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What's everyone's thoughts? I know TSXs work best with speed and this 62 grain .224" was launched by the relatively slow vanilla .223 into a buck mule deer at around 80 yards...did it fail or not? ![[Linked Image]](http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t292/inmanta/IMG_1315.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t292/inmanta/IMG_1317.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t292/inmanta/IMG_1318.jpg) This is only the 3rd animal I have killed with a mono...and I have been less than impressed so far, though I have yet to launch them at warp speed into an animal. It's too early to come to a hard conclusion, but my confidence is getting lower and lower. This deer also has some extreme bloodshot, which doesn't jive with the "eat right up to the hole" mantra that is common here. I may just go back to cup n' cores.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Depends on a person's definition of failure. Dead is dead but yeah - I'd probably like a bit more of a mushroom than that.
What's weird to me is
1. The tail end of the bullet looks like it was crushed in a vise
2. The bullet over all looks just bent to one side but that might be a shadow thing.
Almost looks like it was tumbling when it entered the deer. Wonder if it struck something brushy before the deer? No keyholing in the target upon sight in I supose...
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T Inman;
Good evening to you sir, I trust this finds you well and congratulations on that nice buck too by the way.
Between our girls and I, we've taken somewhere between 15-20 mulie or whitetail bucks with monometal bullets - TSX, TTSX and GMX.
The smallest/lightest we've used has been the 80gr TTSX in a .250AI.
So sometime back another member here put up a photo of a TSX that didn't open up either - for the life of me I didn't think it was a .223 though.
I also want to say that John Barsness mentioned he's seen some "odd" things with the smaller diameter all copper hollow points - but that the acetyl tip equipped ones open up fine.
As far as yours being a failure - well even though yours did kill the buck, it's opened up a tad less than I'd like to see for sure.
Lastly we've found that typically the wound channel with a mono-metal bullet is longer and narrower than a cup and core and that they work best when major bones get broken either on entry or exit.
Depending upon the rate of twist or initial velocity there's surely just as much "surface jello" as we'd see with a cup and core - but less blood shot meat in the heavier muscle - usually.
Anyway I'm not sure that was any help or not sir - but again congratulations on a grand muley buck.
All the best to you this fall and good luck on your remaining hunts too.
Dwayne
Last edited by BC30cal; 09/21/16.
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"
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It tumbled for some reason and hit something pretty hard to dent the base like that. You have the appropriate twist to stabilize those 62 gr?
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Campfire Ranger
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Depends on a person's definition of failure. Dead is dead but yeah - I'd probably like a bit more of a mushroom than that.
What's weird to me is
1. The tail end of the bullet looks like it was crushed in a vise
2. The bullet over all looks just bent to one side but that might be a shadow thing.
Almost looks like it was tumbling when it entered the deer. Wonder if it struck something brushy before the deer? No keyholing in the target upon sight in I supose... It is bent to one side...for sure. I suppose it could have hit a branch I didn't see and tumbled, but then why did it begin to open up like normal? To me that would indicate that it hit the deer like it should have...then maybe hit a bone at a weird angle to deform the base. This bullet is doing good past 500 yards too, with nice round holes in the target so it for sure is stabilizing.
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T Inman;
Good evening to you sir, I trust this finds you well and congratulations on that nice buck too by the way.
Between our girls and I, we've taken somewhere between 15-20 mulie or whitetail bucks with monometal bullets - TSX, TTSX and GMX.
The smallest/lightest we've used has been the 80gr TTSX in a .250AI.
So sometime back another member here put up a photo of a TSX that didn't open up either - for the life of me I didn't think it was a .223 though.
I also want to say that John Barsness mentioned he's seen some "odd" things with the smaller diameter all copper hollow points - but that the acetyl tip equipped ones open up fine.
As far as yours being a failure - well even though yours did kill the buck, it's opened up a tad less than I'd like to see for sure.
Lastly we've found that typically the wound channel with a mono-metal bullet is longer and narrower than a cup and core and that they work best when major bones get broken either on entry or exit.
Depending upon the rate of twist or initial velocity there's surely just as much "surface jello" as we'd see with a cup and core - but less blood shot meat in the heavier muscle - usually.
Anyway I'm not sure that was any help or not sir - but again congratulations on a grand muley buck.
All the best to you this fall and good luck on your remaining hunts too.
Dwayne Dwayne, your posts are always helpful. The surface jello was bad, and I had to toss some meat that I would have preferred not to. This is a small sample for sure, but my confidence in them is pretty low. I can't say for sure, but I believe this is the first bullet I put into the buck based on how he reacted at the first shot...so I do not believe the bullet killed the deer. Unless I hit a hidden branch (which is a possibility) causing it to tumble despite beginning to open up like it should, I would call this bullet a complete failure. Thanks for the congrats though. Good luck to you and your daughters too.
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It tumbled for some reason and hit something pretty hard to dent the base like that. You have the appropriate twist to stabilize those 62 gr? 1/9 twist, holding sub MOA out past 500 yards. I killed a nice pronghorn last week at 552 yards with this same setup. It worked as well as I could have hoped, which makes 1 out of 3 TSX kills of mine satisfactory to me.
