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I've owned four, including the two Hawkeyes I've got now. I've not had a single functional issue with any of them, not one.

I wouldn't pick one for a high-end custom, or to base a bench gun on, but for a reliable hunting rifle, they're hard to beat.


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Originally Posted by cra1948
Originally Posted by sidepass
Not that difficult to understand. All starts as soup. Some is cast as bar stock some is cast as something specific. All the same.


Not really true. Yes, it all comes from the furnace as molten steel, but bar stock is not "cast as bar stock..." Bar stock is rolled which results in aligning and refining the grain structure.


What happens to the aligned and refined grain structure when you normalize it and then heat treat it?

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Originally Posted by rgrx1276
TRW made the best M14 of all time. Receiver was cast if I remember correctly.


TRW receivers were forged.

Forging parts was the common state-of-the-art and a reliable way to manufacture and reduce machining considering the technology available at the time...it was 60 years ago.


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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
It's difficult to discuss something this complex in off the shelf , cryptic sound bites, and vague generalizations.

Example:
Quote
All things being equal, its the heat treat that makes the difference.


not at all sure just what you're trying to say,...

GTC




You're right, I should have clarified. I'm on the side of high carbon tool steels used in knife making where heat treat makes or breaks the final product and forging is used as another means of forming the steel vs stock removal, which unfortunately has a certain following that thinks the forging process produces a superior steel/grain structure strictly by virtue of pounding the steel.

My guess is you are coming from the low carbon structural steel side where cold forge/forging those steels has its positives not as evident in knife making.

This guy has a lay men's explanation for the basics in forging and heat treat http://www.cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html for knife steels but I think still has validity in general terms for basic steels in general.

It really does come down to the type of steel and what it is going to be used for as to whether or not forging has a place in the production of the product.


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I make a lot of odd things

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an unsuccessful try at making springs from Tungsten wire

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yes that's a pen point for scale


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Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
It's difficult to discuss something this complex in off the shelf , cryptic sound bites, and vague generalizations.

Example:
Quote
All things being equal, its the heat treat that makes the difference.


not at all sure just what you're trying to say,...

GTC




You're right, I should have clarified. I'm on the side of high carbon tool steels used in knife making where heat treat makes or breaks the final product and forging is used as another means of forming the steel vs stock removal, which unfortunately has a certain following that thinks the forging process produces a superior steel/grain structure strictly by virtue of pounding the steel.

My guess is you are coming from the low carbon structural steel side where cold forge/forging those steels has its positives not as evident in knife making.

This guy has a lay men's explanation for the basics in forging and heat treat http://www.cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html for knife steels but I think still has validity in general terms for basic steels in general.

It really does come down to the type of steel and what it is going to be used for as to whether or not forging has a place in the production of the product.


Has anyone passed the ABS journeyman 90 degree bend test with a knife made from one of the Carpenter wonder steels that have been shaped by grinding and with a proper heat treat?

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A really worthwhile book to have, if you are interested in this sort of stuff. I bought mine 30-odd years ago and still occasionally get it out.

Without rehashing a lot of what has been said, there are a range of methods of casting. Investment casting, especially as is done today, is a method which can give rise to very good dimensional control, very good finish with minimal need to machine and, with attention to design, excellent soundness, toughness and strength.

That element of design's important too: you can't usually take a design intended to be produced by forging and machining and replicate it as an investment casting without giving it some thought. Considerations such as how the metal will flow into the investment play a part, for example. Having taken these sorts of factors into account though, investment casting is more than capable of making a good tough and safe receiver. It is used in a range of applications where strength and toughness and reliability are key factors, including components for aircraft as well as firearms and a myriad of others.

FWIW my own experience includes experience in production of such things as shear blades, rock-drill bits, handcuffs, track plates for armoured vehicles and some others, and I've made, analysed, and tested - sometimes to destruction - a fair few investment castings. I don't happen to own a Ruger 77, but I wouldn't have any reservations about their strength or safety based on them having investment cast receivers.

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Originally Posted by Boogaloo
Originally Posted by rgrx1276
TRW made the best M14 of all time. Receiver was cast if I remember correctly.


TRW receivers were forged.

Forging parts was the common state-of-the-art and a reliable way to manufacture and reduce machining considering the technology available at the time...it was 60 years ago.


fwiw & afaik,
That is correct. TRW 8620 FORGED Receivers have life spans of 450,000 rounds plus... It says something that NO ONE has been able to even approach this level of quality or longevity given the age of CNC finish machining. LRB Receivers are known by those who build them to be borderline nightmare and Smith has been unable, or unwilling, to try and duplicate the small batch made during the 80s that is talked about in reverential tones. I want to say, again AFAIK, that they made something on the order of 200 of the original forged receivers and evidently have been unable to approach that product since. Oddly enough there was talk, and pictures of partially machine receivers, that said new SEI Receivers were just around the corner. Once again something bit and they have, afaik, been unable to deliver on the product. The LRB product CAN be made to run, however, any M-14 smith I have run into generally hates the receiver and says it requires FAR more work to get to function due to poor QC. Something Brown SHOULD have taken care of several years back...

