Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Customs vs. Factory

I doubt either Blasers or Tikkas look great from borescope because of how they foul. But, they tend to shoot the first shot into the group from a cold barrel, which is the most important thing to me--above both feeding and overall accuracy.

I would say the pre 64 M70 has a more reliable trigger and extractor than a Tikka. CRF bolt, firing pin, and trigger are easily strippable/field serviceable in comparison, and no bolt stop or plastic shroud. Plus you don't have to worry about losing your recoil lug when removing the stock It is just less prone to getting clogged up or frozen, and more easily fixed if it did.

The Tikka may have a better feeling trigger, and may even outshoot it also, but no way it rates higher for dependability under field conditions IMO.

Any way, didn't mean to get sidetracked.

Use the rifles that make you happy. I have factory rifles I would never part with for a custom, or even change a thing on. If the Tikka or Blaser do it all for you, then no need to change a thing. I slapped my Sako Finnlight in a McMillan and love it, but probably could have loved it just as it was......

Twice Ive arrived at my friends ranch in Wyoming to se his Rem 700 trigger so clogged with gumbo that the rifle would not longer cock and fire; in Maine years back I saw a snowstorm with ice and melting snow shut down a pair of Rem 700's. Froze up the safeties and triggers. My pre war M70 endured the same conditions and shrugged it all off.

I am no fan of enclosed trigger mechanisms for BG rifles.

Recently sold one rifle that started life as a pre 64 M70 FW 270,in a Brown Precision PoundR that dates back to the late 80's or thereabouts. It's been all over the Continent 2-3 times, killed a lot of game. This is the third barrel. Cant recall any snafus despite years of hunting and a few thousand rounds.

I won't call it a "custom" rifle; just a factory. or "parts" gun.



This is new within the last 7 years or so; pre 64 FW 270 in McMillan bedded for me by Redneck. Been flawless so far. Really just a factory rifle but pre 64 received a lot more "hands on" attention back then than rifles do now. The way some feed/function I swear no human hands ever touched them. I trust skilled craftsmen more than CNC machines to make things work perfectly.

Pretty much perfection by my standards in a BG rifle. A M70 Classic with all the bad stuff taken away by Gene Simillion. Shoots great and functions perfectly.

To get it to work like a pre 64 M70 all he had to do was toss the extractor for a "real one" , replace box and follower with items form Darcy Echols shop and do the machining "trick moves"... install a Krieger barrel, etc etc. Stock is Echols Legend.

In any event it has never needed a thing ever since it was delivered a few years ago. But Simillion is one of those smiths who knows how to make a rifle function perfectly and that's what you pay for.

I will mention....in passing again...that pre 64 M70's generally have never needed that kind of attention IME.

Some folks have opined they've had years to weed out the good and bad pre 64's. I can't agree,having owned dozens. I've found the quality of function and accuracy pretty consistent and far above that of any M70's that followed . And better than most any factory rifle I can think of.(Please, no lectures about how the new ones are "better". The Classic certainly never was, and the FN rifles have not been around long enough to prove a thing. Talk to me in 50 years.....






Something Old School that works. Len Brownell custom on a pre 64 M70 action. 7 RM.It will go bang every time you ask it to.

Bob - I'd agree if you owned dozens BEFORE 1964 and found them all to be excellent. I never took you to be that old. Maybe I am wrong.

The dozens owned since (if you're not ingwe's age) are survivors - guns that shot well, were put together right and not incorrectly repaired or butchered at some point between manufacture and that's why you bought them.

What I was trying to say is that of all the guns made today - the ones left over 50+ years from now will most likely all shoot and feed and be rather nice. Those made today that suck - simply won't be around to purchase as an "original". Similar to pre-64's

Rifle darwinsim might be a term to use....

I believe that the pre-64's you've been buying were the best representation of those that were made because they were good enough to keep 52 years and if they weren't they were either fixed, turned into projects or scrapped.

Eventually all you have left are the top performers. It's a statistical impossibility that all M70's from 1936-1963 were produced as well as the ones you've owned or were retained.

Teal I am not that old.....

In 1964 I was only 14.

I had no idea those Ive owned were anything special....they were bought from stores or private individuals. And mostly from here in New England. Just run of the mill rifles and the most I ever did to them (other than those that I bought for the actions which were mostly those discards you're referring to) was restock with a good synthetic.

They are remarkably durable although anything can break eventually. I am fussier about what I will buy now.

But what always impressed me about them was the feeding/function and how reliable they were. The barrels were always pretty good and even if they did not always produce 1/2" groups,they were still good shooters.

I would like to have someone start a thread entitled "Tell Us About Your pre 64 M70 Failures and Malfunctions".

I have never seen one. Of course it would have to be started by someone old enough to know.

Here's another that Ive owned a couple years and just got it scoped the other day and took to the range. First indications are it will be like all the others. It's a 30/06 FW...just another rifle.

I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over t years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.


Oops here it is!

I'm sure they were - I've nothing against them at all. The only pre-64 I've ever used was a M94 that my dad bought for 200 dollars and the guy threw in a Stihl chainsaw that ran for 25 years after the deal.

Still has the rifle and it's 98% condition.

I have never handled one of their guns but I suspect as you point out about Simillion that someone like Echols or Simillion would build a rifle with few bugs. I just have so far avoided spending that kind of money on a single rifle, though.

