellas. I see free hand shooting drills using cup & core bullets in my soon future ✔️

I love it! The ergonomics fit me perfect, it's accurate, and a handy light rifle when hiking through the deep NH woods I hunt. My Adirondack shoots MOA or better, with minimal change of POI using 150gr Remington Core-Lokts, Hornady American Whitetail, Barnes Vortex, Winchester PP, and Winchester Balistic tip ammo.

Reloading will show more promise off the bench but I'll settle for factory loads until my house remodeling project is complete

Bullshit!

I venture to guess you have looked at few examples of either...

Humans are rare in that the lungs are each in their own sac, while most other critters have both lungs in one sac. A single lung being collapsed gets both very quickly...

Except for deer. Apparently they never received that memo. Some have been killed with one lung that was taken out the previous hunting year

Elk too

Critters can do amazing things, especially under stress... but surviving a collapsed lung for long would be right near the very top of the heap. Likely not impossible for critters that may not be tested hard physically. The vast majority could never do it.

An elk surviving a collapsed lung is much harder to accept than a deer...

They don't survive a collapsed lung because it doesn't collapse. You can stick a broad head through one lung on a bull and he can survive. Because the other one continues to work.

Yeah, that's it! The bull moose I shot last week with a 30-06 only lost a single lung... he must be running around out there still... or not.

Collapse is a relative term and relates to getting enough gas between the pleura and the lung to eliminate expansion of the lung. Yeah, they feel spongey, but gases behind reduce/eliminate inhalation.

Once again you are running on extremely limited comprehension and an obvious lack of experience.

i don't remember saying anything about moose

How many elk you field dressed?

I don't know about elk from my own firsthand experience, but I do know that moose lungs (and caribou)sometimes collapse, sometimes don't. It seems to depend on whether air can get into the chest cavity or not (or other stuff if the diaphragm happens to be compromised .) Regardless, lung shots generally bleed well enough to cause drowning at a minimum.

I would be very curious about the exact circumstances that would allow a 'deer' of any shape or size to heal from such a wound, though I don't doubt that some have.

Number of animals dressed in the field is not a comparison you want to make, particularly if you bring variety into the picture... this started with bear and I have done a very large number of blacks, browns, and even grizzlies... deer and caribou, a huge number... elk and moose, a lot... sheep and goats, a lot... hundreds in total...

But there is a huge difference in experiences equaling hundreds of critters and one critter hundreds of times.

Too many variables involved to make conclusive statements for every situation. If one lung collapses but the chest entry and exit wounds close up from blood, hair, dirt, etc fast enough the animal might be able to get the other lung working and survive. I think this would be rare, however.

Shot placement is the only evidence needed to solve every "mystery"as far as wounded critters or tracking is concerned.

Problem is, a given shot in a given location is not always recognized as such, or accurately assessed. And then you hear tales of bullet failure, the gun being off, the chambering not being powerful enough, yada, yada, yada......

For the OP, yes I think you would have been more satisfied with the bullet performance from a Nosler Partition in said situation.

You experienced classic mono performance. If you didn't like it, then switch to something else.

Thank you sir. I was boggled as to the clean entry and exit the bullet made.

Take this with a grain of salt as I have only shot one animal with Barnes ttsx. It was a bear too iver bait probably 250 pounds live. Shot with my 338 win mag. First [bleep] punched through the chest breaking the off shoulder. Second shot broke his neck as he tried to run off. Your right the exit holes aren't big but the blood damage in that bears chest was impressive. His chest cavity was turned to soup

My hunting buddies and I have used the 130g TTSX from a .308 at about 3,000 fps+ with great success on deer and pigs. Velocity really helps mono-bullets perform.

I wish I had the same results damage wise on this one. Hardly anything was jellied up or damaged. Just a clean pass through like a broadhead would do. im going to run the same load for the upcoming deer season. Better shot placement on my part will hopefully give me a quick kill and little damage to the edible meat I desire. Thanks for all the input fellas.

The damage that I have seen in moose hit in the lungs with 225 gr TSX in 338 and 270 gr TSX 375 is consistent with the bold. The lungs looked as though a sizable portion had been placed in a blender. I use only the TSX in 338 and 375, but will at some point give the 225 gr TTSX a shot in the 338. I have no complaints at all with the TSX in 338 Win Mag or 375 Ruger, actually admiration.

