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Hi Folks:

I want to thank John Barsness for his latest exclusive article for the Campfire, SHORT AND LONG ACTIONS, which you can find on the homepage.

As usual, it is my pleasure, and I am proud that he is around.

Thanks John!

rb


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Excellent article John.


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Very nice article.


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Great article. Common sense at work.

For years I built 300 Win Mags, 7 Rem Mags,300 Weatherby's and (most recently) a 7mm Mashburn Super on "long" actions with H&H length boxes to accommodate better and more versatile bullet seating with long high BC bullets.....even before the current trend of high BC bullets.

Things just fit better when they have some leg room.

The short action business never made much sense to me. After a bunch of standard and WSM rifles, I am not enchanted with them.

John is , as usual, correct on bolt manipulation as well.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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enjoyable read--thanks

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Yep, nice read.


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Thanks, guys!


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Great read and very informative. Thank you for sharing the article.

Was Sako one of the first companies that made a true short action for sporting arms? I thought I read someplace that Browning was using their short action before they they made their own.


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Looks like Winchester was ahead of the curve with a 9 pound long action 22 Hornet.


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I always like reading John's stuff. Thanks Rick and John. BTW when I had my .257R built, I used a "short" Winchester action which allows me to seat bullets to 3"or so. I don't like "stuffing" cartridges in short actions either.

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Sakoluvr,

Sako started making the L42 action during WWII, for a small 7mm hunting cartridge based on the 9mm Parabellum, which after the war became the L46 and, eventually, L461 actions. But those were for really small rounds like the .222 Remington.

Sako's early rifles chambered for big game cartridges were built on FN Mauser actions in the 1950's. Eventually they started making their own short action for cartridges like the .243 and .308, but it was a number of years after Remington introduced the 722.


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Good deal. Thanks again John.


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From one John to another, it was a great article. However, I've solved my long action / short action dilemma. 1885 high, or low wall, Ruger No.1 and yes even an Encore, or two.


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So is a Model 700 30-06 considered a short action then for McMillan Stock purposes?



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John Boy,

Yeah, single-shots solve a lot of magazine-length problems--the reason I have a Ruger No. 1 .22 Hornet and Merkel K1 .308 Winchester, among others....


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A Merkel is on the list. While Mausers are a favorite, there's nothing quite like a single shot, be it a. 22 rimfire, or something chambered in an old British round.


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What do you think the percentage is of game that's killed well within the confines of the benefits of higher BC bullets?

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That would depend at least partly on exactly what you're trying to ask. Do you mean at ranges shorter than higher BC bullets have an advantage, or where higher BC have an advantage? "Within the confines" could mean either.

In either case, it would depend on the game, terrain, typical conditions, capabilities of the shooter, etc.


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At ranges before a BC advantage. I've seen it written that most game is taken within 200 yards. I don't know if that's a regional thing or nation wide.

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I would say it's a world-wide thing. My big game hunting notes from the past 40 years are from more than a dozen countries, and include not just the animals I've taken but those of companions. A few years ago I broke down the ranges where animals had been taken, and right around 90% were at 200 yards or less. I need to include the last few years sometime, but doubt that figure would change significantly.


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Late to understand what Ruger was doing, I just bought a Ruger 77 Hawkeye Compact Magnum in 338 RCM.

It has a 13" LOP and 20" barrel. It fits and swings naturally.

To say that I love it is an understatement!

It fits a niche for sure as a woods/stalking rifle.

The RCM cartridge and the overall length of the rifle make a great combo for woods hunting and I am sure that can be stretched out to moderate distances.

I don't need a high BC bullet and can't see any reason to compare it to 338 win mag velocity.
So what if it doesn't match the 338 WM.
This combo carries itself and speaks for itself as is.

To bad Ruger discontinued it. I am thinking of getting the 300 RCM in a No 1....or another 77.