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Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again!
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I honestly don't know...It's 1/2 gain below pressure signs, and way above max from several sources so I would guess 3000 FPS? Maybe a little more?
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Dead is Dead
My 223 AI is pushing 62gr TSX at 3284 fps/ave , via 22" barrel.
I recovered one from a coyote shot chest to tail. It was picture perfect.
TB, CWD and Covid-19 , free so far.....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sure doesn't look to me like it gave the expansion expected. If thats all its got at 80 yards,what would it have at 300-500 where velocity has fallen off?
Looks to me like it tumbled which will change everything. I sometimes wonder if they are annealed as they should be; or if the copper is the right stuff when we see something like this.
More velocity and maybe even more twist might help.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Tumbling is a lot more common than many people believe and often happens inside an animal. But that bullet failed to open well - obviously. I guess some people will give a hard bullet a pass when it doesn't open much, if at all. I find that rather odd. Saying the animal is dead so the bullet worked is kind of like saying you made a good shot on the elk because you killed it with a 22 LR bullet to the femoral artery.
That isn't unusual performance from a solid copper projectile. It's undoubtedly the biggest reason for the addition of plastic tips to these bullets.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Thanks everyone...I am thinking (but am unsure) that since the bullet did start to expand properly, that bone or whatever else didn't pinch the tip closed...and that the bullet tumbled after it hit the animal.
Please don't assume dead is dead, because I hit that buck twice. He definitely reacted to the first shot, obviously hit in the shoulder area as he took a couple steps forward. He then stood there long enough for me to put a second one in him, then tumbled downhill a fraction of a second later.
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I don't fall into the dead is dead camp relative to bullet failure. That bullet is designed to open up more than it did at its impact velocity. In that regard it failed. You mentioned earlier that you didn't have confidence in the bullet. Don't use it. Confidence counts. The 60 grain Partition gets the job done. You'll be confident in it. It'll give you adequate hunting accuracy.
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In my opinion the bullet failed but the buck graciously died anyway. It looks to me like the bullet may have tumbled which would have helped create a larger wound channel.
By 'failed' I mean it didn't perform as I would want it to, but this has been a fairly common complaint with the old X and newer TSX bullets of various calibers and weights - and the reason I don't use them.
The tipped TTSX and its predecessor the MRX have never given anyone I hunt with reason to complain. We've never recovered one and most animals we've shot with them have gone straight down.
Confidence in the TTSX version is high enough that Daughter #1 will be hunting elk with them in a few weeks (.308 Win and 130g TTSX).
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 09/21/16.
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Some thoughts that may/may not be relevant:
If the bullet tumbled, which from its appearance seems likely, I would anticipate that the nose cavity would still open as shown just due to the hollow point and scored nose.
Had the bullet not tumbled, I would anticipate it would have passed through the animal at 80 yards with as little expansion as is present- unless the shot was frontal and the bullet ended up in the pelvis.
The follow up shot(s) were also Barnes bullets presumably? Did you recover those, and if so did they expand properly? If those bullets went un recovered, maybe those also did not expand but passed through.
I have no dog in the fight either way, I am ambivalent on the subject of Barnes bullets- If I could get my rifles to shoot Partitions well, I would not consider using Barnes, however I have found the Barnes product substantially more accurate than Partions in the few rifles I have tried both in.
If you can't be a good example, may you at least serve as a dreadful warning
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The tipped TTSX and its predecessor the MRX have never given anyone I hunt with reason to complain. We've never recovered one and most animals we've shot with them have gone straight down. A buddy of mine has a 168 TTSX (or 165) he recovered from a bull shot at 60 yards with a .308. It looks almost new, minus the tip. He hit it in the heart. I wouldn't call it bullet failure, but the following year he was shooting Partitions. The 130 is a much better choice in a .308.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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It tumbled for some reason and hit something pretty hard to dent the base like that. You have the appropriate twist to stabilize those 62 gr? 1/9 twist, holding sub MOA out past 500 yards. I killed a nice pronghorn last week at 552 yards with this same setup. It worked as well as I could have hoped, which makes 1 out of 3 TSX kills of mine satisfactory to me. Interesting. As noted, something else went on that did not allow expansion.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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I'm one of the biggest proponents of "dead is dead" with regard to bullets. Bullets that do not perform as they are designed/intended could constitute a "failure" for argument's sake though, but that would open the proverbial bullet application can of worms too.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The tipped TTSX and its predecessor the MRX have never given anyone I hunt with reason to complain. We've never recovered one and most animals we've shot with them have gone straight down. A buddy of mine has a 168 TTSX (or 165) he recovered from a bull shot at 60 yards with a .308. It looks almost new, minus the tip. He hit it in the heart. I wouldn't call it bullet failure, but the following year he was shooting Partitions. The 130 is a much better choice in a .308. I had always heard - go a weight class lighter than you would normally for caliber with the TSX type bullet. For instance - if you would normally shoot a 140 grain in your 7-08, drop down to the 120 TTSX or 150 .308 instead of 180. Dunno why.
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