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I have bought a few customs and big name guns and a lot of factory guns. Interestingly enough, my customs, envisioned for some specific purpose, have generally let me down. You get them and there are always problems, most often requiring my own work and in most instances a second or third gunsmith because the builder never screws up. In my experience, I would say average accuracy and function of customs are below the level of factory guns, though I have never had an an Echols or something in that price range. Also, some smiths seem to build accurate and some build functional but I have not found the one that builds both. Problems I have experienced include feeding, multiple broken bolt stops on a builder designed action, poor accuracy, badly cut chambers, bedding problems, special recoil reducing stocks that make everybody that fires the rifle exclaim "Wow, that kicks hard!", etc. I have not commissioned a custom that did not have some combination of these issues and required work and in most cases $$$$ to correct.

With that said I have found two or three factory rifles that are darn close to perfection without much work and are as follows:

-Tikka T3-Plusses: accurate, balance well, light weight, reliable, feed great, reliable, slick feeding, great value and wonderful factory trigger. Needs: a good recoil pad, which can be bought for $30 or so and installed DIY. Cons: loading port that makes single-loading and checking chamber difficult. I have had four, but now only own my daughter's 7-08.

-Blaser R8: most consistently accurate platform I have fired and generally shoot the same hot or cold or clean or dirty, reliable, feed great, travel well, can switch cartridges, great detachable mounts, excellent trigger, good balance and great open sights. Needs: a normal sling swivel that allows bipod use. Needs: install a cheap Harris swivel adaptor on a really expensive stock/receiver. Cons: guns and accessories overpriced, though Eurooptics $2,200 special on the preferable S version is a reasonable value compared to customs, hammer forged barrels a little rough compared to lapped, cut barrels.

-Honorable mentions--Kimber: most of the qualities of above but just not quite as consistent. Cooper: may be close but I don't have enough experience to know.

Are you happy with your customs? If so, who built them and what specs? Do you have multiple factory rifles from a brand that out perform customs? If so, what brand and why?

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I haven't had any full-out custom jobs, just too many off the shelf and semi-customs to go that route.
All of my semi-customs have been tack-drivers. All started as off-the-shelf rifles that didn't live up to my expectations or needs and got a new barrel and action job done to them.
I'd have to agree on the T3 series. One of the better off-the-shelf rifles available.
I had an R-93 Blaser in 300 Win that was fantastic. Alas, shoulder problems sent it down the road.
I'd add to your list the Howa/Weatherby Vanguard S2's to the list. I haven't owned one yet that wouldn't shoot very well. Especially after tailoring a load for them. Have one in 243 that's shot a 4-shot 2" group at 500.

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If you are building a custom rifle because you think it will shoot or perform better than a factory 308 Win rifle (especially a bedded, screwed on straight factory rifle), you are in for a sad day.

OTOH, not a lot of T3s with fiddleback stocks or chambered in a wildcat you want to play with.

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I would be disappointed in custom bolt guns also if mine shot less accurately than factory bolt guns. Who does your work? My custom bolt guns are almost always more accurate than factory, and they should be. Maybe it is your loads?

GAP, Kampfeld, Dwight Scott, IT&D, RW Snyder, Pierce, Pac-Nor, plus 3 other local smiths who shall remain nameless😉 Have all done nice work for me. But there are definitely some hacks out there, just like any other trade.

There are some very accurate factory rifles out there and one certainly doesn't need a custom to fill the freezer. But there are different reasons for customizing rifles.....

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I've had 4 full customs built and one more on the way. So far of all the ones I've had done the one that has been most accurate and never has had an issue since day one is my Kampfeld Custom built .243. I got it from Karl 4 years ago, I think it might of been one of the last full builds he did.

IMHO its the perfect rifle. Its built around a Borden Alpine action, Lilja #3 contour barrel, 1-9" twist and finished at 23".
Shilen trigger, PTG Oberndorf aluminum bottom metal, and a McMillan Classic Edge stock. Feeds perfect and has been super accurate - this shooting factory ammo. I'm happy:)

My other most accurate rifle and again I'd say about perfect is my factory Remington KS .280. Owned it since new, shoots great and has just been my lucky rifle - I should of bought your stainless one a couple weeks back but missed it by a couple minutes!!

Third one is a Tikka Superlite 7MM-08 that I dropped in a Hunters Edge, scary accurate and will be coming along to Wyoming in a week when I hunt antelope - as a backup but I may have to actually hunt with it:)


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Originally Posted by 2muchgun
I would be disappointed in custom bolt guns also if mine shot less accurately than factory bolt guns. Who does your work? My custom bolt guns are almost always more accurate than factory, and they should be. Maybe it is your loads?

GAP, Kampfeld, Dwight Scott, IT&D, RW Snyder, Pierce, Pac-Nor, plus 3 other local smiths who shall remain nameless😉 Have all done nice work for me. But there are definitely some hacks out there, just like any other trade.

There are some very accurate factory rifles out there and one certainly doesn't need a custom to fill the freezer. But there are different reasons for customizing rifles.....


I have customs built by two on your list. Neither equal my Tikkas and Blasers for both function and accuracy. Some build accuracy and some function, but I have not found the smith that does both in my price range.

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Originally Posted by Bbear
I haven't had any full-out custom jobs, just too many off the shelf and semi-customs to go that route.
All of my semi-customs have been tack-drivers. All started as off-the-shelf rifles that didn't live up to my expectations or needs and got a new barrel and action job done to them.
I'd have to agree on the T3 series. One of the better off-the-shelf rifles available.
I had an R-93 Blaser in 300 Win that was fantastic. Alas, shoulder problems sent it down the road.
I'd add to your list the Howa/Weatherby Vanguard S2's to the list. I haven't owned one yet that wouldn't shoot very well. Especially after tailoring a load for them. Have one in 243 that's shot a 4-shot 2" group at 500.

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Agreed on Howas, though I have owned a couple that were just OK. Most are exceptional.

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Maybe my criteria for a hunting rifle are in order:

-great balance
-reasonable weight
-good trigger
-accurate
-shoot all bullets to roughly the same POI hot or cold or clean or dirty

I have had my share of guns and very few rifles meet the last category, custom or otherwise.

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I would say that if you are happy with your factory guns, then stick with them. No reason to spend more money if you feel it is to no avail. For example, I won't spend money on a custom barrel if a factory one meets my needs, etc.

As for function, I certainly would not accept a custom rifle that did not function correctly, if in fact it was due to the smith's poor work.......

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DMD: Understood. I have had issues myself.

Thats why most of my hunting has been done with pre 64 M70's bedded in Brown, McMillan and Bansner stocks.

