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with the "all self defense pistol cartridges are the same" concept being in vogue these days (and promoted by the FBI) it seems most folks opt for the 9mm over the 45ACP even in 1911 type weapons. It seems fewer and fewer of the general shooting public choose the 45 over the 9mm it has become more of an aficionado's cartridge. I wonder will it fade away over time?
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Anything that's been around a hundred years or more has something going for it and is unlikely to fade away anytime soon. In addition, there will always be the allure of the "45", whether it be the ACP or the LC.
Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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I do! have a semi Auto and a single action in 45acp! can find ammo anywhere, and easy to reload!
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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.45 ACP is the easiest big bore brass to find/scrounge. Brass may be had for practically free and the brass seems to live FOREVER - even with completely obliterated/unreadable headstamps 
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That woman cop in Philly was shot 8 times with a 9mm and lived, thats reason enough for a 45 ACP.
Writing here is Prohibited by the authorities.
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That woman cop in Philly was shot 8 times with a 9mm and lived, thats reason enough for a 45 ACP. Shot where? I just looked it up, shoulder, arm and torso. She was seated in her car and was wearing a vest, shooter on the outside of car. I seriously doubt the outcome would have been any different with a .45 ACP.
Last edited by MOGC; 09/18/16.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Campfire Kahuna
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with the "all self defense pistol cartridges are the same" concept being in vogue these days (and promoted by the FBI) it seems most folks opt for the 9mm over the 45ACP even in 1911 type weapons. It seems fewer and fewer of the general shooting public choose the 45 over the 9mm it has become more of an aficionado's cartridge. I wonder will it fade away over time? 1911 platform and ease of procurement are the top two. It gets the job done on about anything in the lower 48 other than say, Griz. Can't say it is tops for a lot of hunting, but IME it would do the job if called upon and would be a good choice for self-defense on anything but Griz.
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Campfire Sage
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The main push for popularity of the .45 came in reaction to the old Assault Weapon Ban. Folks figured that if you are limited to ten round mags, might as well opt for a bigger pill. The main appeal of the 9mm was high cap mags. Taking that option away caused folks to consider the ballistic advantages of the big .45.
With the end of the AWB, the appeal of the .45 diminished. Only the real devotees of the big slug have held on to it.
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"Son over there we seen the 9 not work on the enemy but that ugly 1911 dropped'em every time.You should use that." Advice given to me a long time back.
Bangflop! another skinning job due to .260 and proper shot placement.
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The main push for popularity of the .45 came in reaction to the old Assault Weapon Ban. Folks figured that if you are limited to ten round mags, might as well opt for a bigger pill. The main appeal of the 9mm was high cap mags. Taking that option away caused folks to consider the ballistic advantages of the big .45. ……so you're saying that prior to the Clinton AWB, the .45 wasn't popular????? Really?????
With the end of the AWB, the appeal of the .45 diminished. Only the real devotees of the big slug have held on to it.
…..well, that's certainly a different take on the .45 vs 9mm debate, at least one that I've never heard before---but then, there's alot that I'm ignorant about, I guess. I was always a .45 devotee from the early days of IPSC when the .45 was used by EVERYONE except foreigners (Rhodesians and South Africans were especially tied to the Hi-Power). Tommy Campbell made the S&W Supergun in 9 and did quite well but only after he used a .45 to place in the first US Nationals in 77 in Colorado. I guess we didn't know at the time that the Clinton weapons ban would give the .45 legitimacy over the 9 :-) . When I went to the Thunder Ranch revolver class with Doc Rocket and he showed me his slide presentation on terminal ballistics, he convinced me that I had been placing too much faith in antiquated results (Thompson LaGarde, etc.). When another former .45 devotee that was doing LEO ballistic demonstrations for Hornady also confirmed the effectiveness of modern 9's (Critical Duty ammo, etc.) I realized that people ALOT smarter and more experienced than myself were ok with the 9. With 9's being significantly cheaper and easier to shoot than .45's, I've started practicing more and carrying 9's on a semi-regular basis…….I admit however that I frequently carry a Wiley Clapp Commander in .45 and always feel "better" about it than when carrying a G-19. Old prejudices die hard, I guess.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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I own 45s and don't own 9mms anymore. I don't have the itch to buy another handgun, so I'll live with the 45s. Easy to shoot, easy to reload for, and 8 rounds before reloading is enough for me.
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these kinds of topics always reminds me of a guy who if he is still alive, was kind of an interesting man, more ways than one. Advanced 1911 collector, hung out on the cmp forum.
He had the bad experience to be in a water soaked paddy/rice field in vietnam, V.C. all over the place, only effective weapon at the moment he had was a 1911. They were about ready to do him, he raised up an "boom" the 1911 worked. I think he still has that gun, or did have it.
It worked in the down and dirty, hard to get around experiences like that.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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That woman cop in Philly was shot 8 times with a 9mm and lived, thats reason enough for a 45 ACP. Yeah. Sure thing. https://www.policeone.com/police-he...p-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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I own 45s and don't own 9mms anymore. I don't have the itch to buy another handgun, so I'll live with the 45s. Easy to shoot, easy to reload for, and 8 rounds before reloading is enough for me.
Thanks for those words of wisdom. You dumb fugk. Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Dave,
You really need to expand your vocabulary beyond 6 word sentences and expletives.
Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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While I don't have a preference for the .45 ACP it's what I most often carry.
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Campfire Sage
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While I don't have a preference for the .45 ACP it's what I most often carry. Reasons??
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Dave,
You really need to expand your vocabulary beyond 6 word sentences and expletives.
Don Why?
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Campfire Ranger
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It seems despite our misperceptions that for a self defense gun 9mm is about the same as 45.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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It seems despite our misperceptions that for a self defense gun 9mm is about the same as 45. Yeah, I often shoot 9's in my 45's... 
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The 45 ACP goes bang and that's about the extent it. Generally defensive guns in the 45 ACP are bulkier and carry less rounds. As a cartridge it's slow, takes a $hit on barriers and ricochets off funny stuff the 9 and the 40 doesn't. Velocity gives you capability, whether a manufacture utilizes it in construction is another matter. The only other bigger joke as a defensive cartridge would be the 45 GAP (excluding 380s and below). As a hunting cartridge I think when you load the 45 ACP to 45 Super "levels" it's a decent hunting cartridge for an auto pistol.
The 45 ACP isn't going anywhere, it's one of the most popular auto handgun cartridges. I don't shoot any of mine much but I would like a Shield in it.
There are things a guy can do to make the 45 ACP more effective though. Here are a few:
1) Put a What Would JeffCooper Do (WWJD) bumper sticker on your vehicle.
2) Put a DVC sticker under that.
3) Open Carry ( your 1911 duh) in a thick leather pancake holster.
4) Tell people you are carrying your 1911 in condition 3 and be sure to tell them you don't "give a $hit".
5) Nod at and fantasize about how women in line at 7/11 think you are protecting them, then post it on an open carry forum.
6) Flip your belt buckle down and use it as a dinner plate at Luby's.
That last one I am not sure there is causality but there is some sort of correlation.
Last edited by smallfry; 09/19/16.
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The 45 ACP goes bang and that's about the extent it. Generally defensive guns in the 45 ACP are bulkier and carry less rounds. As a cartridge it's slow, takes a $hit on barriers and ricochets off funny stuff the 9 and the 40 doesn't. Velocity gives you capability, whether a manufacture utilizes it in construction is another matter. The only other bigger joke as a defensive cartridge would be the 45 GAP (excluding 380s and below). As a hunting cartridge I think when you load the 45 ACP to 45 Super "levels" it's a decent hunting cartridge for an auto pistol.
The 45 ACP isn't going anywhere, it's one of the most popular auto handgun cartridges. I don't shoot any of mine much but I would like a Shield in it.
There are things a guy can do to make the 45 ACP more effective though. Here are a few:
1) Put a What Would JeffCooper Do (WWJD) bumper sticker on your vehicle.
2) Put a DVC sticker under that.
3) Open Carry ( your 1911 duh) in a thick leather pancake holster.
4) Tell people you are carrying your 1911 in condition 3 and be sure to tell them you don't "give a $hit".
5) Nod at and fantasize about how women in line at 7/11 think you are protecting them, then post it on an open carry forum.
6) Flip your belt buckle down and use it as a dinner plate at Luby's.
That last one I am not sure there is causality but there is some sort of correlation.