It never fails to amaze me how people/companies go through such herculean efforts only to have final finishing from allowing the product from becoming in the industry standard. As much as it grates me I had to buy a double lugged Springfield Armory to send with my build and it never did live up to a proper forged receiver. Compare a WWII forged M1 Garand that has been shot in a bit to SA M1A that you can build into anything you want and frankly there is NO comparison. The old forged parts fit together like they grew together. The SA receivers clink and clank and completely lack that organic feeling...

All that being said find a better basis to build a .475 Linebaugh when it comes to strength. Ruger, for all intents an purposes, cannot be beat. Freedom Arms, for all of their incredible tolerance is ANOTHER cast frame and cylinder product. One that lacks the safety of the Ruger but I digress(referring to the 83). Love the 97s...

I still think Ruger 77s are a first rate tomato stake. The FEEL like complete junk that no amount of time on lathe or mill is going to correct. That is a personal opinion that no one asked for and by all means pay it no heed. I had a close friend bring back a 77 in 6.5 Creedmoor from the FTW Ranch while his group was visiting there for a little Long Range Rifle Practice. He was amazed to see, another long time friend, shoot this same particular rifle into three straight .250 MOA 3 shot groups that were on the shy side of the aspersion figure and shot with Hornady Factory Match Ammunition. Needless to say I am attempting to buy the rifle as a gag gun to irritate other friends at the range who are fellow rifle snobs. Nothing would be any sweeter than to outshoot them with a POS Ruger 77. If I did not know my friend to be an officer and a gentleman by natural selection, to say nothing of congress, I would have questioned that purchase. Might trade him a Navy Match Grade Mark II B Grade for that rifle in short order. Apologize for the digression...

Regards, Matt.

Btw, The NEW IN PAPER Brookfield Precision Mount that went on my rifle was worth twice what the Receiver would have ever cost. Should have kept the parts and sold the receiver. What a junker... Could not get my mind around buying a Polyptych, however, I have since been told it was the best I could have found at the time... Forged I might add.


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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
I make a lot of odd things

[Linked Image]

an unsuccessful try at making springs from Tungsten wire

[Linked Image]

yes that's a pen point for scale


That is impressive

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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Link: https://www.amazon.com/Materials-Processes-Manufacturing-Paul-DeGarmo/dp/047136679X Taught this curiculum once,...GTC 105 / GTC 206 at a local CC, included in their 2 years associate degree tech program.
I DON"T advise buying anything newer than the 8th edition,...they "reprinted" with many errors, and deletion of material that should have been kept .
Just a GREAT book to have around when a bunch of young'uns start asking questions
Chapters 13, through 19 were my favorites,...covering casting, forging, rolling, extruding, etc.
Can't recommend this book highly enough, for those who take interest in threads of this nature.
GTC


Greg, et al, ABE BOOKS has over 200 copies of this book in various editions for less than $10.00, some with free shipping;

LINK

Ed


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Well, it would be nice to have the latest, but OUCH (!) new textbooks are spendy. Guess the 11th focuses on the newer composites, and mfg. processes now in play therewith.

The Eighth had a foot in both worlds, so to speak, and was a bit weak on the cutting edge in composites

The ninth edition turned up with contradictory (and,to the students, extremely confusing illustrations regarding reading the vernier scale.) At the time this was a $150 book ! This is not on DeGarmo and his team, it's on the buffoons proof reading final drafts prior to running off a gazillion copies.

I actually had to generate the "paste in" revision / correction and hand em' out, on my own dime.

Critiques aside, I'l advise ANYBODY who enjoys threads of this nature, regarding ANY of the broad strata of materials we use and consume daily,... if you own this book, and have it handy, you WILL find yourself pulling it off the shelf on a regular basis.
Those who find this sorta' material boring, but who have kids that show interest in it should have a copy,...

GTC


Last edited by crossfireoops; 09/30/16.

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I'll just say I've never even heard of Ruger cast receiver failing.


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Yes; you never hear about them failing, just the opposite they have a rep for ruggedness.

What makes their alloy and process so strong?


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No doubt they are rugged guns. They are also pretty damn crude IMO and that's why they sell forless than something like a model 700 or a model 70.

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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Originally Posted by SBTCO
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
It's difficult to discuss something this complex in off the shelf , cryptic sound bites, and vague generalizations.

Example:
Quote
All things being equal, its the heat treat that makes the difference.


not at all sure just what you're trying to say,...

GTC




You're right, I should have clarified. I'm on the side of high carbon tool steels used in knife making where heat treat makes or breaks the final product and forging is used as another means of forming the steel vs stock removal, which unfortunately has a certain following that thinks the forging process produces a superior steel/grain structure strictly by virtue of pounding the steel.

My guess is you are coming from the low carbon structural steel side where cold forge/forging those steels has its positives not as evident in knife making.