(BTW flawless reliable function is the FIRST requirement for a BG rifle, not hairsplitting grouping ability. I have yet to see anything that beats a pre 64 M70 at that task, spreading the experience over many different brands over many years.) If it doesn't work perfectly it's junk no matter how accurate it is.






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I've not had a factory rifle that didn't need something tweaked or fixed, with the exception of my Ed Brown Damara.

I've never had a Tikka.

For typical factory guns vs custom, if you think they're equivalent, don't buy a borescope... blush

Some factory barrels look pretty good, but it's not that hard to see the difference thru a Hawkeye. Many, esp. Salvage and Rem, can look pretty rough with tool marks. I'm amazed how well some of those actually shoot.

Then go Hawkeye a Brux, Krieger, etc.

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
DMD: Understood. I have had issues myself.

Thats why most of my hunting has been done with pre 64 M70's bedded in Brown, McMillan and Bansner stocks.

(BTW flawless reliable function is the FIRST requirement for a BG rifle, not hairsplitting grouping ability. I have yet to see anything that beats a pre 64 M70 at that task, spreading the experience over many different brands over many years.) If it doesn't work perfectly it's junk no matter how accurate it is.




Amen and hallelujah!! I have no problems with my factory rifles. Most are over 60 years old though. They made them to work back then.... wink


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I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
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You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Yeah it's the old wood and blued guns that get left alone, save for maybe a trigger job. The new factory stuff that gets tweaked and customized.....

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There's been 52 years + to weed out the Win M70's that feed like crap, don't shoot well etc.

What you have left is the cream of those made.

I'd guess that 52 years from now - the available examples of M77 or Kimber or whatever will most likely be slicker n snot, feed well, shoot etc. Likely for the same reasons.


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Yep...as my realist friend would say, "We're living in the good old days."

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
DMD: Understood. I have had issues myself.

Thats why most of my hunting has been done with pre 64 M70's bedded in Brown, McMillan and Bansner stocks.

(BTW flawless reliable function is the FIRST requirement for a BG rifle, not hairsplitting grouping ability. I have yet to see anything that beats a pre 64 M70 at that task, spreading the experience over many different brands over many years.) If it doesn't work perfectly it's junk no matter how accurate it is.




Agreed. The function didn't make my list. Not sure why, maybe I consider it a given. My guess is a Blaser or Tikka out performs a pre 64 in that regard but need more testing to prove. I am confident both do under normal conditions

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
I've not had a factory rifle that didn't need something tweaked or fixed, with the exception of my Ed Brown Damara.

I've never had a Tikka.

For typical factory guns vs custom, if you think they're equivalent, don't buy a borescope... blush

Some factory barrels look pretty good, but it's not that hard to see the difference thru a Hawkeye. Many, esp. Salvage and Rem, can look pretty rough with tool marks. I'm amazed how well some of those actually shoot.

Then go Hawkeye a Brux, Krieger, etc.

DF

That's my point, Tikkas and Blasers don't need tweaking in my experience.

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I have killed more stuff with my M700 rebore 338-06 than anything. Going on 22 years. That said, I do enjoy my M70's...


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Originally Posted by DesertMuleDeer
function didn't make my list. Not sure why, maybe I consider it a given. My guess is a Blaser or Tikka out performs a pre 64 in that regard


Would love to hear the "reasoning" behind said "guess".

For sheer practicality, reliability, dependability in the field, a Pre-64 M70 is very hard to beat. Break it down part for part, and it should be self evident.....

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Reasoning is outlined above but have had 30 or so pre64 70s and around a dozen custom FN Mausers, the Mausers ae still mostly around because of my commitment and nostalgia, the pre-64 M70s are gone and the Blasers and T3s for me better meet my standards of reliability, accuracy and ergonomics out of the box without a bunch of gunsmithing. Much less drama from those two brands than anything I have played with in my opinion. I also think both feed better ghan Mausers or pre-64s because of inline mags.

For what it's worth, most of my hunting is in arid and fairly open areas requiring good marksmanship from field positions. Said areas contain ample amounts of blowing dirt.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
I've not had a factory rifle that didn't need something tweaked or fixed, with the exception of my Ed Brown Damara.

I've never had a Tikka.

For typical factory guns vs custom, if you think they're equivalent, don't buy a borescope... blush

Some factory barrels look pretty good, but it's not that hard to see the difference thru a Hawkeye. Many, esp. Salvage and Rem, can look pretty rough with tool marks. I'm amazed how well some of those actually shoot.

Then go Hawkeye a Brux, Krieger, etc.

DF


I doubt either Blasers or Tikkas look great from borescope because of how they foul. But, they tend to shoot the first shot into the group from a cold barrel, which is the most important thing to me--above both feeding and overall accuracy.

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Originally Posted by DesertMuleDeer
Reasoning is outlined above but have had 30 or so pre64 70s and around a dozen custom FN Mausers, the Mausers ae still mostly around because of my commitment and nostalgia, the pre-64 M70s are gone and the Blasers and T3s for me better meet my standards of reliability, accuracy and ergonomics out of the box without a bunch of gunsmithing. Much less drama from those two brands than anything I have played with in my opinion. I also think both feed better ghan Mausers or pre-64s because of inline mags.

For what it's worth, most of my hunting is in arid and fairly open areas requiring good marksmanship from field positions. Said areas contain ample amounts of blowing dirt.


I would say the pre 64 M70 has a more reliable trigger and extractor than a Tikka. CRF bolt, firing pin, and trigger are easily strippable/field serviceable in comparison, and no bolt stop or plastic shroud. Plus you don't have to worry about losing your recoil lug when removing the stock grin It is just less prone to getting clogged up or frozen, and more easily fixed if it did.

The Tikka may have a better feeling trigger, and may even outshoot it also, but no way it rates higher for dependability under field conditions IMO.

Any way, didn't mean to get sidetracked.

Use the rifles that make you happy. I have factory rifles I would never part with for a custom, or even change a thing on. If the Tikka or Blaser do it all for you, then no need to change a thing. I slapped my Sako Finnlight in a McMillan and love it, but probably could have loved it just as it was......


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Twice Ive arrived at my friends ranch in Wyoming to se his Rem 700 trigger so clogged with gumbo that the rifle would not longer cock and fire; in Maine years back I saw a snowstorm with ice and melting snow shut down a pair of Rem 700's. Froze up the safeties and triggers. My pre war M70 endured the same conditions and shrugged it all off.

I am no fan of enclosed trigger mechanisms for BG rifles.

Recently sold one rifle that started life as a pre 64 M70 FW 270,in a Brown Precision PoundR that dates back to the late 80's or thereabouts. It's been all over the Continent 2-3 times, killed a lot of game. This is the third barrel. Cant recall any snafus despite years of hunting and a few thousand rounds.

I won't call it a "custom" rifle; just a factory. or "parts" gun.