Have you ever seen the results on bodies of a 45 Gap? I'm certain those that I have seen would disagree with you thinking it was a joke. Our troopers carried it for a while and most of the guys really liked it, but wanted more capacity so went to the G21, now they carry a Sig P227
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Campfire Ranger
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While I don't have a preference for the .45 ACP it's what I most often carry. Reasons?? I consider the .45 ACP to be in most ways THE benchmark cartridge for a combat handgun. But 9mm's terminal performance is very close to the .45 ACP, enough so that on living humans, it doesn't seem to make much of a meaningful difference...and that could be said for all medium power combat handgun cartridges. So since the terminal performance is adequate, now it's time to look at other things such as the gun. 9mm's tend to be more compact, and thinner, with better ergonomics. And of course there's the magazine capacity, which is typically twice that of a .45 ACP. And while the .45 may have a slight edge in terminal performance, it's nowhere near twice as effective as a 9mm, so having twice the capacity wins over a very slight edge in terminal performance. Same can be said for the other common handgun cartridges. 9mm will do what they all do, but can do it with more rounds in the magazine. Recoil is lighter with 9mm (not that I find a .45 ACP's recoil objectionable in the least), and finally ammunition cost is lower so you can shoot more. But honestly where I live, I don't find a hi-cap magazine a must, so my personal needs can be satisfied with an 8 round magazine. The LW Commander is thin, light, accurate, easy to shoot well, and very reliable; well, that meets my needs just fine. My S&W M1911PD LW Commander...Will remain my carry gun until my daughter takes it away in December. ![[Linked Image]](http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i132/k3030ai/IMG_1054_zpsaiu3lklo.jpg)
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I don't dispute that GAPs ballistics at all and again I would rather have a 45 ACP than a GAP.
Last edited by smallfry; 09/19/16.
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Campfire Ranger
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The 45 ACP goes bang and that's about the extent it. Generally defensive guns in the 45 ACP are bulkier and carry less rounds. As a cartridge it's slow, takes a $hit on barriers and ricochets off funny stuff the 9 and the 40 doesn't. Velocity gives you capability, whether a manufacture utilizes it in construction is another matter. The only other bigger joke as a defensive cartridge would be the 45 GAP (excluding 380s and below). As a hunting cartridge I think when you load the 45 ACP to 45 Super "levels" it's a decent hunting cartridge for an auto pistol.
The 45 ACP isn't going anywhere, it's one of the most popular auto handgun cartridges. I don't shoot any of mine much but I would like a Shield in it.
There are things a guy can do to make the 45 ACP more effective though. Here are a few:
1) Put a What Would JeffCooper Do (WWJD) bumper sticker on your vehicle.
2) Put a DVC sticker under that.
3) Open Carry ( your 1911 duh) in a thick leather pancake holster.
4) Tell people you are carrying your 1911 in condition 3 and be sure to tell them you don't "give a $hit".
5) Nod at and fantasize about how women in line at 7/11 think you are protecting them, then post it on an open carry forum.
6) Flip your belt buckle down and use it as a dinner plate at Luby's.
That last one I am not sure there is causality but there is some sort of correlation.
Are you being sarcastic and I'm just missing it? Or are you really that dense?
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Don't let it strike a nerve, I own 1911s and 45s too.
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Campfire Ranger
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It seems despite our misperceptions that for a self defense gun 9mm is about the same as 45. 9mm is not a .45 ACP, but the difference between the two on living human flesh is a very small difference. In most categories the .45 ACP has the edge in terminal performance, but it's not a big edge. In most guns the difference in capacity is right around double in favor of the 9mm. To my mind, to justify the .45 ACP on terminal performance, then you should be able to make the case that the .45 ACP is twice as effective as the 9mm, and you just can't make such a case. Again, this is for self defense against humans. Most of the "edge" is psychological, and for some that can mean a lot. Confidence is a very nice thing to have going into a fight. Visually the difference between the two cartridges is very striking, and there are a LOT of people who have a real problem overcoming that. It is hard to believe that a cartridge that appears to be about 1/2 the size will actually produce a fairly similar wound. And there is a difference in the diameter of fully expanded bullets, and on paper it's a BIG difference. And many have a hard time believing that such a large difference actually doesn't really get you much on living, breathing, humans. 9mm's often expand to just over .50, and .45's often expand to around .70-ish. That's a pretty significant difference on paper. On living tissue, we've learned that the .50 seems to be perfectly adequate and a 50% larger hole doesn't equate to 50% "better" stopping power. But there are many who just refuse to believe that what logically works out with math, doesn't correlate to what it should be when you throw in living humans. And I'll admit, I'm one of those who struggled with that for a long time. For a few years I carried a .45 ACP because I thought I "needed" the .45. Then I went up to a S&W 1076 in 10mm because I thought I "needed" the additional power. When I became a medic and started treating actual shooting victims, that's when my ideas on what is "needed" actually changed.
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Campfire Sage
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Dave,
You really need to expand your vocabulary beyond 6 word sentences and expletives.
Don New York state is a schit hole. How's that? Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Outfitter
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That woman cop in Philly was shot 8 times with a 9mm and lived, thats reason enough for a 45 ACP. "Son over there we seen the 9 not work on the enemy but that ugly 1911 dropped'em every time.You should use that." Advice given to me a long time back. As long as mental giants like these two are buying guns, .45s will still be in demand.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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nice gun, CT laser grips!
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Campfire Ranger
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do I understand you correctly I mean in that what your trying to say is that you can spend $1800 on a nice 1911, buy $20/50 practice ammo and you don't have twice what a less than 1/3 the price G19 and $13.00 practice ammo will get you? I mean do I understand what your saying or did I miss your point.
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Campfire Sage
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While I don't have a preference for the .45 ACP it's what I most often carry. Reasons?? I consider the .45 ACP to be in most ways THE benchmark cartridge for a combat handgun. But 9mm's terminal performance is very close to the .45 ACP, enough so that on living humans, it doesn't seem to make much of a meaningful difference...and that could be said for all medium power combat handgun cartridges. So since the terminal performance is adequate, now it's time to look at other things such as the gun. 9mm's tend to be more compact, and thinner, with better ergonomics. And of course there's the magazine capacity, which is typically twice that of a .45 ACP. And while the .45 may have a slight edge in terminal performance, it's nowhere near twice as effective as a 9mm, so having twice the capacity wins over a very slight edge in terminal performance. Same can be said for the other common handgun cartridges. 9mm will do what they all do, but can do it with more rounds in the magazine. Recoil is lighter with 9mm (not that I find a .45 ACP's recoil objectionable in the least), and finally ammunition cost is lower so you can shoot more. But honestly where I live, I don't find a hi-cap magazine a must, so my personal needs can be satisfied with an 8 round magazine. The LW Commander is thin, light, accurate, easy to shoot well, and very reliable; well, that meets my needs just fine. My S&W M1911PD LW Commander...Will remain my carry gun until my daughter takes it away in December. I agree with your statements here. PS I have the same Commander. I don't think of myself as having it, since I have it for sale on consignment at the local gun shop.
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Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Although it has been said that the .45 doesn't have a home in competition anymore, holds too few rounds in 1911 trim, is too fat in double stack trim, ammo is too expensive, it is too slow, and the 9 is 'just as good', I still like it.
I suppose the biggest part of it is I find it more enjoyable to shoot at the range. That being said, I do own more 9's than .45's and I own no .40's (save a 10mm).
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Campfire Ranger
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While I don't have a preference for the .45 ACP it's what I most often carry. Reasons?? I consider the .45 ACP to be in most ways THE benchmark cartridge for a combat handgun. But 9mm's terminal performance is very close to the .45 ACP, enough so that on living humans, it doesn't seem to make much of a meaningful difference...and that could be said for all medium power combat handgun cartridges. So since the terminal performance is adequate, now it's time to look at other things such as the gun. 9mm's tend to be more compact, and thinner, with better ergonomics. And of course there's the magazine capacity, which is typically twice that of a .45 ACP. And while the .45 may have a slight edge in terminal performance, it's nowhere near twice as effective as a 9mm, so having twice the capacity wins over a very slight edge in terminal performance. Same can be said for the other common handgun cartridges. 9mm will do what they all do, but can do it with more rounds in the magazine. Recoil is lighter with 9mm (not that I find a .45 ACP's recoil objectionable in the least), and finally ammunition cost is lower so you can shoot more. But honestly where I live, I don't find a hi-cap magazine a must, so my personal needs can be satisfied with an 8 round magazine. The LW Commander is thin, light, accurate, easy to shoot well, and very reliable; well, that meets my needs just fine. My S&W M1911PD LW Commander...Will remain my carry gun until my daughter takes it away in December. I agree with your statements here. PS I have the same Commander. I don't think of myself as having it, since I have it for sale on consignment at the local gun shop. Man, Wish I knew that before I bought 3 guns this month. Would have been easier to just buy my daughter her own rather than parting with mine. Or give her mine, and replace it with yours.