I'm getting back into open sights for big game hunting and this rifle is a good fit.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/168.htm







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The 338 RCM was one of the neatest Ruger rifles ever. Perfect bolt rifle for the woods.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Yeah, Bob, I'm thrilled to have connected to one in a classic wood/blue.

I expect great things from it and I wouldn't hesitate to take to Alaska.

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If I lived where I needed that kind of horsepower and bullet weight I'd own one. smile

Alaska,BC, Alberta comes to mind. Everything from moose to whitetails and bears. I thought the rifle was very cool, well designed and well thought out.

Makes me wish I still had my 200-225 gr grin Bitterroots!




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I would say it's a world-wide thing. My big game hunting notes from the past 40 years are from more than a dozen countries, and include not just the animals I've taken but those of companions. A few years ago I broke down the ranges where animals had been taken, and right around 90% were at 200 yards or less. I need to include the last few years sometime, but doubt that figure would change significantly.



That's what I figured. I never understood why folks want to get hung up on a BC number when most never see the advantage of it. I don't even worry about distance to the lands. The Accubonds and Partitions that I shoot don't seem to care, either. I just load my Model Seven 7 SAUM to a COAL of 2.80" and let it ride. Lol


Thanks for the info.

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SU35,

Yep, the .338 RCM is one of the best-designed short-action cartridges ever developed. Instead of trying to cram as much powder room as possible into the available space, they actually designed a short .338-06 (or maybe .338-06 AI), with dufficient neck length avoid the potential bullet-seating problems with some of the other SFBM's (Short, Fat, Beltless, Magnums). The moderate ballistics also result in moderate recoil in a compact rifle.

I handloaded a .338 RCM for an assignment a couple-three years ago and was pretty impressed. But it didn't take the hunting world by storm, apparently because there aren't that many hunters who really need (or even want) that particular combination of virtues. Which is pretty much true of most cartridges that somehow end up being categorized as "woods" or "timber" cartridges, just because they're not super-zappers.



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N2TRKYS,

Yeah, a lot of hunters get hung up on numbers. Muzzle velocity was the biggie for a while, but these days BC is getting up there too. In reality, neither is a major factor for MOST big game hunting.

But they can be for some kinds of hunting, but even then some people obsess too much about one or the other. One of my upcoming columns (recently submitted) is about the balance between velocity and BC for longer-range shooting, and how to figure out where the balance point might be for certain kinds of hunting.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
N2TRKYS,

Yeah, a lot of hunters get hung up on numbers. Muzzle velocity was the biggie for a while, but these days BC is getting up there too. In reality, neither is a major factor for MOST big game hunting.

But they can be for some kinds of hunting, but even then some people obsess too much about one or the other. One of my upcoming columns (recently submitted) is about the balance between velocity and BC for longer-range shooting, and how to figure out where the balance point might be for certain kinds of hunting.



I look forward to reading it. Thanks for what you do.

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I would be interested in this article as well, please advise what publication and issue it will be in.

Thanks.


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It's going to be posted here on the Campfire, like this one.


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I enjoyed the article!


Is this a typo?

"But the magazine would not allow longer, high-BC bullets to be seated well out, and while I could have installed a longer magazine box, I'd test-fired too many short-action rifles with longer magazines for short-fat cartridges that didn't feel very well."

I was thinking it should read "feed very well" since that's my experience.



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Yep, that was a typo--and you figured it out!


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Quote
One of my upcoming columns (recently submitted) is about the balance between velocity and BC for longer-range shooting, and how to figure out where the balance point might be for certain kinds of hunting.


I've long pondered that one and that article is one I look forward to!


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I remember one article John did years ago on efficient cartridges. .257 Roberts was one of the best. I like a sectional density of around .246 give or take a little, and a muzzle velocity of around 2700fps. That combination will take pretty much any game I'd ever desire to take.


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Good read John....

thanks as always....

best regards to you and the family...

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Duly noted gents. We'll call that article next. November.

Thanks!