To settle this, please post the post-mortem picture of the bullet.

100% agree. I've killed my share with monos, just know I have a nice tracking job ahead of me when I take the shot. I'd use partitions next time if it was me.

Approximately 660 feet (220yards) of tracking. Combined with the fact all 4 feet seemed to be working, doubt if another brand would have made much difference in how far it would have gone.

All cheerleading aside. I don't think anyone with much expiereance can argue that lead and copper bullets kill quicker than Monos.
The only reason I run monos is because of the concern of feeding my young children lead.

Many times bullet choice is person preference and experience. If a bullet doesn't perform the way you want, chances are you won't use them again.

Personally, I've had cup and core failures and great luck with Barnes monos, so Barnes are what I use.

As to the OP, can't blame the bullet if I pull the shot. I've trailed deer farther than that bear after double lung shots with C&C bullets.

130 gr TTSX usin TAC from Sako mannlicher carbine 20" barrel. Pass through. Bear weighed 250 lbs.

.350 Rem magnum, 200 gr TSX. Caught this one. Bear weighed 350 lbs.

Well the good news is the OP got his bear. About the only game taken with the Barnes TSX by me were 5 of the 6 elk take the last few years. Rifle was a custom Mauser in .35 Whelen shooting the 225 gr. TSX at 2710 MV. Two of the elk were DRT and the rest needed a finisher but were completely unable to go anywhere. The Sixth elk was shot with a Nosler 165 gr. Accubond at around 2900 FPS and change. Bullet hit at the short ribs and took out the left lung. Elk ran about 30 feet and collapsed.
I've done a small bit of playing with the 100 gr. TSX in .25 caliber and 120 and 140 gr. in 7MM but haven't found the accuracy sweet spot with those yet. Lots of decent velocity but can't find the accuracy I want. I'll keep working on those.
The first elk I shot with he 225 gr. TSX was a miss at 75 yards and a hit at just about 150 yards. At the hit, the elk stopped and dropped just as if it's run into a brick wall. That was my first ever kill with the Whelen and yes, I was impressed. Dunno what my thoughts will be on the .257 Bob and 7x57/.280 Rem. will be with the TSX bullet, that is if I ever get decent accuracy from them.
Neever have shot a bear but if I do I'll take the Whelen.
Paul B.

My thoughts are the TTSX performed as it was designed to. And that is to drill deep. The way they drill deep is by being more stoutly constructed than cup/core bullets and hence retaining near 100% of their weight. And consequently you get a smaller diameter wound channel. I can't think of a better bullet when the muzzle velocity exceeds 3000 fps and or when you are hunting large game and need deep penetration.

But for smaller large game, I'd say a cup core bullet or dropping to a 130 gr TTSX would be a better choice. YMMV

If the impact velocity gets much above 3000 fps the petals shear off and the wound channel volume is even smaller. I know this goes against the Campfire mantra of "mo speed,mo betta", but it's what I have noticed in using them.
Best advice I can give is keep impact velocity between 3000fps on the high end and 2000fps on the low.

Thanks for all the input and advice fellas. I understand that my shot on the bear was poor and not what I intended, it happens to everyone. I was curious if my bullit choice was good/poor based on my examination of the internals of the bear and the velocities the Kimber Adirondack was producing with a 18.5" barrel. I'm not sure how much velocity I lost using this rifle as I do not have a chrono available.

After further review at the range placing a cold bore group on target yesterday using the same load, my group pulled roughly 3" to the left. This was a valuable lesson for me when it comes to the Kimber 84m action series of rifles. They heat up fast.. I simply didn't give my rifle enough time to cool while zeroing, finding an accurate load, all while firing 3 round groups spaced 5 minutes apart.

Good news is I recovered the bear, found that Federal
Premium 150gr. Nosler Partition factory loads shoot better than the Barnes Vor-TX factory loading in my rifle, and that my rifle is now properly zeroed for the round I've found accurate & fit (cold bore).

On a side note, my newly acquired Kimber 84m Hunter in .308 shoots Barnes Vor-TX 130gr. and Federal Fusion 150gr. in the .5-.8 range opposed to the .8-1.5 range with the Adirondack (also in .308).