This is new within the last 7 years or so; pre 64 FW 270 in McMillan bedded for me by Redneck. Been flawless so far. Really just a factory rifle but pre 64 received a lot more "hands on" attention back then than rifles do now. The way some feed/function I swear no human hands ever touched them. I trust skilled craftsmen more than CNC machines to make things work perfectly.

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The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Pretty much perfection by my standards in a BG rifle. A M70 Classic with all the bad stuff taken away by Gene Simillion. Shoots great and functions perfectly.

To get it to work like a pre 64 M70 all he had to do was toss the extractor for a "real one" , replace box and follower with items form Darcy Echols shop and do the machining "trick moves"... install a Krieger barrel, etc etc. Stock is Echols Legend.

In any event it has never needed a thing ever since it was delivered a few years ago. But Simillion is one of those smiths who knows how to make a rifle function perfectly and that's what you pay for.

I will mention....in passing again...that pre 64 M70's generally have never needed that kind of attention IME.

Some folks have opined they've had years to weed out the good and bad pre 64's. I can't agree,having owned dozens. I've found the quality of function and accuracy pretty consistent and far above that of any M70's that followed . And better than most any factory rifle I can think of.(Please, no lectures about how the new ones are "better". The Classic certainly never was, and the FN rifles have not been around long enough to prove a thing. Talk to me in 50 years..... whistle


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Something Old School that works. Len Brownell custom on a pre 64 M70 action. 7 RM.It will go bang every time you ask it to.


[Linked Image]

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The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Bob - I'd agree if you owned dozens BEFORE 1964 and found them all to be excellent. I never took you to be that old. Maybe I am wrong.

The dozens owned since (if you're not ingwe's age) are survivors - guns that shot well, were put together right and not incorrectly repaired or butchered at some point between manufacture and that's why you bought them.

What I was trying to say is that of all the guns made today - the ones left over 50+ years from now will most likely all shoot and feed and be rather nice. Those made today that suck - simply won't be around to purchase as an "original". Similar to pre-64's

Rifle darwinsim might be a term to use....

I believe that the pre-64's you've been buying were the best representation of those that were made because they were good enough to keep 52 years and if they weren't they were either fixed, turned into projects or scrapped.

Eventually all you have left are the top performers. It's a statistical impossibility that all M70's from 1936-1963 were produced as well as the ones you've owned or were retained.


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Teal I am not that old..... grin

In 1964 I was only 14.

I had no idea those Ive owned were anything special....they were bought from stores or private individuals. And mostly from here in New England. Just run of the mill rifles and the most I ever did to them (other than those that I bought for the actions which were mostly those discards you're referring to) was restock with a good synthetic.

They are remarkably durable although anything can break eventually. I am fussier about what I will buy now.

But what always impressed me about them was the feeding/function and how reliable they were. The barrels were always pretty good and even if they did not always produce 1/2" groups,they were still good shooters.

I would like to have someone start a thread entitled "Tell Us About Your pre 64 M70 Failures and Malfunctions". smile

I have never seen one. Of course it would have to be started by someone old enough to know. smile

Here's another that Ive owned a couple years and just got it scoped the other day and took to the range. First indications are it will be like all the others. It's a 30/06 FW...just another rifle.

I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over t years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.


Oops here it is! grin



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The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I'm sure they were - I've nothing against them at all. The only pre-64 I've ever used was a M94 that my dad bought for 200 dollars and the guy threw in a Stihl chainsaw that ran for 25 years after the deal.

Still has the rifle and it's 98% condition.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Pretty much perfection by my standards in a BG rifle. A M70 Classic with all the bad stuff taken away by Gene Simillion. Shoots great and functions perfectly.

To get it to work like a pre 64 M70 all he had to do was toss the extractor for a "real one" , replace box and follower with items form Darcy Echols shop and do the machining "trick moves"... install a Krieger barrel, etc etc. Stock is Echols Legend.

In any event it has never needed a thing ever since it was delivered a few years ago. But Simillion is one of those smiths who knows how to make a rifle function perfectly and that's what you pay for.

I will mention....in passing again...that pre 64 M70's generally have never needed that kind of attention IME.

Some folks have opined they've had years to weed out the good and bad pre 64's. I can't agree,having owned dozens. I've found the quality of function and accuracy pretty consistent and far above that of any M70's that followed . And better than most any factory rifle I can think of.(Please, no lectures about how the new ones are "better". The Classic certainly never was, and the FN rifles have not been around long enough to prove a thing. Talk to me in 50 years..... whistle


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Something Old School that works. Len Brownell custom on a pre 64 M70 action. 7 RM.It will go bang every time you ask it to.


[Linked Image]


I have never handled one of their guns but I suspect as you point out about Simillion that someone like Echols or Simillion would build a rifle with few bugs. I just have so far avoided spending that kind of money on a single rifle, though.

I too believe the pre-64s were the best of the M70s, but to my point, those rifles, which are really nice, have been worked on to get them where they're at in those pictures. New barrels and stocks and if your gunsmiths are like the ones I have used, you then work the bugs out of the upgrades, which is what I have tired of doing.

In theory, the M70 trigger is better, but I have not had any problems with enclosed triggers but I keep my rifles clean and have not hunted a lot in freezing rain. The last time I did hunt in those conditions, though, I was carrying a Mauser with a Timney with no issues.

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Nice guns, Bob.

I guess if someone wanted a M-70 tweaked to perfection, no holes barred and had a healthy checkbook, there's always the Echols Legend. D'Arcy really goes thru them, fixing any and everything that could ever go wrong. They feed flawlessly, the bolt handle is pinned, OEM extractor replaced, etc, etc. Of course with a pre-64, you don't need to pin the handle, replace the extractor; they feed pretty well...

One could tweak a M-70 himself, buy a good, late model pickup with the difference... laugh

Or just get a pre-64, upgrade with an Echols Legend stock and while we're at it, a Krieger barrel wouldn't hurt... laugh

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Nice guns, Bob.

I guess if someone wanted a M-70 tweaked to perfection, no holes barred and had a healthy checkbook, there's always the Echols Legend. D'Arcy really goes thru them, fixing any and everything that could ever go wrong. They feed flawlessly, the bolt handle is pinned, OEM extractor replaced, etc, etc. Of course with a pre-64, you don't need to pin the handle, replace the extractor; they feed pretty well...

One could tweak a M-70 himself, buy a good, late model pickup with the difference... laugh

Or just get a pre-64, upgrade with an Echols Legend stock and while we're at it, a Krieger barrel wouldn't hurt... laugh

DF


DF: That's the formula.... smile

Some guys like mass produced "stuff".

Send a Classic action to Simillion, Penrod, or Echols. You'll get good stuff back. Yes they cost more but who needs all these duplicitous rifles anyway? confused




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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If I may say - I believe that was AD's approach.

