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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Ringman,

Phil has it right - one can not mass produce good hunting.

Sportsman should NOT defend things that draw thier ethics into question, when they do our entire value system becomes questionable.

Principles are not a vote, they are what we stand for...
Unlike candidates you can pick your principles...
don't confuse the two.

When I introduce people to the sport, "sportsmanship" is the most important thing they learn.

Regards,
Spot

You just don't get it. The antis don't care about any of your "ethics" or your friend's "ethics". They want to stop you and then take away your guns.


The anti's mean nothing--they are a tiny, tiny segment of people. Sport hunting is ENTIRELY dependent on the acceptance of non-hunters--they are the majority and the people who determine the future of sport hunting. You have to be able to distinguish between non hunters and anti hunters. And non hunters perception of sport hunting's ethics are indeed extremely important.

Casey


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Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Ringman,

Phil has it right - one can not mass produce good hunting.

Sportsman should NOT defend things that draw thier ethics into question, when they do our entire value system becomes questionable.

Principles are not a vote, they are what we stand for...
Unlike candidates you can pick your principles...
don't confuse the two.

When I introduce people to the sport, "sportsmanship" is the most important thing they learn.

Regards,
Spot

You just don't get it. The antis don't care about any of your "ethics" or your friend's "ethics". They want to stop you and then take away your guns.


Speaking of "don't get it", you have to be the poster child of that clan. Comparing "antis" and Bushnell scopes has left you uncredible and this is "UN" not "IN" credible.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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HitnRun,

Maybe you could be so kind as to tell me which hunters the antis respect.

As far as the upper end Bushnells, I realize you have not compared a lot of stuff side by side outside a store so your opinion really is irrelevant to those of us who have.


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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Ringman,

Phil has it right - one can not mass produce good hunting.

Sportsman should NOT defend things that draw thier ethics into question, when they do our entire value system becomes questionable.

Principles are not a vote, they are what we stand for...
Unlike candidates you can pick your principles...
don't confuse the two.

When I introduce people to the sport, "sportsmanship" is the most important thing they learn.

Regards,
Spot

You just don't get it. The antis don't care about any of your "ethics" or your friend's "ethics". They want to stop you and then take away your guns.


The anti's mean nothing--they are a tiny, tiny segment of people. Sport hunting is ENTIRELY dependent on the acceptance of non-hunters--they are the majority and the people who determine the future of sport hunting. You have to be able to distinguish between non hunters and anti hunters. And non hunters perception of sport hunting's ethics are indeed extremely important.

Casey


The antis are currently driving the bus. They are better at social media than hunters. They are winning the war. Look at Cecil.

I agree that we need to be concerned about the undecided or no current opinion, but our messaging is not resonating with them. The antis are doing a better job of messaging and fundraising. We need to do better.

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People (non-hunters) are surprised when I tell them we hunt elk on foot pack them out of public land on our backs or with a rented horse and do all the butchering ourselves. The fact that we eat elk instead of factory farm raised beef is appealing to younger people who like the idea of wild and organic. The amount of work and uncertain outcome isn't necessarily how they perceive hunting based on TV and news exposure.

The idea of lazy hunters with big checkbooks on ATV's shooting planted animals to stick a big head on a wall isn't just unpopular with the ethical hunting crowd. It diminishes our reputation with the general public and frankly isn't that good a choice vs. any number of guided hunting opportunities without farm raised game involved.

Not having the time to take 10 days or a week to hunt might mean you don't succeed on several hunts making success all the more enjoyable when it happens.

Might not be a fair analogy and I'm way out of date but to me it seems like a young single guy choosing to pay a prostitute rather than working to win the attention of a woman who might say no until she actually knows and likes him.

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This!^^

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Originally Posted by Ringman
HitnRun,

Maybe you could be so kind as to tell me which hunters the antis respect.



Ringman: You are correct--antis don't respect hunters and they want to put an end to hunting.


So what?



A wise man is frequently humbled.

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Originally Posted by specneeds
People (non-hunters) are surprised when I tell them we hunt elk on foot pack them out of public land on our backs or with a rented horse and do all the butchering ourselves. The fact that we eat elk instead of factory farm raised beef is appealing to younger people who like the idea of wild and organic. The amount of work and uncertain outcome isn't necessarily how they perceive hunting based on TV and news exposure.

The idea of lazy hunters with big checkbooks on ATV's shooting planted animals to stick a big head on a wall isn't just unpopular with the ethical hunting crowd. It diminishes our reputation with the general public and frankly isn't that good a choice vs. any number of guided hunting opportunities without farm raised game involved.

Not having the time to take 10 days or a week to hunt might mean you don't succeed on several hunts making success all the more enjoyable when it happens.

Might not be a fair analogy and I'm way out of date but to me it seems like a young single guy choosing to pay a prostitute rather than working to win the attention of a woman who might say no until she actually knows and likes him.


A most excellent post, it would be perfect and germane to the discussion, but with enough "poison pills" of inaccuracies and emotion, detracting from it's message.