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Great article. I mostly own short actions but I also mostly own moderate velocity cartridges based on the 308 (7-08, 308, 338 Federal). Those fit excellent. My 257R and 350 Rem mag can be a little tight but a vast majority of those bullets have ogives that work fine with short actions. None of those cartridges are trying to be barn burners in a short action. You make an excellent point about some of the short magnums trying to squeeze so much velocity out of a short action. If I want a magnum, I'd go long action for sure.


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John, I'm curious, do you have the same high opinion of the .300 RCM that you do of the .338?


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Haven't fooled with the .300 RCM, but no doubt it works well. But since we already have the .30-06 available in many lightweight rifles there isn't as much point in it as the .338 RCM.


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Thank you, sir.


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You're welcome!

Of course, the other side of all this is there apparently isn't much more demand for the .338 RCM than there was for .338-06's when first A-Square and Weatherby offered .338-06 factory rifles--probably because both .33's are sort of "tweener" rounds, not offering the sort of long-range ballistics many shooters want these days, or the bullet weight and caliber of even larger rounds. No doubt some of this is due to advances in bullet construction, making heavier bullets less necessary for deep penetration.

All .33 caliber rifle cartridges, whether British or American, were essentially a product of cup-and-core bullets. A .33 bullet weighing 250-300 grains at moderate velocities penetrated deeper and more reliably than 180-grain cup-and-cores from .300 magnums. But with today's bullets we don't really need to use a 250+ grain bullet to ensure performance on heavier game.


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Actually, my interest is drawn more to the handy carbines that both RCM's are offered in, I suspect they would be similar to the Remington 600 I had long ago and really liked. Plus I can still find the RCM in a port-side was my only real complaint with the 600. .338 would be nice, but as some fairly practical scribe has pointed out, I probably could kill anything I'll ever want with a 180 or 200 gr Partition from the .300.

Or I could buy an RAR Compact, but that would be just too practical.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.


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Originally Posted by SU35
Quote
One of my upcoming columns (recently submitted) is about the balance between velocity and BC for longer-range shooting, and how to figure out where the balance point might be for certain kinds of hunting.


I've long pondered that one and that article is one I look forward to!





I, also, enjoyed the current article and look forward to the next one. We are fortunate to have so much of JB on these forums.


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I love the REALLY short ones like the L46, CZ527, Zastava M85 etc. With a compact round like the 6.5 Grendel, 222 Rem etc they're a lot of fun!

Keen to lay hands on a Howa Mini for the same reason.

No huge fan of long actions but there's no substitute for cubic inches of course.

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The Brno ZKW 465 is very good too, but it's essentially an earlier, more refined version of the CZ 527. One of its nice features is the .22 Hornet magazine is a little longer than the 527's, just enough to use plastic-tipped 40-grain bullets, which ups the downrange performance of the Hornet considerably.

However, actions like the 527, L46, etc., might actually be classified as "miniature" actions, rather than shortened versions of larger actions--the situation with the Remington 721 and 722, and the way most manufacturers of medium to big game rifles work these days, with two lengths of the same action.

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Hey I've not had a 465 so I'll keep an eye out for one. Another one for the list!

I had a lovely L46, but regrettably it had been rebarreled to 223 Rem hich meant you could only load 50g HPs at the most. No matter, it was beautiful.

I was going to hang onto it and rebarrel to 17 Ackley or similar, but a mate took a shine to it and I gave it away...

Yes I DO regret it!

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The ZKW 465's I've seen, including mine, have double-set triggers and nice iron sights with multiple-leaf rears. Mine's a typical sporter with a Schnabel forend tip, but have seen a couple with full-length Mannlicher-style stocks. They take the same scope rings as CZ 527's with just a slight amount of modification. Pretty nifty little rifles, but you don't see them in the U.S. very often.


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Very good read!