1 or 2 really good rifles - hunt with the rest.


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DMD there is nothing in the rifle world simpler than pre 64 barrel and action in a Brown precision or McMillan.

One left hand pal of mine did it recently with a FW 270. He's an accomplished match shooter who shoots all the good places...said recent;y it's the best factory rifle he's ever owned.

The Simillion is a Classic action (or at least it was until he got through with it. Took lots of work. I provided the action. It cost me about $6k. Like anything else there is custom and there is "custom" and they are not created equal.

The FW in the McMillan Edge is straight factory...no tweaking required. All Lee did is bed it. It's killed 5 bucks in its short career.





The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Oops here it is! grin
[Linked Image]

I really like the looks of that one, Bob.

I have to somewhat disagree with the rifle Darwinism theory when it comes to pre 64 M70s. I just don't feel that many, if any, needed "weeding out". Overall quality was known to be exceptional. The rifles functioned as designed, and they may not all have been tack drivers but the general concensus is that they shot just about any ammo of the time acceptably well. Which is what my experience with them has been. In my 1953 30-06, for example, I cannot find a 165 gr. bullet it won't shoot into 1.5" or better. And it does same with the only 2 150 and 180gr. bullets I have tried. Same goes for my bud's 30-06 circa 1954. Not tackdrivers, but more than accurate enough for reliably taking big game.

I now kinda wish I had kept more of my M70s. I recently sold my 7 mag, 300 mag, and custom 270 WSM. But the one I really wish I had kept was a Featherweight in 308. However, my 1957 M88 in 308 always seemed to jump it's place in line when hunting time rolled around. The Win 88 IS a tackdriver, and has needed no "refinements" ( the trigger on mine is better than most)........


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I agree with the OP. I've owned seven customs from various makers and have had "issues" with four of them.

As to Blasers, my R93 has multiple barrels. The .30/06 and 9.3 x 62 barrels produce consistent half inch groups with factory Federal brand ammunition. The .300, .338 and .375 barrels exhibit "average" (1.5 ") accuracy.

Factory rifles have tended to perform well for me right out of the box. In recent years I've only had one that could be classified as a "dud".

The advantage of a custom rifle is that it is assumed you get the exact features and specifications that you want and hopefully, top quality components and workmanship. That assumption sometimes lack validity.

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2much: I guess my experiences are about like yours. Although i did notice an up tick in accuracy from those rifles once properly bedded in a good synthetic stock, with hand loads. I have had some that shot as well as Kriegers. smile

I don't expect everyone to like the pre 64's the way I do, but the topic seemed to be how to get a good custom or a factory rifle that performs well all the time. What I posted is my solution and has been for many years.

That 06 has only been shot a few times with blue box Federal 150's. No handholds yet.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
2much: I guess my experiences are about like yours. Although i did notice an up tick in accuracy from those rifles once properly bedded in a good synthetic stock, with hand loads. I have had some that shot as well as Kriegers. smile

I don't expect everyone to like the pre 64's the way I do, but the topic seemed to be how to get a good custom or a factory rifle that performs well all the time. What I posted is my solution and has been for many years.

That 06 has only been shot a few times with blue box Federal 150's. No handholds yet.


Refill the brass with 52 grains of IMR4064 and a 150 and see what happens.

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In my 88 the first bullets I tried were Federal Classic 150gr. blue/gray box. They shot into 3/4" and I was very happy and hunted with them. Finally I decided I would handload and it if it would do better. 45.5 gr. IMR 4895 under a 150 Accubond cut group size in half! I was shocked. My 88 is truly a 3/8"-1/2" rifle. 2 Years ago, I ran Federal MSR 150gr. Fusions through it. Guess what? 1/2-5/8" groups. 3 ammos, nothing over 3/4". Not bad for an old gun.

I just finished loading 150gr. Accubonds over 45.5gr. 4895 last night. CCI 200 primers, in that used Federal brass.

Managed to pick up some 4064 and 4350 yesterday. I am about to go buy 2 jars of 4895 after lunch......

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over the years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.

Wow!

Now, don't ya reckon those were some pretty slick actions after 100-150K rounds... cool

DF

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For clarity, that was an '06 load I mentioned.





I use several 308 deer loads, but my current favorite is 45.5 grains of H4895 under a 150 grain Ballistic Tip. It produces about 2830 fps from the 22" barrel of my 700 LVSF, grouping below moa for five shots.

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Originally Posted by mathman
For clarity, that was an '06 load I mentioned.


Yes. My bad for throwing the 308 into the mix blush

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over the years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.

Wow!

Now, don't ya reckon those were some pretty slick actions after 100-150K rounds... cool

DF



DF: They were slick alright. I saw them both many times at the club. smile

Incidentally both rifles used the old M70 trigger.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over the years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.

Wow!

Now, don't ya reckon those were some pretty slick actions after 100-150K rounds... cool

DF



DF: They were slick alright. I saw them both many times at the club. smile

Incidentally both rifles used the old M70 trigger.

Man, would one of those make a great donor action or what.

I'd replace worn parts, extractor, etc., rock and roll with a Krieger and a Legend, keep the original trigger, add a nice finish... grin

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I agree DMD. I've never had a custom that didn't require much more work to get right. Most were built by big names as well. It's been very frustrating at times. I've had far better luck and equal accuracy by customizing factory bbld actions myself.

I've 3 of the T3s as well and while they are accurate out of the box, they are not problem free.

The Blaser has been on my want list for a while. Seems odd spending that on factory, but I've spent much more on custom that had problems.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over the years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.

Wow!

Now, don't ya reckon those were some pretty slick actions after 100-150K rounds... cool

DF



DF: They were slick alright. I saw them both many times at the club. smile

Incidentally both rifles used the old M70 trigger.

Man, would one of those make a great donor action or what.

I'd replace worn parts, extractor, etc., rock and roll with a Krieger and a Legend, keep the original trigger, add a nice finish... grin

DF


DF: ONLY match/tactical shooters it 15,000 rounds a year for a decade.... far as I know. Of course that will include several barrel jobs in the process but thats what serious match shooters do routinely.

Seeing pre 64's go through that kind of abuse, no wonder i don't really trust much else. Problem is they are getting old and scarce.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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There are only a handful of shooters on this site whom I actually believe have burned out 1 barrel, let alone multiple barrels......

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Nice sling on that Simillion!