Ethics are a lot like the SCOTUS definition of pornography as in "you'll know it when you see it", not to mention the very word "ethics" is I think often-times transposed with personal preferences.

As SLM astutely pointed out, to the stick and string bowhunter, those who used the compound or scope rifle are frowned upon (notice I did not say ethical). I would take the other view in that hunting with said bow and arrow significantly increases the chances to would and lose and animal, so personally I would not do it. Same for you "turret turning" long range aficionados, not to mention running down and treeing a cougar of a bear, then unceremoniously knocking him down from it's helpless perch. Same goes for varmint calls on coyotes or wolves.

As to the lazy/fat checkbook comment, it wreaks of another of the seven deadly sins, suffice to say I am not lazy nor is my checkbook that fat, but I am fortunate to be able to PAY for HUNTS given my limited time. As to the head on the wall comment, well there again it just paints all hunters who put a head on a wall in an unfair light. I will confess however, coming home empty handed SUCKS.

Lastly, I really enjoyed the prostitute analogy and one I can comment on smile . Like all hunting, I've done both, from hunting bear alone in the Maine wilderness, to deer and hogs here in the south, to the ultimate wilderness of Africa (with a PH of course) and on the female chase side, culminating in courting and marrying my lovely wife of 34 years.

But, I would not be honest to say , those of you that have not been to such paradises like Olongapo in the "PI" or Patya Beach in Thailand, let's just say you have no idea....


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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You're killing me Jorge, just killing me here......

But as a couple naval aviator officers around here like to say...

"Carry On".


Casey


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Why so sensitive?
Everyone that posts about livestock hunts gets ribbed, no matter the size of the pasture.




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Originally Posted by Backroads
Why so sensitive?
Everyone that posts about livestock hunts gets ribbed, no matter the size of the pasture.





And being long time 'fire members, I would have bet money Pugs and Jorge would have known that.......

Casey


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Originally Posted by Ringman
HitnRun,

Maybe you could be so kind as to tell me which hunters the antis respect.

As far as the upper end Bushnells, I realize you have not compared a lot of stuff side by side outside a store so your opinion really is irrelevant to those of us who have.


You have spent too much time in a monastery to really understand the real world. Worrying about "antis" gets you nothing but indigestion. Trying to convince anyone that is emotionally motivated with rational reasoning is as worthwhile as your Bushnell narrative.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Originally Posted by Backroads
Why so sensitive?
Everyone that posts about livestock hunts gets ribbed, no matter the size of the pasture.


+1. As someone willing to post unabashed opinions on turret turners and bowhunters, you should appreciate others' opinions on canned hunts.




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Some hunters agree with Jorge's bow hunter and long rang shooter examples.
Most everyone agrees canned hunts are not ethical. Thus includes Pope and Young, Boone and Crockett, etc.

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And FWIW some of my most memorable hunts were ones where I came home empty handed.

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Originally Posted by BWalker
And FWIW some of my most memorable hunts were ones where I came home empty handed.


You can say they were some of your most memorable hunts, but as far as hunting you failed if you were hunting with a legal tag. In psychology it might even be called "rationalizing".


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Plain and simple (yes this is a little tongue in cheek)

Some guys are all about the trophy, trophy car, trophy gun, trophy racks, and trophy wives.

Other guys are about becoming a skilled and responsible outdoorsman.

Now you can be both - but that's a fine line... and one typically wins out over the other.


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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by BWalker
And FWIW some of my most memorable hunts were ones where I came home empty handed.


You can say they were some of your most memorable hunts, but as far as hunting you failed if you were hunting with a legal tag. In psychology it might even be called "rationalizing".

I'm not a psychologist, however I think I distinction must be drawn seperating harvesting an animal and the hunt. Two seperate things.

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Originally Posted by Spotshooter
Plain and simple (yes this is a little tongue in cheek)

Some guys are all about the trophy, trophy car, trophy gun, trophy racks, and trophy wives.

Other guys are about becoming a skilled and responsible outdoorsman.

Now you can be both - but that's a fine line... and one typically wins out over the other.



You got me...on both counts... I'm very coordinated when it comes to walking (or flying)fine lines. In my old line of work it was sort of a job requirement for staying alive. Some, no many of you posited some very valid positions and then again some have not.

In the end, I'll stick to my SCOTUS and prostitute analogies, and of course my OWN personal opinion hunting by running down an animal with dogs until he is so exhausted he can't go on then blasting him out of a tree is not my view of hunting and of course, even worse are the 800 yard shooters. I am not saying it's unethical by any means, just not my idea of a hunt and to the usual suspects... DILIGAF? (rhetorical question).


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Originally Posted by Ringman
Originally Posted by BWalker
And FWIW some of my most memorable hunts were ones where I came home empty handed.


You can say they were some of your most memorable hunts, but as far as hunting you failed if you were hunting with a legal tag. In psychology it might even be called "rationalizing".


Again, your rationale continues to make you less and less credible. Stick with your Sunday sermons and work at the shelter.


Originally Posted by RJY66

I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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