I've probably owned over a dozen 600/660 Remingtons and I liked the short over-all rifles, in the day, when they were new. I'm down to one - a 350 RM. I wish that It was a little longer but it works fine as is. I still have a few short action Remington 700's, 722, 783 and a 7.
Almost all my new bolt action rifles have been longer actions, including Winchesters, Mausers, a Tikka, a Ruger or two and others.
The main issue I have with the short bolt actions (and lever actions) is not having the ability to chase the leade. Short magazine length limits seating depth, which to me is the biggest short coming.
I've noticed that many if not most of my long action rifle barrels are getting such that I load the bullets out further for accuracy (I don't want to re-barrel). The long actions are more forgiving and as a side benefit I think easier to get cartridges to feed.

In 50+ years of hunting I can count on one hand shots I've made on game over 200 yards. (Antelope and White Tail) I don't plan on doing it again. Shooting at long range at game animals is as foreign to me as voting Democrat and just as enjoyable.





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Really interesting read, JB. Looking forward to the next article!


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John can the enfield 30-06 be re barreled to take the new 6.5x300 weatherby cartridge?

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I would bet it can, since many 1917 action have been used to make .375 H&H's, as well as rifles for other longer rounds. The other Weatherby rounds based on the .300 Wby. case all have overall cartridge lengths similar to the .375 H&H.


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The 722 and 721 eventually became the short- and long-action Remington 700's, but the long action is much longer than required for the .30-06. Instead it was designed to handle "long magnums," initially the .300 H&H but eventually the .375 H&H, .300 Weatherby"

So if I understand correctly, my Remington 700 .270 can be rebarreled to 6.5-300 Weatherby or 26 Nosler?


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It's too bad this article doesn't cover which LAs can safely fire 308WIN rounds. There seems to be a surge of interest in this topic.


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cdb,

Should be able to do exactly that. There'll probably be a little tweaking needed to get the 26 Nosler to feed perfectly, but not so much with the 6.5-.300 Wby.


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Thanks John.


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Thanks for a very informative article!

I'd like to add why I have become a big short action fan. Bolt throw. Not for the 0.2 seconds it saves me, but because I can keep my cheek weld throughout. I can empty the magazine with my eyes planted behind the scope the whole time. Hunting deer in hardwoods, it is nice to be able to immediately cycle another round while keeping my eyes on the fleeing deer. If an accurate follow up shot is needed, I'm on target.

Add to this the often lower recoil, more efficient cases of many short action cartridges and often lighter weight. There is nothing good hand loads in a short action can't do on this continent.


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Quick follow up shots are the reason semi autos exist....
Fleeing deer around here in the woods are too fast for a follow up shot, except for the ones the hide behind the trees.....


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I disagree. Have done it with a short bolt action. Works just as fast as a semi-auto. There's a second of recoil and re-training your sight picture no matter what you shoot. In that time, I have the boot cycled and my eyes are on target, same as my AR15 and AR10. Considering the weight of an AR10 and the fact that AR15-223!is illegal for deer in most states, I'll take my 1/2 MOA, 7.5# bolt action every time. I have no interest in the old semi's like the 7600, etc. my next choice would be a Marlin or Savage lever action.


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I just don't know if I'd believe anyone who lives near Houston....😎😎😎


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Making rocket science of what it isn't. Really?


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Nah, if if it was supposed to resemble rocket science, I'd have to include some formulas, but even then try to avoid 'em. :-)


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Thanks for the great article and interesting comments. I'm far from an expert and amazed at the wealth of info here on 24hrs.

Dave

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Very nice article. It stitches together much of what I have read over the years. Thank you for writing it.

As for the short action vs long action--like the differences between "formal china" and "everyday china"--I did not care until I got married. For me, useful cartridges started at .30-06 and went up from there. Big boys shot big rifles chambered in big cartridges.

Post-nuptuals I learned to care, as my wife was not built to shoot your average 7.5lb & 14" LOP sporting rifle from Rem/Win/Rug in .30-06.

Nowadays I give every rifle the gimlet eye:
1. Can it be chambered in shorter cartridges and is it short action?
2. About 38" OAL or less and is it or can it easily be had in 12.5" LOP?
3. About 6lbs or less?
4. Oh, and left-handed bolt action?