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When I was more involved in the business, we sold a trainload of various factory rifles and very few failed to perform as desired. The more discerning customers had them glass bedded, had the trigger adjusted or tuned, and maybe had a different recoil pad installed. Sometimes the chamber might be altered by lengthening the throat. As a rule these rifles worked perfectly and did everything the owners asked of them.
I also built quite few custom rifles and soon learned that those worked best which deviated the least from standard specs. Unusally tight chambers accomplished nothing but diminished reliability. Closer tolerances were acceptable only where they had no effect. Things which might be of some benefit in a custom rifle would include such things as stock fit, balance, and over-all appearance.
I have seen custom rifles with rough chambers, crooked chambers, excessive headspace, triggers set too light, triggers set with insufficient over-travel, poor feeding, split stocks, and a host of other problems. Sometimes, some of these problems stemmed from the customer's cartridge choice orinsistence on a given trigger weight. Usually they came from the builder being too concerned with a given aspect of the build and neglecting overall function.
All of my present hunting rifles are sort of customs but most are pretty standard as far as specifications are concerned. Only one is a wildcat and none are built especially tight or to closer than normal tolerances except where there was some benefit to doing so. Ultimately, my only reason for using non-factory rifles is that I like to build them. GD

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Originally Posted by 2muchgun
There are only a handful of shooters on this site whom I actually believe have burned out 1 barrel, let alone multiple barrels......


I haven't burned out a 308 barrel, but I've spread my shooting out over many rifles. A jug of 748, 4064, 3031, two of H4895, two of Varget, three of RL15, two of IMR4895, and many and various one pounders. If it was on one barrel it would be a little long in the tooth by now. grin

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Originally Posted by LJB
Nice sling on that Simillion!


Latigo! wink




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by 2muchgun
Originally Posted by DesertMuleDeer
Reasoning is outlined above but have had 30 or so pre64 70s and around a dozen custom FN Mausers, the Mausers ae still mostly around because of my commitment and nostalgia, the pre-64 M70s are gone and the Blasers and T3s for me better meet my standards of reliability, accuracy and ergonomics out of the box without a bunch of gunsmithing. Much less drama from those two brands than anything I have played with in my opinion. I also think both feed better ghan Mausers or pre-64s because of inline mags.

For what it's worth, most of my hunting is in arid and fairly open areas requiring good marksmanship from field positions. Said areas contain ample amounts of blowing dirt.


I would say the pre 64 M70 has a more reliable trigger and extractor than a Tikka. CRF bolt, firing pin, and trigger are easily strippable/field serviceable in comparison, and no bolt stop or plastic shroud. Plus you don't have to worry about losing your recoil lug when removing the stock grin It is just less prone to getting clogged up or frozen, and more easily fixed if it did.

The Tikka may have a better feeling trigger, and may even outshoot it also, but no way it rates higher for dependability under field conditions IMO.

Any way, didn't mean to get sidetracked.

Use the rifles that make you happy. I have factory rifles I would never part with for a custom, or even change a thing on. If the Tikka or Blaser do it all for you, then no need to change a thing. I slapped my Sako Finnlight in a McMillan and love it, but probably could have loved it just as it was......



You tell him buddy... laugh


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Pretty much perfection by my standards in a BG rifle. A M70 Classic with all the bad stuff taken away by Gene Simillion. Shoots great and functions perfectly.

To get it to work like a pre 64 M70 all he had to do was toss the extractor for a "real one" , replace box and follower with items form Darcy Echols shop and do the machining "trick moves"... install a Krieger barrel, etc etc. Stock is Echols Legend.

In any event it has never needed a thing ever since it was delivered a few years ago. But Simillion is one of those smiths who knows how to make a rifle function perfectly and that's what you pay for.

I will mention....in passing again...that pre 64 M70's generally have never needed that kind of attention IME.

Some folks have opined they've had years to weed out the good and bad pre 64's. I can't agree,having owned dozens. I've found the quality of function and accuracy pretty consistent and far above that of any M70's that followed . And better than most any factory rifle I can think of.(Please, no lectures about how the new ones are "better". The Classic certainly never was, and the FN rifles have not been around long enough to prove a thing. Talk to me in 50 years..... whistle


[Linked Image]



Something Old School that works. Len Brownell custom on a pre 64 M70 action. 7 RM.It will go bang every time you ask it to.


[Linked Image]



Beautiful examples of some of the best rifles made.


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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I'm picky about triggers, at least on a precision rifle, which pretty much eliminates large swaths of rifledom. smile

I'm trying to think of a time a M700 failed me and I can't. Don't misunderstand- I've had a few that didn't shoot as well as I require. But unless I'm forgetting something, my next M700 failure will be my first. I've put many many thousands of rounds through M700's.

I do understand you guys are breaking bolt handles off willy-nilly out there <g>... but I guess I'm not that tuff.

The rifle I'm building now will be virtually all "custom" in the normal sense that we use that word with rifles. Manners, Bartlien, PTG all over the place, Holland, Timney, and a couple parts I'll make myself. I never even hesitated- it's getting built on a blueprinted M700 action.


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Originally Posted by teal
Bob - I'd agree if you owned dozens BEFORE 1964 and found them all to be excellent. I never took you to be that old. Maybe I am wrong.

The dozens owned since (if you're not ingwe's age) are survivors - guns that shot well, were put together right and not incorrectly repaired or butchered at some point between manufacture and that's why you bought them.

What I was trying to say is that of all the guns made today - the ones left over 50+ years from now will most likely all shoot and feed and be rather nice. Those made today that suck - simply won't be around to purchase as an "original". Similar to pre-64's

Rifle darwinsim might be a term to use....

I believe that the pre-64's you've been buying were the best representation of those that were made because they were good enough to keep 52 years and if they weren't they were either fixed, turned into projects or scrapped.

Eventually all you have left are the top performers. It's a statistical impossibility that all M70's from 1936-1963 were produced as well as the ones you've owned or were retained.


I hate to call bs on this statement, but I know guys that collect pre 64 model 70's. My smith collects them and had 144 rifles at one time. Every one of them worked as they did right off the show room floor. They didn't let them out of the factory unless they worked flawlessly. Yes, maybe they were coddled a bit at the factory, but those were different times and they wanted people to be happy with their product. They also made them with the intention that they would last "forever" and something that could be passed down from generation to generation. That mentality doesn't exist anymore. I've been on other forums and websites where people badmouth Tikkas's for extraction, ejection, and the horrid recoil block that is a PITA to deal with. To each their own, but I'd lay money down that the pre 64 model 70 is going to outlast any Tikka every made.. wink


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Nice guns, Bob.

I guess if someone wanted a M-70 tweaked to perfection, no holes barred and had a healthy checkbook, there's always the Echols Legend. D'Arcy really goes thru them, fixing any and everything that could ever go wrong. They feed flawlessly, the bolt handle is pinned, OEM extractor replaced, etc, etc. Of course with a pre-64, you don't need to pin the handle, replace the extractor; they feed pretty well...