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Campfire Ranger
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Although it has been said that the .45 doesn't have a home in competition anymore, holds too few rounds in 1911 trim, is too fat in double stack trim, ammo is too expensive, it is too slow, and the 9 is 'just as good', I still like it.
I suppose the biggest part of it is I find it more enjoyable to shoot at the range. That being said, I do own more 9's than .45's and I own no .40's (save a 10mm). I finally bought my first .40, but it was with the intention of converting it to 9mm, and making it a multi-caliber handgun (9mm, .357 Sig, .40). I'm not a .40 fan. The cartridge is fine, but when you put it in a 9mm sized handgun, they tend to recoil more than a .45 ACP...so if that's going to be the case, then I'd rather just have the .45 ACP.
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actually kevin, i have two glocks set up just as you describe with multiple barrels. I shoot it, but have never been fond of the .40 for some reason. having said that i like the 10mm, the 38wcf 41mag, 41special, so go figure.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Campfire Ranger
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Dave,
You really need to expand your vocabulary beyond 6 word sentences and expletives.
Don New York state is a schit hole. How's that? Dave I dam'd near spit my chew across the room.
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Campfire Ranger
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If I carry a 45,9,40 or 10mm, I don't care. But one thing I like about the 45acp the most is the recoil pulse (Glock).
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I worked in a federal prison for 17 years. I cannot begin to tell you the number of convicts walking around with 9mm scars. One I remembered appeared to have had a full magazine emptied into his torso.
I saw so many 9mm scars on convicts that when I purchased my own handguns I purchased a .45 ACP. I saw on convict with a .38 Special slug still lodged in his neck. He walked around really [bleep] up. I bought a 38 snubbie too.
The only .45 scar I saw was a convict with a very wide and long scar from the shoulder to his forearm. When he was a teenager he was stealing an "old timer's" wheels and the "old timer" shot him with a 45 Colt. Nasty scar.
That's all I had to see.
Dan
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Campfire Tracker
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I don't see the value of having this debate ... again. Those who believe that a 9mm is almost as effective as a 45ACP will have a variety of justifications for that position.
For those of us who know that the 45ACP is every bit as effective as a 45ACP, we'll just keep carrying what we know works.
I see no need to try to convince anybody to do anything they don't want to when it comes to providing for their own and their familiy's defense. It's a free country still, after all.
Last edited by Wildcatter264; 09/19/16.
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry
Deus vult!
Rhodesians all now
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I worked in a federal prison for 17 years. I cannot begin to tell you the number of convicts walking around with 9mm scars. One I remembered appeared to have had a full magazine emptied into his torso.
I saw so many 9mm scars on convicts that when I purchased my own handguns I purchased a .45 ACP. That's because in the hood, they keep their "nines" loaded with Winchester White Box FMJ 9mm.
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Campfire Sage
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I don't see the value of having this debate ... again. Those who believe that a 9mm is almost as effective as a 45ACP will have a variety of justifications for that position.
For those of us who know that the 45ACP is every bit as a 45ACP, we'll just keep carrying what we know works.
I see no need to try to convince anybody to do anything they don't want to when it comes to providing for their own and their familiy's defense. It's a free country still, after all. It's likely a bit more of a reliable stopper than 9mm, but 9mm permits twice the capacity at (let's say) 90% the stopping reliability. So it all depends on how much weight you put into stopping power vs capacity in your decision making. Seems like you'd have to weight it 90% on the side of stopping power vs capacity to choose the .45 ACP over the 9mm, assuming you're willing to carry a substantial sidearm on a proper belt/holster combo. If all you will carry anyway is a single stack compact handgun, then the .45 ACP makes perfect sense, assuming you shoot it about as well.
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I prefer the 45acp over the 9mm because it handles cast bullets better. A 255gr flat point 45cal bullet doesn't need to expand to work well. My 45's push the 255 to 800 to 850 fps. Spring change and square firing pin stop with super brass and you get 900 to 1000fps with same bullet. May have issues with over-penetration though Most of my time is spent in the woods. City use a hi capacity 9mm makes a lot of sense.
Originally Posted by Judman
PS, if you think Trump is “good” you’re way stupider than I thought! Haha
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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I prefer the 45acp over the 9mm because it handles cast bullets better. A 255gr flat point 45cal bullet doesn't need to expand to work well. My 45's push the 255 to 800 to 850 fps. Spring change and square firing pin stop with super brass and you get 900 to 1000fps with same bullet. May have issues with over-penetration though Most of my time is spent in the woods. City use a hi capacity 9mm makes a lot of sense. Practically everything you wrote here parallels my situation and explains my preference for the 45 Colt.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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I prefer the 45acp over the 9mm because it handles cast bullets better. A 255gr flat point 45cal bullet doesn't need to expand to work well. My 45's push the 255 to 800 to 850 fps. Spring change and square firing pin stop with super brass and you get 900 to 1000fps with same bullet. May have issues with over-penetration though Most of my time is spent in the woods. City use a hi capacity 9mm makes a lot of sense. Practically everything you wrote here parallels my situation and explains my preference for the 45 Colt. i have had people, mostly the hicap, spray and pray types, give me grief about the 45colt, and i make a variety of projectiles for them. My favorite is that 270grain rcbs scovill design, in a hollow point pentad, and solid. At around 950fps or a little more. I have ran it to 1100fps. I think it would take care of most anything.
Last edited by RoninPhx; 09/19/16.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Jimmy,
I still like the .45 for a multitude of reasons.
A primary one is that I am an outdoorsman. In carrying a sidearm in the mountains, for both hunting, and defense against predators, I prefer a bigger projectile, and a .45 caliber can deliver that. A good 230 grain or 250/255 grain cast flat point is pretty big medicine.
Certain platforms like the G30S and the classic 1911 fill roles for me.
Much like the G19 and G17 fill roles in urban environments, certain big bores fill roles elsewhere, and I simply don't see the .45 ever fading from popularity any time soon.
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Not too many are arguing for the old "split the difference" solution, referring to the .40 S&W. I used to hear that a lot.
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Not too many are arguing for the old "split the difference" solution, referring to the .40 S&W. I used to hear that a lot. It is my long favorite for compact carry guns and I still use it. Works just fine on men, 120 pound attack dogs in full charge and deer too. Not guessing about any of that. Many folks are all about the nine these days and I just don't see any need to convert them.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Border Patrol seemed to like the 40 S&W and were often the LE agency with the most shootings under their belt year to year! The lowly 155 grain JHP seemed to work very well for them.
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I do. Cause they do not make a 46 and a 500 is too big ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/IxLqEYqh.jpg)
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it is interesting that you find most people considering only the high capacity magazine 9mm guns. The 9mm is not as popular in 1911 style guns. Sometimes it makes me think that if the glock had not come along the 9mm would never have become as popular as it has. The good news is that the 9mm is probably responsible for the push for better bullet technology.
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Campfire Kahuna
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it is interesting that you find most people considering only the high capacity magazine 9mm guns. The 9mm is not as popular in 1911 style guns. Sometimes it makes me think that if the glock had not come along the 9mm would never have become as popular as it has. The good news is that the 9mm is probably responsible for the push for better bullet technology. The adoption of the Beretta M9 is what "made" the 9mm in the USA. It had always been fairly popular, but the Beretta put it over the top. It didn't hurt any that the police forces in the USA were in the midst of being militarized and many adopted the cartridge following the military.
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Campfire Sage
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Here are two big reasons for the start of the popularity of the double stack 9mm, particularly the Beretta 92. ![[Linked Image]](http://m5.paperblog.com/i/75/754384/die-hard-2-L-8ub00i.jpeg) ![[Linked Image]](http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/7/73/LW2_001.JPG/600px-LW2_001.JPG)
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That makes me want to run out and buy a Beretta - I think.
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That makes me want to run out and buy a Beretta - I think. It did for a lot of people. Not me. I've never had one, although recently I purchased the Taurus version of it. When I first started buying handguns back in 1980, you couldn't find a Smith & Wesson Model 29 for anything. They were back ordered for years. Why? Because it was Harry's gun. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/4/4b/DH3S%26W29-2.jpg/400px-DH3S%26W29-2.jpg)
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I found the character of Harry Callahan a lot more compelling than those others. 
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If you are basing your choice on a movie, watch Last Man Standing with Bruce Willis.
He has a 1911 in each hand.
Why would anyone spend $1800 on one?
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Ranger
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What can an $1800 45ACP 1911 do that a $500 45 ACP shield not do? 