I too believe the pre-64s were the best of the M70s, but to my point, those rifles, which are really nice, have been worked on to get them where they're at in those pictures. New barrels and stocks and if your gunsmiths are like the ones I have used, you then work the bugs out of the upgrades, which is what I have tired of doing.

In theory, the M70 trigger is better, but I have not had any problems with enclosed triggers but I keep my rifles clean and have not hunted a lot in freezing rain. The last time I did hunt in those conditions, though, I was carrying a Mauser with a Timney with no issues.

Nice guns, Bob.

I guess if someone wanted a M-70 tweaked to perfection, no holes barred and had a healthy checkbook, there's always the Echols Legend. D'Arcy really goes thru them, fixing any and everything that could ever go wrong. They feed flawlessly, the bolt handle is pinned, OEM extractor replaced, etc, etc. Of course with a pre-64, you don't need to pin the handle, replace the extractor; they feed pretty well...

One could tweak a M-70 himself, buy a good, late model pickup with the difference...

Or just get a pre-64, upgrade with an Echols Legend stock and while we're at it, a Krieger barrel wouldn't hurt...

DF

DF: That's the formula....

Some guys like mass produced "stuff".

Send a Classic action to Simillion, Penrod, or Echols. You'll get good stuff back. Yes they cost more but who needs all these duplicitous rifles anyway?

If I may say - I believe that was AD's approach.

1 or 2 really good rifles - hunt with the rest.

DMD there is nothing in the rifle world simpler than pre 64 barrel and action in a Brown precision or McMillan.

One left hand pal of mine did it recently with a FW 270. He's an accomplished match shooter who shoots all the good places...said recent;y it's the best factory rifle he's ever owned.

The Simillion is a Classic action (or at least it was until he got through with it. Took lots of work. I provided the action. It cost me about $6k. Like anything else there is custom and there is "custom" and they are not created equal.

The FW in the McMillan Edge is straight factory...no tweaking required. All Lee did is bed it. It's killed 5 bucks in its short career.

I really like the looks of that one, Bob.

I have to somewhat disagree with the rifle Darwinism theory when it comes to pre 64 M70s. I just don't feel that many, if any, needed "weeding out". Overall quality was known to be exceptional. The rifles functioned as designed, and they may not all have been tack drivers but the general concensus is that they shot just about any ammo of the time acceptably well. Which is what my experience with them has been. In my 1953 30-06, for example, I cannot find a 165 gr. bullet it won't shoot into 1.5" or better. And it does same with the only 2 150 and 180gr. bullets I have tried. Same goes for my bud's 30-06 circa 1954. Not tackdrivers, but more than accurate enough for reliably taking big game.

I now kinda wish I had kept more of my M70s. I recently sold my 7 mag, 300 mag, and custom 270 WSM. But the one I really wish I had kept was a Featherweight in 308. However, my 1957 M88 in 308 always seemed to jump it's place in line when hunting time rolled around. The Win 88 IS a tackdriver, and has needed no "refinements" ( the trigger on mine is better than most)........

I agree with the OP. I've owned seven customs from various makers and have had "issues" with four of them.

As to Blasers, my R93 has multiple barrels. The .30/06 and 9.3 x 62 barrels produce consistent half inch groups with factory Federal brand ammunition. The .300, .338 and .375 barrels exhibit "average" (1.5 ") accuracy.

Factory rifles have tended to perform well for me right out of the box. In recent years I've only had one that could be classified as a "dud".

The advantage of a custom rifle is that it is assumed you get the exact features and specifications that you want and hopefully, top quality components and workmanship. That assumption sometimes lack validity.

2much: I guess my experiences are about like yours. Although i did notice an up tick in accuracy from those rifles once properly bedded in a good synthetic stock, with hand loads. I have had some that shot as well as Kriegers.

I don't expect everyone to like the pre 64's the way I do, but the topic seemed to be how to get a good custom or a factory rifle that performs well all the time. What I posted is my solution and has been for many years.

That 06 has only been shot a few times with blue box Federal 150's. No handholds yet.

Refill the brass with 52 grains of IMR4064 and a 150 and see what happens.

In my 88 the first bullets I tried were Federal Classic 150gr. blue/gray box. They shot into 3/4" and I was very happy and hunted with them. Finally I decided I would handload and it if it would do better. 45.5 gr. IMR 4895 under a 150 Accubond cut group size in half! I was shocked. My 88 is truly a 3/8"-1/2" rifle. 2 Years ago, I ran Federal MSR 150gr. Fusions through it. Guess what? 1/2-5/8" groups. 3 ammos, nothing over 3/4". Not bad for an old gun.

I just finished loading 150gr. Accubonds over 45.5gr. 4895 last night. CCI 200 primers, in that used Federal brass.

Managed to pick up some 4064 and 4350 yesterday. I am about to go buy 2 jars of 4895 after lunch......

Wow!

Now, don't ya reckon those were some pretty slick actions after 100-150K rounds...

DF

For clarity, that was an '06 load I mentioned.





I use several 308 deer loads, but my current favorite is 45.5 grains of H4895 under a 150 grain Ballistic Tip. It produces about 2830 fps from the 22" barrel of my 700 LVSF, grouping below moa for five shots.

Yes. My bad for throwing the 308 into the mix