This guy has a lay men's explanation for the basics in forging and heat treat http://www.cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html for knife steels but I think still has validity in general terms for basic steels in general.

It really does come down to the type of steel and what it is going to be used for as to whether or not forging has a place in the production of the product.


Has anyone passed the ABS journeyman 90 degree bend test with a knife made from one of the Carpenter wonder steels that have been shaped by grinding and with a proper heat treat?


Many of the so-called "wonder steels" are not a good choice to forge in the traditional manner because of the complexity of the materials involved as well as the critical temps needed for proper heat treat and temper, not to mention hitting the right temp.( usually by eye) during forging.

It should also be mentioned that the ABS testing for journeymans cert. has more to do with proving temp. control over different areas of the steel and how it is applied in the forge, than building a knife that can be bent into a 90 deg. without breaking. As I recall small cracking in the bend is even allowed as long as it doesn't migrate past a certain point. Besides, a bent knife is a bent knife. It is now in a weakened state and straightening it out only adds to the issue.

The advantages of forging knives are in the artistic nature of the process, the ability to blend different steels together for the patterns visible after etching(the so-called Damascus steel look)and taking advantage of the strengths of two different steels and blending them into one blade, such as O1 for its edge holding and L6 for its toughness and tensile strength. Best of both worlds and looks beautiful too. However, if the forger is also heat treating in the forge as opposed to a computer controlled heat treat oven, he/she better have an accurate eye and know their steel, because if they don't hit their numbers spot on, the steel will not be hardened to its full potential and produce and inferior product.

Stock removal gives you a much larger pallet of steels to choose from, and with less complexity in the building process, since in most cases the steel comes to the knife maker in a clean, precision ground and pre-forged state from the foundry. With the use of a proper heat treat oven the stock removal maker can hit the required temp. numbers with extreme accuracy and bring out the best in the steel with superior control over that from a forge.




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Quote
the so-called Damascus steel look


Ya' know, I can't remember ever seeing a true Damascus Steel rifle action, though I have seen some mouth watering accoutrements in that form,....usually WAY out in the higher $$$ realm.

You here to discuss RIFLE ACTIONS, or sell knives ?

Would really like to drift back towards the subject at hand.

I've read some WEIRD text regarding Pine Tree castings using 30-40 % "scrap".

When an extremely well equipped team of Metalurgists choose to dope their crucibles with ALREADY certified, Mil-specced "scrap", I say let them run. Torsion bars offa' tanks, barrels and breechblocks, Rockwell Eaton Gears, Landing gear components off Davis Monthan...etc
....can't get to awful offended by the addition of such "scrap", me.

GTC

Last edited by crossfireoops; 10/02/16.

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Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Quote
the so-called Damascus steel look


Ya' know, I can't remember ever seeing a true Damascus Steel rifle action, though I have seen some mouth watering accoutrements in that form,....usually WAY out in the higher $$$ realm.

You here to discuss RIFLE ACTIONS, or sell knives ?

Would really like to drift back towards the subject at hand.

I've read some WEIRD text regarding Pine Tree castings using 30-40 % "scrap".

When an extremely well equipped team of Metalurgists choose to dope their crucibles with ALREADY certified, Mil-specced "scrap", I say let them run. Torsion bars offa' tanks, barrels and breechblocks, Rockwell Eaton Gears, Landing gear components off Davis Monthan...etc
....can't get to awful offended by the addition of such "scrap", me.

GTC


I'm not trying to sell anything, just responding to 458 Lott's assumption that forging was better than stock removal(machining) as it pertains to the process ie. forging steel vs. machining to "make" steel better, along the lines of the OP wondering how casting steel can be as good as forging or machining solid steel.



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As to the "scrap", if you know what it is, and fits the bill, who cares if its secondhand or not. Steel is Steel.


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Originally Posted by SBTCO
As to the "scrap", if you know what it is, and fits the bill, who cares if its secondhand or not. Steel is Steel.




Sure,...the way that the addition, or lack of one tenth of a tenth of one percent of an alloying element completely changes ternary and quartenary phase equilibrium diagrams is just kid stuff.

So's running those gas chromotography tests,....I hear they let the janitors do it for overtime.

whistle

GTC



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Originally Posted by Robert_White
So it is all about the "fine grain" ?

How much stress does the actual action endure in a bolt action rifle? The end of the barrel forms most of the actual chamber. The bolt lugs lock into the action so the force is mostly to shear off backwards?

Am I thinking rightly?

By contrast the Remington 700 is machined from billet? But the billet was hammer forged? To straighten the grain???


Model 700 actions are NOT machined from billets, but are made from heavy wall CM tubing.That is why there is sometimes anomalies in their dimensions. It is a major cost saving in labor as compared using billets.

Ruger is machining a lot more stuff now than they used too. 5 axis CNC machines have become more common place and it makes sense to machine rather than to cast.

As far as casting being strong or not, consider the turbine vanes for a jet engine. They are cast from single grain super alloys. Nothing else will hold up.


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