One could tweak a M-70 himself, buy a good, late model pickup with the difference... laugh

Or just get a pre-64, upgrade with an Echols Legend stock and while we're at it, a Krieger barrel wouldn't hurt... laugh

DF



I like the way this guy thinks^^^^^^^ laugh


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Krieger added..... smile



[Linked Image]




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Teal I am not that old..... grin

In 1964 I was only 14.

I had no idea those Ive owned were anything special....they were bought from stores or private individuals. And mostly from here in New England. Just run of the mill rifles and the most I ever did to them (other than those that I bought for the actions which were mostly those discards you're referring to) was restock with a good synthetic.

They are remarkably durable although anything can break eventually. I am fussier about what I will buy now.

But what always impressed me about them was the feeding/function and how reliable they were. The barrels were always pretty good and even if they did not always produce 1/2" groups,they were still good shooters.

I would like to have someone start a thread entitled "Tell Us About Your pre 64 M70 Failures and Malfunctions". smile

I have never seen one. Of course it would have to be started by someone old enough to know. smile

Here's another that Ive owned a couple years and just got it scoped the other day and took to the range. First indications are it will be like all the others. It's a 30/06 FW...just another rifle.

I've mentioned this before but a now deceased match shooting friend had a pair of palma guns based on pre 64 M70 actions. he figured one of them had several barrels over t years and had fired just about 150,000 rounds in practice and competition without a bauble.

The other was "younger" and had under 100,000 rounds. This rifle broke an extractor after 40,000 rounds or so. All he ever did to those actions was replace firing pin springs every 30,000 rounds or so to get reliable ignition. I'd say thats way more use and abuse than any sporting hunter will ever give a rifle action which is the heart of the whole rifle deal anyway. Barrels and stocks are spare parts...replace at will.


Oops here it is! grin



[Linked Image]





Just did it Bob. Hope you are happy. Probably won't hear about any triggers snapping in half, bolt handles coming off, bolt stops not working and extractors and ejectors not working...


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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LMAO.

Comparing Tikkas to Pre64s is a conversation that should just never be had.

Only a newb would even bother. And I don't want to hear about modern manufacturing, yada, yada, yada. It just tells me you don't know your azz from a hole in the ground as far as rifles are concerned.......

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My hunting and target shooting rifles have been modified factory.

My late dad owned a tool and die shop and we were always working on something.

The rifle I have got the most deer with is my Savage 99F 358.

I refinished it's stock. That slip on pad was only for the range.

Here are four of my rifles with that 99.

[Linked Image]




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Originally Posted by 2muchgun
LMAO.

Comparing Tikkas to Pre64s is a conversation that should just never be had.

Only a newb would even bother. And I don't want to hear about modern manufacturing, yada, yada, yada. It just tells me you don't know your azz from a hole in the ground as far as rifles are concerned.......


If directed at me, I probably don't know much about rifles nor did I start a pre-64 / Tikka comparison thread. Though, between the two in factory format, I would choose a synthetic Tikka over a pre-64. With that said, Bob's custom M70s are super nice, though!

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No, not directed at you......

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You guys crack me up I have two buds in Ak that hunt with tikkas 300 Wsm one has killed 3-4 brown bears, 5-6 black bears, couple mose and caribou.. The other bud has killed At least 5 rams with his tikka (i.e. Dall sheep) last I talked to him he has 19 sheep to his credit, several black bears, some brown bears, moose and caribou.. I load for both of thier rifle one likes the old 190gr hornady btsp and the other likes 168gr Barnes Ttsx. Nothing wrong with tikkas.. And nothing wrong with the classic model 70's... Oh and those two boys wouldn't know what a pre64 was just couple Alaskan boys killing [bleep] not posting pictures of high end guns sitting in gun safes..


Last edited by 79S; 09/19/16.

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Originally Posted by 79S
You guys crack me up I have two buds in Ak that hunt with tikkas 300 Wsm one has killed 3-4 brown bears, 5-6 black bears, couple mose and caribou.. The other bud has killed At least 5 rams with his tikka (i.e. Dall sheep) last I talked to him he has 19 sheep to his credit, several black bears, some brown bears, moose and caribou.. I load for both of thier rifle one likes the old 190gr hornady btsp and the other likes 168gr Barnes Ttsx. Nothing wrong with tikkas.. And nothing wrong with the classic model 70's... Oh and those two boys wouldn't know what a pre64 was just couple Alaskan boys killing [bleep] not posting pictures of high end guns sitting in gun safes..



Since Im the only one who posted any pictures I assume the safe queens are mine, right? smile

I was trying to show the OP some factory and custom rifles. But of course there's always an [bleep] like you hanging around isn't there?

The safe queens are newly acquired; i was not always 66 years old, so yes a lot of my rifles are newer and most of my hunting is behind me and not in front. Most of my rifles that I used when I was hunting more actively are long gone.

I have owned and shot more Classics than you've ever owned and sold them all because they are a pathetic POS. smirk

But you like them which is typical for people who don;t know their ass from their elbow.

I am not impressed by your buddies track record on glamour game, which are mostly stupid, naive, and easy to kill if you get into the country so pitch the hero stuff to people who have never BTDT.

Any dope can kill Alaskan BG. Lets face it....those animals aren't that smart. If you live i Alaska and hunt a lifetime without that sort of track record, you are considered sort of a stiff....right?

Spare me the rural hero horeshidt. You know why Alaskan game is so well regulated? Because the animals are so stupid and easy to kill you clowns would wipe them out in a decade LOL.

If the Tikkers are so great sell all these POS Classics you own and buy some rifles LMAO.

But do tell me more. I enjoy your posts once I figure out WTF you are saying.



What a dip [bleep]... smirk

Last edited by BobinNH; 09/19/16.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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For the record - I never compared a p-64 to a Tikka either.

Simply stated - that the YOUNGEST p-64 a person could possibly own right now is 52 years old (give or take some months I suppose).

ANYTHING in this sport/lifestyle that is 52 years old + lasted because it was made well to begin with. Those that weren't didn't live to see their 52nd birthday.

That's my point. Law of averages tells me that some p-64's are no longer with us because they were discarded along the way - a bad one got out or was butchered by some kitchen gunsmith. If I want to buy a p-64 Winchester today - my odds of getting a real nice one are much better than maybe buying one in 1966 when the market hadn't corrected any issues with the ones fresh from the factory just yet, as few as some would like there to think there would be....


And the odds of getting a good one today/tomorrow is only going to go up as they age.

Sorta like in 2036 - if you buy a Ruger tang M77 - original, odds are it's going to have a good barrel on it, not one of the crap ones that got out as those will have been weeded out of the market by then.

(damn - my first rifle was a tang M77 in 30-06 and I didn't realize they went to the MKII in 1984 - forever and just yesterday ago...)