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That makes me want to run out and buy a Beretta - I think. Along with some "rubbers"
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For bullseye competition, plinking and small game hunting, I like the .38 Special and .45 ACP rounds. As a reloader, for those uses, I use lead bullets and small charges of fast-burning handgun powders for 20,000 PSI pressures or lower. I don't need high velocities for those uses, and the relatively low pressures mean that my brass lasts and lasts. The taper crimp that .45 ACP loads require means that my .45 ACP brass outlasts my .38 Special brass, partly offsetting the higher cost of .45 lead bullets. It's a small thing, but every little bit of savings helps. As a retiree on a fixed income, low costs make my recreational handgun shooting possible.
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What can an $1800 45ACP 1911 do that a $500 45 ACP shield not do? Jam, come off safe accidentally, be harder to conceal but other than that, not much else... Just kidding. Well kinda kidding, I think my 1911 is about sorted out but I still prefer my M&P 45 to it and am also thinking of a Shield in 45. I like both the 9MM and 45ACP with both loaded right, they both work. No need to choose one over the other, you should have both.
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I love the 45 ACP. Nothing feels more natural in my hand. I own and shoot a bunch of double and single-stack 9mms, and a couple of 40s, but a 45 1911 is my favorite platform. ![[Linked Image]](http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/BeNBadRacing/20160521_170935_zpsdxfypjti.jpg) Why? 1) I have a What Would JeffCooper Do (WWJD) bumper sticker on my vehicle. 2) I have a DVC sticker under that. 3) I like to open carry (my 1911 duh) in a thick leather pancake holster. 4) I tell people i am carrying my 1911 in condition 3 and I don't "give a $hit". 5) I nod at women in line at 7/11. They think I am protecting them ( I posted about it here). 6) I'm not from Texas, but I have some big belt buckles.
Last edited by 1Nut; 09/20/16.
Nut
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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What can an $1800 45ACP 1911 do that a $500 45 ACP shield not do? Piss you off because it won't run 100%.
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hahahahaahaha! You and TWR are two realists, neither one of you is going to last long on the interewebs.
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If you are basing your choice on a movie, watch Last Man Standing with Bruce Willis.
He has a 1911 in each hand.
Why would anyone spend $1800 on one? ![[Linked Image]](http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/toody11/image.jpg1_zpsokderwqo.jpg)
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I can't say that I prefer it overall. But I would prefer not to be without it.
There are a few legitimate reasons to at least keep a .45 around. One of those is the same reason I still have and use revolvers. Options are good to have in case gun laws go sideways or ammo availability is otherwise limited.
There was an admittedly short time here not too long ago that it was impossible to find any auto pistol ammo in hollwpoint. For an even longer time, the only HP I could find on the shelves was of questionable quality. During that time, I carried a .45 almost exclusively. Even now, I often find the factory 9mm HP selection somewhat spotty at times.
Then there is the fact that the expansion required for 9mm performance to be an equal to .45 - although more reliable than ever today - cannot be guaranteed.
Lately, I carry a 9mm most of the time - for reasons having nothing to do with the caliber itself. It's more about the platform, and my current physical limitation.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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What can an $1800 45ACP 1911 do that a $500 45 ACP shield not do? ![[Linked Image]](http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee387/gwdaddio/gifs/Tank1911_zps01f96d2f.gif)
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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First time I saw Saving Private Ryan, that scene fooled me...for about 2 seconds.
Great scene none the less.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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I love the 45 ACP. Nothing feels more natural in my hand. I own and shoot a bunch of double and single-stack 9mms, and a couple of 40s, but a 45 1911 is my favorite platform. Why? 1) I have a What Would JeffCooper Do (WWJD) bumper sticker on my vehicle. 2) I have a DVC sticker under that. 3) I like to open carry (my 1911 duh) in a thick leather pancake holster. 4) I tell people i am carrying my 1911 in condition 3 and I don't "give a $hit". 5) I nod at women in line at 7/11. They think I am protecting them ( I posted about it here). 6) I'm not from Texas, but I have some big belt buckles. LMAO #5 I swear is repeated on a half dozen sites weekly. I don't doubt you I just don't recall reading your post! Good laugh.
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When we got the battalion scores back from training, before being sent to Vietnam, only 2 men qualified expert: the XO, with a custom smith-ed 1911 and me, with a lucky draw from the armorer.
The 1911 is the single most comfortable and easy-to-shoot-well handgun I've ever fired. Perhaps my deepest regret, pertaining to firearms I let get away from me during desperate times, was a pre-Series 70 National Match that had been further improved by Pachmyr.
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon
"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg
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9mm "Europellet" vs .45 "Slug" ------Hmmmmmm
They both have their merits.
Be confident in what you carry.
...and drink good beer.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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That makes me want to run out and buy a Beretta - I think. I've always enjoyed mine.
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Because I like shooting my 1911 and my Blackhawk.
Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
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Jimmyp, Maybe I'm a little too simple, but it seems that the bigger the wound channel - the higher the probability of hitting something vital!!! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Jimmyp, Maybe I'm a little too simple, but it seems that the bigger the wound channel - the higher the probability of hitting something vital!!! memtb Yep. Bodies aren't homogeneous gelatin. That larger expanded bullet is more likely to catch something vital, and cut more blood vessels. That said, as a practical matter, the 9 makes sense in many cases, and as results have shown, modern ammo makes it effective.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Shot a lot of bullets at steel plates. The .45acp was always superior at knocking them off the pillars. I figured, based on that alone, transferring mass to the target had to equate to something beneficial, everything else being equal.
Man is not a game animal. If they know they've been hit, I really believe you stand a greater chance of having them decide to quit fighting. I'd rather they realize they've been smacked and quit, than keep shooting while they bleed out. Plus, the same can be said about bullets for the .45acp. They expand pretty reliably too.
I don't believe there is any advantage to the 9mm, other than round count available in most platforms. That's not taking away from the great platforms, but in truth, I believe in Cooper's mantra, "Accuracy, Power, Speed."
When I was stationed in Germany, we were doing a training day with some German GSG9 types and later in the day, I was burning off some ammo all alone on the range. Drawing my AFOSI Compact .45 (Commander slide/barrel, Officer's sized frame - before there was a Colt Officer's Model) from concealment and double tapping the targets. When I finished, I discovered a small group of GSG9 members had gathered to watch me. I had mixed it up, torso/head, head/head, torso/torso etc, about 5 mags worth. I was really in sync that day and killing the targets with nice tight clusters.
They hadn't had much experience with the .45acp and I let them all take a couple of shots. They were duly impressed with the gun and round, compared to the Sigs they were carrying in 9mm. As they were leaving, one mentioned that he could tell my gun was more "powerful" than theirs. Then he smiled and said, "You are very fast."
So, I had all three of Cooper's mantra down pat.
I have 9mms, but I mostly carry something in .45acp, whether it be a 1911 compact, or my XD-S.
Last edited by Dan_Chamberlain; 09/20/16.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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Today's Meth Heads are like Opiated Philippine Infantry.
The .45 was designed to take care of that old problem face to face.
Shock sets in faster when your down and out.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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I prefer the 45 over 9mm and 40 S&W-because it is better in almost every category.
I don't prefer it over the 357, 41 Mag, 44 Spec, 44 Mag, 38 Spec, and the new 41 Spec, because it is inferior to all but the 38 in almost every category. I like the 38 because it comes in many revolvers and can be shot in 357's.
I prefer the 45 Colt, 454, 460, & 500 to the acp to. But that preference is not as strong.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Do some of you think about your kidneys working while you take a piss??? Seems a lot of people would be better off spending time getting more proficient with their sidearm than arguing/trying to defend its merits. I 'prefer' the .45....when I want to carry my 30s. (Or 41) I 'prefer' the 9mm....when I'm in the mood for my 19 or 26. When I'm deciding what to carry that day it comes down to my mood. That's it. Period. Whatever I'm carrying, I'm not walking around (or standing around in indecision) thinking about 'stopping power', mag capacity, or wondering where I can get reliable GSW trauma statistics. For schits sake, find a gun you like the feel of, actually practice to become proficient with said firearm, stoke it with high quality SD ammo (easy to do nowadays) practice situational awareness (your best defense) and find something more constructive to argue about....like the gayness of all things .277". 
It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...
Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.
Stupidity has no average...