Yeah, tough set of requirements. And thank Mauser and Remington for short actions.


Regards,

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More power to those who use a LA, they have it even if they don't need it, and even if it's overkill.


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MD,

Honest question, how many animals have you killed with a LA that could not have been taken with a SA?

GB

PS - I have never hunted Eland, but other than dangerous game, this is probably the only animal I would be nervous about shooting with a 7-08,308. And I ain't no pot stirrer, but really, I've seen big elk taken efficiently with a 708 at over 400 yds, so I don't see how most could ever choose a LA over a SA cartridge.


Last edited by bludog; 03/15/17.

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Does anyone know if a 22-250 bolt action will work with a 270 round ? I bought a gunsmith's estate & am trying to assemble some long guns out of the parts I have found so far.A little over my head here & would like some help.

Thanks Ron

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Quote


I'd like to add why I have become a big short action fan. Bolt throw. Not for the 0.2 seconds it saves me, but because I can keep my cheek weld throughout. I can empty the magazine with my eyes planted behind the scope the whole time. Hunting deer in hardwoods, it is nice to be able to immediately cycle another round while keeping my eyes on the fleeing deer. If an accurate follow up shot is needed, I'm on target.

Add to this the often lower recoil, more efficient cases of many short action cartridges and often lighter weight. There is nothing good hand loads in a short action can't do on this continent.


This whole myth that a short action is faster or better is based on a personal preference not real life experiences. Dangerous game is shot with long cartridges and 2 world wars were fought with long actions and I doubt a short action would have changed the outcome a bit.

Thank goodness for the internet, so we can find out so much worthless trivia to base our daily decisions on. Push feed being inferior to controlled round feed is another myth. If it was true, you would think there would be cemeteries all over the dark continent with dead hunters that were killed because their push feed guns choked.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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True. Think of how many hunters deaths have been caused by using single shot actions like those horrible little Ruger rifles, or worse yet those 1885 Winchesters.....


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Have beeen stuck on stupid so long now it seems like home to me ! lol

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Have beeen stuck on stupid so long now it seems like home to me ! lol

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It may take me untill summer to figure out how this site works

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Originally Posted by old_Ron65
Does anyone know if a 22-250 bolt action will work with a 270 round ? I bought a gunsmith's estate & am trying to assemble some long guns out of the parts I have found so far.A little over my head here & would like some help.

Thanks Ron


Nope, but there have been 270 length actions that have been converted to shoot 22-250.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Thanks , so how can I tell a 270 bolt form a 22-250 bolt ?

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The problem I'm haveing is that I have 3 remington actions (1 long & 2 short ) with a selection of stocks & barrels. Matching them up is tough ,all the barrels fit the 700 actions but some are 270 & some are 22-250. It was easier to assemble my last 2 that was a winchester 1890 22 pump & the knickerbocker double . I stared out small & am working my way up to the 700 remington bench guns.

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Originally Posted by old_Ron65
Thanks , so how can I tell a 270 bolt form a 22-250 bolt ?

.22-250 in a factory gun will be SA, the bolt is shorter than a LA.

As posted, you can build a .22-250 on a LA, not sure how it would feed. I have a .257R on a M-700 LA, feeds as slick as any gun I have, but it was put together by a master smith, Ron Lampert, MN.

.22-250 works best on a SA, 2.8" box mag, .270 needs a full 3.4" LA box mag.

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May need to go back to the pile of old guns & learn more about the 700 s before I start the building. Also would you finish the stocks before you would glass the beds? ( not where the action & barrel goes ) I can sand & put a finish on ! lol

Ron

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Originally Posted by old_Ron65
May need to go back to the pile of old guns & learn more about the 700 s before I start the building. Also would you finish the stocks before you would glass the beds? ( not where the action & barrel goes ) I can sand & put a finish on ! lol

Ron

Glass'em then finish'em.

DF

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