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Dakota M 76 7mm Dakota,it has shot every bullet I chose into itty-bitty groups and that includes 160 gr NP,150 gr NP,140 gr NBT and the only one it shot bad was the Winchester 150 gr Power Point.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Settled on the 140 gr NBT going at 3340 fps average.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH

Seeing pre 64's go through that kind of abuse, no wonder i don't really trust much else. Problem is they are getting old and scarce.

Bob,

That could apply to a bunch of us... shocked

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by 79S
You guys crack me up I have two buds in Ak that hunt with tikkas 300 Wsm one has killed 3-4 brown bears, 5-6 black bears, couple mose and caribou.. The other bud has killed At least 5 rams with his tikka (i.e. Dall sheep) last I talked to him he has 19 sheep to his credit, several black bears, some brown bears, moose and caribou.. I load for both of thier rifle one likes the old 190gr hornady btsp and the other likes 168gr Barnes Ttsx. Nothing wrong with tikkas.. And nothing wrong with the classic model 70's... Oh and those two boys wouldn't know what a pre64 was just couple Alaskan boys killing [bleep] not posting pictures of high end guns sitting in gun safes..



Since Im the only one who posted any pictures I assume the safe queens are mine, right? smile

I was trying to show the OP some factory and custom rifles. But of course there's always an [bleep] like you hanging around isn't there?

The safe queens are newly acquired; i was not always 66 years old, so yes a lot of my rifles are newer and most of my hunting is behind me and not in front. Most of my rifles that I used when I was hunting more actively are long gone.

I have owned and shot more Classics than you've ever owned and sold them all because they are a pathetic POS. smirk

But you like them which is typical for people who don;t know their ass from their elbow.

I am not impressed by your buddies track record on glamour game, which are mostly stupid, naive, and easy to kill if you get into the country so pitch the hero stuff to people who have never BTDT.

Any dope can kill Alaskan BG. Lets face it....those animals aren't that smart. If you live i Alaska and hunt a lifetime without that sort of track record, you are considered sort of a stiff....right?

Spare me the rural hero horeshidt. You know why Alaskan game is so well regulated? Because the animals are so stupid and easy to kill you clowns would wipe them out in a decade LOL.

If the Tikkers are so great sell all these POS Classics you own and buy some rifles LMAO.

But do tell me more. I enjoy your posts once I figure out WTF you are saying.



What a dip [bleep]... smirk


Such wisdom thanks it's always gereat when one of the prodigy keyboard warriors from 24 hour takes the time to write a well thought out post
Ah man you are so cool thanks for keeping me straight buddy.. If I knew your butt hurt level would of pegged off the butt hurt meter I wouldn't had said anything lol.. What now you are going to come and hunt me down lol wtf.. and thanks for the heads up on Alaskan game being regulated as well.. You are so smart

Last edited by 79S; 09/20/16.

Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Originally Posted by BobinNH
Originally Posted by 79S
You guys crack me up I have two buds in Ak that hunt with tikkas 300 Wsm one has killed 3-4 brown bears, 5-6 black bears, couple mose and caribou.. The other bud has killed At least 5 rams with his tikka (i.e. Dall sheep) last I talked to him he has 19 sheep to his credit, several black bears, some brown bears, moose and caribou.. I load for both of thier rifle one likes the old 190gr hornady btsp and the other likes 168gr Barnes Ttsx. Nothing wrong with tikkas.. And nothing wrong with the classic model 70's... Oh and those two boys wouldn't know what a pre64 was just couple Alaskan boys killing [bleep] not posting pictures of high end guns sitting in gun safes..



Since Im the only one who posted any pictures I assume the safe queens are mine, right? smile

I was trying to show the OP some factory and custom rifles. But of course there's always an [bleep] like you hanging around isn't there?

i was not always 66 years old,

I have owned and shot more Classics than you've ever owned and sold them all because they are a pathetic POS. smirk

But you like them which is typical for people who don;t know their ass from their elbow.




What a dip [bleep]... smirk


Lets evaluate this comment- if you buy something and go man that thing is Pos I'm not buying another one. Then you see another one and go well maybe the other one was just a fluke you buy it and go this is a Pos never again will I buy another one. But by your own admission you did not buy just 1 classic you had several of them. So that goes too show you are not very bright. Next time jot your thoughts to paper read over them before you type them too post on the forums.. Look in the mirror and repeat the word dip [bleep]...


Originally Posted by Bricktop
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.

Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Thats a great comeback I am woundedLOL how many of those Classics that you have are safe queens? Or is your BG hunting agenda so crowded year round that they all get hunted on a daily basis from SeptembertoDecember.Comeonfessuphowmany ofyourriflesgethuntedeveryyear so they don't look likesafequeens to, waitingwithbatedbreathIamimpressed.

GoloadsomeammoforyourTikkershootingbuddiestheysoundalike real BGhunters to meiftheydidn'tliveinalaskatheylikelycouldn'taffordyoeverhunt there...thosegoodold alaskanbushheroes.

What a [bleep] joke...

Comeonbackafteryoulearntostructureasentenceandusepunctuation...see you in a decade or two.

OnlyaneencephaliticmoronpissesdownmybackandtellsmeitsrainingthanksforthecomplimentIdontthinkyouarecoolatallanddoubtyoucantellusanythingaboutariflethateverybodydoesntalreadyknowhaveaniceday.

Youareoneofthebestargumentsaihaveseenforrevocationofthefirstamendment.

TheresanassholeineverycrowdtellmesomemoreherostoriesaboutyougoodoldAlaskabuddies with Tikkers...bunch of hardchargeerstheyarethattheyhaveYOUto load their ammoforthem.Onlyanidiotloadsammofrootherpeopleyouqualify.

Ifthisispainfultoreaditsexactlyhowyouwriteandcommunicateallthetimeand givesmea headacheifyoucantstructureasentencehowcananyonetrustyoutoloadtheirammo?


Huh??? sick




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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A bit late to the party but here goes. I've had a lot of factory rifles that functioned adequately and shot well enough to hunt with. Many were/are pre '64 M70s but also several Weatherbys, both MkV and Vanguard, and a couple 700 Rems. Started trying custom rifles back in early '80s and have owned examples by many of the big name builders of that era as well as today's. Have a couple built by an accuracy, tactical type builder that shoot well but otherwise don't quite make the grade. Through trial and error I've weeded out all but four men who are capable of putting together a rifle that shoots very well with many loads and functions flawlessly. One is now retired but the others are building rifles that I'd trust on any hunt for any type of game. All build mainly classic type hunting rifles on M70 actions, stocked in fine wood or McMillan handles. I would pick one any day compared to any factory rifle I have owned or handled.