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Do some of you think about your kidneys working while you take a piss??? Seems a lot of people would be better off spending time getting more proficient with their sidearm than arguing/trying to defend its merits. I 'prefer' the .45....when I want to carry my 30s. (Or 41) I 'prefer' the 9mm....when I'm in the mood for my 19 or 26. When I'm deciding what to carry that day it comes down to my mood. That's it. Period. Whatever I'm carrying, I'm not walking around (or standing around in indecision) thinking about 'stopping power', mag capacity, or wondering where I can get reliable GSW trauma statistics. For schits sake, find a gun you like the feel of, actually practice to become proficient with said firearm, stoke it with high quality SD ammo (easy to do nowadays) practice situational awareness (your best defense) and find something more constructive to argue about....like the gayness of all things .277". You said the same thing I said. But in a much better way.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Old School Cool
Accurate
Soft Shooting
Effective
Component Availability
1911's
Trump Won!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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When we got the battalion scores back from training, before being sent to Vietnam, only 2 men qualified expert: the XO, with a custom smith-ed 1911 and me, with a lucky draw from the armorer.
The 1911 is the single most comfortable and easy-to-shoot-well handgun I've ever fired. Perhaps my deepest regret, pertaining to firearms I let get away from me during desperate times, was a pre-Series 70 National Match that had been further improved by Pachmyr.
pal, I'll bet that one does hurt. Better get you a WC Commander or a Kobra Carry to ease the pain.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want. Rehabilitation is way overrated. Orwell wasn't wrong. GOA member disappointed NRA member 24HCF SEARCH
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I'll simply never get over that horrible blunder. Next worse perhaps was giving up a mint Colt Woodsman that, like the 1911, seemed custom made to fit my hand and were of such impeccable workmanship and the gun makers' art. Both of which made me shoot well.
OT--Now my only handgun is a S&W 640 with speed-loader; purely personal self protection. I freely admit I still cannot shoot this well, no matter Teddy Jacobson's custom fitting. It's not the gun, except for the short sight radius. One day I'll run across someone, could even be local LE, who'll freely help me get more professional training with it, as my bucket list includes completely mastering its use. Though, at 72, my physical and visual abilities are far from those of my youth.
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon
"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg
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I like my 45s. I also like my 357s. The 9mm is OK. If I got a 9mm it would be a small one like the SIG 938. I didn't like the M-9.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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I like em all. I look at the 9mm as a 38 special in a smaller package with more than 6 rounds on tap. Kinda hard not to like it in that light.
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45 acp. Because of the cost of ammo I started shooting 9mms early this year. I've put around 2,000 rounds through a Glock 19 & CZ 75 each. I like both guns but so far I shoot my Springfield 1911 45acp a lot better.
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I like em all. I look at the 9mm as a 38 special in a smaller package with more than 6 rounds on tap. Kinda hard not to like it in that light. Exactly. When all the FIB studies and internet BS are washed off the 'modern' 9mm, you have a 38+P compacted to fit lots of them in a magazine.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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My comment is still valid, most folks that choose a 9mm are always considering either a high capacity gun or a small CCW gun. I have a hard time justifying a 9mm in a 9 shot commander or G19 sized gun.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Prefer is probably a strong word.
I don't currently own one but did own a few. I certainly do not feel somehow disadvantaged when owning/carrying one. Very confident that if I needed to put it to work - it will work.
I currently have and carry a G19. Same deal - confident it will do what I need it to do. I don't prefer a 9mm either tho. Got a good deal on the G19 - it goes bang every time.
I got good deals on my 1911's at the time. All of them went bang - every time. No bs, no qualifiers, - never had a single malfunction. 2 Kimbers, 2 Colts (tho one was in 38 Super - a round I don't prefer but have a lot of affection for)
So at the end - I prefer whatever works. I happen to like my Glock, I loved my 1911's, I like my Vaquero in 45 Colt.
I can't really see myself buying any pistols other than maybe another Glock or 1911 or revolvers. Brother has a M&P, I've shot Sigs etc - meh, didn't fall in love with any of them.
Me
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While I have a Sig 228 that is close to the 19 size, I don't feel under gunned with it. The water jug tests with 147 +p HST a 124 +p GD's we did last night made me smile.
But I mostly agree that high capacity or small concealable guns are where the 9 is best.
They do also make 45 +p HST ammo that can't be any worse and even offer the Shield in 45... We don't have to choose one or the other.
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While I have a Sig 228 that is close to the 19 size, I don't feel under gunned with it. The water jug tests with 147 +p HST a 124 +p GD's we did last night made me smile.
But I mostly agree that high capacity or small concealable guns are where the 9 is best.
They do also make 45 +p HST ammo that can't be any worse and even offer the Shield in 45... We don't have to choose one or the other. You keep talking cray-cray schidt like THAT and you will crash the internet 
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Some rambling thoughts I'll put out here. Perhaps the more experience will correct me if my thought process is wrong.
The 9mm got a lot of R&D to improve the bullet technology because it needed the help the most . Wasn't that part of the reason for the invention of the 40S&W/10mm?
So the cheaper cost factor of 9mm is mitigated somewhat by the requirement of 9mm needing to use premium bonded hollow point ammo, usually in +p or +p+ format to help level and narrow the play field.
The lower recoil is also offset some by the higher recoil of the +p and +p+ ammo requirement, not to mention I'd think that it would put more wear & tear on your handgun.
Granted the recoil may still be lower than 45acp but not as much as initially made out to believe?
Also the recent trend toward smaller single stack 9mm and their corresponding lighter weight while helping with concealment also compounds the recoil especially with those +p or +p+ ammo.
The trend of single stack 9mm neuters the inherent advantage of high capacity of the 9mm, IMHO.
The 9mm has made great strides in it's development to narrowed the performance gap, I think the 45acp is still a viable round despite it losing the popularity contest.
With all that stuff said.
I like the 45acp because of the platform, the 1911.
Since I like the 1911, I will practice with it and shoot it more.
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Some rambling thoughts I'll put out here. Perhaps the more experience will correct me if my thought process is wrong.
The 9mm got a lot of R&D to improve the bullet technology because it needed the help the most . Wasn't that part of the reason for the invention of the 40S&W/10mm?
So the cheaper cost factor of 9mm is mitigated somewhat by the requirement of 9mm needing to use premium bonded hollow point ammo, usually in +p or +p+ format to help level and narrow the play field.
The lower recoil is also offset some by the higher recoil of the +p and +p+ ammo requirement, not to mention I'd think that it would put more wear & tear on your handgun.
Granted the recoil may still be lower than 45acp but not as much as initially made out to believe?
Also the recent trend toward smaller single stack 9mm and their corresponding lighter weight while helping with concealment also compounds the recoil especially with those +p or +p+ ammo.
The trend of single stack 9mm neuters the inherent advantage of high capacity of the 9mm, IMHO.
The 9mm has made great strides in it's development to narrowed the performance gap, I think the 45acp is still a viable round despite it losing the popularity contest.
With all that stuff said.
I like the 45acp because of the platform, the 1911.
Since I like the 1911, I will practice with it and shoot it more.
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I read a lot of Guns and Ammo magazines as a young man.
COL. JEFF COOPER probably is responsible.
If you look at the 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtray" loads it is hard to carry anything else.
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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I read a lot of Guns and Ammo magazines as a young man.
COL. JEFF COOPER probably is responsible.
If you look at the 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtray" loads it is hard to carry anything else.
whelennut Or you could come into the 21st century and use bullets that work much better. The "Flying Ashtray" has caused feed issues in many guns, had a reputation for spotty expansion, and often insufficient penetration. But when it does expand, the expansion is very impressive. But a bullet needs to do a lot more than just expand.
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I read a lot of Guns and Ammo magazines as a young man.
COL. JEFF COOPER probably is responsible.
If you look at the 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtray" loads it is hard to carry anything else.
whelennut Correct: They have made great improvements in bullets over the years. Really helped the 9mm perform better. But those same improvements went in to .45 bullets also. From hardcast to flying ashtrays, it is still better to start out at .451" Know your gun. Keep shooting it. .....and have a beer.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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I like em all. I look at the 9mm as a 38 special in a smaller package with more than 6 rounds on tap. Kinda hard not to like it in that light. Same here, although hot 9mm in a modern pistol is a good step up in ballistics from 38 Special +P in my experience, if you're comparing guns of similar size, and that's not counting on extra ammo capacity. It is funny how some guys feel just fine with 5 shots of 38 Special, but turn up their noses at a 9mm. I started loading with the .45 Auto, and still enjoy it. It has advantages in certain areas, and the 9mm has advantages in others. Both are good, and seem to get along fine in my holsters. The .45 sometimes has an advantage in penetrating through meat (not always), but the 9mm definitely has an advantage penetrating hard surfaces.
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My comment is still valid, most folks that choose a 9mm are always considering either a high capacity gun or a small CCW gun. I have a hard time justifying a 9mm in a 9 shot commander or G19 sized gun. A G19 holds 16 rounds. That's high cap. The original high cap 9mm was the Browning High Power, that held 14 rounds.
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So the cheaper cost factor of 9mm is mitigated somewhat by the requirement of 9mm needing to use premium bonded hollow point ammo, usually in +p or +p+ format to help level and narrow the play field. The vast vast majority of 9mm shooting is done with "range ammo," which is cheap. Few use premium stuff for that. It's in training that one enjoys the ammo discount vs .45 ACP.
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With all the BS about all cartridges are the same.
It makes you wonder if the big shots at the FBI have ever taken a Physics class?
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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I read a lot of Guns and Ammo magazines as a young man.
COL. JEFF COOPER probably is responsible.
If you look at the 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtray" loads it is hard to carry anything else.
whelennut Or you could come into the 21st century and use bullets that work much better. The "Flying Ashtray" has caused feed issues in many guns, had a reputation for spotty expansion, and often insufficient penetration. But when it does expand, the expansion is very impressive. But a bullet needs to do a lot more than just expand. yeah well. a couple of years ago i tripped across at a lgs about ten unopened boxes of those flying ashtray's. I am still giggling. Oh, i have them in a sig and a couple other machines right now. I was born in the last century, work's for me.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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With all the BS about all cartridges are the same.
It makes you wonder if the big shots at the FBI have ever taken a Physics class?
whelennut I am not a hater, but the words used were "trauma doctors cannot tell the difference in gunshot wounds between 45,40,9. There is however another question that has not been asked nor answered...can coroners tell the difference?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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With all the BS about all cartridges are the same.
It makes you wonder if the big shots at the FBI have ever taken a Physics class?
whelennut I am not a hater, but the words used were "trauma doctors cannot tell the difference in gunshot wounds between 45,40,9. There is however another question that has not been asked nor answered...can coroners tell the difference? Or could the perp feel the difference, of course he would have to be a repeat receiver.
Trump Won!
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I think the theory of whether or not the human animal can tell the difference, should be easily tested on captured ISIS members. Let's get a bunch of .45acp ammo to the Kurds and have them do the testing and report back.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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I think the theory of whether or not the human animal can tell the difference, should be easily tested on captured ISIS members... We do not shoot prisoners. But it would seem a mistake to take any. For every 1 of us they kill, kill 10 of them. Soon no more beheadings.
"There's more to optics than meets the eye."--anon
"...most of us would be better off losing half a pound around the waist than half a pound on our rifle."--dhg
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I read a lot of Guns and Ammo magazines as a young man.
COL. JEFF COOPER probably is responsible.
If you look at the 200 gr Speer "Flying Ashtray" loads it is hard to carry anything else.
whelennut Correct: They have made great improvements in bullets over the years. Really helped the 9mm perform better. But those same improvements went in to .45 bullets also. From hardcast to flying ashtrays, it is still better to start out at .451" Know your gun. Keep shooting it. .....and have a beer. Amen brother!
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According to my Statistics class you would need a sample of 100 people getting shot with each cartridge in order to have a valid sample. Less than that would not be meaningful.
Where can we find a few volunteers?
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Me
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With all the BS about all cartridges are the same.
It makes you wonder if the big shots at the FBI have ever taken a Physics class?
whelennut I am not a hater, but the words used were "trauma doctors cannot tell the difference in gunshot wounds between 45,40,9. There is however another question that has not been asked nor answered...can coroners tell the difference? Or could the perp feel the difference, of course he would have to be a repeat receiver. A friend of mine used to be a DEA agent, and he apparently got into a LOT of gunfights. He always wore a vest, and got hit on several occasions (he also apparently never learned to duck or hide). He said that they ALL hurt, but some hurt a LOT worse than others. He really didn't like getting hit with the .357 and .45ACP. I have no reason to doubt him, he's got the scars to prove his lack of ducking abilities, but he carried a .45 whenever he could, and still does. He's lived to laugh and joke about it, but wishes he'd learned to duck.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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According to my Statistics class you would need a sample of 100 people getting shot with each cartridge in order to have a valid sample. Less than that would not be meaningful.
Where can we find a few volunteers?
whelennut You'd need 100 people shot in the same exact spot to be statistically meaningful. That's what makes terminal ballistics such a challenge, there is a vast array of where people can be hit between instantly incapacitating shots to those that are not life threatening and fringe hits in between that you simply can't accurately correlate the effectiveness of various rounds. I'm pretty sure you put a bullet between C1 and C7 and severe the spinal cord and it doesn't matter if you used a 22 or a 500. Put a shot somewhere in the abdomen and you're playing bad buy roulette. There are times when I like having a 45, and times when I like having a 9, sometimes a 357 finds it's way along and most of all I like having the ability to choose what I carry. I've never subscribed to the belief that if you pack a big bore all you have to do is hit them, neither do I believe if you have a 17 round magazine you'll eventually put one where it matters. You have to make your shots count no matter what you're shooting.
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So the cheaper cost factor of 9mm is mitigated somewhat by the requirement of 9mm needing to use premium bonded hollow point ammo, usually in +p or +p+ format to help level and narrow the play field. The vast vast majority of 9mm shooting is done with "range ammo," which is cheap. Few use premium stuff for that. It's in training that one enjoys the ammo discount vs .45 ACP. The Real Hawkeye, Yes, I understand that vast majority will practice with cheap 115gr fmj ammo. Then use the premium 124+p, etc for self defense. But then don't you run into the same criticism when police practice with 38spec then use 357mag load for their duty loads (back when they carried revolvers)?
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Yes, I understand that vast majority will practice with cheap 115gr fmj ammo. Then use the premium 124+p, etc for self defense. But then don't you run into the same criticism when police practice with 38spec then use 357mag load for their duty loads (back when they carried revolvers)?
The difference in felt recoil between .357 Magnum and .38 Special (particularly if target wadcutters are used) is worlds greater than that between 9mm range ammo and standard pressure self defense ammo.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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With all the BS about all cartridges are the same.
It makes you wonder if the big shots at the FBI have ever taken a Physics class?
whelennut I am not a hater, but the words used were "trauma doctors cannot tell the difference in gunshot wounds between 45,40,9. There is however another question that has not been asked nor answered...can coroners tell the difference? Or could the perp feel the difference, of course he would have to be a repeat receiver. A friend of mine used to be a DEA agent, and he apparently got into a LOT of gunfights. He always wore a vest, and got hit on several occasions (he also apparently never learned to duck or hide). He said that they ALL hurt, but some hurt a LOT worse than others. He really didn't like getting hit with the .357 and .45ACP. I have no reason to doubt him, he's got the scars to prove his lack of ducking abilities, but he carried a .45 whenever he could, and still does. He's lived to laugh and joke about it, but wishes he'd learned to duck. You bet, red bricks to golf balls, I can see it.
Trump Won!
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Yes, I understand that vast majority will practice with cheap 115gr fmj ammo. Then use the premium 124+p, etc for self defense. But then don't you run into the same criticism when police practice with 38spec then use 357mag load for their duty loads (back when they carried revolvers)?
The difference in felt recoil between .357 Magnum and .38 Special (particularly if target wadcutters are used) is worlds greater than that between 9mm range ammo and standard pressure self defense ammo. I have a problem with this statement. How fast do you load your .357 "Target" wadcutters? Hint: You load them to the same velocity as your .38 wadcutters. It may take .2 to .4grs. more of the same powder to do that. That is just because of the increased case capacity. Another hint: Between 750 and 850 fps max. Semi wadcutters are a different story.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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I was speaking of .38 Special target wadcutters. Back in the day, cops routinely shot these at the range, often provided for them. As suggested by the other poster, this was later frowned upon, and for good reason. The difference is extreme between felt recoil of these and .357 Magnum loads.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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One should carry and practice with the same Ammo if not point of aim and point of impact may not match
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Back in the day?
Years ago over six million S&W M&P and Model 10's were produced. These guns, being fixed sighted, were regulated for the 158gr SWCHP .38 Special. This is famously called "The FBI Load" or "Chicago Load" or "The Police Load".
The Chief's special was also. The Detective special was too.
They then shot (after 1962 and not barrel marked until later) +P loads (or Hi-VEL). They still shoot very close to point of aim with the +P load.
We ain't talking 50 yard Bullseye shooting here.