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Originally Posted by John55
A bit late to the party but here goes. I've had a lot of factory rifles that functioned adequately and shot well enough to hunt with. Many were/are pre '64 M70s but also several Weatherbys, both MkV and Vanguard, and a couple 700 Rems. Started trying custom rifles back in early '80s and have owned examples by many of the big name builders of that era as well as today's. Have a couple built by an accuracy, tactical type builder that shoot well but otherwise don't quite make the grade. Through trial and error I've weeded out all but four men who are capable of putting together a rifle that shoots very well with many loads and functions flawlessly. One is now retired but the others are building rifles that I'd trust on any hunt for any type of game. All build mainly classic type hunting rifles on M70 actions, stocked in fine wood or McMillan handles. I would pick one any day compared to any factory rifle I have owned or handled.


I'm guessing their names have already been mentioned on this thread. Or at least some of them. :-)

Last edited by pathfinder76; 09/20/16.
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That would be an accurate assumption in a couple of cases! So to answer the OP's question, yes there are builders out there who can in fact, make a rifle that shoots sub moa with a variety of loads and will feed/function flawlessly. No return trips necessary, no third party work needed. Take it out of the box, load some ammo and go hunt something. Only hangup for many is the cost, it was never cheap and these days some of the prices border on astronomical. If one can afford them and desires what they turn out, he will be rewarded with a lifetime investment in 100% reliable performance and workmanship using quality materials that can be passed down to the next generation. As Allen Day believed, I'd rather have 2 or 3 of these type rifles than an entire closet full of anything else.
But, if one cannot afford or doesn't care to invest the funds necessary to own something like this, he can happily hunt the world with a number of factory produced rifles. I have several friends that do just that, but they are strictly hunters and to them it's simply a tool. Browning A bolts, Sako A7s, current versions of M70s and Weatherbys are their choices and admittedly they get the job done. None of them even reload, shoot nothing but factory ammo.

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I have several custom rifles using different actions from a Ruger #1, Sako, Ruger tang safety M77, and a couple of Mauser actions. ALL are extremely accurate. One of the nice thing IMHO is that with a custom rifle you get it exactly how you want it. I'm taking my latest two (a 25-06 and a 275 Rigby) to Wyoming the first of October to be bloodied on antelope and mule deer. Caliber range is from 257 to 416 and all are a unique experience in and of themselves.

My factory rifles are two Weatherby Ultra lights (257WBY and 7mm-08) a Ruger #1 450-400 and a M77 270 some Coopers and a bunch of Pre 64 M70's. When it's time to go hunting and put game on the ground it's a choice between the Winchesters or the custom rifles.

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I have owned many a factory rifle that shot well, some excellent. Most were able to be accurized easily but some were a pain in the butt, always a crap shoot.
My most accurate reliable rifle I have bought and own and will never part with is Gen 1 Remington 5r mil spec 20" threaded barrel, Consistanly will produce 10 shot dime size groups at 100 yds wth no cool down feeding it FACTORY HORNADY 155 gr AMAX match ammo.
That rifle never needs anything but ammo.

Last edited by Gitsum; 09/21/16.
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I have owned, and still have almost all of them, many factory rifles by just about every major manufacturer as well as quite a few custom rifles. It is painful to think about but I have thrown away a lot of money on some customs. The reason for those mistakes was in choosing a poor builder. I have some factory rifles that will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA and cost a fraction of a custom. It may have taken a little time at the reloading bench bench but for me this is some solid therapy.

The reason for a custom is I prefer to have every component just so. While I will not bash anyone who did a less than great job, which is what I expect when shelling out $3k+ for a rifle, I will always promote those that do good work. One thing about choosing a custom smith is finding someone within driving distance. Building a good relationship is important when spending that kind of money. My go-to builder is Accurate Ordnance. However, I have very good experience with Spartan Precision (CA), Short Action Customs (Ohio), and Ed Delorge (LA).

I have spent many years and a fortune on expensive builds. I have used several different actions, barrels, scopes, etc. Spending more does not always get you what you want. In the case of wasted $$$ I share my experiences so you don't have to suffer the same.

For me, planning a build is part of the fun. My last elk hunt was planned for 4 years and I took a lot of time poking over every aspect of it, including each part of the rifle. Although the shot took less than one second, I felt like it was a years long journey. Very rewarding.

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I am a Hunter and a rifle junkie and I too have thrown away a lot of money on factory rifles in my case. Have kept every factory ammo shooter I have bought, some needed some accurizing but only those I could work on got a spot in my safe. I am now building my first rifle (REMAGE) setup from the ground up. Have had a number of people suggest I buy this factory rifle or that factory rifle.
It's not about finding another factory rifle that will shoot. It's about building a rifle that not only will shoot (hopefully) it's about building a rifle by myself (no smith) my way and exactly in the configuration that is exactly what I want and fits me to the "T" Then takin that rifle to the woods and harvesting game with MY RIFLE.

Unless I get a bad barrel I am 100% confident MY RIFLE will shoot when I am done.

And if I do get a bad barrel, I'll unscrew it and screw on another one.

Last edited by Gitsum; 09/21/16.
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Originally Posted by elkhunternm
Dakota M 76 7mm Dakota,it has shot every bullet I chose into itty-bitty groups and that includes 160 gr NP,150 gr NP,140 gr NBT and the only one it shot bad was the Winchester 150 gr Power Point.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Settled on the 140 gr NBT going at 3340 fps average.


Dang that's a good looking rifle!


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Two of my favorite custom jobs. A 275 Rigby [Linked Image]

a 7mm-08[Linked Image]

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Those are REAL nice. Love the CCH.....

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With customs you get what you pay for.

If you spend $2-3K for a completed gun you're getting a reassembly job and you get what you pay for. Most of these tend to be accurate depending upon the level of competency you get.

The 4 figure $$$$ guns- for fit finish and beautiful wood, with a rifle that will shoot kill zone accuracy 1-1.5". They are happy with that and say it is in the kill zone. Fit/finish is impeccable and they will feed in the instance you are hanging upside down in a tree.

IMO the best guns are made by the few who combine the accuracy and function. These guys go through and redo an action and then assemble for accuracy. You will spend $2-3K for the smithing alone. Wood or plastic barrels a la carte.

A little hyperbole to try to get the point across (which of course nobody on internet forums seem to get - it's either all black or white).

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This was during load development for the Rigby.[Linked Image][Linked Image]

wood on the 7MM-08
[Linked Image][Linked Image]

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The 7MM-08 target[Linked Image]
Both guns shoot very well. IMHO both of these as well as the others (all done by the same smith) are well worth every penny spent.

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So is there a market for a "Tweaksmith"?

Two Montana's on a shelf, one has had all the "24 hr tweaks" done, shoots MOA, has test target with 3 individual groups and factory ammo stated. The other hasn't been touched.

Would you pay the same price for both or even consider the unproven rifle?


I kinda like a sure thing myself...






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