If we were, we would get back to talking about the 1911 again.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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I was speaking of .38 Special target wadcutters. Back in the day, cops routinely shot these at the range, often provided for them. As suggested by the other poster, this was later frowned upon, and for good reason. The difference is extreme between felt recoil of these and .357 Magnum loads. By 1980 bigger metro departments were qualifying with what they carried on duty.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Campfire Sage
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I was speaking of .38 Special target wadcutters. Back in the day, cops routinely shot these at the range, often provided for them. As suggested by the other poster, this was later frowned upon, and for good reason. The difference is extreme between felt recoil of these and .357 Magnum loads. By 1980 bigger metro departments were qualifying with what they carried on duty. By then things had already changed. It was this change, by the way, that found the flaws in the S&W K-Frame .357 Magnums, which were never intended to consume a regular diet of Magnums. The idea was to practice with .38 Special, and even carry defensive loads in .38, but also be equipped with Magnums in case a situation called for it, such as a road block.
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I was speaking of .38 Special target wadcutters. Back in the day, cops routinely shot these at the range, often provided for them. As suggested by the other poster, this was later frowned upon, and for good reason. The difference is extreme between felt recoil of these and .357 Magnum loads. By 1980 bigger metro departments were qualifying with what they carried on duty. By then things had already changed. It was this change, by the way, that found the flaws in the S&W K-Frame .357 Magnums, which were never intended to consume a regular diet of Magnums. The idea was to practice with .38 Special, and even carry defensive loads in .38, but also be equipped with Magnums in case a situation called for it, such as a road block. Split forcing cones, and cracked frames at the barrel threads on the underside where the crane sat. Even departments that used .38 Special +P's would eventually crack frames if they were shot enough. Colt had the same issue with +P's. The K frame was perfect for .38 Special and you can even say that for .38 Special +P, but it really is marginal for .357 magnum. They really should be shot about 80/20 special/magnum. Still, warts and all the M19 is one of my favorite handguns of all time.
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Still, warts and all the M19 is one of my favorite handguns of all time. Sure. That and the 13.
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I was speaking of .38 Special target wadcutters. Back in the day, cops routinely shot these at the range, often provided for them. As suggested by the other poster, this was later frowned upon, and for good reason. The difference is extreme between felt recoil of these and .357 Magnum loads. By 1980 bigger metro departments were qualifying with what they carried on duty. By then things had already changed. It was this change, by the way, that found the flaws in the S&W K-Frame .357 Magnums, which were never intended to consume a regular diet of Magnums. The idea was to practice with .38 Special, and even carry defensive loads in .38, but also be equipped with Magnums in case a situation called for it, such as a road block. Split forcing cones, and cracked frames at the barrel threads on the underside where the crane sat. Even departments that used .38 Special +P's would eventually crack frames if they were shot enough. Colt had the same issue with +P's. The K frame was perfect for .38 Special and you can even say that for .38 Special +P, but it really is marginal for .357 magnum. They really should be shot about 80/20 special/magnum. Still, warts and all the M19 is one of my favorite handguns of all time. So, are you guys saying it took from 1957 to 1980 to find "flaws" with the Model 19? You are getting your cause and effect all messed up. Funny how the cracked forcing cones started showing up at the same time the hot 125gr Magnum loads showed up. While S&W suggested a mix of .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads to reduce wear and tear on the Model 19, the forcing cone problem is not caused by normal 158gr .357 Magnum ammo. Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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So, are you guys saying it took from 1957 to 1980 to find "flaws" with the Model 19? You are getting your cause and effect all messed up. Funny how the cracked forcing cones started showing up at the same time the hot 125gr Magnum loads showed up. While S&W suggested a mix of .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads to reduce wear and tear on the Model 19, the forcing cone problem is not caused by normal 158gr .357 Magnum ammo.
Don
You're correct. The main culprit in the forcing cone problem was indeed the 125 grain round, not the original 158 grainers.
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yep, used within design parameters. I've got one and like it a lot. I don't believe I've ever fired Magnums from it, though.
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yes there is.....
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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. Funny how the cracked forcing cones started showing up at the same time the hot 125gr Magnum loads showed up. While S&W suggested a mix of .38 Special and .357 Magnum loads to reduce wear and tear on the Model 19, the forcing cone problem is not caused by normal 158gr .357 Magnum ammo.
Don
Spot on! Could not agree more.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yep, used within design parameters. I've got one and like it a lot. I don't believe I've ever fired Magnums from it, though. I shoot nothing but 158 grain magnums in my model 19's and I love them
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yes there is..... Uh, we're talking about the Smith and Wesson Model 19, not the Glock Model 19. Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yes there is..... Uh, we're talking about the Smith and Wesson Model 19, not the Glock Model 19. Don I know that stupid
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yes there is..... NO! Clark
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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True that about those .357 125gr loads.
There is a lot of powder in those .357 125gr loads. Early factory .357 ammunition was a lot hotter than it is now.Winchester sold more .357 ammunition than anyone else. The Winchester Small Pistol Magnum primers are very hot. Since they all used their ball powders. In the older loading manuals, they would state- "if using the Win SPM primer, reduce your loads by 10%" at least. Which is a good idea with changing any primer, but they called out the Winchester SP magnum primer by name.
Primers burn a lot hotter than powder. The cylinder gap in revolvers introduced O2 to the burning of the load. There you have it.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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There's nothing wrong with the Model 19 period.
Ever.
Travis Yes there is..... NO! Clark YES!!!!
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Well, I prefer the .45 ACP...just because. Last handgun purchase, I went to buy a Glock 43 for everyday carry and came home with a Springfield XDS in .45 ACP. It just seemed better for what I think that I need.
Ben
Some days it takes most of the day for me to do practically nothing...
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I was speaking of .38 Special target wadcutters. Back in the day, cops routinely shot these at the range, often provided for them. As suggested by the other poster, this was later frowned upon, and for good reason. The difference is extreme between felt recoil of these and .357 Magnum loads. By 1980 bigger metro departments were qualifying with what they carried on duty. By then things had already changed. It was this change, by the way, that found the flaws in the S&W K-Frame .357 Magnums, which were never intended to consume a regular diet of Magnums. The idea was to practice with .38 Special, and even carry defensive loads in .38, but also be equipped with Magnums in case a situation called for it, such as a road block. Split forcing cones, and cracked frames at the barrel threads on the underside where the crane sat. Even departments that used .38 Special +P's would eventually crack frames if they were shot enough. Colt had the same issue with +P's. The K frame was perfect for .38 Special and you can even say that for .38 Special +P, but it really is marginal for .357 magnum. They really should be shot about 80/20 special/magnum. Still, warts and all the M19 is one of my favorite handguns of all time. I have more than one of these. The first one was acquired in the mid 70's and i have fired thousands the good Lord only knows 38special out or it. In all that time maybe one box of 357magnum, and those were 158grain. Gun is still tight as a drum.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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I'll put this set of magnas right into your yambag! Clark
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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I'll put this set of magnas right into your yambag! Clark There are problems with magnas too Dave....
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Not for people that can shoot.
Dave
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Not for people that can shoot.
Dave Yes, there is.... Come on I figured even a Texas could get this
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Texan fuggin auto correct Melvin
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Not for people that who can shoot.
Dave Just trying to be fair.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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stupidest thing I ever did was sell a nice blue steel 2.5 inch barrel IIRC model 19 in the 80's...I kick myself for that, I would buy it back today for 1.5 times the money.
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stupidest thing I ever did was sell a nice blue steel 2.5 inch barrel IIRC model 19 in the 80's...I kick myself for that, I would buy it back today for 1.5 times the money. Understand, Jimmy. Maybe that's why I've got 3 of the 2.5 inch barrel Model 19's, and they ain't going anywhere without me. Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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stupidest thing I ever did was sell a nice blue steel 2.5 inch barrel IIRC model 19 in the 80's...I kick myself for that, I would buy it back today for 1.5 times the money. Understand, Jimmy. Maybe that's why I've got 3 of the 2.5 inch barrel Model 19's, and they ain't going anywhere without me. Don You need to put it in your will that you want to be buried with them.
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stupidest thing I ever did was sell a nice blue steel 2.5 inch barrel IIRC model 19 in the 80's...I kick myself for that, I would buy it back today for 1.5 times the money. Understand, Jimmy. Maybe that's why I've got 3 of the 2.5 inch barrel Model 19's, and they ain't going anywhere without me. Don You need to put it in your will that you want to be buried with them. Interesting! That puts a whole new spin on "from my cold, dead hands". Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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stupidest thing I ever did was sell a nice blue steel 2.5 inch barrel IIRC model 19 in the 80's...I kick myself for that, I would buy it back today for 1.5 times the money. Understand, Jimmy. Maybe that's why I've got 3 of the 2.5 inch barrel Model 19's, and they ain't going anywhere without me. Don I don't miss my 2.5" 19 at all. Never really cared for it much. Used and carried my 3" model 60 way more, and shoot it better too.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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stupidest thing I ever did was sell a nice blue steel 2.5 inch barrel IIRC model 19 in the 80's...I kick myself for that, I would buy it back today for 1.5 times the money. Understand, Jimmy. Maybe that's why I've got 3 of the 2.5 inch barrel Model 19's, and they ain't going anywhere without me. Don I don't miss my 2.5" 19 at all. Never really cared for it much. Used and carried my 3" model 60 way more, and shoot it better too. To each their own. Don
NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
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Didn't they invent the 9mm so GIRLS could have something to shoot?
I'd rather die in a BAD gunfight than a GOOD nursing home.
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Didn't they invent the 9mm so GIRLS could have something to shoot? That and Europeans, which it seems is pretty much the same thing.
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the short barreled 45's are not sending the bullets too fast, I wonder if the 9mm is better in a short barrel gun?
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You are a laugh a minute Jimmy
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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the short barreled 45's are not sending the bullets too fast, I wonder if the 9mm is better in a short barrel gun? Probably. Crossman and Daisy say long barrels shoot faster.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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You are a laugh a minute Jimmy I keep the crowds attention😄 Also bought a 3.3 inch barreled 45 today.
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I've been considering a G30s and ran across a video of ballistic testing of the 230 HST from that less than 4" barrel. That's a nasty bullet, pretty impressive.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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You are a laugh a minute Jimmy I keep the crowds attention😄 Also bought a 3.3 inch barreled 45 today. OK, give it up. What'd you get?
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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45 shield no safety model, shot it 150 times more accurate than my G43.
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I haven't handled one yet but I sure like the MP45C. Glad that one is working out for you.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Good choice on the 45 Shield - I'm really liking mine so far...
Last edited by JGray; 09/29/16.
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it surprised me in the accuracy department and the recoil department.
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I've only shot factory Hornady 185 XTP'S in mine thus far - I was pleasantly surprised at the accuracy and how easy the pistol is to control - not near the handful I was expecting. I also have a M&P 45 Compact and the Shield 45 is not any harder to shoot well.
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Wasn't a pistolero growing up'til the Marines taught me to shoot a 1911. Never stopped shooting them and carrying them.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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One thing I have seen mentioned over and over again in the resurgence of popularity of the 9mm is now with the great high-tech bullets available it equals the incapacitaion ability of rounds like the .357 Magnum and .45 ACP.
That may be the case but what happens when one can not obtain ones perfect designer ammo...and in the recent past that has happened.
From what I have read and seen in studying gunfights over the last 40 years is rounds over .40 need both less expansion or velocity to be effective. Calibers .35 and under depend much more on velocity and expansion to get the same level of performance.
I usually carry .35 caliber rounds for self-defense but much prefer a round that has a muzzle velocity over 1300 fps to get the needed bullet expansion and penetration. When I carry a .41+ caliber gun 950-1200 seems to work just fine... .40/10mm usually 1200+- depending on the bullet weigh...
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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In subcompacts, I have the XD Mod 2, 3.3 with a 9+1 flush mag and the XD-S with a 5+1 flush mag capacity. I also have 3 1911s representing all three commercial sizes, but with steel frames and the associated weight. ![[Linked Image]](http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f46/DanChamberlain/IMG_0984_zps3248qnc9.jpg) For me, the choice is simply related to which cartridge moves the pendulum the farthest when the bullet strikes. Everything else is theoretical.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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I haven't handled one yet but I sure like the MP45C. Glad that one is working out for you. I said that and then turned around & bought a copshop trade in M&P40c. The Missus has one too and this is about typical for 5 shots, standing/unsupported at 25 yards. This was 40/165/HST and I didn't suffer a broken bone or internal bleeding from apocalyptic recoil. Actually these little guns are real soft shooting for a small 40. ![[Linked Image]](http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x187/SargeMO/2016-10-07%2015.25.40_zpssuqt7fut.jpg)
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Nice shooting, the compact guns these days are accurate and very useful.
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Thanks Jimmy. I've fooled with compact Glocks, 1911s and now Smiths. I've found them all to be more accurate than they're typically given credit for.
Most people just bang away with them at 7-15 yards and if most shots land in the big middle of a silhouette, they're happy. In all honesty, it's what they are designed for.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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I'm really enjoying my M&P 45 compact that I've had for just over a month. I've been carrying an M&P 9c with 147 HSTs in it. I've had a hankering for a 45c for some time and I found one for the right price at a gun show. Very pleasantly surprised about the recoil of the 45 in a compact pistol. Shoots everything I put in it with no problems. I won't be getting rid of my 9; my wife thoroughly enjoys shooting it; but it won't be seeing very much time on my hip. I have some PMC Bronze 185 grn hp ammo that the 45c loves and that's what will be in the magazine when its on my hip.
Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
John 8:32
A lie doesn't become truth; wrong doesn't become right; evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by the majority...Rick Warren
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Glad I finally tried a shield!
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I like a .45 in a full sized gun, like a steel 1911 or a Glock 21. It's OK in a compact lightweight, but with those you detract from the advantages of the .45 ACP by increased recoil, interfering with follow up shots a bit.
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Way too much ecumenism here for a proper campfire 45 versus 9 argument. No, they are not all the same, they are not all just as good. That is an FBI fairy tale for fairies, told so that the girl agents and those transitioning to be girl agents who had trouble with big bores could feel equal to the men agents when they waved their 9's around. LE agencies all over the country jumped on this for the same reason and civilian trainers now parrot the foolishness to swell their class enrollments with scores of the fairer sex. And now it has attained some kind of ballistic truthness even though everybody and their dog knows that big holes let more stuff out than small holes.
So there.
Last edited by 5thShock; 10/08/16.
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Not sure where all this talk of girls being unable to handle the .45 came from. My 15 year old daughter runs her Colt very well. Of course, she can shoot a 12 gauge with the best of them but she has never been told that she couldn't do it. Too many people believe they cannot instead of believing they can.
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You should rent the 45 shield, I would have thought the same as you do before I shot it. With 230 grain FMJ ammo the recoil is similar to my Kimber Covert commander length gun. For hiking I intend to carry this over my G43 as it is more accurate.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,449 |
You should rent the 45 shield, I would have thought the same as you do before I shot it. With 230 grain FMJ ammo the recoil is similar to my Kimber Covert commander length gun. For hiking I intend to carry this over my G43 as it is more accurate. Hits harder on bears and such, too.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,422
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,422 |
Personal experience, plain and simple. I carried a 1911A1 a long time ago in and out of harm's way in far away lands and when it was needed it worked.
While I own and carry several different handguns in various chambering's there will always be 45ACP guns in the mix for me.
YMMV
StarchedCover
Semper Fi
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,677
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,677 |
IMO the 45ACP's popularity is as much about the 1911 Govt. model's tradition and design as anything else. The ergonomics and weight make it easier to shoot a heavier bullet accurately, fast if necessary and the pistol has over a hundred years of American history behind it.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
I like the cartridge better than the 1911, despite the gadzillions of rounds someone fired through their personal 1911 with no failures of any type after it was submerged in concrete for 10 years of course, some of the more modern platforms are rumored to be somewhat more reliable.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,677
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,677 |
Just giving my opinion re the 45ACP's continuing popularity.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,161
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,161 |
I posted a pic awhile back of 147 gr +P 9mm HST's and 124 +P Gold dots shot through 3 water jugs, they were picture perfect and I said I would try the 230 HST's +p's of course. I also shot a Federal 9mm hollow point, an older LE contract bullet, catalog number xm9001. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/TOM64/8CA74F37-D511-4325-ABE6-A7460EE3A49C_zpstikftlse.jpg) [/URL] I like em both but tend to favor the 9mm The 9mm HST and GD for those that missed it. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/TOM64/85D912F5-D696-48D0-B03D-589D6E9B7BFD_zpsh6uild6p.jpg) [/URL]
Last edited by TWR; 10/10/16.
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,300 |
that is a very good example of a very good bullet, thanks for posting that again. In the G43 I carry the 147 HST. If only someone could invent a CCW pistol that shot a 150 grain bullet at 3000 FPS that right there would be the game changer. At 1000 FPS or there about's one might not be mistaken to consider "bullet choice" and hitting the target as more important. As a new 45 shield owner with its 3.3 inch barrel I wonder if 700FPS is enough to even open a hollow point! I like the 45 as the sharpness of its report is a bit less but then I have more 9mm's as they are cheaper to practice with and there are very good loads for them now, but then everybody knows that the 45 ACP is inherently more accurate...
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,161
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,161 |
In the 4" m&p, the 230 HST's clocked 890 fps, went through 3 water jugs and came out the size of a quarter. I wouldn't dismiss the 45 in a Shield at all.
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